Ned treated Jon really badly

[broken one]

Rhaegar's or Ned's - Jon is still a bastard

[TedBear]

Poor Jon who was raised in a castle and educated like any of the legitimate brothers.

 

 

[Arthur Peres]

28 minutes ago, Thandros said:

That's just not true. The only time Robert was likely significantly outnumbered was at Ashford where he was smashed to bits by the Tyrell vanguard. Everywhere else he either defeated a possibly numerically superior force in detail (Summerhall) or was only slightly outnumbered (The Trident) or might have had superior numbers once his reinforcements arrived and the fighting only seriously began after they did (The Bells). He was probably never outnumbered 5 to 1 and even if he ever was he never won a battle at those odds.

 

Not according to Stannis.

“Moat Cailin will fall before you ever reach the Dreadfort. Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay’s, they will have you outnumbered five to one.”

“My brother won battles at worse odds.”

[Thandros]

5 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not according to Stannis.

“Moat Cailin will fall before you ever reach the Dreadfort. Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay’s, they will have you outnumbered five to one.”

“My brother won battles at worse odds.”

Yes he does but if he did we know nothing of them and they may even not have been that significant. We know nothing of the composition of the forces in such battles or their equipment. 100 knights in plate on horseback could easily crush a thousand poorly armed peasants. Stannis also mentions that in favour of a plan he abandons as soon as a militarily better option is suggested. He knows whatever battles Robert won at those odds were nothing to attempt to replicate.

[Arthur Peres]

1 minute ago, Thandros said:

Yes he does but if he did we know nothing of them and they may even not have been that significant. We know nothing of the composition of the forces in such battles or their equipment. 100 knights in plate on horseback could easily crush a thousand poorly armed peasants. Stannis also mentions that in favour of a plan he abandons as soon as a militarily better option is suggested. He knows whatever battles Robert won at those odds were nothing to attempt to replicate.

still impressive, and Robert military record is the best in the series bar none.

[Thandros]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

still impressive, and Robert military record is the best in the series bar none.

Maybe but he blew his one army virtually to dust before the battle of the bells. He's also shown dubious strategic judgement at times like moving so far west which resulted in the battle of ashford where he seems to have been caught off guard by the Tyrells suggesting his scouting was horrible. A great warrior and Charismatic leader maybe but no great general. HE seems to have relied on his allies to actually win the battles for him.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

44 minutes ago, TedBear said:

Poor Jon who was raised in a castle and educated like any of the legitimate brothers.

By that logic Ilyrio was the kindest person ever to Viserys and Dany

[Arthur Peres]

15 minutes ago, Thandros said:

Maybe but he blew his one army virtually to dust before the battle of the bells. He's also shown dubious strategic judgement at times like moving so far west which resulted in the battle of ashford where he seems to have been caught off guard by the Tyrells suggesting his scouting was horrible. A great warrior and Charismatic leader maybe but no great general. HE seems to have relied on his allies to actually win the battles for him.

You make sound like Ashford was great defeat. Tyrion calls it incoclusive, and he didn't melt his army away, he retreated in good order. The Stormlands do not have the man power of the North or the Vale, and to make thins worse several vassals of him sided with the Targeryans, it not surprising that his army was relative small under such circustances.

His Castle was under siege but was not taken, we do not know if Ashford was a surprise attack, most likely not, since he retreated  just fine.

[Arthur Peres]

3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

By that logic Ilyrio was the kindest person ever to Viserys and Dany

Well he used then, the same way you want Ned to use Jon...

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Arthur Peres said:

Well he used then, the same way you want Ned to use Jon...

Well, the biggest thing Ned and Illyrio have in common are the lies, keeping their true intent hidden

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- First off he pisses a bit on his sisters memory by going along with the lie that it was kidnapping, when it so obviously wasn't (might have been something wrong there after Brandon's death, but no way it was kidnapping). Nice honor you got there Ned.

We have no idea what happened.  And if she did go off with Rhaegar willingly, she is going to come across as a bit of a wanton, which is even worse than being kidnapped.  Best to leave it as a kidnapping.

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Then he takes the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and makes him a bastard. Sure he's treated better then most bastards, but he's still looked down upon. Ned might have promised to keep him safe, but not to keep him happy or respected.

He may or may not have been Rhaegar's heir.  Even so, Ned is on Robert's side, not Rhaegar's.  To Ned, the Targaryens are no longer rightful rulers of Westeros. He can't make him true-born for obvious reasons.  So making him a bastard is the safest bet.  And as a bastard, he was treated quite well at Winterfell in general.  Catelyn being the exception, and she merely ignored him.

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Furthermore, he refuses to tell the boy the truth, letting him suffer wondering who his mom was. Again nice honor you got there Ned.

- He also refuses to tell his wife the truth, instead letting her hate the boy, for no reason other then his lies.

Way too dangerous.  News gets out, Jon becomes a de facto Targaryen claimant and gets a target on his back.  Plus, it causes trouble with Robert.

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- He continues to support a fat oaf of a King, who can't be bothered to rule, who claims he loved his sister but has made whoring a sport and who revels at dead children and tries to kill some more.

- All the while he has the rightful King of Westeros by his side and keeps on that he's a bastard. Now is he protecting Jon, or is he protecting the fat leech, and the second coming of Aerys the second in the form of his heir.

