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Given Bran's vision of his ancestor killing a captive, how horrible were the Starks of old?


Rondo

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OK, so I really screwed up the quoting thingy. What I first wrote disappeared into cyberspace and was supplanted by my follow-up comment above.

What I first wrote is that the OP poses an interesting question, but I'd like to widen it to encompass all pre-Andal First Men cultures, especially after the FM-COTF Pact, after which the FM apparently adopted the COTF Old Gods religion in some form - might be in some altered form.

However, TWOIAF's section on Garth the Green - a progenitor figure in the Reach apparently way before the Pact - also hints at darker and grislier practices. Possibly human sacrafice.

Would the sacraficees have been "criminals" or "traitors"? Possibly. If the trees only require blood to feed them. But executing a criminal isn't exactly a sacrafice - the guy would be killed anyway. For a sacrafice to have meaning to the sacraficer, to make it a sacrafice, it needs to have personal meaning, not just any old criminal. Compare, in the present timeline, Stannis willing to sacrafice his bastard nephew Edric Storm (and contrast Ned and his bastard nephew...).  Killing/executing/sacraficing your enemies or common criminals isn't exactly a sacrafice to you, is it?

The trees might only require blood, any blood, but for the religious aspect for the sacraficer, it has to be meaningful.

From what I've read in the canon books, I think FM practiced some kind of human sacrafice - even before the FM-COTF Pact - but the practice has faded away. I do not think Rickard and Brandon were at it, unbeknowst to Ned.

In summary, early Starks - like other FM houses - did dabble in human sacrafice. Early Starks, who eventially subdued all the North, were ruthless, hard men. I wouldn't put human "sacrafice" - of political rivals or criminals -  past  them. Bran's vision - and I think the human sacrafice he saw was a part of Stark family history - is maybe millenia in the past. We don't know. However, I think it's ridiculous to posit that the present-day (give it a few hundred years back) Starks were somehow secretly sacraficing people. There would be rumors, stories. Like there are rumours and stories about the Boltons.

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On 10/11/2020 at 4:24 AM, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

Well, it's the starks... There must be some explanation of how the rituals of hanging innocent people's entrails on tree branches was something honorable

Innocent? You think the benevolent slavers from the Stepstones were innocent?!? Next you'll be excusing Dany's appeasement policy and the Meereenese and Yunkish and Astapori slavemasters.

Brandon Ice Eyes overcame the slavers and gave them to the freed slaves, who proceeded to slaughter them and hang their entrails from the trees.  This is from ADWD Davos IV

Quote

"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

Apparently hanging entrails from the trees was some sort of a religious practice. A form of blood sacrafice? Anyway, it wasn't the Stark who did it, it was the freed people, so it seems to me such practices, partly religious, partly plain vengeanceful, were common enough in the North at the time to not engender widespread protest.

It's just an old story. Present-day Northeners might find it a bit barbaric and grisly and would condemn such actions in the present day, I'd think. Present-day Northeners keep the Old Gods but are very much influenced by Andal culture, including the Faith of the Seven. Not adopting the Faith but becoming increasingly sensible of its tenents. Heck, Ned even had a Sept built for his lady wife.

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2 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

OK, so I really screwed up the quoting thingy. What I first wrote disappeared into cyberspace and was supplanted by my follow-up comment above.

What I first wrote is that the OP poses an interesting question, but I'd like to widen it to encompass all pre-Andal First Men cultures, especially after the FM-COTF Pact, after which the FM apparently adopted the COTF Old Gods religion in some form - might be in some altered form.

However, TWOIAF's section on Garth the Green - a progenitor figure in the Reach apparently way before the Pact - also hints at darker and grislier practices. Possibly human sacrafice.

Would the sacraficees have been "criminals" or "traitors"? Possibly. If the trees only require blood to feed them. But executing a criminal isn't exactly a sacrafice - the guy would be killed anyway. For a sacrafice to have meaning to the sacraficer, to make it a sacrafice, it needs to have personal meaning, not just any old criminal. Compare, in the present timeline, Stannis willing to sacrafice his bastard nephew Edric Storm (and contrast Ned and his bastard nephew...).  Killing/executing/sacraficing your enemies or common criminals isn't exactly a sacrafice to you, is it?

The trees might only require blood, any blood, but for the religious aspect for the sacraficer, it has to be meaningful.

From what I've read in the canon books, I think FM practiced some kind of human sacrafice - even before the FM-COTF Pact - but the practice has faded away. I do not think Rickard and Brandon were at it, unbeknowst to Ned.

