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Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

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3 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

It did cost him, but he had no reason to expect that it would. If you would have a basket full of candy, and the only people around are bound hand to feet, would you stuff all your candy in your mouth at once, because you were afraid that someone would steal it? Renly had such an advantage, that it was virtually impossible for him to lose. Yes in hindsight it would've been much smarter to move faster, but he had no possible way to expect being killed by a shadow demon.

There is no indication that he didn't have a plan, or that his plan was stupid. He was making use of Tywin and Robb wearing each other out while he was taking care of Stannis. He wasn't wasting men on Tywin, because Robb was winning at the time, so he probably expected Robb to defeat Tywin (which was a reasonable expectation) thinning out Robb's army in the process. Even if Tywin won the same would be true for Tywin's army. Whichever was the case, he had time to deal with Stannis while those two were squabbling. That's smart, not stupid. He could've rushed more to get to KL sooner, but he would've had to deal with Stannis on the way anyway, and then.. shadowbaby. 

You seem to think that he should've expected it to be dangerous for him to deal or negotiate with Stannis himself, but the ONLY reason that it was dangerous for him, was a shadowbaby, that he couldn't possibly have foreseen. 

Renly probably wasn't the smartest player in the game, and he may have turned out to be a very stupid commander, but we'll never know, because he was killed before he had the chance to do anything stupid. What we do know was that he'd planned a pretty smart scheme, first with trying to set Robert up with Margaery, then marrying her himself, after Ned ruined his initial plan and got Robert killed, and gathering the largest army in the realm. That's all we know. We will never know if he'd make a smart commander, or whether his slow pace would've proved an advantage or not... had there not been a mf shadowbaby.

From any normal perspective, where shadowbabies aren't a thing that exists, it was Stannis who was doing an utterly foolish thing, besieging Storm's End with 5,000 men against 100,000+. Renly could not have possibly known that there could be such a thing as shadowbabies, and it was not like he placed his tent in the middle between the two armies, without any guards, and took a little nap wearing a Pikachu onesie, 5 minutes before the announced battle time.

I don't agree it would have been smarter to move faster. People seem to think Renly was taking ages to move. That's not how it was. His march would take max 2 months, since he was at Bitterbridge, halfway between Highgarden and KL, 1 month after he marches. If he moved full haste it would take him 18 days, so really he was just prolonging it by a month, that's hardly consequential. Might I add Robb declared himself 10 days after Renly did so it wouldn't have mattered if he moved quickly or not. And the Ironborn only begin harrying the coasts 3 months after Renly declares, by then he would already have taken the capital.

As you said it was a pretty effective strategy. His enemies were wearing each other down, and the capital was falling apart due to riots. If Renly moved faster Tywin would have more men to hit him in the rear and Robb also would have more men; which is bad for Renly since he wants him to submit to him, and the people might not be so desperate that they begin to break down the gates, like what happened in canon. 

GRRM pretty much lays it out when he has Tyrion saying he would do the same as Renly and Cersei saying she would have moved at full haste. Tyrion is much smarter and clearly the author's mouthpiece here. 

Renly dealing with Stannis himself is also not stupid. It has to do with image. People would whisper that he was too cowardly to face his brother, and Renly is all about appearances. 

Renly didn't suck at the game of thrones. His Margaery scheme had Robert's interest, and Varys and Pycelle's worriment, implying it might have worked. He offers Ned a 100 swords, his own friends, knights and lords, meaning he cultivated allies at the capital. And he wisely fled, understanding the Lannisters' ruthless natures and won over Reach lords like Tarly, Oakheart and Rowan and pulled together a solid power base. 

Edited by R2D

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I will put another name that I think is missing on this debate. Doran Martell.

His caution nature and half hearted support to Aerys during the rebellion might have caused the defeat at the tridend, and the consequence of his sister and nephews being killed.

On his internal affairs he failed to control his own brother, that pissed his strongest vassal, to make amends he foster his son away, but gets dumped by his wife. 

