FictionIsntReal Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 23 hours ago, Canon Claude said: Varys persuaded Aerys to go to the tourney to discourage any talk of treason. Oh, that. Didn't that backfire when the lords saw how far gone he was? It's not like Varys himself was around to discourage talk. 7 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: Most of the other terrible people - Ramsay, Gregor, Joffrey, Cersei - all clearly have some kind of mental disorder, some level of socio/psychopathy. That's one way of saying they are the worst people in that world. Quote Rhaegar, by all accounts, was a sane man of sound mind Not insane, but not necessarily "sound". LF isn't insane either. Quote I know a LOT of Rhaegars. How many Littlefingers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad King Bolton Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Lots of interesting points. I'm surprised at the number of opinions about Rhaegar's arrogance and faults though. The story is incomplete along with the precise reasons that Rhaegar took the actions he did despite the general perception that he was a good man and would have been a good ruler before the tourney at Harrenhal. One should assume that with the amount of time he took during his life to contemplate, plan, look to the future, etc. and with the inside information he had that we are unaware of in greater detail, that he knew what he was doing and despite the results we see (war in the realm, his own death, the downfall of his family), I think it's short sighted to say he was wrong (which would mean he was arrogant and not doing the correct actions). If the prophecy comes to pass and it is Jon Snow that fulfills it, would Rhaegar still be arrogant? His knowledge may have even shown his that he himself would need to be sacrificed to fulfill the end result. So, I still see Rhaegar as one of the most important parts of the series and overall story, and that he acted out of necessity despite how many see him currently (and likely afterwards since many characters will never have all the information). Isn't that a true hero? Doing the necessary actions in spite of how you will be perceived? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad King Bolton Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Just to add to the above and to properly connect this to the OP (sorry for digressing). I think Rhaegar did have a plan of action for taking control of the realm from his father and maybe what happened with Lyanna sidetracked or took priority over the original plans of gathering support. This predates Robert's Rebellion, so who's to say the rebellion doesn't go down in a similar fashion from this point onwards with Rhaegar at the head of the rebels instead of Robert. It seems like he may have had or would have been able to secure Northern support during meetings during the tourney, though that may be an interesting subject to discuss...who would have supported Rhaegar from the lords attending the tourney. Someone noted that the crown lands would have of course supported Aerys, but not necessarily. Against Robert, yes. Against Rhaegar? Possibly not if many agreed Aerys was unstable and degenerating. It wouldn't have been popular or one sided, but I think there's a case to be made that a position could grow and gain traction to move with Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 On 10/10/2020 at 4:25 AM, James Steller said: The whole thing seems really harebrained to me. Thats because it is. Its not actually something we know, its just the speculation of a bunch of readers who might just fit that description fairly well - at least judging by their own words. Some of which are openly motivated by hate rather than reason. I prefer to note that Rhaegar was considered to be extremely intelligent, extremely able (above all) and dutiful. And that we don't know exactly what his actions were, nor the accurate context of them, let alone exactly what he was thinking or planning. I don't put much stock in 'stupid' or 'crazy' theoretical plans that he might have had, proposed by readers. Even less when those readers display their own limitations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 On 10/9/2020 at 7:32 PM, FictionIsntReal said: We know Rhaegar was acting according to prophecy even from an early age, and his own birth was the result of his parents & grandparents acting on a prophecy. We don't hear of Howland acting according to any prophecy. Lyanna just happens to observe him getting beat up, he didn't seek her out. Two of his enemies? Even if he believed Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree (rather than Jaime, defying Aerys' order), she wouldn't be comparable to Rhaegar because she hadn't actually done anything to oppose Aerys and wasn't a rival ready to displace. We also know that Howland spent the better part of two years on the Isle of Faces communing with the green men. If anyone knows what the song of ice and fire is, it's them. Then Howland goes to Harrenhal and meets up with Lyanna, who then fathers this child who would have both ice (Stark) blood and fire (Targ) blood in his veins. So it isn't a stretch that Lyanna would then relay this to Rhaegar who, as you say, was into prophecies from an early age, and it would be on Lyanna's urging, not Rhaegar's (who may or may not be convinced of this prophecy that he is hearing for the first time) to run away and make a baby together. Yes, two of his enemies. Rhaegar is been on Aerys' shit list for a good couple of years, and now that Rhaegar has just outed Lyanna as the KotLT, whom Aerys has declared is "no friend of mine," she is as well. Also, Lyanna is the link that will join two great houses, Stark and Baratheon, in a bid to oppose Targaeryen power. So she is definitely someone he would want to be rid of, even though Rhaegar is the real prize here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 9 hours ago, John Suburbs said: We also know that Howland spent the better part of two years on the Isle of Faces communing with the green men. If anyone knows what the song of ice and fire is, it's them. Who says the green men/Old Gods know anything about it? The Targaryen tradition of dragon dreams & prophecy brought over from Valyria doesn't necessarily have any connection to them. Bran hasn't heard anything about it, and there's no point in hiding anything from him this late. Quote Then Howland goes to Harrenhal and meets up with Lyanna, who then fathers this child who would have both ice (Stark) blood and fire (Targ) blood in his veins. So it isn't a stretch that Lyanna would then relay this to Rhaegar Lyanna hasn't fathered (or mothered) any child when she's at the tourney with Howland, and why do you think Howland is relaying any green men stuff to her? Quote Rhaegar's (who may or may not be convinced of this prophecy that he is hearing for the first time) What prophecy is he hearing for the first time? He's clearly already aware of him fathering three heads of the dragon, one of whom is the Prince That Was Promised. Quote Yes, two of his enemies. Rhaegar is been on Aerys' shit list for a good couple of years, and now that Rhaegar has just outed Lyanna as the KotLT, whom Aerys has declared is "no friend of mine," she is as well Aerys declared that when he suspected it was Jaime Lannister defying his order not to participate in the tourney. Aerys hadn't declared that all mystery knights were enemies of his when the KotLT appeared. Quote Also, Lyanna is the link that will join two great houses, Stark and Baratheon, in a bid to oppose Targaeryen power. If she's off with Rhaegar, she's not doing any joining of house Baratheon. And Aerys had been focused on Rhaegar (and Tywin, until he resigned) as his enemies, we don't hear of him having any problem with the various lords paramount forming marriage alliances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 16 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Who says the green men/Old Gods know anything about it? The Targaryen tradition of dragon dreams & prophecy brought over from Valyria doesn't necessarily have any connection to them. Bran hasn't heard anything about it, and there's no point in hiding anything from him this late. Lyanna hasn't fathered (or mothered) any child when she's at the tourney with Howland, and why do you think Howland is relaying any green men stuff to her? What prophecy is he hearing for the first time? He's clearly already aware of him fathering three heads of the dragon, one of whom is the Prince That Was Promised. Aerys declared that when he suspected it was Jaime Lannister defying his order not to participate in the tourney. Aerys hadn't declared that all mystery knights were enemies of his when the KotLT appeared. If she's off with Rhaegar, she's not doing any joining of house Baratheon. And Aerys had been focused on Rhaegar (and Tywin, until he resigned) as his enemies, we don't hear of him having any problem with the various lords paramount forming marriage alliances. Come on. If anybody knows about this, it's the green men. Not that they refer to it in the Azor Ahai or PtwP traditions of Essos, but in terms of the last hero and the Long Night, and the Others which are now active again. Bran knows that the dead are rising and the hour is late, but he is still learning from BR and will probably know the true extent of the threat shortly. So to say there is no reason for him not to know at this point is illogical. There are plenty of reasons why he doesn't know yet. He doesn't know a lot of things that BR knows. I didn't say she fathered a child with Howland at Harrenhal. I said she later fathers a child that supposedly has ice and fire blood in his veins. So we have Howland with the green men, who would know what the song of ice and fire is all about, then Howland with Lyanna at Harrenhal, than Lyanna birthing this ice-fire baby a little later. It's one of those connect-the-dots things. Rhaegar is hearing the truth about the song of ice and fire for the first time, and how it all fits with the three-heads, the PtwP, AA, and all the other things he's heard. This is how Lyanna convinces him that it is up to them to produce the hero who will save the world from the menace that was gathering in the north even then. Regardless, Aerys thinks the KotLT is his enemy. Now that he knows it is Lyanna, and that Rhaegar knew as well and defied him by not bringing her back, he is convinced that Lyanna is her enemy, as are her father and brothers, all of whom are plotting with the other lords to bring him down. So now the realm thinks that Rhaegar is smitten with Lyanna because he crowned her the QoLaB (even though he was actually just outing her as the KotLT and thumbing his nose at his father at the same time), so Aerys snatches both of them and puts out this story that Rhaegar, driven by his lust, kidnapped Lyanna to have his way with her. And the realm will believe this because of what he did at the tourney. What Aerys didn't think through was how the Starks would react to this and what he would have to do to hide the fact that he was behind both kidnappings. Lyanna was betrothed to Robert Baratheon, which would have joined houses Stark and Baratheon in a political alliance. This is how it is done in feudal societies. Couple this with Brandon marrying Catelyn Tully, and now you have three great houses joined by marriage. This has never happened before, in large part because of the threat it represents to the Iron Throne. Meanwhile, you have Lannisters talking marriage with Tullys and Martells, Martells talking to Hightowers, Arryns fostering Starks and Baratheons . . . Why do you think Aerys decided to break his three-year hermitage and attend the tourney at Harrenhal? He knew it was a chance for the great lords to plot their treason, with Rhaegar. Again, it's a connect-the-dots thing. And we have ample reason to think Aerys thought the lords were conspiring against him: Quote His lordship lacked the funds to pay such magnificent prizes, they argued; someone else must surely have stood behind him, someone who did not lack for gold but preferred to remain in the shadows whilst allowing the Lord of Harrenhal to claim the glory for hosting this magnificent event. We have no shred of evidence that