Jump to content

Who Are The Heroes?


Curled Finger

Recommended Posts

Wow Lady, that is such a rich post.  I am pleased to have piqued your interest when you have such thrilling research in the real world.  What you've done is precisely how I conducted my research.  Find every mention of hero and take it in context.   I did make a list of people considered heroes and tried to extrapolate from there.  The Age of Heroes has lots of characters.  As you look into some of these cretins by today's standards you might be as surprised as I was.  For example Lann the Clever was a really nasty piece of work.  What made him heroic?  Why, he was clever and that's honestly it.  He didn't outright steal but orchestrated this elaborate misery on the Casterlys.  It's thought he was a bastard of one of Garth Greenhand's daughters and lied to Garth about being his own son.   He really was wicked clever.  Garth himself was all about bringing life forth and sustaining it.  Fertility is a heroic thing I reckon.  I beg your pardon, I am working on 2 screens in an effort to keep up with all your work here.  

Daeron the Dragon Knight was young and a conqueror.  Check check.  

The Last Hero was an adventurer and noble in his task.  We can expand that to include bravery, stubbornness and perhaps communication.  For all it's worth I think those unnamed but not unsung hero companions were representative of the powerful houses (ie Age of Heroes heroes) of the 1st Men.  Of course, I think TLH was a real 1st Men bastard, so take or leave that as you will.  

Bran is sweet thinking his good nuncle will find the COTF.  Does that make Bran heroic?  No.  Bran went beyond the Wall without the benefit of legs.  Overcoming disability is a recurring theme among heroes.

Yah, Sansa is a treasure trove of hero worship.  Loras is a beautiful knight and talented tourneyer--what do you call a tourney combatant?  I can't discern anything particularly heroic about Loras until The Hound saves his butt.   To his credit, Loras did give Clegane all the credit.   I don't know if that is heroic but it makes me like Loras a lot more.  

Sam almost screams for a cape and tights.  I credit Sam with truth and intelligence, though intelligence doesn't seem to be valuable to the Westerosi. You tell me. 

It's funny with Dondarrion.  I put him in category with Lann the Clever in all that outsmarting Gregor.  And Jeyne was right, he was brave and gallant.  

That was a brilliant quote to bring up in the exchange between Sansa and The Hound.  Shall we add wise to the list of qualities? 

Red Sword of Heroes.  Beats me, it sure hasn't done much to illuminate heroes, has it?  I tend to discount Sallador Saan because the whole Azor Ahai thing isn't Westerosi.  Tell me if you find or are inspired by more in this.   I simply tossed it.  

Your admonishment to Davos makes me smile and consider Davos in the light of heroes.   What is Davos?  Honest, loyal, defiant, determined.  More?  Less? 

Wildlings are heroes not soldiers.  Is this an ancient idea?  Does this go back to one of my all time favorite theories that beyond the Wall was actually a penal colony of sacrifices?   I love all of this.  The general term heroes is interesting.  Dany and Thoren Smallwood seem to be scoffing at the ideas of real heroes in the statements you provided.  Mythical, unreal.  That's really sad.  

Lady you put a lot into that and I could not appreciate your time and effort more.  Lots to consider in just the 1st 2 books.  Sam and Davos duly noted.  

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:
  • Hot Pie
  • Moon Boy
  • Patchface
  • Butterbumps
  • Dontos Hollard's ghost
  • Jinglebell's ghost
  • Jalabhar Xho
  • Harys Swyft
  • Gatehouse Ami (hero is gender neutral after all)
  • Pretty Pia
  • Weasel
  • Jeyne Poole/fArya

Don't forget Ramsay Bolton and Lord Wobblecheeks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Don't forget Ramsay Bolton and Lord Wobblecheeks.

Oh no! They are up there in the Pantheon of the gods. 