He also fails to control his heir, Arianne tries to get his attention in several ways, but he always ignores her, and he allianated her so much that she almost started a coup against him.

His great and masterfull plan that he reveals with a dramatic music, was supporting a mad beggar across the sea, without even telling the guy. The scheme fails before it even beggins, because he did not send a single mensage and the dude commited suicide by dothraki.

During the civil war he choose neither side, and allowed the faction that he hated the most remain on the throne.

Now his great diplomacy of sending his relatives away on missions that are not clear ended with his brother and son dead and Arianne also seems to be taking the idioticy ball and running for her doom.

Edited by Arthur Peres

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1 hour ago, R2D said:

I don't agree it would have been smarter to move faster. People seem to think Renly was taking ages to move. That's not how it was. His march would take max 2 months, since he was at Bitterbridge, halfway between Highgarden and KL, 1 month after he marches. If he moved full haste it would take him 18 days, so really he was just prolonging it by a month, that's hardly consequential. Might I add Robb declared himself 10 days after Renly did so it wouldn't have mattered if he moved quickly or not. And the Ironborn only begin harrying the coasts 3 months after Renly declares, by then he would already have taken the capital.

Yeah that was what I intended to say, that it was a strategic plan to move slowly, keeping all his men fresh, and waiting to see what would happen between Tywin and Robb. Whoever would win, would need time to regroup. If Tywin would send half his army to protect KL, Robb would certainly win (that was what was to be expected at that point anyway). Robb's army would defeat half of Tywin's army for him, costing him not one man.

Then, even with the other half of his Tywin's army in KL, Renly had enough provisions for a long long long siege. He was expecting Stannis to come to his senses and join him, and if not, he could easily beat those 5000 men, he could swat it like a fly.

The advantage of besieging KL would be not having 100,000 restless soldiers in an already crowded city, and not having to feed the small folk to prevent riots. He would feed them afterwards like Margaery cleverly did.

In hindsight it might seem smarter to first take KL, but that's only we because we know in hindsight that there would even be a shadowbaby. 

Quote

 

As you said it was a pretty effective strategy. His enemies were wearing each other down, and the capital was falling apart due to riots. If Renly moved faster Tywin would have more men to hit him in the rear and Robb also would have more men; which is bad for Renly since he wants him to submit to him, and the people might not be so desperate that they begin to break down the gates, like what happened in canon.

GRRM pretty much lays it out when he has Tyrion saying he would do the same as Renly and Cersei saying she would have moved at full haste. Tyrion is much smarter and clearly the author's mouthpiece here. 

 

Yeah I agree. Nothing Renly did was stupid. Catelyn was also wrong about him. She didn't understand the importance of keeping the men entertained while patiently waiting for the others to fight the war for them.

Cercei's comment also makes clear that his strategy worked in the sense that the looming threat of an immense, but slowly advancing army can be much more intimidating than quickly being taken by surprise.

It invites for the enemy to act rashly. Tywin obviously was too smart to make rash decisions, and it pissed Cercei of immensely, because she would've run straight into any trap layed out by Renly. Meanwhile Renly just say there enjoying his peach, waiting for the enemy to destroy itself. His army was big enough to afford him to take his sweet time. He didn't need to take KL before Tywin sent reinforcements, he could just wait and trap the reinforcements in the city and starve them out. And his army was too large to have in the city anyway, that would've become a huge HUGE problem.

Quote

Renly dealing with Stannis himself is also not stupid. It has to do with image. People would whisper that he was too cowardly to face his brother, and Renly is all about appearances. 

I agree, and there was literally nothing that would be threatening his life. Stannis couldn't and wouldn't kill him during their little chat, and anyone trying to enter his camp would be caught. He had his rainbow guard around him at all times. He was safe.

 

Quote

Renly didn't suck at the game of thrones. His Margaery scheme had Robert's interest, and Varys and Pycelle's worriment, implying it might have worked. He offers Ned a 100 swords, his own friends, knights and lords, meaning he cultivated allies at the capital. And he wisely fled, understanding the Lannisters' ruthless natures and won over Reach lords like Tarly, Oakheart and Rowan and pulled together a solid power base. 

