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Who Are The Heroes?


Curled Finger

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@Lady Dacey, again with the 2 screens trying to keep up with you.  You do seem to be enjoying this and I appreciate the conversation and your effort in it.  Tormund and Edd are both on the list, though Edd's actual heroism is a bit more difficult to define than Tormund's.   I'll take whatever you've got on those 2.  

You have nailed it right on the head with the wonderful examples in your 1st quote.  Tywin and Robert and Sandor Clegane as points of a triangle of masculinity and I would venture to add, power.   Tywin really is a heartless bastard and Robert is a fool.  The Hound was a killer.   Note killer, not murderer as there is a distinction.   I live out in the country so to speak and have on occasion found mice in the garage.   As plague carrying disturbers of my peace it is my solemn duty to rid my living space of them.   I have a terminator who also acts as undertaker for the corpses because these dead things gross me out to no end.  However, calling this guy out on Sunday morning seemed a silly thing to me.   Gloved and armed with a dustpan and 2 plastic bags the offender was scooped up and disposed of.   This is as close as I can get to understanding the necessity of  killing but I suspect it's not far off from the nature of The Hound.  Killing is necessary.  I believe I was replying to @Mourning Star with a little diatribe of traits I don't equate with heroic in our Hound.  Perhaps I need to back up on the statements as I find myself a killer of necessity.  Robert would conquer and Tywin would kill babies while our crude Hound ignores commands to protect and defend 2 little girls.  That. Is. Heroic.  

Your Barristan quote led me straight to Jon Snow's and Danaerys Targaryen's doors.   Their rooms of heroics are vast I think.   How many topics have begun with a simple question along the lines of "Is Jon A Traitor to the Nights Watch" devolve into heated arguments over Jon's worthiness?   Too many I think.  Dany's book illustrating how easily you should be able to identify heroes and villains was an inspired point to bring up and perhaps the crux of the matter.  The vantages we all come from, the characters those traits speak to, and our willingness to overlook the rotted parts of the onion.

Lady, I am finding more and deeper traits of heroism in each of your posts.   Thank you so much.  

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I can't think of Barristan as heroic. Maybe once, in his youth. But he has become the personification of a dutiful individual. He will do his duty, he will stick to his vows, no matter what. And that means he will do those things even when the honourable course of action would be to break the vow, to do the right thing, not the dutiful thing. 

But he has come to regret many things, and perhaps he will be able to take the honourable path in the future, instead of the dutiful one. Maester Aemon too came to realise he was wrong those three times he chose duty, but when he was ready to make the right choice it was too late for him. Hopefully it will go differently for Barristan. 

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41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jeepers, I'd add the willingness to sacrifice your own life to save others or for the greater good.  I've been thinking of Rhaegar's rubies for some reason and who or what they represent.  I think the represent death and rebirth and perhaps our heros who are on the path of redeemtion.  They wash up on the shore of the Quiet Isle like Brienne and the Sandor and are freed from their sins, reborn in some way. Elder Brother says six have shown up and I wonder about the seventh.  I think that will be Jaime after his confrontation with LSH and I think he will be sentenced to the Wall travelling to Eastwatch  by way of the QI.       

It sure is nice seeing so much of you lately @LynnS.   Self sacrifice should absolutely shine near the top of the list of heroic traits and I think it does in some of the heroes' stories.   But you had to bring the Quiet Isle into the conversation about heroes in that extraordinarily unexpected way you have.  The rubies are long discussed and could be actually anything, but your representation is perfect for this conversation.   I will ask you to take a small step further in examining Elder Brother, for surely he is a ruby precisely as you suggest.   An honest and compassionate man of faith with the capacity to heal as opposed to say resurrect as my hero, Thoros does.  You could be right about Jamie or Thoros or Harlan or any of the broken men we have encountered.  What would Jamie reborn look like I wonder.   

Perfect addition.   Thank you so much, short and sweet and perfect.  

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16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

That depends on the job and what one faces. 

Much like a man can only be brave when he is afraid, he can only prove dutiful when tested.

Of course the same argument could be made for love, it is in the testing that it becomes meaningful.

Following this same theme, I would suggest that one can only do what is "right" (or at least it's only meaningful) if one first has doubt. 

And, above all else, it is doing the right thing when it is hard to do that makes someone a hero.

