Ned treated Jon really badly

[R2D]

1 minute ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You’re really reaching. We’re told that he secured the castle before they arrived after getting wind of their movements and beat them before they could unite their forces and move against him. It’s called defeat in detail. Look it up.

You basically want us to ignore all of the evidence from the books that indicates that he was capable, even though he’s had mostly successes, even when he was gratuitously outnumbered and his abilities as a commander are constantly being touted.

It's pretty easy to secure a ruined castle. And it's not reaching at all considering we know he killed/captured Lords Fell, Grandison and Cafferon and his tactic at the Trident was smashing Rhaegar, at which point his host scattered. At Summerhall he simply waited and defeated each army in turn.

[Lee-Sensei]

5 minutes ago, R2D said:

It's pretty easy to secure a ruined castle. And it's not reaching at all considering we know he killed/captured Lords Fell, Grandison and Cafferon and his tactic at the Trident was smashing Rhaegar, at which point his host scattered. At Summerhall he simply waited and defeated each army in turn.

I don’t know what you mean by that first part. It’s easy to secure a ruined castle? Okay. Why did he take Summerhall before the royalist could?

We don’t know what his tactics at the Trident were. All we know about that battle is that Rhaegar was trying to cross the river and Robert killed him there.

Why did he go there in the first place? Why didn’t he wait for them to unite instead of attacking them while they were divided? All he does is smash people, right?

[R2D]

5 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I don’t know what you mean by that first part. It’s easy to secure a ruined castle? Okay. Why did he take Summerhall before the royalist could?

We don’t know what his tactics at the Trident were. All we know about that battle is that Rhaegar was trying to cross the river and Robert killed him there.

Why did he go there in the first place? Why didn’t he wait for them to unite instead of attacking them while they were divided? All he does is smash people, right?

Are you saying it takes a genius to realize that defeating armies one at a time makes more sense than waiting for them to form into one big army? That's like, basic logic.

[Lee-Sensei]

33 minutes ago, R2D said:

Are you saying it takes a genius to realize that defeating armies one at a time makes more sense than waiting for them to form into one big army? That's like, basic logic.

You didn’t answer the question. Didn’t you that Robert was stupid and just rush in and kill people?

Quote

When Stannis describes Robert's battlefield methods he basically just says he would charge in and kill everyone. Many characters all him stupid so are we really supposed to see him as this great tactician/strategist? Don't think so.

If he’s so dumb and defeating armies in detail is so obvious and easy, why was he so effective at it? Shouldn’t the Royalists have seen it coming?

[R2D]

31 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You didn’t answer the question. Didn’t you that Robert was stupid and just smashed people?

Even Gregor would be able to figure that out.

Point is there is simply no evidence Robert is some military genius.

EDIT: Robert is huge and has great endurance, eg fighting even when his entrails were hanging out because of the boar attack, and this was at 36. That's probably why no one could capture/kill him. Though he did get wounded.

[Thandros]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) I’m assuming that you have a source for the population of that Town. The idea that Robert “sent his army away” seems absurd to me, but to each their own.

Arya thinks that Stoney Sept is the largest town she's seen since King's Landing. Implying she's seen larger towns but not recently. This must make it smaller than winter town which has a max population of around 15,000 so it might have a population of 10,000 or so. Not large enough to hide a full army. Also Robert was wounded before the battle so he may have left his army to receive treatment and Connington caught him in Stoney Sept.

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) And this is exactly what I’m talking about. Your beliefs about Robert seem to be more about what you want to be the truth, rather than what’s actually happened in the story as it was written by George. Ned has no reason to lie to Jon about Roberts achievements. And many of the people that are with Stannis now knew him personally. Richard was a candidate for his Kingsguard and Justin Massey was his squire. They’re not the only people that hype him up either. Stannis does it too as I’ve already proven. That part where Stannis he would have crushed the Lannisters if Renly had joined them and that it would have been a victory that Robert could be proud of was said in private. So was this, actually.

"R'hllor chooses queerly, then." The king grimaced, as if he'd tasted something foul. "Why me, and not my brothers? Renly and his peach. In my dreams I see the juice running from his mouth, the blood from his throat. If he had done his duty by his brother, we would have smashed Lord Tywin. A victory even Robert could be proud of. Robert..." His teeth ground side to side. "He is in my dreams as well. Laughing. Drinking. Boasting. Those were the things he was best at. Those, and fighting. I never bested him at anything. The Lord of Light should have made Robert his champion. Why me?"

Ned may not have lied but neither would he have told him an objective truth. He told jon his truth filter through his own experiences, perceptions and circumstances. Jon meets Robert expecting to see this mighty warrior, a charismatic leader and great king. Instead he meets a fat drunken sot who already drunk before the feast even starts. Ned knew Robert quite well and he was still surprised by how much Robert changed. Richard and Justin may have also known Robert at one point only for him to develop further and his character to shift. Stannis hypes up Robert because Robert in his mind is a shadow he can't get out of. Everyone thinks of him in terms of Robert. He wants to win a victory Robert could be proud of so that he can throw off Robert's shadow and be his own man. His entire life has been the lesser brother to Robert. His entire life has to a point been defined by Robert. Just like Ned struggles to break out of being a second son and strives to be as worthy a lord of the North as his brother would have been. As Tygett and Gerion both struggled with being in Tywin's shadow in their own separate ways. Tygett by trying to be a great warrior and Gerion eventually by going off to try and find Brightroar. Stannis wants to break out of Robert's shadow while he subconsciously builds him up. He views himself as inferior to Robert in everything even if that isn't true. Note Stannis thinks of Robert as a fighter, drinker, laugher and boaster. He doesn't think of Robert as a leader or commander.

