Given Bran's vision of his ancestor killing a captive, how horrible were the Starks of old?

[Nathan Stark]

21 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Brilliant.  That's it, we demand textual context from here on.  Or we can ignore all the foolishness and have our own serious adventures in reading and unraveling the mysteries.  The choice is each of ours.  I love some crazy ideas just because they are crazy but I find it to be in very poor form to derail topics.  So rather than allow a good question or observation to devolve into a thing we all find boring and useless, let's reclaim it.   No one knows this story better than the people who read and read and read again.   This is westeros.org, not reddit.  

I feel cheated this conversation didn't get down to the Kings of Winter and 4 kings of the North and Wildlings behind the Wall and Nights Watch and dragons not going yonder and Others.   

You opened the door friend, so I will pick on your comment.  I submit that the early 1st Men were savage as much as any in our own beginnings.   That doesn't make them bad.  Social evolution is a process.  There was recently a topic over on 1 of the subforums where I asked if the 1st Men brought their magic, ie, abilities to warg, skin change and do all the cool stuff the Crannog Men seem to be able to do, or if they got it when they settled.   Might speak to the nature of magic in the North or not since we don't actually know the answer.   Either way, there are interesting tidbits about humanity and magic in it.  How about that ability to warg?  Are the Stark kids tempering the savage spirits of their wolves with their civility? What if Euron had a warg beast?  What would that thing be like?  Our wolves have their own personalities of sorts.  I bet Euron's critter would be rabid and stoned all the time.  

What do you think Nathan Stark?  

I think the First Men come by their skinchanging magic the old fashioned way: they interbred with the native Children of the Forest, who seem to be quite powerful with skinchanging and greenseeing magic. The Starks themselves seem to have come by the magic through their war with the Warg King. After they defeated him, they slew him and all his sons, but took his daughters as prizes. And the thing about this magic is that it seems to be inherited matrilineally. That's the short version of how the Starks come by their skinchanging genes. So my guess is that like the Andals, the First Men were not inherently magical when they came to Westeros, but they inherited magic after they settled.

The Stark children and their direwolves seem to influence each other, so it's not a one sided relationship. Just look at how Summer and Bran work off of each other as a team. Granted Bran had to learn how to pull back and not let Summer put too much wolf in him. But it does not seem to be completely one sided either way.

Euron will have a warg beast and his name will be Viserion. You heard it here first my friends.

[Curled Finger]

22 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I think the First Men come by their skinchanging magic the old fashioned way: they interbred with the native Children of the Forest, who seem to be quite powerful with skinchanging and greenseeing magic. The Starks themselves seem to have come by the magic through their war with the Warg King. After they defeated him, they slew him and all his sons, but took his daughters as prizes. And the thing about this magic is that it seems to be inherited matrilineally. That's the short version of how the Starks come by their skinchanging genes. So my guess is that like the Andals, the First Men were not inherently magical when they came to Westeros, but they inherited magic after they settled.

The Stark children and their direwolves seem to influence each other, so it's not a one sided relationship. Just look at how Summer and Bran work off of each other as a team. Granted Bran had to learn how to pull back and not let Summer put too much wolf in him. But it does not seem to be completely one sided either way.

Euron will have a warg beast and his name will be Viserion. You heard it here first my friends.

Thanks for being such a good sport, Man.  I hadn't actually considered Euron might have a dragon, but a stoned and rabid Viserion would be horrifying.

[Arakan]

Due to Ned and the Stark POVs from the beginning, many readers got a very wrong impression of House Stark. 
 

Ockham‘s razor: you don’t become and stay King of Winter for hundreds/thousands of years without being absolutely ruthless. Especially in an environment with houses like the Boltons, Umbers etc around. No one stays the ruling dynasty by always playing nice and honorable. If integrity is your prime motif, then better become an outlaw, not a dynasty of kings. The books made it very clear actually with Ned and Robb. And Stannis. 
 

The Starks all in all were no different than the Lannisters. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Arakan said:

Due to Ned and the Stark POVs from the beginning, many readers got a very wrong impression of House Stark. 
 

Ockham‘s razor: you don’t become and stay King of Winter for hundreds/thousands of years without being absolutely ruthless. Especially in an environment with houses like the Boltons, Umbers etc around. No one stays the ruling dynasty by always playing nice and honorable. If integrity is your prime motif, then better become an outlaw, not a dynasty of kings. The books made it very clear actually with Ned and Robb. And Stannis. 
 

The Starks all in all were no different than the Lannisters. 

