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Alyn Oakenfist

Ned treated Jon really badly

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So a lot of people have a problem with Cat for how she treated Jon. But think about it, she thought him the bastard son of her husband, with a woman she didn't know and he was being paraded in front of him. So why Cat was a bit of a bitch to Jon, I can't really blame him. Who I can blame however, is Ned. So...

- First off he pisses a bit on his sisters memory by going along with the lie that it was kidnapping, when it so obviously wasn't (might have been something wrong there after Brandon's death, but no way it was kidnapping). Nice honor you got there Ned.

- Then he takes the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and makes him a bastard. Sure he's treated better then most bastards, but he's still looked down upon. Ned might have promised to keep him safe, but not to keep him happy or respected.

- Furthermore, he refuses to tell the boy the truth, letting him suffer wondering who his mom was. Again nice honor you got there Ned.

- He also refuses to tell his wife the truth, instead letting her hate the boy, for no reason other then his lies.

- He continues to support a fat oaf of a King, who can't be bothered to rule, who claims he loved his sister but has made whoring a sport and who revels at dead children and tries to kill some more.

- All the while he has the rightful King of Westeros by his side and keeps on that he's a bastard. Now is he protecting Jon, or is he protecting the fat leech, and the second coming of Aerys the second in the form of his heir.

- Even more then that, when he learns the truth, he keeps on about how Stannis is the rightful King... Is he really Ned?

- But the worst part is the Watch. Ned actively encourages Jon to join the Nights Watch.

- He purposefully withholds the truth of how much of a shithole the Watch is, knowing that is Jon knew he wouldn't in a million years join.

- He is perfectly content to let the child of his sister and the rightful King of Westeros to rot at the Wall, miserable and childless.

Really honorable of him, what can I say

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33 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- First off he pisses a bit on his sisters memory by going along with the lie that it was kidnapping, when it so obviously wasn't (might have been something wrong there after Brandon's death, but no way it was kidnapping). Nice honor you got there Ned.

 

He doesn't. If anything he protects her memory. The story would be much worse if were told, "that skank from the north, seduced a married man, cucked her fiance, and runned away from her family letting her father and brother to die in the process while causing a massive civil war". As thing stands at most she is a victim of Rhaegar's crimes.

35 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Then he takes the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and makes him a bastard. Sure he's treated better then most bastards, but he's still looked down upon. Ned might have promised to keep him safe, but not to keep him happy or respected.

 

Jon would still be a bastard, Rhaegar was already wed and wasn't to Lyanna. Jon would just have a hit list on him from his birth.

37 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Furthermore, he refuses to tell the boy the truth, letting him suffer wondering who his mom was. Again nice honor you got there Ned.

 

I bet that if he told a lie about a girl that never existed you would still blame him for lying, and the truth wouldn't do him any good.

38 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- He continues to support a fat oaf of a King, who can't be bothered to rule, who claims he loved his sister but has made whoring a sport and who revels at dead children and tries to kill some more.

 

Yeah, because Robert is the reason he is alive. Had them not rebelled against Aerys, their heads would be on the red keep for the crime of existing. And whatever about Robert's whoring, it's not unusual for the nobility as we see with Edmure, Brandon, Oberyn, Tywin, Jorah and Tyrion.

41 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- All the while he has the rightful King of Westeros by his side and keeps on that he's a bastard. Now is he protecting Jon, or is he protecting the fat leech, and the second coming of Aerys the second in the form of his heir.

 

Once again, Jon would still just be a bastard, and not the true king. And the anwser is he is protecting both, his oaf friend, and his nephew.

44 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- But the worst part is the Watch. Ned actively encourages Jon to join the Nights Watch.

 

He doens't . Jon decided to go, of his own will despite the fact that Benjen told him not to. It's not Ned's fault that Jon, is great at ignoring red flags around him.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jon would still be a bastard, Rhaegar was already wed and wasn't to Lyanna.

We don't know that for sure, it's perfectly possible for Rhaegar to have gone for some polygamy. Even if he hadn't, Jon is still has a better claim then Robert.

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He doens't . Jon decided to go, of his own will despite the fact that Benjen told him not to. It's not Ned's fault that Jon, is great at ignoring red flags around him.

Yes it's definitely the fault of a 14 year old boy, who's father kept telling him that the Watch is such a noble calling. Ned never bothered to explain to Jon that the Watch is a shithole. Also would On have joined the Watch had he known who his parents are?

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

We don't know that for sure, it's perfectly possible for Rhaegar to have gone for some polygamy. Even if he hadn't, Jon is still has a better claim then Robert.

 

And who would respect Rhaegar the corpses or Rhaegar the hamered will ? Just because entitled idiot that doomed his entired dynasty though he could get away with this BS, does not mean others would agree with him.