 

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Feeding off the land is a egitimate method of keeping an army fed on the move.

 

I agree but you don't need to be a good logistican to do so.

 

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) Honestly, it sounds like your stretching. I’ll acknowledge that 100,000 Is a bit of an exaggeration.  But he was facing an overwhelmingly superior army numerically. Stannis does have a reputation as a commander all his own and he later boasts about the victory when he talks to Theon. He could have easily just mentioned his victory, instead of Roberts victory. Also, not a braggart like Robert?

“I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers.”

The Thing is everything he says is literally true. Stannis is trying to convince Theon and himself that he has nothing to fear from the coming army of Freys and Boltons. His own army is in a terrible spot, starving, freezing and without horses. The Freys do have horses and Stannis' position in near indefensible. He's trying to convince himself that he can win by reminding himself of his previous victories. He needs to convince himself he can win so he can convince his men he can win. If can't inspire belief in himself in victory how can he hope to inspire his men to believe the same thing.

 

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) I meant Aeron. Most of these people are considered seasoned battle commanders, but if you don’t count them your position is more understandable. Remember that we don’t know about every battle of Roberts Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion.

 

Aeron does have some military experience as a raider and ship captain. The thing is your counting Mace Tyrell as a seasoned military commander whose entire reputation relies on his indecisive victory. Seasoned only means they've seen battle not that they are a good commander or even competent. There have been military commander who've had lots of experience make horrible blunders and absolute amateurs on their first battle win great victories.

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

6) I think that your simplifying it at least a bit. A good commander needs to be able to motivate soldiers, command respect, manage supplies, they need to make use of geography, they need to surround themselves with scouts and outriders. We’ve already seen that it’s more complicated than that by following various characters from Robb, Jaime, Tyrion, Theon, Stannis etc..

A lot of that is pre battle maneuvering. During an actual battle most of that stuff is done. Once you've selected your location of battle deployed yourself for it your ability to maneuver during battle it limited to pre arranged maneuvers and the deployment of reserves. In actual battle a leader who can lead a charge to destroy a critical flank or kill the enemy leader can be as valuable as anything else once battle is joined. 

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, R2D said:

Even Gregor would be able to figure that out.

Point is there is simply no evidence Robert is some military genius.

EDIT: Robert is huge and has great endurance, eg fighting even when his entrails were hanging out because of the boar attack, and this was at 36. That's probably why no one could capture/kill him. Though he did get wounded.

Gregor is a trained knight with experience leading men in battle and apparently the Lords that he was facing had a hard time figuring it out, because they were captured. We’ve already seen that being a great warrior in personal combat, doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ll win battles. Jaime was a much better fighter than Robb personally, but he was still captured at the Whispering Wood. Robert has great endurance, but he’s not Superman. You can believe what you want though. Most of the evidence from the text doesn’t support you.

[R2D]

27 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Gregor is a trained knight with experience leading men in battle and apparently the Lords that he was facing had a hard time figuring it out, because they were captured. We’ve already seen that being a great warrior in personal combat, doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ll win battles. Jaime was a much better fighter than Robb personally, but he was still captured at the Whispering Wood. Robert has great endurance, but he’s not Superman. You can believe what you want though. Most of the evidence from the text doesn’t support you.

Let's agree to disagree then.

EDIT: Also I meant that Gregor would have lain in wait at Summerhall as well (probably).

[Lee-Sensei]

3 hours ago, Thandros said:

Arya thinks that Stoney Sept is the largest town she's seen since King's Landing. Implying she's seen larger towns but not recently. This must make it smaller than winter town which has a max population of around 15,000 so it might have a population of 10,000 or so. Not large enough to hide a full army. Also Robert was wounded before the battle so he may have left his army to receive treatment and Connington caught him in Stoney Sept.

Ned may not have lied but neither would he have told him an objective truth. He told jon his truth filter through his own experiences, perceptions and circumstances. Jon meets Robert expecting to see this mighty warrior, a charismatic leader and great king. Instead he meets a fat drunken sot who already drunk before the feast even starts. Ned knew Robert quite well and he was still surprised by how much Robert changed. Richard and Justin may have also known Robert at one point only for him to develop further and his character to shift. Stannis hypes up Robert because Robert in his mind is a shadow he can't get out of. Everyone thinks of him in terms of Robert. He wants to win a victory Robert could be proud of so that he can throw off Robert's shadow and be his own man. His entire life has been the lesser brother to Robert. His entire life has to a point been defined by Robert. Just like Ned struggles to break out of being a second son and strives to be as worthy a lord of the North as his brother would have been. As Tygett and Gerion both struggled with being in Tywin's shadow in their own separate ways. Tygett by trying to be a great warrior and Gerion eventually by going off to try and find Brightroar. Stannis wants to break out of Robert's shadow while he subconsciously builds him up. He views himself as inferior to Robert in everything even if that isn't true. Note Stannis thinks of Robert as a fighter, drinker, laugher and boaster. He doesn't think of Robert as a leader or commander.