Ah ha, an opportunity to redeem myself in a faster reply!  

This will bleed over from your original post as I read it.  I thought of Stannis because he is my duty guy in this story.   Is Stannis heroic or is Davos the one who brings credence to his cause?  As I read your list above it seems to me that Stannis, love or hate him, checks all the boxes.  

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9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I can't think of Barristan as heroic. Maybe once, in his youth. But he has become the personification of a dutiful individual. He will do his duty, he will stick to his vows, no matter what. And that means he will do those things even when the honourable course of action would be to break the vow, to do the right thing, not the dutiful thing. 

But he has come to regret many things, and perhaps he will be able to take the honourable path in the future, instead of the dutiful one. Maester Aemon too came to realise he was wrong those three times he chose duty, but when he was ready to make the right choice it was too late for him. Hopefully it will go differently for Barristan. 

I still love it when you buzz by.  And so timely.  I realize Barristan has some situations wherein a reader could judge his actions as unfaithful for lack of a better descriptor.  Much has been made of a person who is dutiful, such as you describe Selmy and I tend to corner next to Stannis.  No one has addressed Stannis here.   Is Barristan doing the right thing in leading Dany's forces in the defense of Mereen?  Making knights in Essos?  Jailing her former allies?  

Isn't that a wonderful bit of writing when Maester Aemon tells Jon love is the death of duty?  Kill the boy.  All of it.  Were the choices Aemon made really not the right choices?  This is interesting as all get out.  Back to Barristan who served as blindly as Maester Aemon--are the circumstances really so different?  Isn't it Jamie who tests our ideas about vows?  Is upholding a vow more or less honorable than doing the right thing?  

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Just now, Curled Finger said:

Ah ha, an opportunity to redeem myself in a faster reply!  

This will bleed over from your original post as I read it.  I thought of Stannis because he is my duty guy in this story.   Is Stannis heroic or is Davos the one who brings credence to his cause?  As I read your list above it seems to me that Stannis, love or hate him, checks all the boxes.  

Stannis is for me a hollow semblance of a hero.

As you said he seems to check the boxes, but he is missing something, maybe the very core of what it is to be a hero.

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I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty... If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark... Sacrifice... is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice.
Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . ."
"She talks of cows," Davos told the king. "I am speaking of a boy, your daughter's friend, your brother's son."
"A king's son, with the power of kingsblood in his veins." Melisandre's ruby glowed like a red star at her throat. "Do you think you've saved this boy, Onion Knight? When the long night falls, Edric Storm shall die with the rest, wherever he is hidden. Your own sons as well. Darkness and cold will cover the earth. You meddle in matters you do not understand."
"There's much I don't understand," Davos admitted. "I have never pretended elsewise. I know the seas and rivers, the shapes of the coasts, where the rocks and shoals lie. I know hidden coves where a boat can land unseen. And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all."
Stannis's face darkened. "Do you mock me to my face? Must I learn a king's duty from an onion smuggler?"
Davos knelt. "If I have offended, take my head. I'll die as I lived, your loyal man. But hear me first. Hear me for the sake of the onions I brought you, and the fingers you took."
Stannis slid Lightbringer from its scabbard. Its glow filled the chamber. "Say what you will, but say it quickly." The muscles in the king's neck stood out like cords.
Davos fumbled inside his cloak and drew out the crinkled sheet of parchment. It seemed a thin and flimsy thing, yet it was all the shield he had. "A King's Hand should be able to read and write. Maester Pylos has been teaching me." He smoothed the letter flat upon his knee and began to read by the light of the magic sword.

A Storm of Swords - Davos 6

 I love this whole section, from sneaking Edric out of Dragonstone, to Mel confronting Davos in prison to this back and forth, which leads Stannis to the Wall. The metaphorical pen (Davos's letter) defeating the argument of the flaming sword (Mel).

Stannis speaks of a sacrifice he must make, and Mel of cows, but a crucial part is missing.

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'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say,

A Clash of Kings - Davos 1

Nissa Nissa was a willing sacrifice, and she was the hero here. She made the hard choice, not the forger.

Duty only becomes a virtue when it is tested. 

Had Stannis given up the crown and supported Renly, that would have been a hard choice. I'm not sure it would have been right, but I do believe murdering his little brother in cold blood was wrong. As was killing Penrose.

