Things that won't get answers

[CamiloRP]

I always assumed that we'll never know wether Aegon is a true Targaryen or not. To me, the point GRRM is making with him is that it doesn't matter, that "power resides where men believe it resides". The Golden Company obviously believes he is a Blackfyre, the lords of Westeros would be led to believe he is a Targaryen, it makes no matter who he is, just who people believe he is. I also see no way in which his true parentage can be revealed (if he isn't Rhaegar's son) as Aegon clearly thinks he is a Targaryen.

I also think we'll never get an answer on Azor Ahai, if he's even real (which I seriously doubt) I think the point of that prophecy is to have he readers fool themselves, like characters fooled themselves about the bleeding star meaning whatever suit their needs, everyone will look at the "evidence" and most will reach a different conclusion, wether it's Danny, Jon, Arya or Hotpie, I think that by story's end we'll have several characters that might fit the role and no clear answer. I think the point GRRM is making with this is that prophecy is intentionally vague so it's easier for it to fit. Look how maester Aemon and Rhaegar forced it to fit what they thought, the salt being the tears shed in Summerhall (which to me sounds ridiculous) or how Melissandre thinks is not a birth, but a rebirth, so it fits Stannis. In general I'm not a big fan of Alt Shift X, but they do have a good video about Azor Ahai being Ser Pounce, it's an anti-crackpot video, but I think it can easily be an anti-prophecy video.

So, anyway, what are other "things" you don't think would ever be answered even if the books are finished?

 

 

 

[Lord Lannister]

I definitely agree with you about (f)Aegon and Azor Ahai reborn. Even if Winds and Dream are published I doubt either will be spelled out and the fan community will still be arguing about them. 

This one may be controversial, but I get the feeling Jon's parentage won't be spelled out completely either to him or the reader. The breadcrumbs have been left for us to follow, maybe a few more will be dropped along the way, but no clear revelation. Jon will do what his character is going to do, regardless of what his parentage is. 

[CamiloRP]

4 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

This one may be controversial, but I get the feeling Jon's parentage won't be spelled out completely either to him or the reader. The breadcrumbs have been left for us to follow, maybe a few more will be dropped along the way, but no clear revelation. Jon will do what his character is going to do, regardless of what his parentage is. 

I don't think it'll happen, but know I kinda wish it will.

[TheLastWolf]

fAegon. Agreed with CamRP and Lord Lannister. 

AAR. TPWP. Lightbringer. Not so sure. 

Gerion is Jaqen BTW

Other mysteries

Where is Weasel? 

What happened to Stonesnake? 

Who was behind Mandon Moore's attack of Tyrion? We can only speculate. LF. Varys. Cersei. Hotpie. (shrug) 

Who told on Arianne? 

Who poisoned Dany's locusts and who is the Harpy? Reznak. Green grace. Hizdahr. (shrug again) 

For which Hand was tunnel to Chataya's built? Tywin. Jon. Shrug o shrug 

Hardhome and Summerhall? 

Knight of the laughing tree? 

Who wrote Pink Letter? 

Where do whores go? Tysha only. And the Sailor's Wife is Gerion's. See the Jaqen thread. 

Jon's parentage will be revealed though. It's GRRM. 

8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't think it'll happen, but know I kinda wish it will.

Exactly 

What else? 

[CamiloRP]

@TheLastWolf so I'll try to go one by one.

 

2 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Gerion is Jaqen BTW

I don't think he is, but if he is that would be revealed, I see no point in making it so and keeping it a secret.

 

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Where is Weasel? 

Agree, tho Arya can spot her as Nymeria maybe?

 

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What happened to Stonesnake? 

 I think there's a chance for Jon to meet him again, but it's likely he got turned into a wight and well never know. Maybe he's with Benjen?

 

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Who was behind Mandon Moore's attack of Tyrion? We can only speculate. LF. Varys. Cersei. Hotpie. (shrug) 

Deff we'll never know. (Tho my money's on LF)

 

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Who told on Arianne? 

Who poisoned Dany's locusts and who is the Harpy? Reznak. Green grace. Hizdahr. (shrug again) 

Might be, I have no strong feelings to weather we find out or not, not a clue.

 

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For which Hand was tunnel to Chataya's built? Tywin. Jon. Shrug o shrug 

Yeah, it'll never come back

 

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Hardhome and Summerhall? 