I don't think one necessarily has to be Tywin Lannister, but one certainly has to be pretty ruthless.  Treason must be punished with death, unless there are very cogent reasons for offering mercy.  Potential enemies must fear the consequences of defying you, and in general, it is better for a ruler to be feared than to be loved, even if one would ideally want to be both loved and feared.

[Rondo]

On 11/8/2020 at 2:47 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The victim must be a loved one.  Otherwise it's not a sacrifice.  However, I don't think it's ridiculous to believe that the Starks of a few generations ago would have been dabbling in human sacrifice.  I am talking about Ned's father and grandfather.  The north is a backwater kingdom whose folks can keep secrets. 

They kept the custom of the lord's right to bang the brides on her wedding day despite it being illegal.  Human sacrifice is another sick tradition which persisted a long time.  

[TheLastWolf]

8 hours ago, Rondo said:

They kept the custom of the lord's right to bang the brides on her wedding day despite it being illegal

A few Umbers only. That too rumors. How funny to see people accepting rumors as true when it suits their biases. On the Forum and off it too. 

8 hours ago, Rondo said:

Human sacrifice is another sick tradition which persisted a long time.  

Blah blah blah. Didn't know you were GRRM,... George. How else can you be so sure about something that ain't in the text? Sry, correct it. Effing text

[Nathan Stark]

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

A few Umbers only. That too rumors. How funny to see people accepting rumors as true when it suits their biases. On the Forum and off it too. 

Blah blah blah. Didn't know you were GRRM,... George. How else can you be so sure about something that ain't in the text? Sry, correct it. Effing text

I mean, unless we're talking about Melisandre here, who literally sacrifices people to her fire god. Except she's not a Northerner, and neither is Stannis, who tolerates her brand of human sacrifice. All this speculation about Ned's father and brother sacrificing people is just that. Speculation. It certainly isn't supported in the text, as there would be rumors in universe of the Starks practicing sacrifice.

[CamiloRP]

43 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I mean, unless we're talking about Melisandre here, who literally sacrifices people to her fire god. Except she's not a Northerner, and neither is Stannis, who tolerates her brand of human sacrifice. All this speculation about Ned's father and brother sacrificing people is just that. Speculation. It certainly isn't supported in the text, as there would be rumors in universe of the Starks practicing sacrifice.

Just here to point out that I eloquently (if I dare say so myself) pointed out this along with a lot of evidence against various claims in this thread. I got completely ignored, as will you and @TheLastWolf 

[Darth Sidious]

18 hours ago, Rondo said:

They kept the custom of the lord's right to bang the brides on her wedding day despite it being illegal.  Human sacrifice is another sick tradition which persisted a long time.  

Something extreme would have had to happen in order to stop them from carrying out human sacrifice.  I suspect it had to do with the conquest.  The Targaryens learned a lot of the northern practices during good Queen Allysanne's visit and she may have made the sacrifices illegal.  That formally ends the practice but it continued secretly until the death of Rickard Stark.

[TheLastWolf]

6 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

That formally ends the practice but it continued secretly until the death of Rickard Stark.

 

9 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

thread. I got completely ignored, as will you and @TheLastWolf

You were saying something Cam? 

[Nathan Stark]

19 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Something extreme would have had to happen in order to stop them from carrying out human sacrifice.  I suspect it had to do with the conquest.  The Targaryens learned a lot of the northern practices during good Queen Allysanne's visit and she may have made the sacrifices illegal.  That formally ends the practice but it continued secretly until the death of Rickard Stark.

So where's your evidence of secret human sacrifice? That's what I want to know. What makes this line of argument more than mere conjecture? Because it certainly is not implied anywhere in anything George R. R. Martin has written.

[Roswell]

On 11/12/2020 at 3:59 AM, Arakan said:

Due to Ned and the Stark POVs from the beginning, many readers got a very wrong impression of House Stark. 
 

Ockham‘s razor: you don’t become and stay King of Winter for hundreds/thousands of years without being absolutely ruthless. Especially in an environment with houses like the Boltons, Umbers etc around. No one stays the ruling dynasty by always playing nice and honorable. If integrity is your prime motif, then better become an outlaw, not a dynasty of kings. The books made it very clear actually with Ned and Robb. And Stannis. 
 

The Starks all in all were no different than the Lannisters. 

The Lannisters are ruthless but they don't sacrifice people to the tree.  But either way, murder is murder.  And the Lannisters have sent more people to their graves than just about anybody in recent times.  You're right about the families being equal overall.  