I agree but you don't need to be a good logistican to do so.

The Thing is everything he says is literally true. Stannis is trying to convince Theon and himself that he has nothing to fear from the coming army of Freys and Boltons. His own army is in a terrible spot, starving, freezing and without horses. The Freys do have horses and Stannis' position in near indefensible. He's trying to convince himself that he can win by reminding himself of his previous victories. He needs to convince himself he can win so he can convince his men he can win. If can't inspire belief in himself in victory how can he hope to inspire his men to believe the same thing.

Aeron does have some military experience as a raider and ship captain. The thing is your counting Mace Tyrell as a seasoned military commander whose entire reputation relies on his indecisive victory. Seasoned only means they've seen battle not that they are a good commander or even competent. There have been military commander who've had lots of experience make horrible blunders and absolute amateurs on their first battle win great victories.

A lot of that is pre battle maneuvering. During an actual battle most of that stuff is done. Once you've selected your location of battle deployed yourself for it your ability to maneuver during battle it limited to pre arranged maneuvers and the deployment of reserves. In actual battle a leader who can lead a charge to destroy a critical flank or kill the enemy leader can be as valuable as anything else once battle is joined. 

1) Do you have the quote? From what you’re telling me, I don’t see why we’d assume that it’s population is smaller than Winter Town. Maester Luwin said that the town was “full to bursting” when it quartered Robbs army in AGOT. That was about 12k soldiers. Why would he got the Stoney Sept for treatment? Robert has his maester with him and I doubt that he went back to Storms Wind after Ashford until after he’d won the Battle of the Trident and taken Kings Kanding.

2) The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Robert is an old, fat, drunken, wreck when Jon meets him. He was a capable warrior and commander in his youth as we see from his string of victories. And yes, Stannis thinks of Robert as a leader and commander. The scene where he says that Robert should have been the Lord of Lights chosen and how they could have won a victory (not in personal combat again, but in leading in a full on war) that would have impressed Robert is when he’s sulking over his defeat on the Blackwater. When Stannis says that Robert won battles while outnumbered worse than 5 to 1, there’s no other way to look at that, besides him acknowledging his skill. It’s not just about big brother worship. Stannis criticizes Robert in many things and a lot of the times he’s right. Robert just has a record of success.

3) His situation was bad when he told Jon that his brother won battles at worse odds than the ones that he was facing. Also, the men seem to have faith in him.

“Whatever doubts his lords might nurse, the common men seemed to have faith in their king. Stannis had smashed Mance Rayder’s wildlings at the Wall and cleaned Asha and her ironborn out of Deepwood Motte; he was Robert’s brother, victor in a famous sea battle off Fair Isle, the man who had held Storm’s End all through Robert’s Rebellion. And he bore a hero’s sword, the enchanted blade Lightbringer, whose glow lit up the night.”

4) Maybe so, but my point remains. There are plenty of Westerosi Lords with experience commanding armies.

5) So given the context of that Stannis quote, you really think that he was talking about Robert overrunning peasants on foot even though he could have very well mentioned his own battle with the wildlings where he faced far odds numerically than 5 to 1?

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, R2D said:

Let's agree to disagree then.

EDIT: Also I meant that Gregor would have lain in wait at Summerhall as well (probably).

Possibly, but Gregor was trained as a knight. He’s not just some dim brute that acts without thinking in combat. As you said, he managed to defeat Berics company and from what we see in Tyrion’s chapters, he didn’t seem to be out of his depth commanding Tywins vanguard. Personal skill at arms isn’t enough to defeat armies in Westeros. That’s not the world that George created and we see that with Robb and Jaime. After initial great victories, he’s lured into a trap by Robb and captured. Without their leader his army is scattered. Saying that Robert never got caught, just because of his endurance doesn’t really cut it. At the same time, even though Jaime lost, we’re never given any indication that he doesn’t know what he’s doing as Kevan points out when Ser Harys criticizes Jaimes abilities as a tactician. As a baseline, we should assume that these people are basically competent. Not necessarily great, but they should know what they’re doing, because half of a noblemans education consists of learning how to fight, ride a horse and command soldiers.

"How could this happen?" Ser Harys Swyft moaned. "How? Even after the Whispering Wood, you had Riverrun ringed in iron, surrounded by a great host... what madness made Ser Jaime decide to split his men into three separate camps? Surely he knew how vulnerable that would leave them?"

Better than you, you chinless craven, Tyrion thought. Jaime might have lost Riverrun, but it angered him to hear his brother slandered by the likes of Swyft, a shameless lickspittle whose greatest accomplishment was marrying his equally chinless daughter to Ser Kevan, and thereby attaching himself to the Lannisters. 

