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Given Bran's vision of his ancestor killing a captive, how horrible were the Starks of old?


Rondo

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I very much enjoy reading your posts! I don't have the app either. It's canon but comes with the unreliable narrator caveat. 

 Well, Jon tells Ygritte that the Wall is made of ice and she tells him he knows nothing, that the Wall is made of blood.  Blood fed to the weirwood who maintain the magic of the Wall perhaps?  I'm also thinking of the Black Gate in connection to the weirwood at Whitehall.  The thing with power that Jon can feel, that terrifies the rest of the NW.  A mouth full of charred wood, ashes and bones.  It may well power the gate.

Blood very well have something to do with maintaining magical power of the weirnet in general.  I do think that when a tree is given a face;  it's given the face of the one who is sacrificed.  That seems to be part of wildling lore if you consider the drunken ash, old chestnut and the big oak Jon sees on the way to Molestown.  

I also think Benjen and Jon were meant to go to the Wall and this is a long tradition or duty with the Starks.  I think it's as much a thing as the Stark words that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell (because) Winter is Coming.  This could all be dependent on the terms of the Pact beyond the division of territory.  In other words, the part of the agreement the Starks have forgotten if Jojen is anything to go by.   

At this point I don't know what protection the Wall provides if it isn't to block undead revenants, white walkers and the killing cold.  It may also stop dragons from going north beyond the Wall.  An ice Wall that is 400 miles long will certainly affect the climate and ultimately, I think it has to come down to restore balance.

If it is meant for protection, it seems more likely to me that protecting what lies north of the Wall, the last refuge of the COTF and their greenseers is it's purpose.  We have Melisandre at the Wall, who burns down weirwoods, searching for the ancient enemy and Euron who is making it his purpose to kill all the gods including 'the small gods.  I'd say the WW's are tooling up for this confrontation more than anything.  It may be part of the Pact for Starks to provide this protection.

Of course anything I say could be hogwash.  So I will invoke the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principles. :)

Man, LynnS, you never fail to impress.  Gads how utterly illuminating to look at things upside down from my normal view.   Here I am thinking The Pact, blood sacrifice, The Wall, weirwoods--all assembled to protect the 1st Men when they could all be in place to protect what lies north of the Wall from 1st Men!  Wow.  It's forming and hazy, but I'm getting quite a spin on the point and purpose of the Others.   Alternatives are good!  

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16 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

It is possible.  The chain of duty was broken when Rickard died without getting the chance to pass on the knowledge to his second son.  That or perhaps Eddard considered the tradition a barbaric nonsense and refused to maintain the custom.  This could be another lovely way to work Lyanna's backstory into the plot.  Lyanna got pregnant with (take your pick: Brandon, Rhaegar, Mance, whoever) and knew a son would be sacrificed.  Enough motivation to run away, right.  Gilly would not be the first mom to run off and save her son.  Craster got along with the Others by donating his sons.  The Starks were doing the same thing and more.  Not only Stark sons were sacrificed but any victim who would not be missed in the north.  Bastards.  Inconvenient babies and children.  

The Others would have great numbers if they could accept just any discarded boy from the Wildlings.  Why did it have to be Craster's son?  It is perhaps because Craster is related to the Night's King, who was a Stark.

And both boys remain in the north as if fate cannot be avoided.  The white walkers want Lyanna's son and Craster's.  I like it if both were owed to the white walkers.  

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What if the human sacrifice tradition did not come from gods.  Didn't George say there are no gods?  Picture the problem of unwanted babies.  The lords have always taken liberties with all of the comely maidens in his territory.  A lot of unwanted bastards would result.  The baby can't always be near the bastard gate for disposal.  It's too much time to carry the baby to the gate.  So the Starks and the other ruling families invented the ritual of human sacrifice to get rid of political undesirables and unwanted babies for those too far from the wall.  Like themselves.  The White Walkers were able to save those who are left outside the Gate.  These and the sons of Craster make up their ranks.  Man's sin is coming home to haunt him.  