Yeah I think it's a damn shame he was killed so early on. He obviously had too much of an advantage, but I would've liked him to have at least a fair chance to actually do something. I think it may be the most disappointing thing in the whole story. Had he massively screwed up, like Robb did with his marriage, there would at least have been some sort of 'justice' to it. This was just incredibly unfair. Renly did everything 'right'. It wasn't like he was blind to a looming threat (like ignoring rumours of dragons, and then having dragons burn your entire massive army or something). He was cheated out of his chance of giving kingship a shot, by a form of magic noone even knew existed. It still pisses me off. I have no problem with Stannis playing dirty or murdering his brother, I have a problem with Stannis playing dirty in a way that was only invented to enable him to play dirty, and appears not to serve any other function in the rest of the books. Renly deserved a better death than that. Something infuriating, but in a good way, like the Red Wedding.

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1 hour ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Yeah that was what I intended to say, that it was a strategic plan to move slowly, keeping all his men fresh, and waiting to see what would happen between Tywin and Robb. Whoever would win, would need time to regroup. If Tywin would send half his army to protect KL, Robb would certainly win (that was what was to be expected at that point anyway). Robb's army would defeat half of Tywin's army for him, costing him not one man.

Tywin was stuck in Harrenhall. If he moved to defend KL Robb could harrass his flanks and maybe that's what would have happened if Renly got to talk more with Catelyn. We know he asked when Robb was going to march on Harrenhall, so that he could keep Tywin busy.

1 hour ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Then, even with the other half of his Tywin's army in KL, Renly had enough provisions for a long long long siege. He was expecting Stannis to come to his senses and join him, and if not, he could easily beat those 5000 men, he could swat it like a fly.

The advantage of besieging KL would be not having 100,000 restless soldiers in an already crowded city, and not having to feed the small folk to prevent riots. He would feed them afterwards like Margaery cleverly did.

Thousands of men stuck inside, it would have been even more of a havoc than what happened in canon. People were fighting to get out of the city because of low morale, and that was with Stannis' 20,000, the psychological effect of Renly's huge army parked outside their gates would probably break them. As for the wildfire, it wouldn't be as potent since Renly would have no fleet, and would probably kill as many Kingslanders as Reach and Stormlands men. A long siege would probably not even be necessary, Stannis was almost able to take the Mud Gate despite his inferior numbers. And it wouldn't be a good idea imo, since the Ironborn are still a threat and they might raid the Reach while KL is being besieged.

1 hour ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

In hindsight it might seem smarter to first take KL, but that's only we because we know in hindsight that there would even be a shadowbaby. 

:agree:

1 hour ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Yeah I agree. Nothing Renly did was stupid. Catelyn was also wrong about him. She didn't understand the importance of keeping the men entertained while patiently waiting for the others to fight the war for them.

 

Hmm wouldn't say he made no mistakes, there was that tactical blunder of charging with the sun in their eyes against Stannis, but that's minor. Though without hindsight knowledge, I think Renly was right to honor the agreement made at dawn. Guest rights and envoy rights and oaths and such are taken very seriously, if Renly underhandedly killed his brother at night that might be seen something similar to oath breaking, something that's very important in Westeros. 

1 hour ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Yeah I think it's a damn shame he was killed so early on. He obviously had too much of an advantage, but I would've liked him to have at least a fair chance to actually do something. I think it may be the most disappointing thing in the whole story. Had he massively screwed up, like Robb did with his marriage, there would at least have been some sort of 'justice' to it. This was just incredibly unfair. Renly did everything 'right'. It wasn't like he was blind to a looming threat (like ignoring rumours of dragons, and then having dragons burn your entire massive army or something). He was cheated out of his chance of giving kingship a shot, by a form of magic noone even knew existed. It still pisses me off. I have no problem with Stannis playing dirty or murdering his brother, I have a problem with Stannis playing dirty in a way that was only invented to enable him to play dirty, and appears not to serve any other function in the rest of the books. Renly deserved a better death than that. Something infuriating, but in a good way, like the Red Wedding.