"I would have done the same," his uncle responded, a good deal more calmly than Tyrion might have. "You have never seen Riverrun, Ser Harys, or you would know that Jaime had little choice in the matter. The castle is situated at the end of the point of land where the Tumblestone flows into the Red Fork of the Trident. The rivers form two sides of a triangle, and when danger threatens, the Tullys open their sluice gates upstream to create a wide moat on the third side, turning Riverrun into an island. The walls rise sheer from the water, and from their towers the defenders have a commanding view of the opposite shores for many leagues around. To cut off all the approaches, a besieger must needs place one camp north of the Tumblestone, one south of the Red Fork, and a third between the rivers, west of the moat. There is no other way, none."

"Ser Kevan speaks truly, my lords," the courier said. "We'd built palisades of sharpened stakes around the camps, yet it was not enough, not with no warning and the rivers cutting us off from each other. They came down on the north camp first. No one was expecting an attack. Marq Piper had been raiding our supply trains, but he had no more than fifty men. Ser Jaime had gone out to deal with them the night before... well, with what we thought was them. We were told the Stark host was east of the Green Fork, marching south . . . "

"And your outriders?" Ser Gregor Clegane's face might have been hewn from rock. The fire in the hearth gave a somber orange cast to his skin and put deep shadows in the hollows of his eyes. "They saw nothing? They gave you no warning?"

I left the last part about Gregor Clegane in, because it’s worth mentioning that he’s the one that asks about their outriders. You use him as an example of an idiot who’s could have and would have done the same thing as Robert at Summerhall, but he was trained for this and he knows what he’s doing. Now with Robert, we have someone with more battles under his belt than Jaime, his only known defeat was minor and indecisive, he’s won battles at odds worse than 5 to 1, he’s repeatedly praised as a commander by a variety of sources, he’s famous for the speed whith which he can move his armies, he destroyed three armies in a single day by defeating them in detail, he was charismatic and loved by his soldiers and commanders, he was able to win over defeated enemies to his cause and he has two successful wars under his belt. He destroyed a 300 year old dynasty.

I don’t want to be pedantic, but these people don’t just run up and kill guys. That’s not how this works. There’s a great deal of planning that goes into these battles and we have no reason to believe that some mysterious figure was telling Robert what to do when he won all of those victories.

[Thandros]

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Do you have the quote? From what you’re telling me, I don’t see why we’d assume that it’s population is smaller than Winter Town. Maester Luwin said that the town was “full to bursting” when it quartered Robbs army in AGOT. That was about 12k soldiers. Why would he got the Stoney Sept for treatment? Robert has his maester with him and I doubt that he went back to Storms Wind after Ashford until after he’d won the Battle of the Trident and taken Kings Kanding.

 

Arya V (ASOS) Stoney Sept was the biggest town Arya had seen since King's Landing, and Harwin said her father had won a famous battle here.

"The Mad King's men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father," he told her as they rode toward the gate. "He was wounded, being tended by some friends, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and began searching house by house."

For the second point it is literally there in the text. As for the why we haven't been given that but unless you believe Harwin who was there is telling a pile of rubbish then Robert was definitely wounded and taking shelter in Stoney Sept.

For the Population it's about the context of statement. If Stoney Sept was larger than winter town Arya would describe Stoney Sept as the largest town she'd ever seen perhaps. Instead she deliberately limits the scope to places she's seen since leaving King's Landing.

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Robert is an old, fat, drunken, wreck when Jon meets him. He was a capable warrior and commander in his youth as we see from his string of victories. And yes, Stannis thinks of Robert as a leader and commander. The scene where he says that Robert should have been the Lord of Lights chosen and how they could have won a victory (not in personal combat again, but in leading in a full on war) that would have impressed Robert is when he’s sulking over his defeat on the Blackwater. When Stannis says that Robert won battles while outnumbered worse than 5 to 1, there’s no other way to look at that, besides him acknowledging his skill. It’s not just about big brother worship. Stannis criticizes Robert in many things and a lot of the times he’s right. Robert just has a record of success.

 

I didn't say i was mutually exclusive. What I was saying is that gave an image of Robert which while accurate in Ned's mind was actually not very accurate of the kind of person king Robert actually was. Which influences Jon's later perceptions of him when he thinks about how Robert would act. 

I also don't quite how Stannis winning a victory that would make Robert proud somehow makes Robert into this god like awesome commander. It's just as likely that Robert didn't seemed impressed with his victory at Fiar Island and as a result wants to finally win a victory that Robert would unreservedly acknowledge him for. 5 to 1 sounds a lot worse than it actually is depending on the circumstances. Numbers are additive and you win battles by using multipliers. 

7 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) His situation was bad when he told Jon that his brother won battles at worse odds than the ones that he was facing. Also, the men seem to have faith in him.

“Whatever doubts his lords might nurse, the common men seemed to have faith in their king. Stannis had smashed Mance Rayder’s wildlings at the Wall and cleaned Asha and her ironborn out of Deepwood Motte; he was Robert’s brother, victor in a famous sea battle off Fair Isle, the man who had held Storm’s End all through Robert’s Rebellion. And he bore a hero’s sword, the enchanted blade Lightbringer, whose glow lit up the night.”

Maybe but he still needs to instill faith in himself and his lords. 

7 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) Maybe so, but my point remains. There are plenty of Westerosi Lords with experience commanding armies.