Cersei the Just

Ramsay the Good

Roose the Kind

Illyrio the gracious 

Varys the Loyal 

Littlefinger the trustworthy 

Euron the Chivalrous 

Poor Bowen the Brave

Old Walder the Honorable 

Late Vargo the Selfless 

Gregor the gallant

Tywin the Scrupulous 

Joffrey the...? (damn, I'm running out of titles) 

Rorge and Biter. Deserve to be in the Gods' godsguard 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pod Payne ... he's like the 'squire' hero. 
he's loyal & although shy, he's brave - he saved Tyrion.  He's teamed up with Brieanne.

one could even think that Pod on his piebald was the one, unknowningly, rounding up the companion group.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

He did not like the taste of this. It smelled of deceit, of whispers and lies and plots hatched in the dark, all the things he'd hoped to leave behind with the Spider and Lord Littlefinger and their ilk. Barristan Selmy was not a bookish man, but he had often glanced through the pages of the White Book, where the deeds of his predecessors had been recorded. Some had been heroes, some weaklings, knaves, or cravens. Most were only men—quicker and stronger than most, more skilled with sword and shield, but still prey to pride, ambition, lust, love, anger, jealousy, greed for gold, hunger for power, and all the other failings that afflicted lesser mortals. The best of them overcame their flaws, did their duty, and died with their swords in their hands. The worst …  The worst were those who played the game of thrones. 

I think Barristan almost has it here.

Heroes are usually thought of as those who are remembered positively for their deeds.

For Barry, that means duty above all else. However, some men's heroes are other men's villains.

Daeron is remembered as Daeron the Good by many, but not by all:

Quote

"You can know a man by his friends, Egg. Daeron surrounded himself with maesters, septons, and singers. Always there were women whispering in his ear, and his court was full of Dornishmen. How not, when he had taken a Dornishwoman into his bed, and sold his own sweet sister to the prince of Dorne, though it was Daemon that she loved? Daeron bore the same name as the Young Dragon, but when his Dornish wife gave him a son he named the child Baelor, after the feeblest king who ever sat the Iron Throne.
"Daemon, though . . . Daemon was no more pious than a king need be, and all the great knights of the realm gathered to him. It would suit Lord Bloodraven if their names were all forgotten, so he has forbidden us to sing of them, but I remember. Robb Reyne, Gareth the Grey, Ser Aubrey Ambrose, Lord Gormon Peake, Black Byren Flowers, Redtusk, Fireball . . . Bittersteel! I ask you, has there ever been such a noble company, such a roll of heroes?
"Why, lad? You ask me why? Because Daemon was the better man. The old king saw it, too. He gave the sword to Daemon. Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conquerer, the blade that every Targaryen king had wielded since the Conquest . . . he put that sword in Daemon's hand the day he knighted him, a boy of twelve."

And Blackfyre is remembered by many as a traitor, and by many as a hero.

Perhaps what the world really needs are not men remembered as heroes but men who do what is right.

Not strength, conviction, or duty above all else, but mercy, doubt and wisdom.

The last hero didn't win with a magic sword. He won by learning the language of the other side and speaking with them.

The First Men didn't conquer the Children, they made a pact, when the wisest of both races prevailed.

The world is not a cosmic struggle of good against evil, it is a complicated mess that we need to make the best of.

Quote

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."
"The war?" asked Davos.
"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.
"My heart," Davos said slowly, "is full of doubts."

Be like Davos, be full of doubt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Lady Dacey said:

these actually seem reasonable candidates for this thread

Ya they do

33 minutes ago, Yaya said:

Pod Payne ... he's like the 'squire' hero. 
he's loyal & although shy, he's brave - he saved Tyrion.  He's teamed up with Brieanne.

one could even think that Pod on his piebald was the one, unknowningly, rounding up the companion group.

 

Phew! At last somebody other than me thinks so.

 

Tinfoily, but still decent I hope 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Cmon man! (I remember you aren't one yet like being called so) 

You too proposed Dolorous Edd and Tormund as wives for Jon snow in my Mrs/Lady Jon Snow thread.

Jokes will always be in rage. I'll come to the serious part (OP) soon:D

I cannot defend myself there.  Hope to see some heroes as seen through your eyes soon.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2020 at 10:04 PM, Curled Finger said:

Hope to see some heroes as seen through your eyes soon

@Curled Finger

I think that the heroes are closely linked with VS swords. I know you do too. I already had a few topics about it where we both discussed. And you had scores more of sword hero topics than me over the years. So both of us know each other's opinions. Nothing new.