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes it's definitely the fault of a 14 year old boy, who's father kept telling him that the Watch is such a noble calling. Ned never bothered to explain to Jon that the Watch is a shithole. Also would On have joined the Watch had he known who his parents are?

Of course it is. When Ned hears about sending Jon to the wall he oposes it until be reveled that Jon wanted it for himself. Jon ignored everything that was on his face, just like Jaime he was dumb enough to make a eternal vow to something unkown to him, despite being warned not to, by his own family.

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Ned treated Catelyn really badly not telling her about R+L=J. It is no good to confess to your spouse "baby I cheated on you" without important reason (just to get rid of the burden) but it takes fucking sadist to make up such story and bring a kid to make it look even more real XDDDD

The more I think about Ned the more it seems to me he was horrible dumbass.

btw I find a bit unrealistic Catelyns hate towards Jon lasting so many years, time heals such wounds and people tend to get along in favorable circumstances, but that's another story.

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Just now, broken one said:

Ned treated Catelyn really badly not telling her about R+L=J. It is no good to confess to your spouse "baby I cheated on you" without important reason (just to get rid of the burden) but it takes fucking sadist to make up such story and bring a kid to make it look even more real XDDDD

Yeah, he messed up both Cat and Jon. Like obviously not telling the realm is the sane decision, but not telling Cat and Jon is just sadism, and not doing anything about it, passively trying to have Jon join the Watch is dishonorable to put it mildly

1 minute ago, broken one said:

The more I think about Ned the more it seems to me he was horrible dumbass.

:agree:

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11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And that has nothing to do with Ned's lie?

Ned didn't lie about the wall, it still a place where a bastard can raise in the ranks, as Jon is the living proof of that. The fact that Jon just ignored everyone and everything because he was a moody and needy boy it's not on Ned. 

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2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

The fact that Jon just ignored everyone and everything because he was a moody and needy boy it's not on Ned. 

One, Ned could have told Jon the truth or the fact that he was way too young for such a vow

Also, who's fault is it for Jon being "a moody needy boy"? Surely not the man that made him a pariah

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Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also, who's fault is it for Jon being "a moody needy boy"? Surely not the man that made him a pariah

Ned didn't made him a pariah, pretty much the oposite to it. Jon received the same education that Robb, that was the heir, Jon lived like a noble, was groomed as such, was close to his family. 

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1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Ned didn't made him a pariah, pretty much the oposite to it. Jon received the same education that Robb, that was the heir, Jon lived like a noble, was groomed as such, was close to his family. 

Except he was always considered to be Ned's by blow, and never allowed to forget that

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Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Except he was always considered to be Ned's by blow, and never allowed to forget that

He should not forget his place. It's natural that Ned make this sure. Nobody wants a Daemon in their family.

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1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

He should not forget his place. It's natural that Ned make this sure.

"His place" is based on a lie

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Just now, Arthur Peres said:

If the truth came to light, his "place" would be bellow the ground.

Or on the Throne if Ned played his cards right

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He would never have enough support either way.

Well, for one, Ned could easily execute a palace coup once he became Hand, if he had the brains of an eel.

Also he'd have a lot of support, again if Ned played smart. The Reach and Dorne would both side with him, maybe some marriages needed there (Jon and Robb to Arianne and Marge perhaps). The Riverlands would split, especially if the Freys were placated, while Littlefinger would support whoever won in the end. This only really leaves the Westerlands and the Stormlands against them and whatever is left from Riverlands.

As for being a bastard, I doubt even Ned knows for sure, it's questionable.

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also he'd have a lot of support, again if Ned played smart. The Reach and Dorne would both side with him, maybe some marriages needed there (Jon and Robb to Arianne and Marge perhaps). The Riverlands would split, especially if the Freys were placated, while Littlefinger would support whoever won in the end. This only really leaves the Westerlands and the Stormlands against them and whatever is left from Riverlands.

 

This is not CK. Jon is a bastard, raised in the north, without friends, or a strong legal claim with a story that most people would not belive . Viserys had much more tools, the claim, the looks, the name, legitimacy and look how he was treated.

After Balon no one would defy Robert, and considering the fat oaf beat armies five times his numbers in his rebellion only idiots (like Balon) would try it anyway.

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Just now, Arthur Peres said:

This is not CK. Jon is a bastard, raised in the north, without friends, or a strong legal claim with a story that most people would not belive . Viserys had much more tools, the claim, the looks, the name, legitimacy and look how he was treated.

After Balon no one would defy Robert, and considering the fat oaf beat armies five times his numbers in his rebellion only idiots (like Balon) would try it anyway.