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 11/12/2020 at 3:09 AM, SeanF said:

it is better for a ruler to be feared than to be loved, even if one would ideally want to be both loved and feared.

 

Completely disagree, the books are showing us that fear has limited currency and doesn't last as long as other methods. In this world "love" doesn't mean passivity, it means using politics. You know, something other than a fist to the face or an army to spread terror. 

As for the OP's topic, the First Men aren't necessarily the Starks. We know that these groups split off and fought each other. I think Bran represents the alliance between the First Men and the Children, as well as Stark blood. He has it all. The fact is, the Starks rejected warging at some point, but they also respected other traditions of the First Men that they learned from the Children. They seemed to have moved away from primitivism, but perhaps a bit too far, and Bran is there to learn about the wisdom of the Old Way.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 11/12/2020 at 12:59 AM, Arakan said:

Ockham‘s razor: you don’t become and stay King of Winter for hundreds/thousands of years without being absolutely ruthless. Especially in an environment with houses like the Boltons, Umbers etc around. No one stays the ruling dynasty by always playing nice and honorable. If integrity is your prime motif, then better become an outlaw, not a dynasty of kings. The books made it very clear actually with Ned and Robb. And Stannis. 

The hammer will also fall for the people who went completely in the opposite direction: the too ruthless types. It will fall like it did for Theon, Aerys, Balon, Tywin, Dareon, Viserys, ect. We know the "model" for leadership isn't Stoneheart, Boltons, Cersei, Walder Frey, ect. Gosh, maybe there's another way forward...whomever will show us the way?????

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

15 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The hammer will also fall for the people who went completely in the opposite direction: the too ruthless types. It will fall like it did for Theon, Aerys, Balon, Tywin, Dareon, Viserys, ect. We know the "model" for leadership isn't Stoneheart, Boltons, Cersei, Walder Frey, ect. Gosh, maybe there's another way forward...whomever will show us the way?????

You may be right about those people you mentioned but you also have to include Jon Snow, Stannis, and Robb Stark among those who led poorly. 

[TheLastWolf]

4 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

You may be right about those people you mentioned but you also have to include Jon Snow, Stannis, and Robb Stark among those who led poorly. 

He doesn't have to, because he/she (latter probably) isn't an irrationally biased hater of the above mentioned characters and more..... If iam right in judging her (or him, which is less likely) 

[SeanF]

22 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

Completely disagree, the books are showing us that fear has limited currency and doesn't last as long as other methods. In this world "love" doesn't mean passivity, it means using politics. You know, something other than a fist to the face or an army to spread terror. 

As for the OP's topic, the First Men aren't necessarily the Starks. We know that these groups split off and fought each other. I think Bran represents the alliance between the First Men and the Children, as well as Stark blood. He has it all. The fact is, the Starks rejected warging at some point, but they also respected other traditions of the First Men that they learned from the Children. They seemed to have moved away from primitivism, but perhaps a bit too far, and Bran is there to learn about the wisdom of the Old Way.

Soft power matters, but no one can govern successfully in a medieval world without people knowing that the price of rebellion will be terrible.  People like Aenys I and Tytos Lannister were terrible for their subjects, because nobody feared to defy them.  The vassals of kings and great lords are ready to pounce, at the first sign of weakness.

[Rose of Red Lake]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

Soft power matters, but no one can govern successfully in a medieval world without people knowing that the price of rebellion will be terrible.  People like Aenys I and Tytos Lannister were terrible for their subjects, because nobody feared to defy them.  The vassals of kings and great lords are ready to pounce, at the first sign of weakness.

Look at Catelyn's advice to Robb. She doesn't tell him to constantly use fear and it's The Only Way To Rule. She says they need to fear him a little. It means using it in small doses, not relying on it as a crutch or going ham on it.

[Nathan Stark]

I have to agree with @Rose of Red Lake here somewhat. There is some place for Machiavellian politics here, but Tywin Lannister for example takes things way too far. He exterminated entire familes whom he had just defeated and were offering to surrender, just to make a point. We actually know that House Stark wouldn't have treated the Reynes and Tarbecks the way Tywin did. Know why? Members of those Houses offered to take the black, and Tywin still killed them. The Starks would have sent them off to the Wall, because they actually respect the Nights Watch.

[Rondo]

Ned's values may differ because his youth was influenced by other people.  He was a watered down Northman.  Many of his fellow northern lords only make it out of the north to go to war.  Ned had exposure.  The north is an isolated region.  Human sacrifice can be practiced by the Starks and the secret would remain that way.  I don't believe this of Ned but his parents were probably watering their family tree with human blood.