such a "shadow host" ever existed, but the notion was widely believed at the time and remains so today. . . . If this tale be believed, 'twas Prince Rhaegar who urged Lord Walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship's brother Ser Oswell as a go-between. Rhaegar provided Whent with gold sufficient for splendid prizes in order to bring as many lords and knights to Harrenhal as possible. The prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney; his intent was to gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal Great Council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, King Aerys II, possible by means of a regency or forced abdication. . . . It would mark the first time that Aerys II had left the safety of the Red Keep since the Defiance of Duskendale. Now doubt, His Grace reasoned that his enemies would not dare conspire against him under his very nose. . . . Above all, King Aerys II was suspicious: suspicious of his own son and heir, Prince Rhaegar; suspicious of his host, Lord Whent; suspicious of every lord and knight who had come to Harrenhal to compete . . . and even more suspicious of those who chose to absent themselves . . . And as for the marriages and the threat they posed to the Mad King: Quote When the Stark line was nearly obliterated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late lord Rickard, whose alliances by blood and friendship tied the great houses together and ensured that they would act together in response to the Mad King's crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 5 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Come on. If anybody knows about this, it's the green men. Not that they refer to it in the Azor Ahai or PtwP traditions of Essos, but in terms of the last hero and the Long Night, and the Others which are now active again. Bran has heard of the Last Hero, because he's a Stark, but not any "Prince That Was Promised". And he still hasn't even after meeting the Reeds and even a child of the forest like Leaf. How can you have any confidence that they've connected that very old story with a "song of ice and fire"? There were no dragons or Targaryens in the Last Hero story, nor in Rhaegar's scene talking about Aegon did he connect that prophecy to the Last Hero. Quote I didn't say she fathered a child with Howland With ANYBODY by that point. How would Howland know anything about her future? Quote So we have Howland with the green men, who would know what the song of ice and fire is all about We've seen no evidence they've ever heard of any such song. Quote then Howland with Lyanna at Harrenhal, than Lyanna birthing this ice-fire baby a little later. It's one of those connect-the-dots things. Your "connect-the-dots" is post hoc ergo propter hoc. Quote Rhaegar is hearing the truth about the song of ice and fire for the first time Rhaegar thought he knew the truth when his son Aegon was born (which was after Harrenhal). But it seems he was just wrong about his son, unless you think Young Griff is really the Prince That Was Promised. Quote and how it all fits with the three-heads, the PtwP, AA, and all the other things he's heard Has Rhaegar heard of Azor Ahai? Melisandre goes on about that, but she's a R'hllorist from Asshai. Quote This is how Lyanna convinces him that it is up to them to produce the hero who will save the world Rhaegar merely said "there must be one more" because of the three heads, and he thought Aegon was the actual hero. Aegon's song was already "the song of ice and fire" despite the lack of any "ice" blood in his veins. Quote that was gathering in the north even then There's no evidence for that. Quote Regardless, Aerys thinks the KotLT is his enemy. Now that he knows it is Lyanna I know Aerys is mad, but after learning it's Lyanna even he wouldn't just slot her into Jaime Lannister's place. Quote and that Rhaegar knew as well and defied him by not bringing her back, he is convinced that Lyanna is her enemy Rhaegar defying his order would indeed be a problem in Aerys' mind. But Lyanna didn't actually defy him at all. Quote as are her father and brothers, all of whom are plotting with the other lords to bring him down Aerys didn't do anything to the Starks until Brandon came to KL. At worst he might have thought Rhaegar's gesture was an indication he was in league with them (which would be hard to reconcile given how visibly pissed Brandon was at it, but then Aerys is mad). Quote even though he was actually just outing her as the KotLT No, he wasn't "outing her", which is why the World of Ice and Fire doesn't reveal who the KotLT really was, merely noting that Aerys concluded it was Jaime, and still refers to the knight as a "young man". Quote so Aerys snatches both of them Lyanna disappeared a while after the tourney. Rhaegar had already gone home to his wife after the tourney. Aerys can't easily simultaenously kidnap them from different places while also making it look like Rhaegar kidnapped her. And what was Arthur Dayne doing at that time? Quote This has never happened before, in large part because of the threat it represents to the Iron Throne The Throne has never done anything to prevent such marriages. Quote Why do you think Aerys decided to break his three-year hermitage and attend the tourney at Harrenhal? He knew it was a chance for the great lords to plot their treason, with Rhaegar. Again, it's a connect-the-dots thing. Yandel actually does comment on this, and it has nothing to do with all those marriages. Rhaegar was suspected of trying to gather all those lords in a plot against his father. Quote And as for the marriages and the threat they posed to the Mad King: So you think we should take seriously the unnamed people said to be misguided? No one familiar with what Aerys was actually up to at that time suggests anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Bran has heard of the Last Hero, because he's a Stark, but not any "Prince That Was Promised". And he still hasn't even after meeting the Reeds and even a child of the forest like Leaf. How can you have any confidence that they've connected that very old story with a "song of ice and fire"? There were no dragons or Targaryens in the Last Hero story, nor in Rhaegar's scene talking about Aegon did he connect that prophecy to the Last Hero. With ANYBODY by that point. How would Howland know anything about her future? We've seen no evidence they've ever heard of any such song. Your "connect-the-dots" is post hoc ergo propter hoc. Rhaegar thought he knew the truth when his son Aegon was born (which was after Harrenhal). But it seems he was just wrong about his son, unless you think Young Griff is really the Prince That Was Promised. Has Rhaegar heard of Azor Ahai? Melisandre goes on about that, but she's a R'hllorist from Asshai. Rhaegar merely said "there must be one more" because of the three heads, and he thought Aegon was the actual hero. Aegon's song was already "the song of ice and fire" despite the lack of any "ice" blood in his veins. There's no evidence for that. I know Aerys is mad, but after learning it's Lyanna even he wouldn't just slot her into Jaime Lannister's place. Rhaegar defying his order would indeed be a problem in Aerys' mind. But Lyanna didn't actually defy him at all. Aerys didn't do anything to the Starks until Brandon came to KL. At worst he might have thought Rhaegar's gesture was an indication he was in league with them (which would be hard to reconcile given how visibly pissed Brandon was at it, but then Aerys is mad). No, he wasn't "outing her", which is why the World of Ice and Fire doesn't reveal who the KotLT really was, merely noting that Aerys concluded it was Jaime, and still refers to the knight as a "young man". Lyanna disappeared a while after the tourney. Rhaegar had already gone home to his wife after the tourney. Aerys can't easily simultaenously kidnap them from different places while also making it look like Rhaegar kidnapped her. And what was Arthur Dayne doing at that time? The Throne has never done anything to prevent such marriages. Yandel actually does comment on this, and it has nothing to do with all those marriages. Rhaegar was suspected of trying to gather all those lords in a plot against his father. So you think we should take seriously the unnamed people said to be misguided? No one familiar with what Aerys was actually up to at that time suggests anything like that. Just because they use different names doesn't mean these are completely different stories. They are all so common that it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the Last Hero, Azor Ahai and the PtwP (as well as the others) are all the same story told by different culture. Where do you get the idea that Howland Reed is predicting her future? Howland relayed this tale of the song of ice and fire to Lyanna, and then she took it upon herself to make it happen. More than likely, Lyanna concluded that she and Rhaegar had to do this, not Howland. Where do you suppose this evidence would be lurking? Rhaegar and Lyanna are both dead, and the story has not take us anywhere near Howland Reed. So just sit tight, if what I'm saying is correct it will all come out. Martin has said we will get the full story of what happened with R&L, and there is no way he's going to write seven novels of a Song of Ice and Fire without ever getting around to telling us what that is. YG just might be ptwp, if this prophecy is even real. He might be exactly who they say he is. Talk about ergo procter hoc; you conclude that something cannot be true simply because you think it isn't. Yes, everybody talks about this same story from their own traditions. Mel with AA, Rhaegar with the ptwp, Bran etc with the last hero. But if Lyanna were to approach Rhaegar with this song of ice and fire, which Rhaegar already knows about, and it's relation to the last hero who will save the world, it's not a huge leap for him to connect the last hero with the ptwp. It's all the same story, just with different names. Yes, Aegon's is the song of ice and fire. This is what Rhaegar believes at the time. Earlier, he believed he was the ptwp. Who knows what he believed by the time he met up with Lyanna. And with Lyanna getting an explanation of the soiaf straight from Howland, who got it straight from the green men, this would be enough to convince him that he was wrong about Aegon and the real boy who sings the song of ice and fire much come from a union between ice and fire -- thus the need to put the realm's needs aside and run off with Lyanna to make such a boy. Only something of this magnitude would be enough for Rhaegar to forsake his marriage, abandon his wife and family, and commit an act that was very likely to set the kingdom at war with itself. "Slot her into Jaime Lannister's place" What are you talking about? He's not making her a kingsguard. He recognizes that whoever is the kotlt is trying to make a fool of him. plotting something that he might not fully grasp, because, as we are told, Aerys was suspicious of everybody. So now that Rhaegar has outed her as the kotlt, Lyanna is on Aerys' shit list even if he doesn't know what she is up to. But if his aim was to just rid himself of Lyanna, then it probably wouldn't have played out the way it did. But Aerys sees an opportunity here because the realm now thinks Rhaegar is madly in love with her -- so he takes them both and puts out the story that Rhaegar did it, which is now plausible because of what happened at the tourney. Now he has rid himself of his troublesome son who is trying to take his crown and the woman who would unite two of the great houses that could become a threat to Targaryen rule. Why would Aerys do anything against the Starks, or the Tullys or the Arryns or the Baratheons, prior to all this? No one has committed any treason. He can't simply go to war with has vassals for no apparent reason, nor can he simply execute them, particularly when he doesn't have them in custody. So that's a silly argument to make. Aerys came to the tourney thinking all these lords were in league with Rhaegar to depose him. Now, Rhaegar has done something to upset the Starks, driving a wedge in this supposed alliance. So from Aerys' PoV, what better way to drive this wedge even further than to snatch both R&L and spread