Well he was mostly a plot device, but I agree him going out so easily felt like cheating.

Edited by R2D

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On 10/20/2020 at 5:39 AM, Arthur Peres said:

No they wouldn't. Renly wasn't using gold cloaks but his own, Loras and Neds guards.

“My lord, I have thirty men in my personal guard, and other friends beside, knights and lords. Give me an hour, and I can put a hundred swords in your hand.”

My point is that the gold cloaks were loyal to Little Finger who was going to betray them anyways, those 100 men wouldnt have stood up to them. 

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10 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

My point is that the gold cloaks were loyal to Little Finger who was going to betray them anyways, those 100 men wouldnt have stood up to them. 

Renlys plan was to strike fast, and take the kids hostage. Littlefinger wouldn't even know Ned was going to make a move and he wasn't even around the Red Keep, therefore by the time he found out Renly and Ned would already have those kids in their custody and they could have pulled up the drawbridge, so the goldcloaks wouldn't be able to enter. After that Ned could send ravens to Robb/Stannis and Renly to his Stormlanders and Mace to help them out. They also aren't loyal to Littlefinger, they did what he asked because he bribed them.

Edited by R2D

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On 10/20/2020 at 4:41 AM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

It did cost him, but he had no reason to expect that it would. If you would have a basket full of candy, and the only people around are bound hand to feet, would you stuff all your candy in your mouth at once, because you were afraid that someone would steal it? Renly had such an advantage, that it was virtually impossible for him to lose. Yes in hindsight it would've been much smarter to move faster, but he had no possible way to expect being killed by a shadow demon.

There is no indication that he didn't have a plan, or that his plan was stupid. He was making use of Tywin and Robb wearing each other out while he was taking care of Stannis. He wasn't wasting men on Tywin, because Robb was winning at the time, so he probably expected Robb to defeat Tywin (which was a reasonable expectation) thinning out Robb's army in the process. Even if Tywin won the same would be true for Tywin's army. Whichever was the case, he had time to deal with Stannis while those two were squabbling. That's smart, not stupid. He could've rushed more to get to KL sooner, but he would've had to deal with Stannis on the way anyway, and then.. shadowbaby. 

You seem to think that he should've expected it to be dangerous for him to deal or negotiate with Stannis himself, but the ONLY reason that it was dangerous for him, was a shadowbaby, that he couldn't possibly have foreseen. 

Renly probably wasn't the smartest player in the game, and he may have turned out to be a very stupid commander, but we'll never know, because he was killed before he had the chance to do anything stupid. What we do know was that he'd planned a pretty smart scheme, first with trying to set Robert up with Margaery, then marrying her himself, after Ned ruined his initial plan and got Robert killed, and gathering the largest army in the realm. That's all we know. We will never know if he'd make a smart commander, or whether his slow pace would've proved an advantage or not... had there not been a mf shadowbaby.

From any normal perspective, where shadowbabies aren't a thing that exists, it was Stannis who was doing an utterly foolish thing, besieging Storm's End with 5,000 men against 100,000+. Renly could not have possibly known that there could be such a thing as shadowbabies, and it was not like he placed his tent in the middle between the two armies, without any guards, and took a little nap wearing a Pikachu onesie, 5 minutes before the announced battle time.

You are missing my point. 

Im not arguing danger, Im arguing strategy. There was no strategic reason for him fighting Stannis what so ever. He only did it because he viewed himself as unbeatable.  This is what made him stupid. 

Lets say Renly dies because Stannis has an archer on a cliff shoot him,  you get the same end result, but instead of arguing the magic ex machina, you  see it as someone calling for an obvious trap. 

So in short, in my opinion, Renly fell for an obvious trap when he shouldn't have even been paying attention to Stannis. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

You are missing my point. 

