The real Jon Arryn

[Mrstrategy]

Was  Jon Arryn as honorable and noble as everyone believed or was Jon Arryn a Machiavellian plotter who is deceitful and honorless behind Robert rebellion and a anti-Targaryen who was as power hungry as Tywin ?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, Mrstrategy said:

who is deceitful and honorless behind Robert rebellion and a anti-Targaryen who was as power hungry as Tywin ?

I think Tywin is going too far, but yes, there was an anti Targ conspiracy. 5 kingdoms started marrying/building relations between themselves (The North, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Stromland and The Westerlands). There was clearly some conspiracy/ambition, at least if Barbrey has even a nugget of truth. As to the man himself, we can't really say anymore. My guess is that he was not the mastermind, just a willing part of the conspiracy (unlike Robert and Steffon). My guess would be that the mastermind were the maesters, getting panicky on how dragon obsessed the Targs became, and probably decided after they nearly hatched them at Summerhall to end their line.

[Canon Claude]

6 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

Was  Jon Arryn as honorable and noble as everyone believed or was Jon Arryn a Machiavellian plotter who is deceitful and honorless behind Robert rebellion and a anti-Targaryen who was as power hungry as Tywin ?

Jon Arryn was definitely noble to stand up for his wards against his own king. Robert and Eddard had committed no treason up to that point, and in fact it was the Targaryen royal family who had offended their families with Lyanna's disappearance. Whether she left willingly or not doesn't matter; it's not something that's done either way. She can't just elope, and Rhaegar can't abduct her even if he is a prince. As for an anti-Targaryen movement, it doesn't matter if there was such a movement happening. There had been no official treason launched, Aerys was just a paranoid nutcase and Rhaegar was a prophecy-obsessed sad boy. 

I don't think Jon Arryn can possibly be viewed as a monster. A bad husband, maybe, though he didn't enter that marriage entirely of his own design anyway, so I can't blame him too hard for that either (I prefer to blame Hoster Tully and Littlefinger for turning Lysa into what she is). 

Jon Arryn seems to have done nothing untoward with Robert or Eddard, and viewed them as his own adopted sons, especially after their fathers died and he lost his own heirs one by one. 

So no, I haven't noticed anything wrong with Jon Arryn except that he couldn't control Robert's hedonistic habits, but then again nobody could have done that.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Jon Arryn was definitely noble to stand up for his wards against his own king. Robert and Eddard had committed no treason up to that point, and in fact it was the Targaryen royal family who had offended their families with Lyanna's disappearance. Whether she left willingly or not doesn't matter; it's not something that's done either way. She can't just elope, and Rhaegar can't abduct her even if he is a prince. As for an anti-Targaryen movement, it doesn't matter if there was such a movement happening. There had been no official treason launched, Aerys was just a paranoid nutcase and Rhaegar was a prophecy-obsessed sad boy. 

I don't think Jon Arryn can possibly be viewed as a monster. A bad husband, maybe, though he didn't enter that marriage entirely of his own design anyway, so I can't blame him too hard for that either (I prefer to blame Hoster Tully and Littlefinger for turning Lysa into what she is). 

Jon Arryn seems to have done nothing untoward with Robert or Eddard, and viewed them as his own adopted sons, especially after their fathers died and he lost his own heirs one by one. 

So no, I haven't noticed anything wrong with Jon Arryn except that he couldn't control Robert's hedonistic habits, but then again nobody could have done that.

Did Jon Arryn ever mistreat Lysa?

[Canon Claude]

16 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Did Jon Arryn ever mistreat Lysa?

No, I didn't mean to imply that, but Lysa was clearly unhappy with him as a husband. Probably not Jon's fault, pardon my misleading post.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

No, I didn't mean to imply that, but Lysa was clearly unhappy with him as a husband. Probably not Jon's fault, pardon my misleading post.

Ah. Fair enough. I think that Lysa was unhappy with him for three reasons.

1) He was old enough to be her grandfather.

2) Se says that his seed was weak. Whether there stillbirths and miscarriages were all his fault seems unlikely to me, but I think he was part of it. He was married at least twice before and failed to produce an heir.

3) She was in love with Littlefinger.

[Arthur Peres]

He was honorable, but unlike Ned he was no fool.

For example, just like Ned he also opose Robert in chasing and killing Viserys and Dany. But unlike Ned he would not berate a man like Tywin just for honor alone, risking everything instead of being pratical.

[Angel Eyes]

10 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

No, I didn't mean to imply that, but Lysa was clearly unhappy with him as a husband. Probably not Jon's fault, pardon my misleading post.

At the least it was said to be a loveless marriage.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

19 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

Was  Jon Arryn as honorable and noble as everyone believed or was Jon Arryn a Machiavellian plotter who is deceitful and honorless behind Robert rebellion and a anti-Targaryen who was as power hungry as Tywin ?