 

Maybe but Robert's combat record is long mostly because of how the battles particularly in the Rebellion went. After initial fighting in the vale which he was part of it moved to the Stormlands and then the Riverlands to a degree with him. Many may also have experience but most of them are probably barely competent let alone good.

7 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) So given the context of that Stannis quote, you really think that he was talking about Robert overrunning peasants on foot even though he could have very well mentioned his own battle with the wildlings where he faced far odds numerically than 5 to 1?

Impossible to say. He might simply have caught an army with it's pants down literally to achieve it or a night raid on an enemy camp or maybe a cavalry charge against an ill disciplined and organized enemy. We can't really say. It's an example of how 5 to 1 odds might be in no way indicative of the actual combat balance of power.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Thandros said:

Arya V (ASOS) Stoney Sept was the biggest town Arya had seen since King's Landing, and Harwin said her father had won a famous battle here.

"The Mad King's men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father," he told her as they rode toward the gate. "He was wounded, being tended by some friends, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and began searching house by house."

For the second point it is literally there in the text. As for the why we haven't been given that but unless you believe Harwin who was there is telling a pile of rubbish then Robert was definitely wounded and taking shelter in Stoney Sept.

For the Population it's about the context of statement. If Stoney Sept was larger than winter town Arya would describe Stoney Sept as the largest town she'd ever seen perhaps. Instead she deliberately limits the scope to places she's seen since leaving King's Landing.

I didn't say i was mutually exclusive. What I was saying is that gave an image of Robert which while accurate in Ned's mind was actually not very accurate of the kind of person king Robert actually was. Which influences Jon's later perceptions of him when he thinks about how Robert would act. 

I also don't quite how Stannis winning a victory that would make Robert proud somehow makes Robert into this god like awesome commander. It's just as likely that Robert didn't seemed impressed with his victory at Fiar Island and as a result wants to finally win a victory that Robert would unreservedly acknowledge him for. 5 to 1 sounds a lot worse than it actually is depending on the circumstances. Numbers are additive and you win battles by using multipliers. 

Maybe but he still needs to instill faith in himself and his lords. 

Maybe but Robert's combat record is long mostly because of how the battles particularly in the Rebellion went. After initial fighting in the vale which he was part of it moved to the Stormlands and then the Riverlands to a degree with him. Many may also have experience but most of them are probably barely competent let alone good.

Impossible to say. He might simply have caught an army with it's pants down literally to achieve it or a night raid on an enemy camp or maybe a cavalry charge against an ill disciplined and organized enemy. We can't really say. It's an example of how 5 to 1 odds might be in no way indicative of the actual combat balance of power.

1) Where did you read that Harwin was there? From what I know, he wasn’t. HeKs in his 20’s and he mentioned that Jon and Robert never crossed swords at that battle, even though Jon Connington says that they did.

2) Nothing in that quote would imply that it’s smaller than Winter Town. It just means that it’s the biggest settlement that she’s seen since Kings Landing.

3) Jon’s perception of Robert the General was almost entirely positive and his perception of Robert the King was negative. If anything, he should have had a lower opinion of Robert since the one that he meets is the fat, lecherous, sot.

4) Sure, if you want to ignore all of the context. Stannis saying that Robert should have been the Lord of Lights champion, that they could have won a victory that would even impress Robert, that Robert won battles against odds of 5 to 1, that Robert inspired far more loyalty in his soldiers than he did, with his own commanders saying that Robert would be doing better in his Northern campaign, with Jon and his subordinates telling him to be more like Robert and I can go on. It’s not just 1 thing. It’s several things. At the very least, we can get that he’s a competent commander from all of this.

5) As I said before, this is reaching. Stannis 1 a battle like that when the enemy had him outnumbered 20 to 1. He could have just pointed to his own victory if that was the case. I’ll acknowledge that it’s hard to make an accurate assessment of his abilities, what we can get from this is that the person is competent. If Robert has, 4K men under his command and he beats an army with over 20k men, even if we don’t know the details, it’s safe to assume that he was a capable General. We have no reason to believe that it was just him overrunning peasant levies. If I had to guess, he probably defeated larger armies in detail.

[Thandros]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Where did you read that Harwin was there? From what I know, he wasn’t. HeKs in his 20’s and he mentioned that Jon and Robert never crossed swords at that battle, even though Jon Connington says that they did.

 

Perhaps he wasn't but he would have been able to hear all about it from men who were. As for Connington every other accounts claims they didn't meet except his own memory. We've seen elsewhere in the books how characters memory can be quite poor and distort events seen from their own POV.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) Nothing in that quote would imply that it’s smaller than Winter Town. It just means that it’s the biggest settlement that she’s seen since Kings Landing.

 

I find your lack of ability to grasp implicit statements troubling. Arya implies that Stoney Sept is not the largest town she's seen. Only the largest since King's Landing. Implying that it is smaller than both White Harbour (which is a city not a town) and Winter Town the two other towns Arya would have seen.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Jon’s perception of Robert the General was almost entirely positive and his perception of Robert the King was negative. If anything, he should have had a lower opinion of Robert since the one that he meets is the fat, lecherous, sot.