While I might be inclined to side with duty, or see Stannis as righteous much of the time, his black and white worldview, and lack of doubt, leave him wanting when it comes to heroism. If the choice isn't hard, it isn't heroic.

Burning an innocent alive is madness and cruelty. I cannot believe the only way to save humanity is to kill children, nor that that would be a humanity worth saving. 

And in the first quote above it is Davos who is willing to hazard himself for what he believes is right, knowing Stannis might execute him. He does what is hard (and for Davos that is reading!) If that is not a hero, I don't know what is.

I love that Davos refers to his parchment as a shield here, a direct reference to Ned and Cersei talking about Robert's will, I believe, and also to Jon's own paper shield later on.

Stannis is willing to do anything for duty, but I do not think this equates to what is right.

In fact I think when Stannis is forced to struggle with these choices he can act heroically, but perhaps the true "light" or wisdom is not his own.

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"It still angers me. How could he think I would hurt the boy? I chose Robert, did I not? When that hard day came. I chose blood over honor."
He does not use the boy's name. That made Davos very uneasy. "I hope young Edric will recover soon."
Stannis waved a hand, dismissing his concern. "It is a chill, no more. He coughs, he shivers, he has a fever. Maester Pylos will soon set him right. By himself the boy is nought, you understand, but in his veins flows my brother's blood. There is power in a king's blood, she says."

And this is the problem, the boy is his nephew. He condemns Renly and Robert for not raising the boy themselves, but has he ever shown Edric love himself?

I can think of no better quote to end on than this one:

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"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"
"Everything," said Davos, softly.
Stannis looked at him, jaw clenched. "Go," the king said at last, "before you talk yourself back into the dungeon."

A child's life has inherent value, worth fighting for. It is not a coin to be bartered away for salvation by those who should be its protector.

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49 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Stannis is for me a hollow semblance of a hero.

As you said he seems to check the boxes, but he is missing something, maybe the very core of what it is to be a hero.

 I love this whole section, from sneaking Edric out of Dragonstone, to Mel confronting Davos in prison to this back and forth, which leads Stannis to the Wall. The metaphorical pen (Davos's letter) defeating the argument of the flaming sword (Mel).

Stannis speaks of a sacrifice he must make, and Mel of cows, but a crucial part is missing.

Nissa Nissa was a willing sacrifice, and she was the hero here. She made the hard choice, not the forger.

Duty only becomes a virtue when it is tested. 

Had Stannis given up the crown and supported Renly, that would have been a hard choice. I'm not sure it would have been right, but I do believe murdering his little brother in cold blood was wrong. As was killing Penrose.

While I might be inclined to side with duty, or see Stannis as righteous much of the time, his black and white worldview, and lack of doubt, leave him wanting when it comes to heroism. If the choice isn't hard, it isn't heroic.

Burning an innocent alive is madness and cruelty. I cannot believe the only way to save humanity is to kill children, nor that that would be a humanity worth saving. 

And in the first quote above it is Davos who is willing to hazard himself for what he believes is right, knowing Stannis might execute him. He does what is hard (and for Davos that is reading!) If that is not a hero, I don't know what is.

I love that Davos refers to his parchment as a shield here, a direct reference to Ned and Cersei talking about Robert's will, I believe, and also to Jon's own paper shield later on.

Stannis is willing to do anything for duty, but I do not think this equates to what is right.

In fact I think when Stannis is forced to struggle with these choices he can act heroically, but perhaps the true "light" or wisdom is not his own.

And this is the problem, the boy is his nephew. He condemns Renly and Robert for not raising the boy themselves, but has he ever shown Edric love himself?

I can think of no better quote to end on than this one:

A child's life has inherent value, worth fighting for. It is not a coin to be bartered away for salvation by those who should be its protector.

Well said and argued.  I wonder if Stannis has learned any valuable thing from his great losses in the war.  When Stannis opts to go save the Nights Watch I could not help but wonder if this was an act of inspiration or desperation.  As you say, much of Stannis' story is about making very bad choices for a potentially bad cause.   He doesn't see it this way, but he also doesn't see it as Melisandre sees it either.  She is a magical vehicle he wants to believe in, but I'm not certain he actually does believe at all.  Above @kissdbyfire made a very good argument about duty being the death of love if not life itself.  Duty only becomes a virtue when it is tested cannot be invalidated.  Stannis is not burning anyone despite pressure from his men.  Now at any rate.  Stannis is willing to dirty his hands, unlike Robert the King.  However, he is convinced of essential ends to the means he is presented with.   Perhaps that has changed and I enjoy Stannis without Melisandre or Davos--it's a truer look at him as a commander, perhaps a man.  This Stannis is not as eager for full frontal attack against the Lannisters.   This Stannis appears to be concerned with the welfare of the North.  What he intends to do is quite heroic.  I'm just not sold that he is.  There can not be a full discussion of duty as an honorable trait without bringing Stannis to the table.   I feel indulged and thank you.  