No, he wasn't. I don't think he was plotting Robert's Rebellion. He didn't exactly rise in rebellion when his own nephew and heir was murdered by the Mad King. I think Aerys demanding Ned and Robert's heads was the straw that broke the camel's back. 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think Tywin is going too far, but yes, there was an anti Targ conspiracy. 5 kingdoms started marrying/building relations between themselves (The North, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Stromland and The Westerlands). There was clearly some conspiracy/ambition, at least if Barbrey has even a nugget of truth. As to the man himself, we can't really say anymore. My guess is that he was not the mastermind, just a willing part of the conspiracy (unlike Robert and Steffon). My guess would be that the mastermind were the maesters, getting panicky on how dragon obsessed the Targs became, and probably decided after they nearly hatched them at Summerhall to end their line.

It's kind of hard to say how involved Jon was in any anti-Targ conspiracy before the rebellion. Yes, he was fostering a Stark and a Baratheon, but he was not involved in any marriage alliances that we know of. We don't have any record of him attending the tourney at Harrenhal -- which presumably would have been a pro-Targaryen conspiracy anyway (or at least neutral) since it seemed aimed at putting Rhaegar on the throne.

Jon didn't turn anti-Targ until Aerys murdered his heir, Elbert, and then demanded Ned and Robert as well. And he didn't marry his way into the alliance until after the war had started, and even that came about only after the next heir after Elbert, Denys Arryn, was killed at the Battle of the Bells and then Denys' infant son died as well. And all of this took place before the rebellion was even focused on overthrowing the Targs and putting a Baratheon on the throne.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

We don't have any record of him attending the tourney at Harrenhal

He was at Harrenhal. It's in Ned XV when he has that dream of the tourney at Harrenhal.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

He was at Harrenhal. It's in Ned XV when he has that dream of the tourney at Harrenhal.

Tbf that's not saying much. From what it seems everybody was at Harrenhal

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Tbf that's not saying much. From what it seems everybody was at Harrenhal

Hoster Tully and his daughters weren't there. 

[John Suburbs]

23 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

He was at Harrenhal. It's in Ned XV when he has that dream of the tourney at Harrenhal.

Ah yes, so he was. Which makes sense considering Ned and Robert are both there. But again, this is not necessarily an anti-Targaryen plot if the purpose of this tourney was to figure out how to put Rhaegar on the throne.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

an anti-Targaryen plot if the purpose of this tourney was to figure out how to put Rhaegar on the throne.

Also not that many people were involved in the plot, that was the point of the tourney, to bring everybody in.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Ah yes, so he was. Which makes sense considering Ned and Robert are both there. But again, this is not necessarily an anti-Targaryen plot if the purpose of this tourney was to figure out how to put Rhaegar on the throne.

I don't think there's any anti-Targaryen plot going on between anyone at any time and that the idea of southron ambition is 100% overstated. I think it says it all when one of your so-called allies, Hoster Tully in this case, pulls a Walder Frey and negotiates a marriage to enter the war on the side of the rebels. And mind you, he's negotiating the marriage with Jon Arryn who has apparently part of this conspiracy. Either Hoster Tully is a faithless asshole (which he kind of is an asshole anyway with or without that) or there was no plotting going on with Jon Arryn to begin with. (I wrote a massive post about it in my wordpress. There's a link for it in my signature)

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Jon didn't turn anti-Targ until Aerys murdered his heir, Elbert, and then demanded Ned and Robert as well. And he didn't marry his way into the alliance until after the war had started, and even that came about only after the next heir after Elbert, Denys Arryn, was killed at the Battle of the Bells and then Denys' infant son died as well. And all of this took place before the rebellion was even focused on overthrowing the Targs and putting a Baratheon on the throne.

That's not entirely true. Jon's heir was still Denys Arryn when he got married. The marriage was entirely to bring Hoster Tully into the war on the rebels' side. Jon's marriage was before the Battle of the Bells, look it up. Hoster was injured in that battle, and he was only there after Jon had married Lysa. 

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

That's not entirely true. Jon's heir was still Denys Arryn when he got married. The marriage was entirely to bring Hoster Tully into the war on the rebels' side. Jon's marriage was before the Battle of the Bells, look it up. Hoster was injured in that battle, and he was only there after Jon had married Lysa. 

Everything I've ever read has Hoster and Ned riding to Stony Sept to defeat JonCon and rescue Robert. And this is when Denys died. Then they retreated to Riverrun for the double wedding. So the BotB was before the marriage. I'd be interested to see your sources.

[James Steller]

29 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Everything I've ever read has Hoster and Ned riding to Stony Sept to defeat JonCon and rescue Robert. And this is when Denys died. Then they retreated to Riverrun for the double wedding. So the BotB was before the marriage. I'd be interested to see your sources.

I was under the impression that the marriage deal was made before Denys died. Though now that you mention it, I could be wrong.

[Nathan Stark]

I don't think there ever was an anti-Targ conspiracy, so much as it was a matter of the great Houses figuring out the Targs needed them more than they needed the Targs. I think they would all have basically been fine with Rheagar on the Iron Throne. But then Rheagar had to screw it up by eloping with Lyanna. It's a shame really. He had it all made, but had to throw it all away by doing something stupid over a pretty girl.