Im not arguing danger, Im arguing strategy. There was no strategic reason for him fighting Stannis what so ever. He only did it because he viewed himself as unbeatable.  This is what made him stupid. 

Lets say Renly dies because Stannis has an archer on a cliff shoot him,  you get the same end result, but instead of arguing the magic ex machina, you  see it as someone calling for an obvious trap. 

So in short, in my opinion, Renly fell for an obvious trap when he shouldn't have even been paying attention to Stannis. 

 

 

No he didn't do it because he was stupid, but because his political reputation would take a hit if he refused to fight his brother. Tarly also agreed with fighting Stannis, and he's known as a great soldier. An archer wouldn't be able to take him out, he was well protected at all times, Stannis' army was also so far away they looked like ants.

Edited by R2D

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2 minutes ago, R2D said:

No he didn't do it because he was stupid, but because his political reputation would take a hit if he refused to fight his brother.

 

Those men crowned him their king over his older brother and believe Kinslaying is one of the worst crimes. 

Stannis vs Renly does not have to happen. 

2 minutes ago, R2D said:

 

 

 

Tarly also agreed with fighting Stannis, and he's known as a great soldier.

 

He did, that doesnt make him right.  He specifically argues that Stannis is somehow going to gain as many men as Renly by the time fighting is done or that Renly is going to lose enough to make the numbers even. That wasnt going to happen.  And besides, Renly didnt have to beat the Lannisters as Tarly said, he just had to beat the City Watch of Kings Landing and kill Joffery, Tommen and Marcella. 

2 minutes ago, R2D said:

 

An archer wouldn't be able to take him out, he was well protected at all times, Stannis' army was also so far away they looked like ants.

You suspended disbelief for dragons, giants, krakens, ice spiders, White walkers and shadow babies, but you draw the line at the proposal of  a well hidden assassin ?????

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1 minute ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Those men crowned him their king over his older brother and believe Kinslaying is one of the worst crimes. 

Stannis vs Renly does not have to happen. 

He did, that doesnt make him right.  He specifically argues that Stannis is somehow going to gain as many men as Renly by the time fighting is done or that Renly is going to lose enough to make the numbers even. That wasnt going to happen.  And besides, Renly didnt have to beat the Lannisters as Tarly said, he just had to beat the City Watch of Kings Landing and kill Joffery, Tommen and Marcella. 

You suspended disbelief for dragons, giants, krakens, ice spiders, White walkers and shadow babies, but you draw the line at the proposal of  a well hidden assassin ?????

According to GRRM it would be a stretch to consider Renly a kinslayer if Stannis died in battle. If he won it would be an easy way to gain some respect and give his soldiers some glory.

If Renly didn't fight Stannis and take him out, its fully possible Robb chooses to back Stannis, or he can make further marriage alliances to win allies.

If Stannis didn't have a shadow baby, any assassin would be found out and killed, Renly had the Rainbow Guard protecting him at all times. 

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1 minute ago, R2D said:

According to GRRM it would be a stretch to consider Renly a kinslayer if Stannis died in battle. If he won it would be an easy way to gain some respect and give his soldiers some glory.

 

The point is the battle didnt have to happen, they crowned him king knowing full well Stannis was never going to bend the knee to his younger brother. 

Renly could have sent 10,000 men to Storms end when he took the Capital or he could have just took kings landing and then fought Stannis.

 

1 minute ago, R2D said:

If Renly didn't fight Stannis and take him out, its fully possible Robb chooses to back Stannis, or he can make further marriage alliances to win allies.

Possible and likely arent the same thing.  Robb had already made overtures to Renly which Stannis wouldnt have been ok with, mind you, Stannis' bigger problem with Robb would be him stealing the Riverlands and North. 


The point is Tarly gave bad advice, but the bigger point is he didnt need to fight Renly

1 minute ago, R2D said:

If Stannis didn't have a shadow baby, any assassin would be found out and killed, Renly had the Rainbow Guard protecting him at all times. 