Hardhome I don't know, but Sumerhall we'll likely find out in Dunk and Egg (I mean that it is GRRM's plan, if he manages to write it, is another thing)

 

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Knight of the laughing tree? 

I'll group this one with Arianne and the locusts

 

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Who wrote Pink Letter? 

I think that if it wasn't Ramsay, and there are several reasons to believe it wasn't, and the letter is just filled with lies we'll find out, as it'd be apparent for the characters as well that it was a lie.

 

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Where do whores go? Tysha only. And the Sailor's Wife is Gerion's. See the Jaqen thread. 

Didn't George say they will meet again? Am I imagining that?

 

Another good one is the attempted killing of Bran, I doubt Joff was the culprit, but we'll likely never get a confirmation of who was.

[Loose Bolt]

I would like to know when certain things happened. For instance when Winterfell was sacked, how soon after that Red Wedding happened and when Ned lost his head. Another one is simple question who ruled Riverlands when Manderlys were exiled from Reach. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I also see no way in which his true parentage can be revealed (if he isn't Rhaegar's son) as Aegon clearly thinks he is a Targaryen.

If my theory about his parentage is correct, then septa Lemore is his mother, and her real name is Jeyne Swann, then his father is Barristan Selmy, and because Jeyne is not a Blackfyre, and Golden Company wouldn't have agreed to follow someone who is not a Blackfyre, then the only option that remains is that fAegon's other parent, his father, is a Blackfyre. Based on events that were happening at Westeros near the time of Barristan's birth, it seems likely that his mother was Aenys Blackfyre's daughter, thus fAegon is a Blackfyre thru his father. Barristan knows Jeyne, he saved her from the Kingswood Brotherhood, on the day when they conceived fAegon. So when Barristan will meet septa Lemore and he will recognize her, that's how readers will find out who fAegon's parents are. Also it's likely that septa Lemore is the Perfumed Seneschal, it's a parallel to her ancestor, Johanna Swann the Black Swan of Lys, who was a courtesan working at the Perfumed Garden, pleasure house owned by Lysandro Rogare (Larra Rogare is Johanna Swann's daughter, so all Blackfyres and Targaryens starting from Aegon IV are partially Swanns). In medieval times perfumes were made from jonquil oil. Barristan is a parallel to Florian the Fool, and Jeyne/Lemore is a parallel to Lady Jonquil. The story about those two was mentioned in "The Hedge Knight" novel, and in one scene of that novel puppets of Florian, Jonquil, and the mummer's dragon got burned on order given by Aerion Targaryen. Thus fAegon/the mummer's dragon will burn together with his parents - Lemore and Barristan. If that's how they will die, then my theory is correct, and even if GRRM will never directly reveal to readers who is who, what information he did already gave is enough to figure out who is who even without GRRM saying it.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I also think we'll never get an answer on Azor Ahai, if he's even real (which I seriously doubt) I think the point of that prophecy is to have he readers fool themselves, like characters fooled themselves about the bleeding star meaning whatever suit their needs, everyone will look at the "evidence" and most will reach a different conclusion, wether it's Danny, Jon, Arya or Hotpie, I think that by story's end we'll have several characters that might fit the role and no clear answer.

If Jon will take Dawn of Daynes (which is actually the original Lightbringer, forged by first Azor Ahai), and using that sword will defeat the Others, then it will be clear that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn. Though the thing is is that there are three Azor Ahais in this generation - Jon, Dany and Rhaego; three dragonriders, three heads of the dragon that together are Azor Ahai, they are like Biblical Holy Trinity - one God with three avatars - The Holy Spirit, The Father, and The Son; and in ASOIAF we have - The Holy Ghost, The Mother, and The Son.

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

So, anyway, what are other "things" you don't think would ever be answered even if the books are finished?

I think that it will be the opposite - GRRM will reveal all mysteries thru remaining books, thought he won't do it thru direct writing, he will write it using riddles, symbolism, and parallels to his other stories (for example Dunk&Egg novels, The World Book, and Fire&Blood is a medium thru which he gave to readers many clues about what is happening and what will happen in the main series), so majority of readers won't ever figure out what is what, even though it will be there, writen in the books. 