 

Not entirely tho...

 

... I think all the heros we've discussed will come with most/all of the VS swords to the battle against Others. But in the end there will be a Twilight saga like ending. The Others aren't the real enemy. GRRM doesn't believe in something being evil because it just is supposed to be. Maybe BR and COTF. Bloodraven to avenge himself on Shiera/Quaithe. COTF to avenge themselves and all the magical creatures hunted to extinction and nearly extinct too on the humans. Bran thought that only humans will swear bloody vengeance. Wrong. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

@Curled Finger

I think that the heroes are closely linked with VS swords. I know you do too. I already had a few topics about it where we both discussed. And you had scores more of sword hero topics than me over the years. So both of us know each other's opinions. Nothing new.

 

Not entirely tho...

 

... I think all the heros we've discussed will come with most/all of the VS swords to the battle against Others. But in the end there will be a Twilight saga like ending. The Others aren't the real enemy. GRRM doesn't believe in something being evil because it just is supposed to be. Maybe BR and COTF. Bloodraven to avenge himself on Shiera/Quaithe. COTF to avenge themselves and all the magical creatures hunted to extinction and nearly extinct too on the humans. Bran thought that only humans will swear bloody vengeance. Wrong. 

Ah kiddo, I've got a list of 28 heroes though some rank higher than others.  Of course, these determinations come from my own experiences--from the qualities I hold heroic, not necessarily what Westeros holds heroic.  

You're right though.  The big heroes will wield those magic swords in the battle to come.  I think this is so because a hero is to fantasy what laughter is to children.  Fits.  Right.  Essential.  

I really like Garland Tyrell, (Lady Smallwood, too while at it).  He's a gentleman and loving and polite.  None of that makes him a hero, but it makes me like him an awful lot, particularly when compared to some of those top 10 (12) hero picks.  I think a date with The Hound would suck.  I would duck into a bathroom and find a back exit before I would willingly return to a person like him.   It occurs to me that I know much more about Garland than the Others and I do tend to stand on "we just don't know" where they are concerned.  I don't predict what Martin will write.   He's much smarter than I and holds a very different sort of world view.  What's this got to do with a date with The Hound or a dance with Garland Tyrell?  Quite a bit I think.  Martin has mastered turning our expectations inside out.  While I am sure The Hound will be there for the stand against the others, I cannot say the same for Garland Tyrell.  Hence the quest for a consensus on heroes.  

Thanks for chiming in.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heroes heroes heroes... Took me a few days but I've come back. 

oh but a date with Garlan Tyrell, what an interesting concept! I like what you did there. It makes sense. 

On 10/13/2020 at 2:04 PM, Curled Finger said:

Hence the quest for a consensus on heroes. 

As an experiment, say we get two characters that qualify as much as 'undisputed' heroes as possible. Let's say Sandor and Brienne. Now we want to try and strip the layers to get to what they have in common, and then see if we can identify those same core characteristics in other hero candidates as well... not sure if this will work. it's an experiment. 

So Sandor Clegane and Brienne of Tarth. Not much in common, I'd say. Brienne is much more in Garlan Tyrell territory, in being courteous and just and honorable. Wait, is Garlan honorable? I don't think we have enough evidence for or against, but he's definitely chivalric and chivalry involves at least the performance of honor. But I digress. Brienne is all... nice. Good. A really good person who treats other people with respect. Not so Clegane. He’s not nice. I don’t think it’s his ruthlessness or his violence that makes him a hero, though. More than fearsome size and strength and a disfigured face, I think Brienne and Clegane have in common a deep sense of inadequacy. Something a person like Garlan would never know, sorry dear Garlan. You fit in with the popular crowd, our heroes are the outcasts. ‘A ragtag band of misfits’, I think that’s the trope.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I begin to dig into Storm. Everyone's favourite book, is it not? Storm is very very slim in the hero department though. 

the first few mentions of heroes don't strike me as noteworthy or at least mean nothing new after what we've gathered form the first two books. But then this does come up:

Quote

"Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children." His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

That's a brilliant one! So much fodder to our conversations. So Tywin is informing us on many things that once: he himself does not care to be a hero, Robert Baratheon did, but he wasn't one, he is willing to kill children after all. The Hound killed Mycah, but now maybe he's not the Hound anymore, just Sandor Clegane. Is he on a redemption arc? Is it overused to say someone is on a redemption arc? Does he have to be redempted to become a hero, or it is possible to be a child-killing hero? If he wasn't a hero but is bound to become one, what does this tell us? The same goes for Jaime Lannister too, of course. 