 

Perception does not equal fact. If Stannis had engaged in the kind of aggressive forced marches Jon thinks were a good idea he'd have lost half his armies in the snow. Robert may have reached Winterfell before the Boltons only to find himself under siege with no supplies and an inferior force. Besides Jon is still thinking Ned's perception of Robert in his youth was accurate.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) Sure, if you want to ignore all of the context. Stannis saying that Robert should have been the Lord of Lights champion, that they could have won a victory that would even impress Robert, that Robert won battles against odds of 5 to 1, that Robert inspired far more loyalty in his soldiers than he did, with his own commanders saying that Robert would be doing better in his Northern campaign, with Jon and his subordinates telling him to be more like Robert and I can go on. It’s not just 1 thing. It’s several things. At the very least, we can get that he’s a competent commander from all of this.

 

Did I ever dispute that Robert was a competent commander. If Robert was an incompetent commander he'd have ended up dead in a ditch somewhere before Stoney Sept. Stannis thinks the world of Robert of course he's going to think he should be the Lord of Light's champion. You keep saying a victory which would impress Robert. Stannis says a victory Robert could be proud of. There different things. An order of magnitude different in the greatness of victory. It may not even reflect the victory but instead the defeat of the treasonous incestous Lannisters who had stolen the throne. Jon and his subordinates both believe in Robert as this peerless leader of course they're going to think Robert's way is better. Robert had more loyalty. Stannis' personal commentary of how he's the one affect by disloyalty in his difficult campaign against odds while Robert even at the worst moments always retained a reasonable path to victory.

Now the Idea that winning battles 5 to 1 somehow makes you a great commander. You must think the Archbishop Christian of Mainz and Gaius Suetonius Paulinus are masterful military commanders who could do no wrong. They won battles at worse odds than 5 to 1.

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) As I said before, this is reaching. Stannis 1 a battle like that when the enemy had him outnumbered 20 to 1. He could have just pointed to his own victory if that was the case. I’ll acknowledge that it’s hard to make an accurate assessment of his abilities, what we can get from this is that the person is competent. If Robert has, 4K men under his command and he beats an army with over 20k men, even if we don’t know the details, it’s safe to assume that he was a capable General. We have no reason to believe that it was just him overrunning peasant levies. If I had to guess, he probably defeated larger armies in detail.

Why Stannis' victory was against an army which in many ways was little better than peasant levies. The Wildings had no equipment, no training and no discipline. Even the best of them had little more than rusted stolen steel swords and maybe a few bits of stolen armour and some combat experience against an organization in many ways only a little better off than them. We know nothing about these supposed battles. The situation, the terrain, who was fighting and what time of day and even the kind of battle. If Robert was defeating an army outnumbering 5 to 1 in detail then the situation is not so much his competence but the incompetence of his enemy and his inability to respond to the enemy force.

[Lee-Sensei]

16 minutes ago, Thandros said:

Perhaps he wasn't but he would have been able to hear all about it from men who were. As for Connington every other accounts claims they didn't meet except his own memory. We've seen elsewhere in the books how characters memory can be quite poor and distort events seen from their own POV.

I find your lack of ability to grasp implicit statements troubling. Arya implies that Stoney Sept is not the largest town she's seen. Only the largest since King's Landing. Implying that it is smaller than both White Harbour (which is a city not a town) and Winter Town the two other towns Arya would have seen.

Perception does not equal fact. If Stannis had engaged in the kind of aggressive forced marches Jon thinks were a good idea he'd have lost half his armies in the snow. Robert may have reached Winterfell before the Boltons only to find himself under siege with no supplies and an inferior force. Besides Jon is still thinking Ned's perception of Robert in his youth was accurate.

Did I ever dispute that Robert was a competent commander. If Robert was an incompetent commander he'd have ended up dead in a ditch somewhere before Stoney Sept. Stannis thinks the world of Robert of course he's going to think he should be the Lord of Light's champion. You keep saying a victory which would impress Robert. Stannis says a victory Robert could be proud of. There different things. An order of magnitude different in the greatness of victory. It may not even reflect the victory but instead the defeat of the treasonous incestous Lannisters who had stolen the throne. Jon and his subordinates both believe in Robert as this peerless leader of course they're going to think Robert's way is better. Robert had more loyalty. Stannis' personal commentary of how he's the one affect by disloyalty in his difficult campaign against odds while Robert even at the worst moments always retained a reasonable path to victory.

Now the Idea that winning battles 5 to 1 somehow makes you a great commander. You must think the Archbishop Christian of Mainz and Gaius Suetonius Paulinus are masterful military commanders who could do no wrong. They won battles at worse odds than 5 to 1.

Why Stannis' victory was against an army which in many ways was little better than peasant levies. The Wildings had no equipment, no training and no discipline. Even the best of them had little more than rusted stolen steel swords and maybe a few bits of stolen armour and some combat experience against an organization in many ways only a little better off than them. We know nothing about these supposed battles. The situation, the terrain, who was fighting and what time of day and even the kind of battle. If Robert was defeating an army outnumbering 5 to 1 in detail then the situation is not so much his competence but the incompetence of his enemy and his inability to respond to the enemy force.