[CamiloRP]

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If my theory about his parentage is correct, then septa Lemore is his mother, and her real name is Jeyne Swann, then his father is Barristan Selmy, and because Jeyne is not a Blackfyre, and Golden Company wouldn't have agreed to follow someone who is not a Blackfyre, then the only option that remains is that fAegon's other parent, his father, is a Blackfyre. Based on events that were happening at Westeros near the time of Barristan's birth, it seems likely that his mother was Aenys Blackfyre's daughter, thus fAegon is a Blackfyre thru his father. Barristan knows Jeyne, he saved her from the Kingswood Brotherhood, on the day when they conceived fAegon. So when Barristan will meet septa Lemore and he will recognize her, that's how readers will find out who fAegon's parents are. Also it's likely that septa Lemore is the Perfumed Seneschal, it's a parallel to her ancestor, Johanna Swann the Black Swan of Lys, who was a courtesan working at the Perfumed Garden, pleasure house owned by Lysandro Rogare (Larra Rogare is Johanna Swann's daughter, so all Blackfyres and Targaryens starting from Aegon IV are partially Swanns). In medieval times perfumes were made from jonquil oil. Barristan is a parallel to Florian the Fool, and Jeyne/Lemore is a parallel to Lady Jonquil. The story about those two was mentioned in "The Hedge Knight" novel, and in one scene of that novel puppets of Florian, Jonquil, and the mummer's dragon got burned on order given by Aerion Targaryen. Thus fAegon/the mummer's dragon will burn together with his parents - Lemore and Barristan. If that's how they will die, then my theory is correct, and even if GRRM will never directly reveal to readers who is who, what information he did already gave is enough to figure out who is who even without GRRM saying it. 

that's a wild theory, do you have a link?
 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I think that it will be the opposite - GRRM will reveal all mysteries thru remaining books, thought he won't do it thru direct writing, he will write it using riddles, symbolism, and parallels to his other stories (for example Dunk&Egg novels, The World Book, and Fire&Blood is a medium thru which he gave to readers many clues about what is happening and what will happen in the main series), so majority of readers won't ever figure out what is what, even though it will be there, writen in the books. 

But riddles and symbolism aren't hard proof, people have taken them to mean any number of things and most of the times they don't, so it wouldn't be a reveal, might be a nod, a hint or just a misreading, we would never know unless the text says so.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

 

This one may be controversial, but I get the feeling Jon's parentage won't be spelled out completely either to him or the reader. The breadcrumbs have been left for us to follow, maybe a few more will be dropped along the way, but no clear revelation. Jon will do what his character is going to do, regardless of what his parentage is. 

Thats something I never thought of before, Jons heritage not being revealed , but it would be a great solution indeed.

Everyones grandchildren could still argue about it 50 years from now.

[Curled Finger]

Won't get answered. 

There are so many moving parts and the smallest cog, like say Olyvar Frey or Reynald Westerling throws information into a tailspin.  People and things are missing.   Will we ever learn what happens to the missing people?  Maybe 1 or 2, but not all of them.  It will take research along the lines of Lady Gwen's Lem Lemoncloak or Yolkboy's Red Star Bleeding to reveal some of them long after all is said and done.  It doesn't look like we will ever really know what the Others are, only perhaps, what they want. 

What actually happened to Benjen seems to be of little interest to GRRM as is Varys' real identity.   That's quite a well prepared back story he's got if he truly is a Blackfyre.   The nature of the Red Kings in light of all the information we have for the magical nature of the Warg and Barrows Kings seems a need to know only type of thing.  Are the COTF the Ifeqevron?  What the hell happened to Asshai?  What is Urrathon Night-Walker and why has he got a glass candle?  Will Maester Aemon's pickled body ever be disposed of properly?   

When you get to thinking about it, the list is numerous and nearly impossible to really sort.   

[Sigella]

TYREK

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Thats something I never thought of before, Jons heritage not being revealed , but it would be a great solution indeed.

Everyones grandchildren could still argue about it 50 years from now.

Well from an in universe perspective, if he does find out no one's going to take him seriously. What's he going to tell everyone? That his dead uncle told him? That his father's.. I mean uncle's crazy frog eating best friend told him? That his aunt.. I mean mom, left him a stone tablet saying he's king in the crypts? That his brother saw it in the trees? I just can't say I see him becoming king, at least by anyone believing in his Targaryen birthright. So what does learning about his heritage bring to the table for the character? Learning about it would almost take away from the character. Instead of being a bastard who forged his own destiny, he's just another cliche fantasy hidden prince. 