In summary, early Starks - like other FM houses - did dabble in human sacrafice. Early Starks, who eventially subdued all the North, were ruthless, hard men. I wouldn't put human "sacrafice" - of political rivals or criminals -  past  them. Bran's vision - and I think the human sacrafice he saw was a part of Stark family history - is maybe millenia in the past. We don't know. However, I think it's ridiculous to posit that the present-day (give it a few hundred years back) Starks were somehow secretly sacraficing people. There would be rumors, stories. Like there are rumours and stories about the Boltons.

The victim must be a loved one.  Otherwise it's not a sacrifice.  However, I don't think it's ridiculous to believe that the Starks of a few generations ago would have been dabbling in human sacrifice.  I am talking about Ned's father and grandfather.  The north is a backwater kingdom whose folks can keep secrets. 

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10 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The victim must be a loved one.  Otherwise it's not a sacrifice.  However, I don't think it's ridiculous to believe that the Starks of a few generations ago would have been dabbling in human sacrifice.  I am talking about Ned's father and grandfather.  The north is a backwater kingdom whose folks can keep secrets. 

How many are "a few generations ago"?

I cannot imagine Rickard dabbling in Old Gods magic. He was a "moderniser" in the North. Sent his second son to be fostered in the Vale, which is Andal "honour" central. Bethroded his firstborn son to a Southron house (Tully), bethroded his daughter to another Southron house (Baratheon). Seems very Andalish to me, not a very convinced Old Gods believer.

In contrast, Ned seems far more Old Gods believer, maybe as a reaction to his father forgetting their roots, their history. Ned definitely did not want to dabble in southron politics but was forced into it by Bobby B.

I have no doubt that the Starks of old were ruthless, hard people. Executed political rivals, maybe in front of a heart tree. A kind of a trial. You cannot lie before a heart tree. It doesn't matter whether this is true, it is enough that people believe it - a version of our Western world of people swearing on the Bible.

It seems to me that the Old Gods religion of the First Men did include human sacrafice, maybe as a misunderstanding/travesty of the COTF religion, but the human sacrafice practice had become obsolete and forgotten long before the present timeline.

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5 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

So there actually might have been very good reasons why Starks sacrificed people.

It depends on who you ask.

 

Quote
"If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"
"Everything," said Davos, softly.

And I think the text is in Davos's side

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1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The victim must be a loved one.  Otherwise it's not a sacrifice.  However, I don't think it's ridiculous to believe that the Starks of a few generations ago would have been dabbling in human sacrifice.  I am talking about Ned's father and grandfather.  The north is a backwater kingdom whose folks can keep secrets. 

What are your reasons to believe such things?

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1 hour ago, talvikorppi said:

In contrast, Ned seems far more Old Gods believer, maybe as a reaction to his father forgetting their roots, their history. Ned definitely did not want to dabble in southron politics but was forced into it by Bobby B.

This really does seem inconsistent with Ned's reverence of the old gods, especially since he was fostered with Jon Arryn.  I wonder if his contact with Howland Reed has something to do with it.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too.

 

.I've always wondered about the 'terrible things'.

 

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I thought it was spelled out pretty clearly in TwoIaF that the Starks n the first men both practised blood sacrifice by executing criminals before a Weirwood n then hanging the entrails on the branches instead of just beheading them on an ironwood chopping block somewhere random like Ned did. The Starks were said to have been very harsh and done ‘terrible things’ in Brans PoV so they probably practised sacrifice of the criminals as did all the first men probably as shown by the earliest tales of Garth the Green demanding sacrifice which I think is probably true. I’d imagine the practise probably faded after the Andals arrived as it would’ve been looked down upon, however the World book does state that human sacrifice was still being practised in White Harbour 500 Years ago, which is only 200 years before Aegon I, meaning that it would’ve faded away probably not long before Torrhen Stark as Fire & Blood makes no mention of Alaric partaking in the practise.

Ultimately, we don’t really know all that much yet until we get more Bran POV’s in TWOW so until then a lot of it is a lot of guesswork as TwoIaF didn’t give us nearly as much info as I thought we were gonna get when it first came out. :dunno:

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On 11/4/2020 at 6:26 PM, U. B. Cool said:

Human sacrifice was widely practiced by the First Men.  The ones who worshiped the Old Gods.  It's not unlike the mass sacrifices of the mesoamerican people like the Olmecs.  The Starks being one of the powerful first men clans, they must have had the most enthusiasm for this custom.  They got rid of people they didn't like. 