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6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I still love it when you buzz by.  And so timely.  I realize Barristan has some situations wherein a reader could judge his actions as unfaithful for lack of a better descriptor.  Much has been made of a person who is dutiful, such as you describe Selmy and I tend to corner next to Stannis.  No one has addressed Stannis here. 
 

I tend to view characters who are extremely dutiful as... cowardly, actually. And I don’t mean physical cowardice, so to speak, but rather moral cowardice. “I didn’t do anything, I was just following orders!”, or, “I was doing my duty, sticking to my vows!”. I say, vows schmows. A great example imo is when the KG would stand guard at the door while Aerys raped and brutalised Rhaella, and then telling Jaime that that was their “duty”. Duty which, by the way, goes completely against the chivalric code. Barristan was Aerys’s KG, and in that capacity must have witnessed many horrors and injustices, not just the brutalisation of Rhaella. And yet, he stood by, he did his duty. But I can’t say that was honourable. 
 

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 Is Barristan doing the right thing in leading Dany's forces in the defense of Mereen?  Making knights in Essos?  Jailing her former allies?  
 

I think so. But he regrets his past actions, or rather, his past inaction. I think Barristan will be tested again. Will he stick to his duties, or will he do whatever is right and honourable, even if it conflicts w/ his duties? 

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Isn't that a wonderful bit of writing when Maester Aemon tells Jon love is the death of duty?  Kill the boy.  All of it.  Were the choices Aemon made really not the right choices?  This is interesting as all get out.  Back to Barristan who served as blindly as Maester Aemon--are the circumstances really so different?  Isn't it Jamie who tests our ideas about vows?  Is upholding a vow more or less honorable than doing the right thing?  

Well, he came to regret those choices, didn’t he? And when he learned of Dany and the dragons, he wanted to go to her. Sadly it was too late for him... :crying:

And if “love Is the death of duty”, then let duty die. That’s what “kill the boy” is about imo. Grow up and make the hard choices, if those are the right ones. 
Martin is tricksy... he gives us a likeable, wise old man saying “love is the death of duty”, and most people assume the adorable old man must be right! But he isn’t imo. And when Jon receives and readers the Pink Letter, he makes a choice, love over duty, and rightly so, again, imo. 

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19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I will ask you to take a small step further in examining Elder Brother, for surely he is a ruby precisely as you suggest. 

Elder Brother is one of my favorite characters.  I'm not sure he would include himself as one of the rubies.  I think the rubies are wanderers looking for the path or to be shown the way.  EB seems like a fixture in the sanctuary.  He has found his purpose in healing the minds, bodies and souls of the broken men or women who wash up at the QI.  Unless he leaves after the seventh ruby shows up.  He says he is waiting for it but I don't think he will leave before then, if at all.  

 

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I tend to view characters who are extremely dutiful as... cowardly, actually. And I don’t mean physical cowardice, so to speak, but rather moral cowardice. “I didn’t do anything, I was just following orders!”, or, “I was doing my duty, sticking to my vows!”. I say, vows schmows. A great example imo is when the KG would stand guard at the door while Aerys raped and brutalised Rhaella, and then telling Jaime that that was their “duty”. Duty which, by the way, goes completely against the chivalric code. Barristan was Aerys’s KG, and in that capacity must have witnessed many horrors and injustices, not just the brutalisation of Rhaella. And yet, he stood by, he did his duty. But I can’t say that was honourable. 
 

I think so. But he regrets his past actions, or rather, his past inaction. I think Barristan will be tested again. Will he stick to his duties, or will he do whatever is right and honourable, even if it conflicts w/ his duties? 