1) Do we have any reason to believe that the person that was actually there is wrong about what happened at that battle?

2) Not really. You’re reading into something that isn’t there. All that means is that Stoney Sept was the biggest settlement that she’d seen since Kings Landing.

3) You keep on acting like theirs this perception of Robert that’s not based in reality whenever it’s pointed out that he’s respected as a military leader, but there isn’t much evidence of that. Jon had a low opinion of King Robert, but has high respect for Robert the general, probably because Ned told him about Robert during the wars. We have no reason to believe that so many different people are lying about his capabilities.

4) Yes. You did, actually.

Maybe but he blew his one army virtually to dust before the battle of the bells. He's also shown dubious strategic judgement at times like moving so far west which resulted in the battle of ashford where he seems to have been caught off guard by the Tyrells suggesting his scouting was horrible. A great warrior and Charismatic leader maybe but no great general. HE seems to have relied on his allies to actually win the battles for him.

5) Do we have any evidence that he was facing vastly inferior troops in those battles and have you changed your position? Originally you said that he never won battles at odds worse than 5 to 1.

6) That’s basically what you’re saying Robert did, right. He was outnumbered over 5 to 1 and beat troops of vastly inferior quality, so the achievement isn’t as great as it sounds? If that was the case, he could have just mentioned his victory over the Wildlings like he did later with Theon. And defeating armies in detail, isn’t just a mark of incompetence by their enemies.

[Thandros]

10 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Do we have any reason to believe that the person that was actually there is wrong about what happened at that battle?

 

It wouldn't be the first time in the books for someone present to misremember events.

10 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) Not really. You’re reading into something that isn’t there. All that means is that Stoney Sept was the biggest settlement that she’d seen since Kings Landing.

 

So are you going to argue that my guesses for the population of Stoney Sept are wrong then. That my inferences are garbage and that Stoney sept actually has a population of 80,000 men hiding behind it's walls.

12 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) You keep on acting like theirs this perception of Robert that’s not based in reality whenever it’s pointed out that he’s respected as a military leader, but there isn’t much evidence of that. Jon had a low opinion of King Robert, but has high respect for Robert the general, probably because Ned told him about Robert during the wars. We have no reason to believe that so many different people are lying about his capabilities.

 

Your perception that Jon's views are accurate because Ned told him accurate stories about Robert. Secondly Jon when he first thinks about Robert in his first chapter he doesn't refer to him as a great general but as a fierce warrior. Very different things. It doesn't mean anyone is lying but no one tells an objective truth.

29 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) Yes. You did, actually.

Maybe but he blew his one army virtually to dust before the battle of the bells. He's also shown dubious strategic judgement at times like moving so far west which resulted in the battle of ashford where he seems to have been caught off guard by the Tyrells suggesting his scouting was horrible. A great warrior and Charismatic leader maybe but no great general. HE seems to have relied on his allies to actually win the battles for him.

Learn definitions. Competent and great are very different words. Also name me one decent general who hasn't made at least one massive stuff up.

36 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) Do we have any evidence that he was facing vastly inferior troops in those battles and have you changed your position? Originally you said that he never won battles at odds worse than 5 to 1.

6) That’s basically what you’re saying Robert did, right. He was outnumbered over 5 to 1 and beat troops of vastly inferior quality, so the achievement isn’t as great as it sounds? If that was the case, he could have just mentioned his victory over the Wildlings like he did later with Theon. And defeating armies in detail, isn’t just a mark of incompetence by their enemies.

As facts get reassessed our positions change. Someone who refuses to change as circumstances do is a hopeless die hard.

It would depend on the circumstances which you can't provide. You can keep arguing That Robert Baratheon is some almighty general who could defeat any enemy but unless you can get more details to support such an argument you're not going to get anywhere trying to make such an argument.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Thandros said:

It wouldn't be the first time in the books for someone present to misremember events.

So are you going to argue that my guesses for the population of Stoney Sept are wrong then. That my inferences are garbage and that Stoney sept actually has a population of 80,000 men hiding behind it's walls.

Your perception that Jon's views are accurate because Ned told him accurate stories about Robert. Secondly Jon when he first thinks about Robert in his first chapter he doesn't refer to him as a great general but as a fierce warrior. Very different things. It doesn't mean anyone is lying but no one tells an objective truth.

Learn definitions. Competent and great are very different words. Also name me one decent general who hasn't made at least one massive stuff up.

As facts get reassessed our positions change. Someone who refuses to change as circumstances do is a hopeless die hard.

It would depend on the circumstances which you can't provide. You can keep arguing That Robert Baratheon is some almighty general who could defeat any enemy but unless you can get more details to support such an argument you're not going to get anywhere trying to make such an argument.

1) Does that mean that you don’t have reason to believe that he’s misremembering the battle?

2) I never said that it was garbage. I said that the passage that you provided doesn’t say what you think it does. 80k is a lot. It’s hard to speculate.

3) Again, this isn’t just Jon. It’s a variety of people.

4) Don’t be so disingenuous. What you were saying is pretty clear. He got his army destroyed at Ashford (he didn’t), he’s a poor strategist (is he?), his scouting was horrible (very little evidence of this), he never won battles at odds worse than 5 to 1 (he did) and he relied on his allies to win his battles for him (which isn’t supported by the text, whith the possible exception of the Battle of the Bells).