I daresay that the wildlings still practice sacrifice if the drunken ash, the old chestnut and the angry oak that Jon sees on the way to Molestown are anything to go by.  

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I daresay that the wildlings still practice sacrifice if the drunken ash, the old chestnut and the angry oak that Jon sees on the way to Molestown are anything to go by.  

Craster was giving the White Walkers his own boys.  For that, they left him alone and maybe even protected him.  That village, who knows which gods they were sacrificing to.  The ones where they found bones inside the tree.

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On 11/7/2020 at 3:53 PM, Nathan Stark said:

I knew this particular thread was headed for tinfoil Stark hate when commentors started speculating that Ned's father and brother were secretly sacrificing people. Whatever. Can folks at least find text based reasons to support their arguments? Or just let GRRM tell his story the way he decides to tell it? There's a lot we don't know know about the ancient First Men and the Stark ancestors. It seems kind of early to jump to conclusions about how savage they were.

Brilliant.  That's it, we demand textual context from here on.  Or we can ignore all the foolishness and have our own serious adventures in reading and unraveling the mysteries.  The choice is each of ours.  I love some crazy ideas just because they are crazy but I find it to be in very poor form to derail topics.  So rather than allow a good question or observation to devolve into a thing we all find boring and useless, let's reclaim it.   No one knows this story better than the people who read and read and read again.   This is westeros.org, not reddit.  

I feel cheated this conversation didn't get down to the Kings of Winter and 4 kings of the North and Wildlings behind the Wall and Nights Watch and dragons not going yonder and Others.   

You opened the door friend, so I will pick on your comment.  I submit that the early 1st Men were savage as much as any in our own beginnings.   That doesn't make them bad.  Social evolution is a process.  There was recently a topic over on 1 of the subforums where I asked if the 1st Men brought their magic, ie, abilities to warg, skin change and do all the cool stuff the Crannog Men seem to be able to do, or if they got it when they settled.   Might speak to the nature of magic in the North or not since we don't actually know the answer.   Either way, there are interesting tidbits about humanity and magic in it.  How about that ability to warg?  Are the Stark kids tempering the savage spirits of their wolves with their civility? What if Euron had a warg beast?  What would that thing be like?  Our wolves have their own personalities of sorts.  I bet Euron's critter would be rabid and stoned all the time.  

What do you think Nathan Stark?  

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21 hours ago, LynnS said:

I daresay that the wildlings still practice sacrifice if the drunken ash, the old chestnut and the angry oak that Jon sees on the way to Molestown are anything to go by.  

OK, twice in less than 24 hours you lit me up with something I hadn't considered before.  The faces on the weirwoods are so interesting.   Do you know if anyone has looked at them in total?   I mean this is the 1st time I've ever seen the faces pointed to as a sign of anything, much less sacrifice--Gads, LynnS, makes me wonder what else we could divine from these expressions.   Can you point me to the descriptions?   I would like to read the precise text to see if I may discern anything at all in them?  

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14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

OK, twice in less than 24 hours you lit me up with something I hadn't considered before.  The faces on the weirwoods are so interesting.   Do you know if anyone has looked at them in total?   I mean this is the 1st time I've ever seen the faces pointed to as a sign of anything, much less sacrifice--Gads, LynnS, makes me wonder what else we could divine from these expressions.   Can you point me to the descriptions?   I would like to read the precise text to see if I may discern anything at all in them?  

Let me get you started. First tree on the way to Moles Town:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

A light snow began to fall as the column made its way south along the kingsroad, the long line of wagons wending past fields and streams and wooded hillsides, with a dozen spearmen and a dozen archers riding escort. The last few trips had seen some ugliness at Mole's Town, a little pushing and shoving, some muttered curses, a lot of sullen looks. Bowen Marsh felt it best not to take chances, and for once he and Jon were agreed.

The Lord Steward led the way. Jon rode a few yards back, Dolorous Edd Tollett at his side. Half a mile south of Castle Black, Edd urged his garron close to Jon's and said, "M'lord? Look up there. The big drunkard on the hill."

The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.

Second tree: 

Quote

Dance with Dragons - Jon V

Jon glanced back at the face, wondering who had carved it. He had posted guards around Mole's Town, both to keep his crows away from the wildling women and to keep the free folk from slipping off southward to raid. Whoever had carved up the ash had eluded his sentries, plainly. And if one man could slip through the cordon, others could as well. I could double the guard again, he thought sourly. Waste twice as many men, men who might otherwise be walking the Wall.