Again,  you suspended disbelief for dragons, giants, krakens, ice spiders, White walkers and shadow babies, but you draw the line at the proposal of  a well hidden assassin being too crazy to believe????

Mind you, my point is not the assassin, but simply the fact that Renly going off course ultimately resulted in his death. 

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9 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

The point is the battle didnt have to happen, they crowned him king knowing full well Stannis was never going to bend the knee to his younger brother. 

Renly could have sent 10,000 men to Storms end when he took the Capital or he could have just took kings landing and then fought Stannis.

You keep ignoring the point about his image, Renly at that point has no victories, Stannis is a hardened battle commander, if Renly won the battle his popularity would rise as much as Tarly's did when he defeated Robert in the Rebellion.

9 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Possible and likely arent the same thing.  Robb had already made overtures to Renly which Stannis wouldnt have been ok with, mind you, Stannis' bigger problem with Robb would be him stealing the Riverlands and North. 

By then the incest could have come out, which could make Robb want to support Stannis and out aside his crown, which he didnt want anyway.

9 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Again,  you suspended disbelief for dragons, giants, krakens, ice spiders, White walkers and shadow babies, but you draw the line at the proposal of  a well hidden assassin being too crazy to believe????

Mind you, my point is not the assassin, but simply the fact that Renly going off course ultimately resulted in his death. 

You're using hindsight bias, if Stannis didn't use a shadow baby he could not have killed Renly. Any "well hidden assassin" would immediately stand out, and he wouldn't be able to get close enough to kill Renly, not with Loras and Brienne protecting him. We see this with the catspaw, it didn't work because he expected Bran to be alone but Catelyn was with him so he wasn't able to kill Bran. Besides any assassin would have to be sacrificing his own life to do it, since even if he stabbed Renly he would be caught.

Edited by R2D

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6 minutes ago, R2D said:

You keep ignoring the point about his image, Renly at that point has no victories, Stannis is a hardened battle commander, if Renly won the battle his popularity would rise as much as Tarly's did when he defeated Robert in the Rebellion.

Im not ignoring it, im saying it is irrelevant  , Again Renly was crowned with everything you said already being known. 

6 minutes ago, R2D said:

By then the incest could have come out, which could make Robb want to support Stannis and out aside his crown, which he didnt want anyway.

Robb didnt bend the knee to Stannis when that did happen in the books... and Renly was dead then , LOL

So no, in a scenario where both are alive and Renly is besieging King's Landing, Robb is not bending the knee to Stannis. 

6 minutes ago, R2D said:

You're using hindsight bias, if Stannis didn't use a shadow baby he could not have killed Renly. Any "well hidden assassin" would immediately stand out, and he wouldn't be able to get close enough to kill Renly, not with Loras and Brienne protecting him. We see this with the catspaw, it didn't work because he expected Bran to be alone but Catelyn was with him so he wasn't able to kill Bran. Besides any assassin would have to be sacrificing his own life to do it, since even if he stabbed Renly he would be caught.

My response to you on this is going to be the same every time. You have every right to believe the only possible way Renly dies in this story is if it is by shadow baby(which again, isnt actually my point), but if you are suspending disbelief in the first place, then you can absolutely grasp an assassin getting a lucky shot off with an arrow. 

 

How about I simplify this for you.  We are in an alternative universe where Renly dies because Melisandre gives an archer a magic arrow endowed with R'hllor's light, and this arrow cant miss and will always kill its target..  It kills Renly. That better , LOL

 

In that scenario, Renly still falls for a trap, and he still looks stupid for fighting stannis in the first place. 

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17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Im not ignoring it, im saying it is irrelevant  , Again Renly was crowned with everything you said already being known. 

Renly was leaving Stannis behind in Storms End, you never leave an enemy in the rear. Before then the threat of Stannis was not known, he was just in Dragonstone doing nothing the whole time just like he had been doing for a year. If Renly didn't respond to Stannis' siege, he would look look weak. Renly can't just move on King's Landing then expect Stannis to come to him, because he would not be responding to Stannis' challenge, and people would see it as him cowardly hiding behind  the walls of the city.