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On 10/9/2020 at 2:56 AM, Aemon Darkbrother said:

The women in the vision may have been the daughter of brandon the daughterless. I wonder if Baels story may be an inverse of R+L=J. Basically its a rape thats remembered as a romance. Also we don't know if the captive was an innocent. This may have been a vision of lady Stark sacrificing a condemned man in hopes that Baels child be born a male that could be raised to into the lord of Winterfell.

The scene happened before the time of Bael.  It happened at the founding of Winterfell when the first stones were laid.  Ofcourse the castle was built upon over the millennia but this happened while the foundation was still young. 

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19 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

What if the human sacrifice tradition did not come from gods.  Didn't George say there are no gods?  Picture the problem of unwanted babies.  The lords have always taken liberties with all of the comely maidens in his territory.  A lot of unwanted bastards would result.  The baby can't always be near the bastard gate for disposal.  It's too much time to carry the baby to the gate.  So the Starks and the other ruling families invented the ritual of human sacrifice to get rid of political undesirables and unwanted babies for those too far from the wall.  Like themselves.  The White Walkers were able to save those who are left outside the Gate.  These and the sons of Craster make up their ranks.  Man's sin is coming home to haunt him.  

I like that. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/8/2020 at 6:08 PM, Rondo said:

Bran was given a vision of one of his ancestors murdering a captive and feeding his blood to the Stark's weirwood tree.   So the Starks of old were practitioners of human sacrifice.  Is it possible that this practice only ended with the deaths of Rickard and Brandon Stark?  Ned was too young to inherit the family tradition.  

Ned has this weak spot for children.  It is like him to refuse to continue a bloody family tradition such as that.  I do not think Arya would hesitate to sacrifice children to the heart tree.  Brandon and Lyanna, the lord of winter and the priestess of the Old Gods.  I could see them killing people for the tree.  The feeding skipped a generation in Ned because those two died.  The kids will pick it up.  Jon and Arya would in order to feed Bran

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On 10/17/2020 at 5:37 PM, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

What if the human sacrifice tradition did not come from gods.  Didn't George say there are no gods?  Picture the problem of unwanted babies.  The lords have always taken liberties with all of the comely maidens in his territory.  A lot of unwanted bastards would result.  The baby can't always be near the bastard gate for disposal.  It's too much time to carry the baby to the gate.  So the Starks and the other ruling families invented the ritual of human sacrifice to get rid of political undesirables and unwanted babies for those too far from the wall.  Like themselves.  The White Walkers were able to save those who are left outside the Gate.  These and the sons of Craster make up their ranks.  Man's sin is coming home to haunt him.  

Baby disposal was a part of it but belief in the old gods also drove them to sacrifice humans to the trees. 

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Horrible.  They fed humans to the trees and the "gods".  Each victim killed was an offering to the gods.  Like serving dinner.  The Starks were servants and worshippers.  Craster was doing the same thing.  The WW left him alone as long as he was paying the blood price.  Craster was sacrificing his own but the Starks were worse if they were murdering innocent people from outside the family.  The family should sacrifice each other if they are the ones who benefit from the god's blessings.  

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On 10/26/2020 at 8:56 PM, Wisconsin said:

Ned has this weak spot for children.  It is like him to refuse to continue a bloody family tradition such as that.  I do not think Arya would hesitate to sacrifice children to the heart tree.  Brandon and Lyanna, the lord of winter and the priestess of the Old Gods.  I could see them killing people for the tree.  The feeding skipped a generation in Ned because those two died.  The kids will pick it up.  Jon and Arya would in order to feed Bran

The "gods" had to fast and the Stark fortunes fell.  :D

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9 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Horrible.  They fed humans to the trees and the "gods".  Each victim killed was an offering to the gods.  Like serving dinner.  The Starks were servants and worshippers.  Craster was doing the same thing.  The WW left him alone as long as he was paying the blood price.  Craster was sacrificing his own but the Starks were worse if they were murdering innocent people from outside the family.  The family should sacrifice each other if they are the ones who benefit from the god's blessings.  

There might have been a time during Long Night when only those people who paid that blood tax to "gods" survived and those who did not paid that were wiped out. Besides there is a chance that deal was one reason why Starks could rise from one of many petty kings to dominant house in the North.