5) Nice straw man, kid. I never said that he can beat anyone. I said that he won most of his battles and he did. Out of curiosity, why do you think George decided to write in that Robert won battles at odds worse than 5 to 1 in a book full of people praising him for his abilities as a commander?

[Thandros]

47 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Does that mean that you don’t have reason to believe that he’s misremembering the battle?

 

His account of the battle is somewhat suspect. He thinks that they fought on the steps of the Sept. While Robert emerged from the Peach at the market square some distance away. At same time Robert and Connington are both mentioned to be fighting and killing others at the same time before Connington withdrew from the city.

Equally Connington is dreaming of the battle routinely with events clearly distorted. His constant thinking on the battle may have distorted exactly what happened.

50 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) I never said that it was garbage. I said that the passage that you provided doesn’t say what you think it does. 80k is a lot. It’s hard to speculate.

 

I don't even think the population matters. It to prove a point that Robert was by himself in the city and his army if he still had one was elsewhere. Both Harwin and Connington agree Robert was alone in Stoney Sept before the battle.

51 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Again, this isn’t just Jon. It’s a variety of people.

 

You've mentioned Richard Horpe who you claim was close to Robert because he was a candidate for the Kingsguard. There is nothing to suggest that he was particularly close and Stannis agrees with Cersei that making him a kingsguard would be a mistake. All you really need to be a Kingsguard is to be a good fighter and loyal and even they begin falling by the wayside under Robert and later Joffrey and Tommen.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) Don’t be so disingenuous. What you were saying is pretty clear. He got his army destroyed at Ashford (he didn’t), he’s a poor strategist (is he?), his scouting was horrible (very little evidence of this), he never won battles at odds worse than 5 to 1 (he did) and he relied on his allies to win his battles for him (which isn’t supported by the text, whith the possible exception of the Battle of the Bells).

 

Hmm No I said he didn't have much an army by Stoney Sept which he didn't. If he did have one still it was else where. I also stated he may have taken significant losses at Ashford. Clearly moving west to Ashford was a strategic mistake and Stannis thinks of it as one. He then clearly decided his option was the make his way north across the Reach. Not a bad decision but it clearly cost his army. As to his scouting given he apparent difference in strength between his forces and the Tyrell army either his scouts didn't spot them (ergo his scouting was poor), his scouts were incompetent (which says move for Tarly than Robert) or Tarly cut through his scouts so quickly he didn't have a chance to respond. The only reliable source for the 5 to 1 victory is Stannis. A character who probably wouldn't tell a lie about Robert (but does tell lies at time). One of your explanations that is was a defeat in detail would result in several battles on much more favourable terms rather than any battles at 5 to 1 odds. He definitely owed his victory to ned at the Battle of the Bells. He won at Summerhall by being able to get into an optimal position in time to defeat the enemy forces separately. The result of good intelligence more than good generalship. At the trident he won the battle by killing Rhaegar but elsewhere others would have to have been actually leading the rebel armies to actually achieve victory.

Robert is a frontline general who leads form the front charging in and having his men follow him. It's definitely what he did on the trident and it's implied he did something similar at Summerhall.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) Nice straw man, kid. I never said that he can beat anyone. I said that he won most of his battles and he did. Out of curiosity, why do you think George decided to write in that Robert won battles at odds worse than 5 to 1 in a book full of people praising him for his abilities as a commander?

Well the obvious Doylist explanation for this is that Robert and his reputation are a big impact on Stannis and his character arc. Stannis is living in Robert's shadow his entire life. His efforts to deal with the Legacy of Robert both politically and personally are a huge section of his arc as well as his efforts to break out from him.

[Daeron the Daring]

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Does that mean that you don’t have reason to believe that he’s misremembering the battle?

2) I never said that it was garbage. I said that the passage that you provided doesn’t say what you think it does. 80k is a lot. It’s hard to speculate.

3) Again, this isn’t just Jon. It’s a variety of people.

4) Don’t be so disingenuous. What you were saying is pretty clear. He got his army destroyed at Ashford (he didn’t), he’s a poor strategist (is he?), his scouting was horrible (very little evidence of this), he never won battles at odds worse than 5 to 1 (he did) and he relied on his allies to win his battles for him (which isn’t supported by the text, whith the possible exception of the Battle of the Bells).

5) Nice straw man, kid. I never said that he can beat anyone. I said that he won most of his battles and he did. Out of curiosity, why do you think George decided to write in that Robert won battles at odds worse than 5 to 1 in a book full of people praising him for his abilities as a commander?

Dude, there's no point of throwing back the dead fish into the lake.

[S. D]

9 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

Dude, there's no point of throwing back the dead fish into the lake.

What does this mean I'm not familiar with this saying 

[Daeron the Daring]

15 minutes ago, S. D said:

What does this mean I'm not familiar with this saying 

I've just tried to make clear for @Lee-Sensei that his arguments are nothing more than nonsense, and he should stop judging a character by how much he does like it. Robert wasn't a mastermind, just an average commander (which was obviously more than enough for him to claim the Throne).