Viserys did not have the guaranteed support of one of the strongest realms, nor was he present there and he could get at most one alliance by marriage. Jon could easily have 3

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Then he takes the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and makes him a bastard. Sure he's treated better then most bastards, but he's still looked down upon. Ned might have promised to keep him safe, but not to keep him happy or respected.

- Even more then that, when he learns the truth, he keeps on about how Stannis is the rightful King... Is he really Ned?

The Entire rightful king is kind of nebulous. If a Targaryen Restoration led by Jon occurred then sure he's the rightful king and always was. Stannis wins, Robert was the rightful king and upon his death he became the Rightful king. Tommen and the Lannisters win, Joffrey and Tommen were the rightful sons of Robert and Stannis is an usurper. Daenerys wins, Robert was an Usurper and Jon is a bastard who at best might be legitimized as a heir if necessary if Daenerys can control the narrative. The truth doesn't really matter. Who wins does. Daeron the good was the rightful king because he beat Daemon not necessarily because he was legitimate and Daemon was a legitimized bastard.

 In the real world Richard III might not have been the rightful king but the rightful king most certainly wasn't Henry Tudor. Yet Henry VII became the rightful king by winning not by law or succession (By those measures anyone with a legitimate tie to the English monarchy would have been in front of him). 

 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- But the worst part is the Watch. Ned actively encourages Jon to join the Nights Watch.

- He purposefully withholds the truth of how much of a shithole the Watch is, knowing that is Jon knew he wouldn't in a million years join.

As said previously the first part is wrong. Ned seems hesitant about Jon joining the Watch. THe problem is he's pressured by Catelyn and under pressure by Robert about going south so he folds to let Jon do something Jon thinks he want to. He should maybe have allowed a more honest view on the state of the watch to reach Jon.

The thing Ned really does is that he tries to constrain Jon's options. We don't see a lot of Bastards but they have more options than just the Watch but Ned doesn't want Jon to head south in some attempt to protect him which cuts off a lot of options. He seems to think he should be something like Robb's right hand man perhaps.

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- He continues to support a fat oaf of a King, who can't be bothered to rule, who claims he loved his sister but has made whoring a sport and who revels at dead children and tries to kill some more.

- All the while he has the rightful King of Westeros by his side and keeps on that he's a bastard. Now is he protecting Jon, or is he protecting the fat leech, and the second coming of Aerys the second in the form of his heir.

Ned is very unaware of how bad a ruler Robert is. He only realizes this after he becomes Hand just how terrible Robert and Joffrey are. Up until that point he had little reason to be concerned. Robert appeared to be ruling the realm well. The Ironborn had risen up but the Ironborn have always been resistive. Once Robert and Joffrey become unavailable he turns to Stannis as he seeks to maintain the Baratheons. Perhaps because Jon is in fact a bastard or born of a union the faith wouldn't recognise like a Polygamous union. Under such circumstances Stannis could make a rightful claim.

 

14 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

After Balon no one would defy Robert, and considering the fat oaf beat armies five times his numbers in his rebellion only idiots (like Balon) would try it anyway.

That's just not true. The only time Robert was likely significantly outnumbered was at Ashford where he was smashed to bits by the Tyrell vanguard. Everywhere else he either defeated a possibly numerically superior force in detail (Summerhall) or was only slightly outnumbered (The Trident) or might have had superior numbers once his reinforcements arrived and the fighting only seriously began after they did (The Bells). He was probably never outnumbered 5 to 1 and even if he ever was he never won a battle at those odds.

 

The thing is Ned is placed in a personally and politically problematic situation with Jon. He's just fought a long war probably had friends die. Lost his brother, sister and father and he's suppose to just believe it was all for nothing. That a simple mistake or breakdown of communications was the reason why everyone thought Rhaegar had kidnapped his sister and his brother and father died. So he decided to accept a version of events in his head that simply makes sense to him and decides to think about as little as possible. Even if he tried to make the claims Jon could be considered the rightful claim anyone who could prove that is dead most likely. Any letters, forgeries. Witnesses, bribed to give false claims. He can't prove it and finding the men to back it up would be even harder. Loyalists wouldn't trust him and rebels would outright oppose him mostly. He decides reasonably that trying would be pointless and just kill more people. So he decides the best option is just go home and forget about it as much as possible. Even fifteen years later Ned still has bad dreams about the stuff that happened during the war. While telling Jon and Catelyn the truth might make them feel better it would also bring up a lot of painful memories he probably just wants to move on from. People don't want to deal with the painful parts of the past. Jon would want to know and Ned might not really want to tell him about it.  Did he do the best for Jon? No but he did the best he could while dealing with a situation that was likely personally very difficult for him.

To be honest exactly what Ned was thinking will never be known since he's very much dead.

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