the story that Rhaegar did it? What he didn't count on was hot-headed Brandon showing up at KL demanding Rhaegar, who Aerys of course cannot produce. Rhaegar wasn't exactly outing Lyanna as the kotlt, primarily because most people involved in this already knew the truth. What he was revealing as that he knew it was Lyanna as well and that he deliberately defied his father's royal command when he said all he found was a shield leaning against a tree. We don't know how long Lyanna remained at Harrenhal after the tourney (which itself is an oddity in all of this. Why did she remain at all given that all the other Starks have gone and Brandon is about to get married?). But it doesn't really matter. Aerys could have easily taken them both. He's the king. He has a lot of resources. And in Lyanna's case, he could easily have staged it as a kidnapping by someone wearing Rhaegar's outfit: night black armor with ruby dragons, gold/orange/red streamers on his helm, etc. And what was Arthur Dayne doing all this time, as well as JonCon and Rhaegar's other friends? That's a good question. Are these noble, chivalrous knights helping Rhaegar commit atrocities with the daughter of a high lord, defying his father, the church, his own honor, and throwing the kingdom into bloody civil war? I don't think why anyone would consider them to be noble or honorable, nor even very good friends. The throne has never done anything to prevent such marriages because there have been no such marriages. Look at the family trees: since the Conquest, and even throughout the ages, the great houses/kingdoms rarely if ever intermarried. It was always high lord/king to their own vassals or at best a high lord/king to someone else's vassal, like a Stark to a Royce or Blackwood, or a Lannister to a Frey or a Webber. We have evidence of Baratheons to Lannisters, but it is unclear if this is the ruling Lannisters or a junior branch. Suddenly, however, seemingly out of the blue, nearly all of the great houses are looking to marry one another. This is how alliances are formed and maintained. As long as all the great houses marry vassal houses, all is well with the crown. Once they start to marry each other, however, you have the seeds to unite two great houses into one even greater house. Add another few houses into the mix and you get a power bloc that could rival the iron throne. This is what Aerys was most worried about; and the same goes for Highgarden. Yes, Aerys came to Harrenhal to interrupt any plotting there, which he is doubly sure is happening because they are all looking to marry into one another, ensure they will act as one if/when push ever comes to shove, which it did. This is the underlying dynamic of the entire story: the struggle for power between/among the great houses. Part of that struggle involves out and out warfare, part of it is intrigue, and part of it is marriage. Feudal houses used marriage to form political alliances. This is a fact. This is what the Game of Thrones as all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 9 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Just because they use different names doesn't mean these are completely different stories. They are all so common that it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the Last Hero, Azor Ahai and the PtwP (as well as the others) are all the same story told by different culture. You might think that, but the people in this world aren't Joseph Campbell. The Prince That Was Promised is supposed to have some important lineage that resulted in the marriages producing Rhaegar himself. The Last Hero isn't said to have anything like that, just a magic sword he creates by sacrificing the woman he loves (the same doesn't seem to be true for TPTWP). It's actually unclear what the Last Hero and Prince That Was Promised even have in common. One could assume that the Last Hero is a man and so is the Prince, but then Aemon said that was a mistake and the Valyrian word is gender-neutral. The Last Hero even takes place in the past, while TPTWP seems to be in the future. Quote Where do you get the idea that Howland Reed is predicting her future? Howland relayed this tale of the song of ice and fire to Lyanna WHY is he relaying this to Lyanna? The two surviving Starks from the tourney, Ned & Benjen, don't seem to know anything about it. Ned executes the lone survivor of an attack by the Others without being any the wiser of what's going on. Quote Where do you suppose this evidence would be lurking? In Bran's chapters, since he interacts with the Reeds, a Child of the Forest and becomes connected to the weirwood network of greenseers. Quote there is no way he's going to write seven novels of a Song of Ice and Fire without ever getting around to telling us what that is Right now I doubt he's going to finish the series period. Quote YG just might be ptwp, if this prophecy is even real. He might be exactly who they say he is. Talk about ergo procter hoc; you conclude that something cannot be true simply because you think it isn't. I'm saying Rhaegar has gotten the prophecy wrong repeatedly. At first he thought he himself was the Prince, then that Aegon was while his two other children would be the other "heads of the dragon". But GRRM himself has confirmed that Rhaenyra was killed, and for a long time it seemed Aegon was dead as well (with many people still asserting he is, I am not making that assertion here). If he was really using Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives as the template for his own children, then he would have expected his third child to be a daughter, which was not the case assuming R+L=J (and if you reject that, him having another daughter would still be something additional to prove). Rhaegar didn't do anything to protect his children in KL because he assumed he would win at the Trident and then return to make unspecified "changes". He was wrong. Quote Yes, everybody talks about this same story from their own traditions. Mel with AA, Rhaegar with the ptwp, Bran etc with the last hero. Has anyone in the story connected the Last Hero to the other two? Quote But if Lyanna were to approach Rhaegar with this song of ice and fire The Last Hero is never associated with a "song of ice and fire". Quote and it's relation to the last hero If Rhaegar knows about the "song of ice and fire" but not of any connection to the last hero, why would you expect Lyanna to know the last hero is connected to any such thing? Quote Who knows what he believed by the time he met up with Lyanna. That's BEFORE Aegon was born and Rhaegar proclaimed him to the prince that was promised. Quote And with Lyanna getting an explanation of the soiaf straight from Howland, who got it straight from the green men, this would be enough to convince him that he was wrong about Aegon WRONG because that takes place AFTER. Aegon was born in 282, the tourney was in 281. Quote "Slot her into Jaime Lannister's place" What are you talking about? He's not making her a kingsguard. Obviously not, I'm referring to mentally slotting her in Jaime's place. Lyanna was under no orders from Aerys to do anything at all, thus she wasn't defying him. Quote He recognizes that whoever is the kotlt is trying to make a fool of him How so? If it's Jaime, then he's defying the order not to participate in the tourney. The same doesn't apply to Lyanna. Quote because, as we are told, Aerys was suspicious of everybody. So now that Rhaegar has outed her as the kotlt, Lyanna is on Aerys' shit list even if he doesn't know what she is up to That's sufficient for EVERYBODY to be on his shit list. Your theory "explains too much". Quote But if his aim was to just rid himself of Lyanna Which makes no sense even without the "just". Quote Now he has rid himself of his troublesome son who is trying to take his crown Except he didn't, Rhaegar still thought he'd be able to take over after the Trident. Quote Why would Aerys do anything against the Starks, or the Tullys or the Arryns or the Baratheons, prior to all this? No one has committed any treason. Including Lyanna, even if Aerys knew she was the KotLT. And Aerys did plenty against Tywin despite not being able to pin any treason on him. Quote So from Aerys' PoV, what better way to drive this wedge even further than to snatch both R&L and spread the story that Rhaegar did it? Aerys was never good at that, or even appeared have enough of a "theory of mind" of others to engage in it. Instead he just dumped on people and listened to any flatterer who would indulge him. Quote who Aerys of course cannot produce Except that Rhaegar WAS produced prior to the Trident. And he didn't say anything to Jaime or Barristan about being his father's captive. Quote Rhaegar wasn't exactly outing Lyanna as the kotlt, primarily because most people involved in this already knew the truth. Remove the "exactly" and he still wasn't doing it. Most people don't know, with the histories not only mentioning Jaime as a suspect and Bran not even knowing about the KotLT at all. Even Brandon doesn't seem to have interpreted the crowning that way considering he reacted the way some might expect Robert to. Quote Aerys could have easily taken them both. He's the king. He has a lot of resources I don't think you understand how feudalism works. Power is very decentralized, and the king has power to the extent that his vassals support him. Rhaegar went to Dragonstone, which is admittedly crownlands territory, but Lyanna was in the Riverlands as her brother was coming to marry the daughter of the head of house Tully. Hoster certainly wouldn't have tolerated her being taken. Quote And in Lyanna's case, he could easily have staged it as a kidnapping by someone wearing Rhaegar's outfit: night black armor with ruby dragons, gold/orange/red streamers on his helm, etc. It wasn't just Rhaegar people said was there, Arthur Dayne & Oswell Whent were there as well. Was Aerys able to fake both of them? Were they both kidnapped? Quote And what was Arthur Dayne doing all this time, as well as JonCon and Rhaegar's other friends? Those are separate questions for Dayne vs Connington. Dayne was spotted with Rhaegar when Lyanna was taken. He was missing throughout the rebellion until Ned found him at the Tower of Joy. Connington (who was not as close a friend to Rhaegar as Dayne) was not missing and served as Hand until he was exiled. Quote Are these noble, chivalrous knights helping Rhaegar commit atrocities with the daughter of a high lord, defying his father, the church, his own honor, and throwing the kingdom into bloody civil war? I don't think why anyone would consider them to be noble or honorable, nor even very good friends. You're saying he's not a good friend to Rhaegar if he did that? In Ned's recollection/dream, the KG say that they obey orders. And GRRM said that if Rhaegar gave them an order, they would obey. Quote The throne has never done anything to prevent such marriages because there have been no such marriages. No, Ned even looks up prior Baratheon-Lannister marriages in the first book. Queen Rhaenys also arranged a marriage between Ronnel Arryn & the daughter of Torrhen Stark. Quote This is what Aerys was most worried about We hear nothing about him worrying about betrothals, it's only after executing Ned & Rickard that he decides a betrothal makes Robert an enemy. If Aerys was attentive to the importance of marriage alliances for the stability of his throne, he might have agreed to Tywin's proposal to marry Rhaegar to Jaime, but instead he sought out a Valryian bride from Essos who wouldn't contribute any such alliance. During the war of the five kings, the Lannister regime is attentive to such alliances and acts to block one between Sansa & the Tyrells while arranging their own pair of Tyrell marriages (which doesn't work out in Cersei's case) and having Baelish marry Lysa, while Tyrion has Myrcella betrothed to Trystane Martell. Quote Yes, Aerys came to Harrenhal to interrupt any plotting there, which he is doubly sure is happening because they are all looking to marry into one another, ensure they will act as one if/when push ever comes to shove, which it did. There were lots of minor houses there who weren't marrying into the STAB block. Jaime wanted to be there even though he couldn't marry anyone, but Aerys