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the "religion" of the first men seems sort of cargo cult to me. In fact they are praying to remaining parts of CoTF supercomputer, same with the sacrifice. i am not convinced if this sort of system needs human worship to work.

 

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Maybe it wasn't sacrificing a captive but executing a criminal before the Gods.

in TWOW preview scene where Asha tries to save Theon from being burned alive by Stannis she suggests that he instead kill him with a sword beneath a weirwood. I find this confusing because its the northern way - don't ironborn want to die with a sword in their hand? Shouldn't she beg for Theon to be allowed to fight for his life in a trial by combat or something?

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27 minutes ago, Castellan said:

Maybe it wasn't sacrificing a captive but executing a criminal before the Gods.

in TWOW preview scene where Asha tries to save Theon from being burned alive by Stannis she suggests that he instead kill him with a sword beneath a weirwood. I find this confusing because its the northern way - don't ironborn want to die with a sword in their hand? Shouldn't she beg for Theon to be allowed to fight for his life in a trial by combat or something?

Yes, it makes sense. We even have this bit below.

TWoIaF, The North

“The men of the North are descendants of the First Men, their blood only slowly mingling with that of the Andals who overwhelmed the kingdoms to the south. The original language of the First Men—known as the Old Tongue—has come to be spoken only by the wildlings beyond the Wall, and many other aspects of their culture have faded away (such as the grislier aspects of their worship, when criminals and traitors were killed and their bodies and entrails hung from the branches of weirwoods.)”

So, it seems this was a common way for the First Men of old to execute criminals and traitors, and the text also indicates the custom has “faded away”.

TWoW spoilers below.

Spoiler

As to Asha, there’s a couple of things worth considering... she’s been spending a lot of time with Alysane Mormont, and the two women seem to have developed a bond. Maybe they talked about this? But more importantly, I think Asha doesn’t feel hopeful that she’d be able to convince Stannis to spare Theon; in fact, Stannis tells her flat out that he won’t. And ultimately I believe Asha wants to at least spare Theon the excruciating pain of burning alive.  

 

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18 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Horrible.  They fed humans to the trees and the "gods".  Each victim killed was an offering to the gods.  Like serving dinner.  The Starks were servants and worshippers.  Craster was doing the same thing.  The WW left him alone as long as he was paying the blood price.  Craster was sacrificing his own but the Starks were worse if they were murdering innocent people from outside the family.  The family should sacrifice each other if they are the ones who benefit from the god's blessings.  

I can't see the Starks sacrificing their own.  They're too much like a pack for that.  But they would sacrifice an innocent somebody they don't like. 

9 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

There might have been a time during Long Night when only those people who paid that blood tax to "gods" survived and those who did not paid that were wiped out. Besides there is a chance that deal was one reason why Starks could rise from one of many petty kings to dominant house in the North.

Yup

18 hours ago, Jeeves said:

The "gods" had to fast and the Stark fortunes fell.  :D

Their luck actually got better.  Best Bud Bob became king.  Luck ran out when Number 1 Son broke his oath to House Frey.  It's not the doing of the gods. 

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On 10/16/2020 at 9:49 AM, LynnS said:

 I'm also thinking of the Black Gate in connection to the weirwood at Whitehall.  The thing with power that Jon can feel, that terrifies the rest of the NW.  A mouth full of charred wood, ashes and bones.  It may well power the gate.

@LynnS Could you clarify some of this.

1) What/where is Whitehall? Don't recall any place by that name.

2) When does "The thing with power that Jon can feel, that terrifies the rest of NW" happen? I can imaging some times/places, but would you mind specifying. (Don't want to misunderstand the points being made here.) Same for "A mouth full of charred wood, ashes and bones."

ETA: May have answered it myself. This might be about the village of Whitetree.

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11 hours ago, SeanF said:

Human sacrifice works best if you sacrifice someone who is really dear to you, like the king of Moab burning his son, in return for victory over Israel.

I want to see one of the Starks sacrifice another Stark to their gods.  I could see Bran sacrificing Jon and Arya to feed their weirwood network. 

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