17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

So no, in a scenario where both are alive and Renly is besieging King's Landing, Robb is not bending the knee to Stannis. 

Renly doesn't know that, and if Robb had more sense he would have put aside his crown. Catelyn even says he would tell him to put aside his crown.

17 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

My response to you on this is going to be the same every time. You have every right to believe the only possible way Renly dies in this story is if it is by shadow baby(which again, isnt actually my point), but if you are suspending disbelief in the first place, then you can absolutely grasp an assassin getting a lucky shot off with an arrow. 

 

How about I simplify this for you.  We are in an alternative universe where Renly dies because Melisandre gives an archer a magic arrow endowed with R'hllor's light, and this arrow cant miss and will always kill its target..  It kills Renly. That better , LOL

 

In that scenario, Renly still falls for a trap, and he still looks stupid for fighting stannis in the first place. 

What a fallacy. Renly could only die through magic. People don't even think magic exists anymore.

Perhaps magic was once a mighty force in the world, but no longer. What little remains is no more than the wisp of smoke that lingers in the air after a great fire has burned out, and even that is fading. Valyria was the last ember, and Valyria is gone.

—Luwin to Bran Stark

Renly doesn't even have archers in his army. Meaning if one of Stannis' men sneaked into his army he would be immediately found out. Also the two camps are a long distance away from each other (as said Stannis' men looked like "mice" under Storm's End) so no could traverse that distance would immediately being seen by Renly's scouts and soldiers. 

Edited by R2D

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19 hours ago, R2D said:

Renly was leaving Stannis behind in Storms End, you never leave an enemy in the rear. Before then the threat of Stannis was not known, he was just in Dragonstone doing nothing the whole time just like he had been doing for a year. If Renly didn't respond to Stannis' siege, he would look look weak. Renly can't just move on King's Landing then expect Stannis to come to him, because he would not be responding to Stannis' challenge, and people would see it as him cowardly hiding behind  the walls of the city.

I already addressed this argument. 

 

 

19 hours ago, R2D said:

Renly doesn't know that, and if Robb had more sense he would have put aside his crown. Catelyn even says he would tell him to put aside his crown.

 

Renly did know that since Robb sent Cat to him and not stannis. 

 

19 hours ago, R2D said:

What a fallacy. Renly could only die through magic. People don't even think magic exists anymore.

Perhaps magic was once a mighty force in the world, but no longer. What little remains is no more than the wisp of smoke that lingers in the air after a great fire has burned out, and even that is fading. Valyria was the last ember, and Valyria is gone.

—Luwin to Bran Stark

Renly doesn't even have archers in his army. Meaning if one of Stannis' men sneaked into his army he would be immediately found out. Also the two camps are a long distance away from each other (as said Stannis' men looked like "mice" under Storm's End) so no could traverse that distance would immediately being seen by Renly's scouts and soldiers. 

Again, I have already addressed  you pretending like you cant suspended disbelief when you clearly can. What is the point of you replying to me  ?

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2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I already addressed this argument. 

Lol you're not addressing anything. You said Renly could have just went to King's Landing and left Stannis to deal with later. I told you why he couldn't. 

Quote

Renly did know that since Robb sent Cat to him and not stannis. 

Renly did not know that, Cat was open to an alliance with both, and she almost believed Stannis' story by connecting it to Bran.

Quote

Again, I have already addressed  you pretending like you cant suspended disbelief when you clearly can. What is the point of you replying to me  ?

Because your argument is a bad argument. It relies on Renly knowing what the readers know. Magic hasn't existed for centuries and no one sees it as a credible threat. A normal assassin cannot kill Renly, it took a magical assassin. In order for Renly to "suspend his disbelief" so that he would take Stannis seriously he'd have to be shown evidence magic exists. But he has not.