prohibited it. The Tullys weren't there, even though they had a marriage alliance to the Starks. Aerys being there didn't disrupt any marriage alliance. Quote This is the underlying dynamic of the entire story: the struggle for power between/among the great houses. Part of that struggle involves out and out warfare, part of it is intrigue, and part of it is marriage. Feudal houses used marriage to form political alliances. This is a fact. This is what the Game of Thrones as all about. Tell that to Aerys himself, who preferred incest to playing a game which supposed he was on the same level as non-Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manderly's Rat Cook Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: WHY is he relaying this to Lyanna? The two surviving Starks from the tourney, Ned & Benjen, don't seem to know anything about it. Ned executes the lone survivor of an attack by the Others without being any the wiser of what's going on. In Bran's chapters, since he interacts with the Reeds, a Child of the Forest and becomes connected to the weirwood network of greenseers. Has anyone in the story connected the Last Hero to the other two? The Last Hero is never associated with a "song of ice and fire". If Rhaegar knows about the "song of ice and fire" but not of any connection to the last hero, why would you expect Lyanna to know the last hero is connected to any such thing? There is at least some indication that the song of ice and fire (at least at some point) played a part in northern lore. When Jojen and Meera gone to swear fealty to Winterfell, they swear the following oath: Quote Meera and Jojen: To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you. Jojen: I swear it by earth and water.Meera: I swear it by bronze and iron. Meera and Jojen: We swear it by ice and fire. Now Bran thinks this is a particular oath, which seems to indicate that it's a very old oath, or perhaps even a sort of binding spell, who knows. It doesn't just mention ice and fire, but also connects it to bronze and iron, and earth and water. We know for a fact that bronze and iron play an important role in northern/first men history and mythology, do I think it's safe to assume that ice and fire does as well. The problem is that we have not actually heard the specific ice and fire mythology of the North, and we have no idea if it's even remembered at this point. That being said; I have some reservations about the green men just sharing the entire song of Ice and fire with Howland Reed. I'm the books every person tends to get only snippets of relevant information at a time, and in that respect Howland knowing the full story, and then sharing it in its entirety with Lyanna seems a bit off. I'm sure that he knows important things, I also believe he may have shared some crucial information with Lyanna, or even Rhaegar himself, that influenced the following events, but I doubt that he knows everything about the song of Ice and fire. He has important information, sure, as does Benjen, as did Ned, and that's exactly why they're gone out tucked away remotely, but I don't think any human being -except perhaps BR - has enough information to be able to connect all the dots. Ned certainly didn't, and neither did Benjen as far as we can tell, and they we're in a position to acquire the same information as Lyanna from Howland. I see no reason why Howland wouldn't share the information, that made Lyanna run off with Rhaegar, with Ned on their quest to find her. Or why Ned would still be such great friends with him if he didn't, since Ned did seem to have an idea of why Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar. So either she told him herself, or Howland did.. if that information had anything to do with the green men, he would have known at least some of it, but he clearly didn't know enough to connect all the dots, or be convinced of the existence of the white walkers.. which raises the question why Howland would share that information in one night with Benjen/Lyanna and/or Rhaegar, and not with his great friend Ned on a very long journey.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 13 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: You might think that, but the people in this world aren't Joseph Campbell. The Prince That Was Promised is supposed to have some important lineage that resulted in the marriages producing Rhaegar himself. The Last Hero isn't said to have anything like that, just a magic sword he creates by sacrificing the woman he loves (the same doesn't seem to be true for TPTWP). It's actually unclear what the Last Hero and Prince That Was Promised even have in common. One could assume that the Last Hero is a man and so is the Prince, but then Aemon said that was a mistake and the Valyrian word is gender-neutral. The Last Hero even takes place in the past, while TPTWP seems to be in the future. WHY is he relaying this to Lyanna? The two surviving Starks from the tourney, Ned & Benjen, don't seem to know anything about it. Ned executes the lone survivor of an attack by the Others without being any the wiser of what's going on. In Bran's chapters, since he interacts with the Reeds, a Child of the Forest and becomes connected to the weirwood network of greenseers. Right now I doubt he's going to finish the series period. I'm saying Rhaegar has gotten the prophecy wrong repeatedly. At first he thought he himself was the Prince, then that Aegon was while his two other children would be the other "heads of the dragon". But GRRM himself has confirmed that Rhaenyra was killed, and for a long time it seemed Aegon was dead as well (with many people still asserting he is, I am not making that assertion here). If he was really using Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives as the template for his own children, then he would have expected his third child to be a daughter, which was not the case assuming R+L=J (and if you reject that, him having another daughter would still be something additional to prove). Rhaegar didn't do anything to protect his children in KL because he assumed he would win at the Trident and then return to make unspecified "changes". He was wrong. Has anyone in the story connected the Last Hero to the other two? The Last Hero is never associated with a "song of ice and fire". If Rhaegar knows about the "song of ice and fire" but not of any connection to the last hero, why would you expect Lyanna to know the last hero is connected to any such thing? That's BEFORE Aegon was born and Rhaegar proclaimed him to the prince that was promised. WRONG because that takes place AFTER. Aegon was born in 282, the tourney was in 281. Obviously not, I'm referring to mentally slotting her in Jaime's place. Lyanna was under no orders from Aerys to do anything at all, thus she wasn't defying him. How so? If it's Jaime, then he's defying the order not to participate in the tourney. The same doesn't apply to Lyanna. That's sufficient for EVERYBODY to be on his shit list. Your theory "explains too much". Which makes no sense even without the "just". Except he didn't, Rhaegar still thought he'd be able to take over after the Trident. Including Lyanna, even if Aerys knew she was the KotLT. And Aerys did plenty against Tywin despite not being able to pin any treason on him. Aerys was never good at that, or even appeared have enough of a "theory of mind" of others to engage in it. Instead he just dumped on people and listened to any flatterer who would indulge him. Except that Rhaegar WAS produced prior to the Trident. And he didn't say anything to Jaime or Barristan about being his father's captive. Remove the "exactly" and he still wasn't doing it. Most people don't know, with the histories not only mentioning Jaime as a suspect and Bran not even knowing about the KotLT at all. Even Brandon doesn't seem to have interpreted the crowning that way considering he reacted the way some might expect Robert to. I don't think you understand how feudalism works. Power is very decentralized, and the king has power to the extent that his vassals support him. Rhaegar went to Dragonstone, which is admittedly crownlands territory, but Lyanna was in the Riverlands as her brother was coming to marry the daughter of the head of house Tully. Hoster certainly wouldn't have tolerated her being taken. It wasn't just Rhaegar people said was there, Arthur Dayne & Oswell Whent were there as well. Was Aerys able to fake both of them? Were they both kidnapped? Those are separate questions for Dayne vs Connington. Dayne was spotted with Rhaegar when Lyanna was taken. He was missing throughout the rebellion until Ned found him at the Tower of Joy. Connington (who was not as close a friend to Rhaegar as Dayne) was not missing and served as Hand until he was exiled. You're saying he's not a good friend to Rhaegar if he did that? In Ned's recollection/dream, the KG say that they obey orders. And GRRM said that if Rhaegar gave them an order, they would obey. No, Ned even looks up prior Baratheon-Lannister marriages in the first book. Queen Rhaenys also arranged a marriage between Ronnel Arryn & the daughter of Torrhen Stark. We hear nothing about him worrying about betrothals, it's only after executing Ned & Rickard that he decides a betrothal makes Robert an enemy. If Aerys was attentive to the importance of marriage alliances for the stability of his throne, he might have agreed to Tywin's proposal to marry Rhaegar to Jaime, but instead he sought out a Valryian bride from Essos who wouldn't contribute any such alliance. During the war of the five kings, the Lannister regime is attentive to such alliances and acts to block one between Sansa & the Tyrells while arranging their own pair of Tyrell marriages (which doesn't work out in Cersei's case) and having Baelish marry Lysa, while Tyrion has Myrcella betrothed to Trystane Martell. There were lots of minor houses there who weren't marrying into the STAB block. Jaime wanted to be there even though he couldn't marry anyone, but Aerys prohibited it. The Tullys weren't there, even though they had a marriage alliance to the Starks. Aerys being there didn't disrupt any marriage alliance. Tell that to Aerys himself, who preferred incest to playing a game which supposed he was on the same level as non-Targaryens. The stories are similar enough that Rhaegar, just like virtually every reader, can connect the dots: a hero with a magic sword that defeats the darkness. Lyanna is the one who rescued him from the squires. She befriended him, sheltered him, got closer to him than anyone else, gave him sympathy. Why wouldn't she be the one to hear this tale? Just because Bran has not yet been told the entire story you conclude that it cannot be so? Mighty illogical. Bran has yet to fully understand why he is in the cave at all. Give it time, it will all be made clear. Yes, Rhaegar was wrong about all kinds of things, so how can you possible argue that Rhaegar wouldn't believe this story from Lyanna when he was susceptible to believing just about everything else? Who cares what has been connected in the story? Most people only know their own myths, not those of other cultures. All the stories are similar in one basic point: a lone hero with a magic sword how slays the evil. So continuing to argue that it can't be true just because the book hasn't stated it yet is silly. By this logic, RLJ cannot be true because the book has not stated that either. Rhaegar connects the soiaf to the ptwp. Lyanna hears the tale of the soiaf from Howland, who got it from the green men, who would know the story of the last hero. So when this is presented to Rhaegar, it all makes sense because the soiaf is connected to the ptwp, and the pwtp is obviously the last hero in the northern tale. And this is assuming that the green men don't know about the ptwp and could have easily used that name instead. So you are saying that while at the tourney, Elia was heavy with child but nobody ever seems to recall this fact? I think you should rethink your timeline: According to the World Book, on the last day of 281, Rhaegar was neither in King's Landing nor on Dragonstone "with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon." There is absolutely no way Elia would or could have even made the journey from Dragonstone to Harrenhal while in