The wagons continued on their slow way south through frozen mud and blowing snow. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. "Twice as much trouble," announced Dolorous Edd.

The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying, "Corn, corn, corn."

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Third tree:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

The brothers on the wagons had seen this face as well, Jon did not doubt. No one spoke of it, but the message was plain to read for any man with eyes. Jon had once heard Mance Rayder say that most kneelers were sheep. "Now, a dog can herd a flock of sheep," the King-Beyond-the-Wall had said, "but free folk, well, some are shadowcats and some are stones. One kind prowls where they please and will tear your dogs to pieces. The other will not move at all unless you kick them." Neither shadowcats nor stones were like to give up the gods they had worshiped all their lives to bow down before one they hardly knew.

Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. The faces that the First Men and the children of the forest had carved into the weirwoods in eons past had stern or savage visages more oft than not, but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

Mole's Town had always been larger than it seemed; most of it was underground, sheltered from the cold and snow. That was more true than ever now. The Magnar of Thenn had put the empty village to the torch when he passed through on his way to attack Castle Black, and only heaps of blackened beams and old scorched stones remained above-ground … but down beneath the frozen earth, the vaults and tunnels and deep cellars still endured, and that was where the free folk had taken refuge, huddled together in the dark like the moles from which the village took its name.

 

You can make some assumptions about the trees actually represent, apart from those who were likely sacrificed.  

- drunken ash on a hill with a broken nose  tyrion as Hugor Hill

- the old chestnut sporting Mormont's Raven - Mormont or Bloodraven passing the baton. er, bird to Jon

- the angry oak - Jon who will also be mudered by multiple cuts.

These trees have an analogue in the Children's tower, Drunken tower and Gatehouse tower at Moat Cailin

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Moat_Cailin 

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25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Third tree:

You can make some assumptions about the trees actually represent, apart from those who were likely sacrificed.  

- drunken ash on a hill with a broken nose  tyrion as Hugor Hill

- the old chestnut sporting Mormont's Raven - Mormont or Bloodraven passing the baton. er, bird to Jon

- the angry oak - Jon who will also be mudered by multiple cuts.

These trees have an analogue in the Children's tower, Drunken tower and Gatehouse tower at Moat Cailin

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Moat_Cailin 

You're the best.  Thank you!  While I have not yet reached a full reckoning with these faces as indicators of Wildling sacrifice I was stunned to see you unraveled a mystery I've been working on for years.  The trees are the watchers on the wall.  Dang.  Now I have to go read more about these faces.   

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On 11/9/2020 at 3:44 AM, LynnS said:

I've always wondered about the 'terrible things

Look at the Targs. How many terrible things occured in just 300 years. Didn't even reach that mark. Maegor. Aerys. Aerion. Aegon 4. Baelor. Aegon 3. And those are just of the top of my head. And just monarchs. OK, not aerion then. But 280+ years producing so much madness is.... well, mad. Starks have been around for 8000-10000 years. How many were Maegors and Aeryses? Handful max. And it (Starks terrible = Targs terrible) would have been equally insane in the worst case scenario. 

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2 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Look at the Targs. How many terrible things occured in just 300 years. Didn't even reach that mark. Maegor. Aerys. Aerion. Aegon 4. Baelor. Aegon 3. And those are just of the top of my head. And just monarchs. OK, not aerion then. But 280+ years producing so much madness is.... well, mad. Starks have been around for 8000-10000 years. How many were Maegors and Aeryses? Handful max. And it (Starks terrible = Targs terrible) would have been equally insane in the worst case scenario. 

Oh no doubt terrible things happened. I'm really wondering what those terrible things were and what context give that we are talking about the kings of winter. 

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Continuing comment#117

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brandon_Stark_(Bad)

 

Reddit. Forgive me CF. 

https://amp.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/30wcod/spoilers_all_are_there_any_bad_starks_in_asoiaf/

Bad Starks list compilation against that of Targs (House with most insane things in a short span of time) 

Theon hungry wolf maybe. Nightking maybe. All subject to argument. Brandon the Bad sure. Anymore? 

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Oh no doubt terrible things happened. I'm really wondering what those terrible things were and what context give that we are talking about the kings of winter. 

I'm wondering myself. I'll take it from anyone who isn't a prejudiced, biased Starks hater 

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