According to your logic if Renly took KL and then Stannis still killed him with a shadow baby he would be stupid. For failing to see what no one could predict.

Edited by R2D

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On 10/6/2020 at 4:22 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And why is it Cersei?

You ask a question and then give your own answer anyway.  Cersei is not the stupidest.  The stupidest is Samwell for letting friendship get in the way of a good decision. 

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On 10/9/2020 at 10:51 PM, Springwatch said:

 

Sorry to come back to this after such a while - and sorry about the above empty quote box, I don't know how to get rid of it.

On 10/10/2020 at 6:41 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

that was on his guard Fat Tom who died in the throne room. 

I stand corrected. "that" being the letter Ned wrote to Stannis, which I claimed was seized onboard the ship Ned commissioned.

I went back and read the relevant chapters in AGOT. I have been mistaken about the letter being aboard the ship commissioned by Ned (Maybe TV show influence?)

Ned writes his letter (in his solar in the Tower of the Hand) and seals it, just as Littlefinger enters (AGOT Ned XIII). The next we hear about the letter is NOT in the Throne Room confrontation - why wouldn't Cersei use it if she had it?

The next we see the letter is when Cersei summons Sansa, on the third day after the confrontation.  Cersei says, "We found this on the captain of your household guard, Sansa" (AGOT Sansa IV). Fat Tom had been promoted to captain of Ned's guard after Jory was killed and Ned send some of his best men to capture Gregor Clegane.

So Sansa did not contribute one whit to the letter thing. I have had to reorganize my thoughts relating to it, lol. You live and you learn.

However...

On 10/10/2020 at 10:22 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

ratting out her family in king's landing greatly contributed to Cercie's ability to prevent their escape and in the process slaughter the Stark household guards. Sansa herself becomes a prisoner of the war after giving Cercie her contributions.

...

had his daughter's escaped, there would be little to coerce him to falsely confess with.  

...

This is important.

Sansa going to Cersei probably contributed into Cersei being able to seize her (and attempt to seize Arya), to use as valuable hostages. To have leverage over Ned.

Ned only confesses his "treason" after Varys (working with Cersei at this point) makes a thinly veiled threat againt the life of his daughters.

They (Ned, Cersei, Varys) then have a deal worked out - only, petty Joffrey steps in and chops Ned's head off.

GRRM himself has said Sansa contributed to Ned's demise. Ned contributed to Ned's demise by not taking the time to properly explain the situation to his elder daughter. We see him explaining things to Arya but not to Sansa, she was left with Septa Mordane. Someone who's narrow-minded and judgemental, a lick-spittle, someone who drinks too much and passes out at the Hand's Tourney - not looking after her young charge.

All in all, I'd not say Sansa at the time was a bad player of the game - she hardly understood what was going on around her - she was a pawn. She wasn't playing.

That might change in the future books, there are hints. Sansa, in her mind, has been analysing Cersei's and Petyr Baelish's game. Forming nebulous ideas about their game. Maybe we'll see her crystallising those vague ideas to become a true player. And be good at it, because she has something both Littlefinger and Cersei lack, compassion and empathy.

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3 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

GRRM himself has said Sansa contributed to Ned's demise

Yeah, I don't agree, as I've argued at length before. I think GRRM has given us a big shiny box covered with ribbons and glitter and stuff, but there's nothing inside. But I understand why many people feel they have to take these remarks at face value.

I'll only say that his remarks about Stannis and Renly prove that he is not 100% serious all the time - because making that connection with Sansa is patently impossible.

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6 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yeah, I don't agree, as I've argued at length before. I think GRRM has given us a big shiny box covered with ribbons and glitter and stuff, but there's nothing inside. But I understand why many people feel they have to take these remarks at face value.

I'll only say that his remarks about Stannis and Renly prove that he is not 100% serious all the time - because making that connection with Sansa is patently impossible.

Care to elaborate? Because I'm not understanding your point.

Are you saying GRRM lies to his readers?

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