late stage pregnancy. Given her frail health, it was a wonder she was even there at all. And besides, this vision in the HotU is hardly reliable, considering it could be a thing that was or a thing that never was. Aerys' hostility has nothing to do with whether Lyanna is in the tourney or not. It's that she is mocking him in some way before the court. And then she is a convenient pawn to get rid of Rhaegar and break the tie between wolf and stag. Yes, everybody is on Aerys' shit list. And if he had an opportunity to remove Ned or Rickard or Hoster or anybody, he would have done so. As it turned out Rhaegar provided the perfect opportunity to rid Aerys of his troublesome son and throw a wrench into high lords' plotting. Honestly, you think Aerys is not going to do anything unless he can remove all of the threats against him in one simple stroke? Yes, Rhaegar still thought he would win at the Trident, and so did Aerys. This is exactly my point. If Rhaegar is responsible for starting this whole mess, then Aerys has even less reason to entrust him with an army than before. Rhaegar is clearly mad, unstable and prone to do just about anything, especially now that he is ready to throw away his wife and children for another woman. The only way this makes any sense is if Aerys knows Rhaegar is not the one responsible for all this and that he still cares deeply for his family. This is why he has Elia and children in the King's Landing: to compel the loyalty of both Llewyn and Rhaegar. Yes, Aerys listened to flatterers, any one of whom could have pointed out the opportunity that Rhaegar has presented with his stunt at the tourney. But don't underestimate Aerys himself either. He is crafty, and paranoid, so this is exactly the scheme he would come with: one that looks clever but leads to an uncertain outcome. Rhaegar willingly led his father's forces and never confided in anyone. Hmm, why would he do that? Let's see, how about this: Dear Rhaegar, Good news. I will release you from your cell. All you have to do is lead my army and defeat my enemies. If you do not agree to these terms, you and I will sit in the throneroom while one by one your entire family will be slowly, ever so slowly, lowered into a big vat of wildfire, starting with your infant son. Do you think that would do it? Can you hear Aegon's screams fill the room and the wailing and pleading of Elia and Rhaenys, knowing that they are next? And would this compel Rhaegar to finally admit that the time has come for "changes to be made"? How do we know what Brandon of anyone else were thinking when Rhaegar dropped the wreath on Lyanna? This could all have been an acknowledgement of the danger that Rhaegar has just put Lyanna in. Bran doesn't know the story of the kotlt. What of it? He is, what, six? seven? His father never spoke of it. Ned doesn't speak of a lot of things in this while time period. Sorry, but Aerys could very easily have taken hem both. What does feudal power have to do with it? Do you think he asked anyone's permission? Aerys has soldiers and guards and men of high degree who could easily dispatch a group of armed men to take Rhaegar into custody, and then dress one of them up like Rhaegar to take Lyanna. What is not possible is that the kidnap/rape story spreading across the land if it wasn't true. No, nobody every says Dayne or Whent were part of the "kidnapping", nor JonCon nor any other named character that Rhaegar was close to -- just unknown "closest friends and confidants." How interesting. Noble, chivalrous knights would not help a friend commit atrocities against a lady. That runs counter to everything a knight stands for. If they did, they would certainly not maintain reputations as some of the most noble, chivalrous knights ever. The would obey an order from the crown prince to accompany him somewhere or dispatch a foe -- something that does not conflict with their primary vow to obey and protect the king. They would not obey an order to help him kidnap a lady, hold her against her will, rape her repeatedly, throw the kingdom into bloody war, and then stand idly by while this very same crown prince is slain in battle and the king is murdered -- all to stand watch over Rhaegar's girlfriend. That's just ridiculous. Political/military alliances are cemented by marriage. This is how it was done in the Middle Ages, and this is how it is done in Westeros -- as all the maneuvering around Sansa and Cersei and Margaery shows. To say that Aerys was not the slightest bit concerned about the potential power blocs arising from the great houses suddenly marrying one another is ludicrous. This is the principal way the Game of Thrones is played. Honestly, you think that everyone single knight at the tourney would only be there if they were marrying into one of the houses. That's ridiculous. Aerys is there to disrupt any plots against his rule, which he is convinced is happening because to all the marriages taking place that will bind these families into a single entity. It's the exact same thing that first the Gardeners and then the Tyrells did to maintain their dominance in the realm. The difference is that they married within their realm, which suited them fine because the Reach has the largest population and would therefore dominate any other single house. But with the high lords now marrying one another, they are laying the groundwork to rival the Reach and the Iron Throne. This is why the Tyrells sided with Aerys -- not for any devotion to him or loyalty to the crown but because they have as much to fear from a unified North-Riverlands-Vale-Stormlands-Lannister bloc as Aerys did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 12 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said: There is at least some indication that the song of ice and fire (at least at some point) played a part in northern lore. When Jojen and Meera gone to swear fealty to Winterfell, they swear the following oath: Now Bran thinks this is a particular oath, which seems to indicate that it's a very old oath, or perhaps even a sort of binding spell, who knows. It doesn't just mention ice and fire, but also connects it to bronze and iron, and earth and water. We know for a fact that bronze and iron play an important role in northern/first men history and mythology, do I think it's safe to assume that ice and fire does as well. The problem is that we have not actually heard the specific ice and fire mythology of the North, and we have no idea if it's even remembered at this point. That being said; I have some reservations about the green men just sharing the entire song of Ice and fire with Howland Reed. I'm the books every person tends to get only snippets of relevant information at a time, and in that respect Howland knowing the full story, and then sharing it in its entirety with Lyanna seems a bit off. I'm sure that he knows important things, I also believe he may have shared some crucial information with Lyanna, or even Rhaegar himself, that influenced the following events, but I doubt that he knows everything about the song of Ice and fire. He has important information, sure, as does Benjen, as did Ned, and that's exactly why they're gone out tucked away remotely, but I don't think any human being -except perhaps BR - has enough information to be able to connect all the dots. Ned certainly didn't, and neither did Benjen as far as we can tell, and they we're in a position to acquire the same information as Lyanna from Howland. I see no reason why Howland wouldn't share the information, that made Lyanna run off with Rhaegar, with Ned on their quest to find her. Or why Ned would still be such great friends with him if he didn't, since Ned did seem to have an idea of why Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar. So either she told him herself, or Howland did.. if that information had anything to do with the green men, he would have known at least some of it, but he clearly didn't know enough to connect all the dots, or be convinced of the existence of the white walkers.. which raises the question why Howland would share that information in one night with Benjen/Lyanna and/or Rhaegar, and not with his great friend Ned on a very long journey.. Howland spend nearly two years with the green men. Other than Addam Velaryon, he is the only person to have done this since the Dawn Age, as far as we know. It is hard to fathom that he did not spend this time talking about something extremely important, namely the entire tale leading up to the next conflict to decide the fate of all mankind. And who knows what Howland told Ned? Ned certainly doesn't seem to believe the kidnap/rape story. And even if Howland did spell out the whole thing, Ned is not the sort to believe that stuff. He's a pretty rational guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manderly's Rat Cook Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 35 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: Howland spend nearly two years with the green men. Other than Addam Velaryon, he is the only person to have done this since the Dawn Age, as far as we know. It is hard to fathom that he did not spend this time talking about something extremely important, namely the entire tale leading up to the next conflict to decide the fate of all mankind. And who knows what Howland told Ned? Ned certainly doesn't seem to believe the kidnap/rape story. And even if Howland did spell out the whole thing, Ned is not the sort to believe that stuff. He's a pretty rational guy. I'd forgotten that it was that long. Perhaps you're right, but I do believe that to "get the full picture" or understand it entirely, one must look through the trees, and other magical things. Or at least to be able to understand the meaning of the prophecy. I don't know.. it just seems off that Howland would've been sitting on literally all the information, without ever taking action to do anything with it. And why wouldn't Meera and Jojen tell Bran more stories to enlighten him about what's going on. If we look at how little information Bran got from them in all those months they've spent together, than I can only assume that Howland didn't find out everything in those two years with the green men. That being said; even if he knows the full prophecy, I doubt that he's be able to convey it to Lyanna/Rhaegar in one night, but wouldn't tell Ned half as much in the months they spent together.. I find it hard to imagine that Ned knew the entire prophecy.. I mean I obviously can't disapprove it, I just never got the impression that he even had any idea of the bigger picture of things. Sure he was down to earth and rational, and might not have taken it seriously, but on the other hand; if he had the most vital information, and knew the entire prophecy... Wouldn't we at least have gotten some hints that he had done deeper knowledge? Like a dream, or just a thought about that story Howland once told him. Obviously without sharing the whole prophecy, but we never get any hints in that direction. The only hints we get is that there's more to the story of Lyanna's abduction (which at that point in the books is still 'probably love or something'), and that there could be a baby.. I don't know.. Ned just seems like an unlikely Knower of all knowledge to me. I might be wrong, and we may never find out how much he knew, but my gut feeling tells me he had only bits and pieces of information. Howland probably knows more (at least that's what I think), but I wonder how much he knows.. I don't know if he'd have enough information to connect all the dots. Do the green men have an agenda? And does sharing all the details of a prophecy fit into that agenda? Up until now everyone seems to have one, so why not the green men. If their agenda is to make the prophecy come true, than it may serve their purpose to withhold crucial information; information that would negatively influence one's motivation to make the prophecy come true. Would Howland be willing to cooperate at all costs? Even if that cost would be his own children? I think everyone has only limited knowledge available to them, except perhaps those who are hooked to the weirwoodnet. On the other hand it's quite possible that even if one does know the entire prophecy in its true, original form, it's still impossible