Well, he came to regret those choices, didn’t he? And when he learned of Dany and the dragons, he wanted to go to her. Sadly it was too late for him... :crying:

And if “love Is the death of duty”, then let duty die. That’s what “kill the boy” is about imo. Grow up and make the hard choices, if those are the right ones. 
Martin is tricksy... he gives us a likeable, wise old man saying “love is the death of duty”, and most people assume the adorable old man must be right! But he isn’t imo. And when Jon receives and readers the Pink Letter, he makes a choice, love over duty, and rightly so, again, imo. 

That's a nice break down of your position on duty and a very clever look at the Kill the Boy speech.  Sometimes the hard choice is to do your duty.  Barristan has great passion for his duty while Stannis has none and Aemon experiences regret in his last days.  Sounds a little bit like all of us, doesn't it?  While I was researching heroes and what Westeros considers heroic the total commitment to duty didn't rate super high so much as the few or odd who actually took on new duty.   I am thinking along the lines of Robin Darklyn or Arthur Dayne here.  Barristan suffers the same problem Stannis suffers; a blind sort of commitment that has no flesh.  Serve the King until you die, whatever that means.  Take the throne or die, whatever that means.   Single-minded, I think.    Barristan is forced into a broader scope of duty in Dany's absence (Jorah's too, I think) while Stannis seems to have found an alternative means to gaining his end.  That appears to be growth if not fullness.   Dutiful is good to a certain extent--in structure, definition and order no doubt.   But I have to agree with you that it does not define a hero as a hero cannot be born of rules and blind following.  All of this makes me warm up to Jamie a little more.  Thankee, Sai.  

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's a nice break down of your position on duty and a very clever look at the Kill the Boy speech.  Sometimes the hard choice is to do your duty.  Barristan has great passion for his duty while Stannis has none and Aemon experiences regret in his last days.  Sounds a little bit like all of us, doesn't it?  While I was researching heroes and what Westeros considers heroic the total commitment to duty didn't rate super high so much as the few or odd who actually took on new duty.   I am thinking along the lines of Robin Darklyn or Arthur Dayne here.  Barristan suffers the same problem Stannis suffers; a blind sort of commitment that has no flesh.  Serve the King until you die, whatever that means.  Take the throne or die, whatever that means.   Single-minded, I think.    Barristan is forced into a broader scope of duty in Dany's absence (Jorah's too, I think) while Stannis seems to have found an alternative means to gaining his end.  That appears to be growth if not fullness.   Dutiful is good to a certain extent--in structure, definition and order no doubt.   But I have to agree with you that it does not define a hero as a hero cannot be born of rules and blind following.  All of this makes me warm up to Jamie a little more.  Thankee, Sai.  

Jaime is, IMO, a hell of a lot more honourable than many dutiful characters... even in acknowledging the rotten things he’s done. I think he’ll end up a true hero, perhaps leading a band of outlaws. I think the clue is here:

And me, that boy I was ... when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

We have another excellent example of someone doing the right thing, the honourable thing, and ignoring “duty” and strict rules... when Dunk beats the living daylights out of that nasty prick Aerion. Gawds, I love Dunk so much! :wub:

 

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Elder Brother is one of my favorite characters.  I'm not sure he would include himself as one of the rubies.  I think the rubies are wanderers looking for the path or to be shown the way.  EB seems like a fixture in the sanctuary.  He has found his purpose in healing the minds, bodies and souls of the broken men or women who wash up at the QI.  Unless he leaves after the seventh ruby shows up.  He says he is waiting for it but I don't think he will leave before then, if at all.  

Elder Brother represents what can or maybe should happen to Broken Men who dutifully do as told and end up someone else born of gore and war.  There can always be someone else.  Take all those mysterious brothers on the Isle.  Who are they?  What are their stories?  EB gets a place on the list for his essential services.  He is one of the few who preach peace in this war ravaged place.   I think that's heroic and though it isn't stated, I think the people whose lives he touches may think so too.  

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Elder Brother represents what can or maybe should happen to Broken Men who dutifully do as told and end up someone else born of gore and war.  There can always be someone else.  Take all those mysterious brothers on the Isle.  Who are they?  What are their stories?  EB gets a place on the list for his essential services.  He is one of the few who preach peace in this war ravaged place.   I think that's heroic and though it isn't stated, I think the people whose lives he touches may think so too.  

Yes , I agree.  I'm curious about the silent brothers as well, now that we know that Sandor is one of their number.  

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