[Groo]

Implicit in the statement that we won't find out the truth about Aegon is that you don't believe, or are at least skeptical of, Varys and Illyrio's story of switching the babies. It isn't hard to picture how we might find out that is a lie. It would only take one scene of a conspirator admitting to someone that Aegon was really a Blackfyre or some other imposter. But what would it take to "prove" that the story is true? If it is true wouldn't the characters be more or less doing exactly what they are already doing?

[CamiloRP]

44 minutes ago, Sigella said:

TYREK

don't b crazy, Tyrek is endgame, he will rule The Westerlands after everything's said and done an Littlefinger seats the Iron Throne

[CamiloRP]

20 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well from an in universe perspective, if he does find out no one's going to take him seriously. What's he going to tell everyone? That his dead uncle told him? That his father's.. I mean uncle's crazy frog eating best friend told him? That his aunt.. I mean mom, left him a stone tablet saying he's king in the crypts? That his brother saw it in the trees? I just can't say I see him becoming king, at least by anyone believing in his Targaryen birthright. So what does learning about his heritage bring to the table for the character? Learning about it would almost take away from the character. Instead of being a bastard who forged his own destiny, he's just another cliche fantasy hidden prince. 

You summed up my problems with R+L=J quite nicely, tho I do think it's the most likely scenario still, and I don't think he quite forged his own destiny, he got to where he is mostly by being the son of Eddard and the nephew of Benjen.

[CamiloRP]

20 minutes ago, Groo said:

Implicit in the statement that we won't find out the truth about Aegon is that you don't believe, or are at least skeptical of, Varys and Illyrio's story of switching the babies. It isn't hard to picture how we might find out that is a lie. It would only take one scene of a conspirator admitting to someone that Aegon was really a Blackfyre or some other imposter. But what would it take to "prove" that the story is true? If it is true wouldn't the characters be more or less doing exactly what they are already doing?

Yes and no. I am skeptical of Aegon being just Aegon, but I am equally skeptical of him being a Blackfyre or a Valiryan looking no one, but I think GRRM has been quite deliberate in his hinting about him not being Aegon, and I think it is to make the point that it doesn't matter who he is, he's a shadow in the wall. It's not that I believe he's a fake, I believe it doens't matter who he is and that's the point.

If he was a Blackfyre I doubt anyone will tell him, he was raised as a Targaryen, he won't change and start to hate the surname he bears and he was thought to love since he was borne.

[Lord Lannister]

3 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

You summed up my problems with R+L=J quite nicely, tho I do think it's the most likely scenario still, and I don't think he quite forged his own destiny, he got to where he is mostly by being the son of Eddard and the nephew of Benjen.

I wasn't arguing that R+L isn't J. Just that no one in the story is going to take it seriously and learning about it wouldn't take Jon's story anywhere. A fair point about him riding his Stark coattails to virtually being handed the keys to Castle Black. But his Stark ancestry defines him much more than his Targaryen ancestry. I could see him becoming king beyond the wall or even king in the north, but not of the Seven Kingdoms. 

I could just see Martin seeding the evidence in the novels, but never flat out saying it, to make us the readers wonder what if. Stirring the imagination is what gets people engaged in things years after they're published after all. Like we are now.

[CamiloRP]

11 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I wasn't arguing that R+L isn't J. Just that no one in the story is going to take it seriously and learning about it wouldn't take Jon's story anywhere. A fair point about him riding his Stark coattails to virtually being handed the keys to Castle Black. But his Stark ancestry defines him much more than his Targaryen ancestry. I could see him becoming king beyond the wall or even king in the north, but not of the Seven Kingdoms. 

I could just see Martin seeding the evidence in the novels, but never flat out saying it, to make us the readers wonder what if. Stirring the imagination is what gets people engaged in things years after they're published after all. Like we are now.

With the first paragraph I absolutely agree, with the second, I hope.

 

[Rondo]

@CamiloRP

The identity of Azor Ahai has already been answered.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Aegon is most likely a Blackfyre, but whatever the case may be, that will be revealed because he is one of the lies that our heroine must slay.  

[Groo]

12 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I believe it doens't matter who he is and that's the point.

I hope I'm not reading too much into your comment but to me saying something is the "point" means it's the central part or conclusion of a character arc or a plot line. I doubt we'll get any Aegon POV chapters which would limit any kind of character arc where Aegon realizes it doesn't matter who he is. As for a plot line, wouldn't we need a lot more than just Varys' shadow on the wall riddle for readers to conclude, "ya know, it really is true that it doesn't matter who the ruler actually is or where he came from."