to connect all the dots without being connected to the supercomputer weirwoodnet. I also wonder if it's an actual song, and what language it's in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 9 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said: We know for a fact that bronze and iron play an important role in northern/first men history Bronze does, since that was the metal they knew how to forge. Iron was brought over by the Andals though, so despite Bran's supposition I would suspect that bit post-dates the Andal invasion. Quote every person tends to get only snippets of relevant information at a time I definitely agree. Rhaegar & Melisandre both seem to have gotten prophecy wrong, as it will "bite your prick off every time". Arya gets to hear prophecy from the Ghost of High Heart, but no one in the audience seems to understand it (readers are able to get most of it by the end of the book). Daenerys doesn't know what the things in the HotU mean. Quote I see no reason why Howland wouldn't share the information, that made Lyanna run off with Rhaegar, with Ned on their quest to find her Are you supposing Howland DID share information which caused that? Or are you just arguing against a version where he did but didn't tell Ned here? Quote Ned did seem to have an idea of why Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar Not during the rebellion, as far as I can tell. Ned & Robert were on the same page up until the sack of KL. Quote So either she told him herself, or Howland did The bit where Ned seems to know really seems to be regarding the Tower of Joy. Even Aerys & his loyalists didn't seem to know where Rhaegar was, with LC Hightower eventually finding the Tower but not returning and merely sending Rhaegar back. Robert & his allies didn't seem to know about it, and Ned only brought a small group of people. My guess is that Ned learned about it not too long before journeying to it. Quote or be convinced of the existence of the white walkers I should note that basically nobody seems to have anticipated that. Melisandre acts as if they're a confirmation of her Manichean worldview, but I don't think she told Stannis about them early on, as her & Stannis' attention only gets diverted northward in ASoS. 8 hours ago, John Suburbs said: The stories are similar enough How so? Tell me which elements are shared. Quote Rhaegar, just like virtually every reader, can connect the dots The characters in this series CANNOT connect the dots like readers, because they have limited perspectives and don't know lots of things we know. They don't even know they're in a novel written by GRRM, with Doylist explanations & Chekov's guns. Quote a hero with a magic sword that defeats the darkness. I don't recall Rhaegar saying anything about a magic sword. Melisandre believes in Lightbringer, but she's also a R'hllorist whose mental framework is shaped by that religion. The Targaryens placed more importance on dragons rather than swords. Quote Why wouldn't she be the one to hear this tale? Who says there is any "the one" who hears it? Those are all nice things she did, but have nothing to do with the green men. Quote Just because Bran has not yet been told the entire story you conclude that it cannot be so? I'm saying absence of evidence is evidence of absence. He's been in contact with folks who could have told him something rather important, but they haven't. Quote Yes, Rhaegar was wrong about all kinds of things, so how can you possible argue that Rhaegar wouldn't believe this story from Lyanna when he was susceptible to believing just about everything else? Because we already have the scene where Rhaegar declares that Aegon's is the "song of ice and fire" (a belief Aemon confirmed Rhaegar held), AFTER the tourney where you think he learned Lyanna had to be the mother of TPTWP. To me that's another example of Rhaegar being wrong because he doesn't have access to all the information we readers have, and because prophecies are hard to interpret. I don't think Rhaegar "disbelieved" something Lyanna told him, because I don't think she told him of any prophecy, nor do I think Howland told her. Quote Most people only know their own myths, not those of other cultures And it usually stays that way. Quote All the stories are similar in one basic point: a lone hero with a magic sword how slays the evil Again, we don't get any magic sword for TPTWP. The Rhoynar believe it was a "secret song" from a united group of people that brought back the day, with the lone hero merely convincing them to unite. In Yi Ti they believe the hero was a woman with a monkey's tale, but there's nothing about a magic sword. The belief in the magic sword Lightbringer seems to be specific to Asshai & R'hllorists who picked it up from there. Even the last hero is merely said to have some companions who died, but not a magic sword, as his sword actually broke due to the cold. He's assisted to victory by the Children, though it's unclear exactly how. Quote Lyanna hears the tale of the soiaf from Howland, who got it from the green men We have no evidence for either of those. Quote the pwtp is obviously the last hero in the northern tale Not obviously, the last hero lived in the past while the "promise" is for the future. The last hero isn't even said to be of noble birth. He is merely the equivalent of a "final girl" in a horror movie who survives after everyone else dies. The wiki has a calculation for when Aegon was born here. Elia Martell married Rhaegar in 280, and with a half-year recovery after birthing Rhaenys, there's just not enough time for Aegon to have been born prior to the Tourney. Quote Harrenhal while in late stage pregnancy Who says it had to be a late stage of her pregnancy? It could be in the early stages. Quote Given her frail health, it was a wonder she was even there at all People were epecially concerned with her health AFTER she gave birth, as her pregnancies were difficult. She was bedridden for half a year after Rhaenys, so if Aegon was the final straw per the maesters, would they really permit such travel AFTER that? Quote And besides, this vision in the HotU is hardly reliable, considering it could be a thing that was or a thing that never was. The vision of Daenerys & Drogo's son is a thing that never was, because it's an alternate future. Rhaegar is in the past, and his claim that "there must be one more" is considered a key piece of evidence for R+L=J. We've even got GRRM confirming the infant in that vision is Aegon, and I don't see any of that is necessary if the vision never really happened and we should just ignore evidence in it. Quote Aerys' hostility has nothing to do with whether Lyanna is in the tourney or not His hostility toward Jaime as KotLT definitely did. Quote It's that she is mocking him in some way before the court She wasn't mocking him at all. If it was Jaime, it's much easier to interpret him as mocking the king he was defying. Aemon the Dragonknight also fought as a mystery knight once, and he was famously at odds with the king he ostensibly served. Quote Yes, everybody is on Aerys' shit list He hasn't been acting that way earlier. The court was divided into Aerys & Rhaegar factions, with Pycelle said to be attempting to balance them all (although we know he was actually a partisan for Tywin). The defiance at Duskendale tipped Tywin's hand as preferring Rhaegar. That's the prism through which Aerys had been viewing everything. We don't get anything about him having a problem with any marriage alliances or fosterings north of KL. Possibly he viewed most others as being too insignificant to pose a real threat. Quote If Rhaegar is responsible for starting this whole mess, then Aerys has even less reason to entrust him with an army than before Aerys also trusted Tywin enough in order to let him into the city, despite having every reason to believe Tywin hated him (as Aerys had done a lot of work needlessly antagonizing him). We know Aerys was a man of whims, and it seems his paranoia could easily refocus onto whoever he regarded as the big threat at the time. Quote The only way this makes any sense is if Aerys knows Rhaegar is not the one responsible for all this and that he still cares deeply for his family If I were Aerys and I had just imprisoned & framed Rhaegar for a crime that started the war, no WAY would I let him out to confront the rebels. He'd just enlist them to overthrow me. Even having some hostages would be insufficient to compel my enemy to lead my forces (do you think Catelyn would have done that for the Lannisters if they were holding Ned & her daughters alive?). Whereas if Aerys & Rhaegar both essentially view the Targaryens as being above the law, then they're on the same page in viewing the rebels as being an illegitimate opposition who just need to be put down. Quote But don't underestimate Aerys himself either. He is crafty There is no evidence that he's crafty or that anyone ever underestimated him. He's a textbook example of a terrible king. When Tyrion wants to (correctly) explain how Cersei's terrible qualities will undermine her rule, he includes that she's "as wise as Mad Aerys". One of the things Cersei does is to treat the Tyrells as her enemies rather than allies, and of course Cersei herself caused the war of Five Kings by bearing her brother's children instead of the king's. Quote and never confided in anyone That part in particular is a doozy. Rhaegar can easily lie and tell Aerys he will do as commanded, then tell others the truth when he's away. How is Aerys going to know? If he wants to get his family out of Aerys' grasp he'll want allies to help. The son of one of Aerys' enemies, who has himself been subject to Aerys' spite, would be a good person to tell. When Aerys orders anything against Rhaegar's family, Jaime could intervene, knowing confidently that the new & rightful king definitely objects and would back him up. Quote How do we know what Brandon of anyone else were thinking when Rhaegar dropped the wreath on Lyanna? This could all have been an acknowledgement of the danger that Rhaegar has just put Lyanna in. He didn't say anything about "danger", and he blamed Rhaegar when Lyanna went missing. Quote What does feudal power have to do with it? It limits the ability of the king to project power. He can only do so via his vassals' assent. Quote Do you think he asked anyone's permission? In order to operate in the Riverlands and obtain the future sister-in-law of Catelyn Tully, their "permission" would indeed be a problem. Quote Aerys has soldiers and guards and men of high degree who could easily dispatch a group of armed men to take Rhaegar into custody Ned Stark picked out a number of men to each lead twenty soldiers into the Riverlands to bring justice to Gregor Clegane. He was doing this in response to a request from the Tullys, thus he had their permission (they were definitely in favor). That number of men turned out not to be enough, despite operating in friendly territory. A large number of people is harder to keep secret, but the reports we have are of Rhaegar and a small number of companions abducting Lyanna. If, as the fan-theory goes, Lyanna was already on very good terms with Rhaegar, it's easier to understand how he didn't need that many people to get her. Aerys needs to abduct both his popular & formidable warrior son, along with Lyanna many leagues away at something like the same time, and somehow conceal any evidence of his part in either. That's fantastically improbable and I doubt Aerys could have gotten people to participate in a plan which is the opposite of fool-proof. Quote What is not possible is that the kidnap/rape story spreading across the land if it wasn't true. Westeros is a patriarchal culture. If Lyanna is taken by Rhaegar even though she's betrothed to Robert, her family won't care if she consented. If you've heard of "the rape of the Sabine women", they were also supposedly going willingly, but the word "rape" merely meant to take, and in the Sabine case over the violent objections of their fathers. Quote No, nobody every says Dayne or Whent were part of the "kidnapping" It's in the World of Ice and Fire app. Quote Noble, chivalrous knights would not help a friend commit atrocities against a lady Knights violating what you would perceive