Okay, next passage that struck me is this one. I know you are interested in Westeros and this happens in the far-far-away Slaver's Bay, but bear with me. These are two westerosi noblemen discussing, so I think it earns a place among our references. Jorah and Baristan Selmy argue about Mereen's "hero":

Quote

"Let the fool ride back and forth and shout until his horse goes lame. He does us no harm."

"He does," Arstan Whitebeard insisted. "Wars are not won with swords and spears alone, ser. Two hosts of equal strength may come together, but one will break and run whilst the other stands. This hero builds courage in the hearts of his own men and plants the seeds of doubt in ours."

Is that also the role of a hero? To give people something to believe in, to give the opponents something to fear? But a hero should not inspire so much fear, that people believe he'll do anything (say killing children, no, if your opponent is a hero you can rest assured you be treated right even if defeated). Now I'm not sure of any of this, just tossing ideas. Barristan speaks of doubt, that's an interesting notion, that the hero inspires more doubt than fear. Deanerys sends Strong Bewals to deal with the "hero" in the most unheroic way.

Daenerys again:

Quote

 "Bring me the book I was reading last night." She wanted to lose herself in the words, in other times and other places. The fat leather-bound volume was full of songs and stories from the Seven Kingdoms. Children's stories, if truth be told; too simple and fanciful to be true history. All the heroes were tall and handsome, and you could tell the traitors by their shifty eyes. Yet she loved them all the same.

Our Garlan would make a good hero in those books, would he not? Children's stories, Daenerys dismisses them, but yet still there is something here that speaks to me. I feel like Mr. Martin is paroding himself with this line. Cause really, can traitors ever look more traitor-y than Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, from the very first appearance of each of them? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2020 at 8:03 AM, Yaya said:

Pod Payne ... he's like the 'squire' hero. 
he's loyal & although shy, he's brave - he saved Tyrion.  He's teamed up with Brieanne.

one could even think that Pod on his piebald was the one, unknowningly, rounding up the companion group.

 

Forgive me @Yaya--I missed your post as well as the one directly following.  Believe it or not, Pod is on that list of 28.  My biggest problem with Pod is that he's just a little guy--somewhere between 10 and 12.   Now, Martin has made all these child heroes and his word is law.   My modern senses are what prevent me from really embracing babies as heroes and that's just stupid.   Pod is loyal--remarkably loyal--to the point of love where Tyrion and Brienne are concerned.  He is open and honest and tries very hard to just do better all the way around.  Could he wield a sword?   I don't know yet, but Jamie is training too, so anything is possible.  I think Pod is a lovely and very fresh approach to defining heroism.  His willingness to serve the right people reliably and well speaks to the possible preordination of his absolute heroism.   Very good call.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/6/2020 at 9:38 PM, Curled Finger said:

What say ye, book club? 

Jeepers, I'd add the willingness to sacrifice your own life to save others or for the greater good.  I've been thinking of Rhaegar's rubies for some reason and who or what they represent.  I think the represent death and rebirth and perhaps our heros who are on the path of redeemtion.  They wash up on the shore of the Quiet Isle like Brienne and the Sandor and are freed from their sins, reborn in some way. Elder Brother says six have shown up and I wonder about the seventh.  I think that will be Jaime after his confrontation with LSH and I think he will be sentenced to the Wall travelling to Eastwatch  by way of the QI.       

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2020 at 8:24 AM, Mourning Star said:

I think Barristan almost has it here.

Heroes are usually thought of as those who are remembered positively for their deeds.

For Barry, that means duty above all else. However, some men's heroes are other men's villains.

Daeron is remembered as Daeron the Good by many, but not by all:

And Blackfyre is remembered by many as a traitor, and by many as a hero.

Perhaps what the world really needs are not men remembered as heroes but men who do what is right.