to be noble ideals is so kingsguard. This very KG, often idealized in the books' timeline, even explained to Jaime how it wasn't their place to judge Aerys' actions while he burned people alive in front of their newest member. Quote They would not obey an order to help him kidnap a lady, hold her against her will, rape her repeatedly That actually does sound like standard operating procedure for some prior kings. Quote Political/military alliances are cemented by marriage. This is how it was done in the Middle Ages, and this is how it is done in Westeros In the actual Middle Ages, but Westeros is a world where Targaryen dragon-riding supremacy was powered by incest. When offered a powerful marriage alliance via Tywin's daughter, Aerys rejected her because Tywin was a "servant". Quote To say that Aerys was not the slightest bit concerned about the potential power blocs arising from the great houses suddenly marrying one another is ludicrous You might think it ludicrous, but you're not Aerys. The evidence we have is of him dismissing a marriage alliance with a lord paramount, not trying to grab one for himself. Quote This is the principal way the Game of Thrones is played. Not the way Aerys played it. Quote Aerys is there to disrupt any plots against his rule, which he is convinced is happening because to all the marriages taking place No, he was convinced because Rhaegar was more popular than him, and Tywin indicated he was fine with Aerys dying because Rhaegar was a better king, and also had a captain-of-the-guards bragging that Tywin really ran the kingdom. We get nothing about him being bothered by other families marrying each other. Quote This is why the Tyrells sided with Aerys Mace Tyrell spent most of the war at a banquet table, and surrendered to Ned Stark without putting up any fight. He took the minimum amount of risk to still qualify as a loyalist. He was not a man who acted like he had anything to fear from the rebels. Quote And who knows what Howland told Ned? Ned certainly doesn't seem to believe the kidnap/rape story. Again, he seemed to have been on the same page as Robert through the rebellion until KL 7 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said: If we look at how little information Bran got from them in all those months they've spent together, than I can only assume that Howland didn't find out everything in those two years with the green men. There is the possibility that Howland knows a whole lot more than he's told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manderly's Rat Cook Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Bronze does, since that was the metal they knew how to forge. Iron was brought over by the Andals though, so despite Bran's supposition I would suspect that bit post-dates the Andal invasion. Quote Quote Sorry about the quote in quote, couldn't remove it.. Anyway, want that steel rather than iron? If I remember correctly they could work with both bronze and iron, and steel was a later invention of the Andals. Iron isn't that hard to forge, it's made of just iron ore, whereas steel is an alloy. Bronze and iron are mentioned together an awful lot in first men lore.. like the bronze and iron Royce armor, and the crowns of the old kings of Winterfell (and the crown Robb has made for himself). It's strongly suggested that there's something magical in the combination of the two. Quote I definitely agree. Rhaegar & Melisandre both seem to have gotten prophecy wrong, as it will "bite your prick off every time". Arya gets to hear prophecy from the Ghost of High Heart, but no one in the audience seems to understand it (readers are able to get most of it by the end of the book). Daenerys doesn't know what the things in the HotU mean. Are you supposing Howland DID share information which caused that? Or are you just arguing against a version where he did but didn't tell Ned here? I was suggesting that Howland has gained some important information from the green men, and might have shared at least some of it with Benjen, Lyanna and/or Rhaegar, but probably not all of what he learned, and also that the green men probably didn't give him all the answers. It's possible that Rhaegar drew certain conclusions based on Howland's intel, in combination with whatever he already learned about the prophecy, that made him run off with Lyanna. I also think that if this information made them run off together, he would've shared that with Ned as well, and he also had more time with Ned to tell him what he learned from the green men, so I think it's likely that Ned knew more of whatever Howland found out than Lyanna and Rhaegar. The whole series is about people acting on incomplete information that is open to interpretation, so I think no human being has all the answers. The only one who might get more of a complete picture will be Bran, since he's set up to become that person. BR may know the full picture as well, but he's too old to leave the cave. To me it seems just wrong to have a person out in the open for decades, who is capable of traveling and communicating by normal means, and also appears to be a 'good guy', who has all the answers, and just sits on them for decades doing nothing. That doesn't make sense. I'm sure that Howland has some vital information, but he either doesn't know it, or he misses other vital information that would make him act on it. Quote Not during the rebellion, as far as I can tell. Ned & Robert were on the same page up until the sack of KL. The bit where Ned seems to know really seems to be regarding the Tower of Joy. Even Aerys & his loyalists didn't seem to know where Rhaegar was, with LC Hightower eventually finding the Tower but not returning and merely sending Rhaegar back. Robert & his allies didn't seem to know about it, and Ned only brought a small group of people. My guess is that Ned learned about it not too long before journeying to it. Yes I agree. That was what I meant actually, that Ned learned the reason why Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar from Howland, during that long journey to the ToJ. They where in a small group, and had plenty of time to talk. He must have found out something shortly before that journey, since must have found out somehow where she was. The whole tower of joy itself is a bit of a mystery to be fair. Why that tower? Was anyone living there? How on earth did Ned break down that entire tower with just a few people, and a newborn baby? How did Ned know she was there? So many questions.. Quote I should note that basically nobody seems to have anticipated that. Melisandre acts as if they're a confirmation of her Manichean worldview, but I don't think she told Stannis about them early on, as her & Stannis' attention only gets diverted northward in ASoS. I think she believed that Stannis needed to be king to become the personification of Azor Ahai, and would be able to beat them afterwards. Perhaps she didn't really know or understand the wall, or not enough to realise that that was where it's at. Her motives are quite obscure.. perhaps she believed that the defense against the Great Other would take place within Westeros (which is going to be the case anyway), but later realised there was a chance of preventing the Others from entering at all. It's also unclear if she knew there would be an army of White Walkers, or just believed in some sort of evil deity, who is the opposite of R'hllor. It's clear that she truly believed Stannis to be Azor Ahai, but it's unclear why she needed him to be king. Was that mentioned in the prophecy? Or was it to convince Stannis that the prophecy was real? Was it because he would have access to a larger army of he were king? She seems to have changed her mind about Stannis now, and has focused her attention on Jon, but she isn't going out of her way to make him king.. She seems to believe that Azor Ahai and the PtwP are the same thing, so Stannis being a Prince as the brother of Robert should've been enough, right? Quote The characters in this series CANNOT connect the dots like readers, because they have limited perspectives and don't know lots of things we know. They don't even know they're in a novel written by GRRM, with Doylist explanations & Chekov's guns. I don't recall Rhaegar saying anything about a magic sword. Melisandre believes in Lightbringer, but she's also a R'hllorist whose mental framework is shaped by that religion. The Targaryens placed more importance on dragons rather than swords. Who says there is any "the one" who hears it? Those are all nice things she did, but have nothing to do with the green men. I cannot agree more. The fact that literally EVERYONE in the books acts on incomplete information, in combination with the limitations of their own worldview, past experiences and culture, are a vital element of the books. We as readers get as much of the complete story as possible, and even that is limited, and open to speculations, and will be in many respects, when the books are finished. I seriously doubt there is one true, and complete prophecy in existence, since they've all been conveyed by word of mouth, are ripe with symbolism, and vague. I don't think there will be a point where all questions about the various prophecies will be answered, since they'd lose their mystery and appeal. There's enough reason to believe that the green men have some of the answers, and possibly have shared some of that information with Howland Reed, but even their knowledge may have limitations, and would be influenced by their specific history and culture. Would the green men know everything that ever went on in Yi Ti or Asshai? I seriously doubt it, and yet there are myths, and prophecies about the long night in those places, and they differ from the ones in Westeros. A vital part of the story is that there's not one answer to the prophecies. Sure, we may get an answer to who the PtwP, Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are, or if they're all the same person, but chances are that not all of the blanks will be filled in, that there won't be an answer to what the original prophecy was exactly, or the full prophecy. In the end we will probably still have to try to connect all the dots, even if we have more information than anyone in the books has ever had. Quote I'm saying absence of evidence is evidence of absence. He's been in contact with folks who could have told him something rather important, but they haven't. Yes, Meera and Jojen have only shared some information about the Tourney of Harrenhal. They might know some bits and pieces of prophecy, but it seems unlikely that they'd know all about it, and didn't say a single thing about it. It also seems unlikely that Howland knows the entire prophecy, than sends his kids to their likely deaths, and doesn't share why. He might know some things, he can't possibly know all things. Quote Because we already have the scene where Rhaegar declares that Aegon's is the "song of ice and fire" (a belief Aemon confirmed Rhaegar held), AFTER the tourney where you think he learned Lyanna had to be the mother of TPTWP. To me that's another example of Rhaegar being wrong because he doesn't have access to all the information we readers have, and because prophecies are hard to interpret. I don't think Rhaegar "disbelieved" something Lyanna told him, because I don't think she told him of any prophecy, nor do I think Howland told her. I do think that either of them may have given Rhaegar some information that made him fill in a blank, and decided that Lyanna was somehow important to fulfilling the prophecy. I think part of it may have been that the mother mother of the PtwP was a warrior queen. A Nymeria of sorts. Elia was a descendant of Nymeria, so he may have assumed it was her first, but then Lyanna as the KotLT made him realise she might be the one. It's possible that Howland gave him a piece of information, that made him connect the dots, perhaps something about Lyanna's lineage, the Last Hero or the Night King.. who knows.. but I seriously doubt that Howland just told him or Lyanna the entire prophecy, or would've known the entire prophecy at all. Quote And it usually stays that way. Again, we don't get any magic sword for TPTWP. The Rhoynar believe it was a "secret song" from a united group of people that brought back the day, with the lone hero merely convincing them to unite. In Yi Ti they believe the hero was a woman with a monkey's tale, but there's nothing about a magic sword. The belief in the magic sword Lightbringer seems to be specific to Asshai & R'hllorists who picked it up from there. Even the last hero is merely said to have some companions who died, but not a magic sword, as his sword actually broke due to the cold. He's assisted to victory by the Children, though it's unclear exactly how. I think all the prophecies are about a group of people, who could stop the Long Night together. Some prophecies and myths may be different versions of the same person, but others are about someone else. No hero is going to conquer all alone. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. All the different myths fill in some of the blanks. Every prophecy could apply to multiple people, some prophecies may even be about multiple people, combined into one person. Could be that the various prophecies apply to seven people.. or not.. we'll probably never really know for sure where all the prophecies fit in exactly, not truly anyway. Quote Not obviously, the last hero lived in the past while the "promise" is for the future. The last hero isn't even said to be of noble birth. He is merely the equivalent of a "final girl" in a horror movie who survives after everyone else dies. True, the Last Hero is a legend, not a prophecy, there are indications however, that history is cyclic in the books, so there is a pretty good chance that there will be a Last Hero figure again, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the same person as in the prophecies. Quote The wiki has a calculation for when Aegon was born here. Elia Martell married Rhaegar in 280, and with a half-year recovery after birthing Rhaenys, there's just not enough time for Aegon to have been born prior to the Tourney. Who says it had to be a late stage of her pregnancy? It could be in the early stages. People were epecially concerned with her health AFTER she gave birth, as her pregnancies were difficult. She was bedridden for half a year after Rhaenys, so if Aegon was the final straw per the maesters, would they really permit such travel AFTER that? This is quite interesting.. so if I understand correctly; the tourney took place while Elia was pregnant, but Rhaegar choose to crown Lyanna anyway, even though he still believed that Elia would be the mother of the PtwP. He then traveled back with Elia, saw his son, said he's the PtwP, and then went on to "kidnap" Lyanna, because Elia couldn't have more children.. that seems like it would've taken a very long time, and seems a bit off.. why crown Lyanna before he knew Elia wouldn't have more children? The crowning seems too significant to just be a compliment for being the KotLT. Sure he could've fallen in love with her, but he comes across as a person too composed to do an irrational thing like that, just because he had a crush on a girl he just met. Quote The vision of Daenerys & Drogo's son is a thing that never was, because it's an alternate future. Rhaegar is in the past, and his claim that "there must be one more" is considered a key piece of evidence for R+L=J. We've even got GRRM confirming the infant in that vision is Aegon, and I don't see any of that is necessary if the vision never really happened and we should just ignore evidence in it. I agree. It also makes sense that she would get at least one full and clear vision of the present, the future, a future that never was, and the past. What she gets is (presumably) the war of 5 kings (present), the red wedding (future), Rhaego (future that never was), and Rhaegar (past). I've always felt a bit conflicted about the Wo5K interpretation of the beautiful woman being ravaged, but it just makes sense that all times are represented in the clear visions, otherwise all the visions in the HotU are basically bullshit, and that would be disappointing. There needs to be enough truth for it to be captivated, and enough mystery and room for interpretation and confusion, to keep her and the reader guessing. We are meant to recognise those first visions, so that we'll break or heads about the mumbled mess that comes after them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 10 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said: Anyway, want that steel rather than iron? If I remember correctly they could work with both bronze and iron, and steel was a later invention of the Andals. Iron isn't that hard to forge, it's made of just iron ore, whereas steel is an alloy. No, the First Men were in effectively a Bronze Age, and iron is hard to forge relative to bronze, which is why the Iron Age came later in our history and was significantly different. Bran specifically remembers the First Men using bronze swords & shields against the obsidian of the Children of the Forest. Here's a quote associating each group with a specific metal: Quote "The children of the forest are all dead," said Mormont. "The First Men killed half of them with bronze blades, and the Andals finished the job with iron. Why a glass dagger should—" Illyrio also responds to a myth of the Seven granting Hugor Hill with iron armor by noting that the Andals must have learned ironworking from the Rhoynar. Quote and/or Rhaegar We have no indication of Howland interacting with Rhaegar at all. He has reason to interact with his liege lords the Starks, but not someone as high up as the crown prince. Quote I think part of it may have been that the mother mother of the PtwP was a warrior queen. A Nymeria of sorts. Elia was a descendant of Nymeria, so he may have assumed it was her first, but then Lyanna as the KotLT made him realise she might be the one As late as the vision in the HotU, Rhaegar still thinks Aegon is the PtwP and the remaining child is just the third head. And that's after the tourney at Harrenhal. Quote I think all the prophecies are about a group of people, who could stop the Long Night together. Some prophecies and myths may be different versions of the same person, but others are about someone else. No hero is going to conquer all alone. Perhaps something like Seven Soldiers of Victory? Quote why crown Lyanna before he knew Elia wouldn't have more children? The crowning seems too significant to just be a compliment for being the KotLT Perhaps to you, but the characters don't necessarily think like us. Quote he comes across as a person too composed to do an irrational thing like that He doesn't seem to have been an especially practical person. Even if he did already want Lyanna to bear his third head of the dragon, you'd think he'd still want to be discrete and not needlessly tick off everyone at the tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion I Targaryen Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 I buy a theory that I read some time ago. Rhaegar was the one who did this in order to call a Great Council in Harrenhal to depose Aerys or force a regent on him. The North, Vale, Riverlands and Stormlands seemed to follow him but secretly agreeed to vote for Robert instead of Rhaegar. Varys informed Aerys of the plot and Lyanna informed Rhaegar in order to get rid of Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny Arrives Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 I would love to know my self. I mean when is shaming your wife considered part of "the plan" then running away for a year to play hide the sword with a northern girl leaving your dad on the throne all that time. Then he has the gall to tell jamie he should have done it sooner?? I mean come on you didn't think about that for the time your went off to feed lyanna the cheddar biscuits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 On 10/15/2020 at 1:17 PM, Manderly's Rat Cook said: I'd forgotten that it was that long. Perhaps you're right, but I do believe that to "get the full picture" or understand it entirely, one must look through the trees, and other magical things. Or at least to be able to understand the meaning of the prophecy. I don't know.. it just seems off that Howland would've been sitting on literally all the information, without ever taking action to do anything with it. And why wouldn't Meera and Jojen tell Bran more stories to enlighten him about what's going on. If we look at how little information Bran got from them in all those months they've spent together, than I can only assume that Howland didn't find out everything in those two years with the green men. That being said; even if he knows the full prophecy, I doubt that he's be able to convey it to Lyanna/Rhaegar in one night, but wouldn't tell Ned half as much in the months they spent together.. I find it hard to imagine that Ned knew the entire prophecy.. I mean I obviously can't disapprove it, I just never got the impression that he even had any idea of the bigger picture of things. Sure he was down to earth and rational, and might not have taken it seriously, but on the other hand; if he had the most vital information, and knew the entire prophecy... Wouldn't we at least have gotten some hints that he had done deeper knowledge? Like a dream, or just a thought about that story Howland once told him. Obviously without sharing the whole prophecy, but we never get any hints in that direction. The only hints we get is that there's more to the story of Lyanna's abduction (which at that point in the books is still 'probably love or something'), and that there could be a baby.. I don't know.. Ned just seems like an unlikely Knower of all knowledge to me. I might be wrong, and we may never find out how much he knew, but my gut feeling tells me he had only bits and pieces of information. Howland probably knows more (at least that's what I think), but I wonder how much he knows.. I don't know if he'd have enough information to connect all the dots. Do the green men have an agenda? And does sharing all the details of a prophecy fit into that agenda? Up until now everyone seems to have one, so why not the green men. If their agenda is to make the prophecy come true, than it may serve their purpose to withhold crucial information; information that would negatively influence one's motivation to make the prophecy come true. Would Howland be willing to cooperate at all costs? Even if that cost would be his own children? I think everyone has only limited knowledge available to them, except perhaps those who are hooked to the weirwoodnet. On the other hand it's quite possible that even if one does know the entire prophecy in its true, original form, it's still impossible to connect all the dots without being connected to the supercomputer weirwoodnet. I also wonder if it's an actual song, and what language it's in. Well, he did do something with the information: he told Lyanna. And since we don't know what the soiaf is or how complicated it is to explain, why would we assume if couldn't be done in one night, or even one hour. And who's to say it was explained in one night? Maybe it took a few. Why would Howland need to tell Jojen and Mirra about this? He told them the story of the KotLT, that's all they need to know. Why would he choose not to tell Ned? Maybe because of what the last Stark went and did when she learned the truth? And who is to say that Howland "found out everything" from the Green Men? I can imagine they have a lot to tell considering they've been in existence since the Dawn Age -- probably more than can be relayed in two years. I'm sure the GM have an agenda, or more accurately, a purpose. Whatever it is, though, it stretches out over the eons and likely has global ramifications, like the return of the Long Night. So sure, I see no reason why the GM would divulge any more information to Howland that they felt they had to, nor is it clear that they knew exactly what Howland or Lyanna or anybody would do from this point on. And sorry, but I don't see how Howland is jeopardizing his own children in any of this. They're not even born yet. It would be something like the song of the earth that the children sing. And it is probably an amalgam of the languages used by those who sing the song of ice and those who sing the song of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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