Not strength, conviction, or duty above all else, but mercy, doubt and wisdom.

The last hero didn't win with a magic sword. He won by learning the language of the other side and speaking with them.

The First Men didn't conquer the Children, they made a pact, when the wisest of both races prevailed.

The world is not a cosmic struggle of good against evil, it is a complicated mess that we need to make the best of.

Be like Davos, be full of doubt.

@Mourning Star it's good to meet you here and I apologize for missing your post.   Barristan is perhaps the sterling standard of hero in Westeros.  He does not enjoy intrigue.  He's a straight shooter and tactful at that.  He is bold in his undertakings whether participating as a mystery knight at age 10 or rescuing his king from captivity in Duskendale to leading an army in the defense of a foreign land this guy is willing to do the job and is smart enough to do it well.   I will personally throw honesty in the mix because Selmy is among the few who speak the truth of matters.   It's clear you see duty as a major component of Selmy's heroism.  Is simply doing one's job heroic?  There are many tangible traits to Barristan the Bold's heroic nature and I think it must be nature given the age he decided to become a knight as well as his execution of duties.  

I'm not a major fan of The Hound.  He's crude and seems to jump right to killing and the harshest truths.  His lack of refinement is distasteful, but I cannot deny that he has a heart of gold where matters of defense and protection are required.  I bring him up in chorus with your Daeron the Good and Daemon Blackfyre.  They were polarizing leaders at great odds with each other yet, as you nicely illustrate, both could be considered heroes with little effort.  Did either of them do what was right?   At the very least we do get The Hound winning a trial by combat and Beric Dondarrion telling us he was innocent of murder.   Your examples were a brilliant addition to this conversation.  

While I agree wholeheartedly that doing right is what Westeros needs of all it's men and women and children, that perception of right varies.  I have to ask myself at this point if in the end the Others are the lifeforce holding Westeros together would Craster be considered heroic?  Shudders.  A tale always has at least 2 tellings because these characters and their perceptions are as flawed as our own sensibilities tend to be.   

Mercy, check.  Wisdom, check.  Doubt?  Beautiful and so unexpected.   Thank you for bringing such poignant detail to our list of heroic traits.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Heroes heroes heroes... Took me a few days but I've come back. 

oh but a date with Garlan Tyrell, what an interesting concept! I like what you did there. It makes sense. 

As an experiment, say we get two characters that qualify as much as 'undisputed' heroes as possible. Let's say Sandor and Brienne. Now we want to try and strip the layers to get to what they have in common, and then see if we can identify those same core characteristics in other hero candidates as well... not sure if this will work. it's an experiment. 

So Sandor Clegane and Brienne of Tarth. Not much in common, I'd say. Brienne is much more in Garlan Tyrell territory, in being courteous and just and honorable. Wait, is Garlan honorable? I don't think we have enough evidence for or against, but he's definitely chivalric and chivalry involves at least the performance of honor. But I digress. Brienne is all... nice. Good. A really good person who treats other people with respect. Not so Clegane. He’s not nice. I don’t think it’s his ruthlessness or his violence that makes him a hero, though. More than fearsome size and strength and a disfigured face, I think Brienne and Clegane have in common a deep sense of inadequacy. Something a person like Garlan would never know, sorry dear Garlan. You fit in with the popular crowd, our heroes are the outcasts. ‘A ragtag band of misfits’, I think that’s the trope.

 

I've come back to this twice now and hope to find words adequate to respond appropriately as I find myself falling very short on adequate words today.  A ragtag band of misfits does seem to be the thing, doesn't it?   Not a beautiful rich young boy king who is cruel because beauty, wealth and status don't actually enter into the realm of heroics.   More to come. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's clear you see duty as a major component of Selmy's heroism.  Is simply doing one's job heroic? 

That depends on the job and what one faces. 

Quote

"A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose."

Much like a man can only be brave when he is afraid, he can only prove dutiful when tested.

Of course the same argument could be made for love, it is in the testing that it becomes meaningful.

Following this same theme, I would suggest that one can only do what is "right" (or at least it's only meaningful) if one first has doubt. 

And, above all else, it is doing the right thing when it is hard to do that makes someone a hero.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...