He has no idea what kind of person Robert is now.  To all appearances, the land is well ruled (thank you, Jon Arryn) so Ned is essentially clueless about Robert, and Joffrey for that matter.  If he had known what sort of person Joffrey was, he would never had betrothed him to Sansa. 

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Even more then that, when he learns the truth, he keeps on about how Stannis is the rightful King... Is he really Ned?

Ned fought against the Targaryens.  As far as Ned is concerned, the Targaryens are no longer the rightful rulers.

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

But the worst part is the Watch. Ned actively encourages Jon to join the Nights Watch.

- He purposefully withholds the truth of how much of a shithole the Watch is, knowing that is Jon knew he wouldn't in a million years join.

- He is perfectly content to let the child of his sister and the rightful King of Westeros to rot at the Wall, miserable and childless.

Really honorable of him, what can I say

Ned did not encourage Jon to join the Watch.  Jon did that on his own.  In fact, I think Ned wasn't too thrilled with it.  And in fact, the night's watch solved the problem of what to do with him.  Ned didn't want to take him to KL, and he couldn't stay at Winterfell. 

And for a highborn like Jon, the NW isn't too bad.  Remember, Jon was immediately chosen as Mormont's steward, with the intent of grooming him for a leadership position. 

Yes, he is content to let Jon join the Watch.  It's what Jon wants, and as a volunteer, he is not obliged to join (although once he takes the oath, he has to stay).  And remember, to Ned, Jon is not the rightful king of Westeros.  The Targaryens were deposed, and are no longer rightful rulers.

Ned took Jon in, and raised him as his own, in a castle, with a very comfortable life.  He is well-educated, and trained at swordfighting and the like.  He is better off than 99% of Westeros.  I'd say Ned was quite honorable towards him. 

[Lord Lannister]

Well most of the OP is reaching a lot. But it is a fair point that Ned didn't warn Jon that he was joining a band of criminal conscripts before we went. Though considering some of the naïveté Ned showed in King's Landing it may not be impossible he didn't know.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- First off he pisses a bit on his sisters memory by going along with the lie that it was kidnapping, when it so obviously wasn't (might have been something wrong there after Brandon's death, but no way it was kidnapping). Nice honor you got there Ned.

Ned is following the party line. Ned even lied about how his father died. He told his children that his father was beheaded when we know that he was burned alive. Telling anyone that Lyanna was willingly with Rhaegar opens the door to questions Ned cannot answer or doesn't want to answer. 

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- Then he takes the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and makes him a bastard. Sure he's treated better then most bastards, but he's still looked down upon. Ned might have promised to keep him safe, but not to keep him happy or respected.

We don't know what Ned promised Lyanna beyond protecting Jon.

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- Furthermore, he refuses to tell the boy the truth, letting him suffer wondering who his mom was. Again nice honor you got there Ned.

He can't. And he probably uses the same logic that Doran used with Arianne to keep her betrothal to Viserys a secret. Jon was very close to Robb. If he tells Robb and Robb tells someone else, then it's not a secret anymore.

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- He also refuses to tell his wife the truth, instead letting her hate the boy, for no reason other then his lies.

Some secrets are too dangerous to share even with the people you love and trust. Ned and Catelyn did not know each other. If he thought that their marriage would grow into one of love rather than one of mere convenience and duty, then who knows. Plus what would it achieve to tell her anything about Jon 5 or 6 years later, other than her maybe getting pissed because Ned put the family in a terrible situation and then her having to keep a secret she may not even want any part of. Maybe it's great that Catelyn is still around to find out the truth about Jon because we might get her take on it. 

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- He continues to support a fat oaf of a King, who can't be bothered to rule, who claims he loved his sister but has made whoring a sport and who revels at dead children and tries to kill some more.

Ned is pretty disillusioned with Robert starting with what happened with Lady and the girls and throughout his arc in King's Landing. 

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- All the while he has the rightful King of Westeros by his side and keeps on that he's a bastard. Now is he protecting Jon, or is he protecting the fat leech, and the second coming of Aerys the second in the form of his heir.

It's Jon he's protecting and his family by the same token. What do you think happens if Jon is revealed to be Rhaegar's son by Lyanna and that he has been protected by House Stark for the past fourteen years? Do you think Robert will pat Ned on the back and laugh it off or do you think he'll call him a traitor and attaint his family?

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- Even more then that, when he learns the truth, he keeps on about how Stannis is the rightful King... Is he really Ned?

House Targaryen lost the Iron Throne by right of conquest. House Baratheon is in charge now and Stannis is Robert's rightful heir seeing as Cersei's children are not his. What do you think happens if Ned decides to out Jon's secret? War? 

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- But the worst part is the Watch. Ned actively encourages Jon to join the Nights Watch.

 

We never saw the conversation between Ned and Jon where he is allegedly encouraging Jon to join the NW. The NW was Jon's idea. Ned agreeing to allow Jon go to the NW is not him actively encouraging Jon to go.

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- He purposefully withholds the truth of how much of a shithole the Watch is, knowing that is Jon knew he wouldn't in a million years join.

Only thing I agree with in your entire post. Ned and Benjen should have taken the time to explain to Jon what the NW was now.

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- He is perfectly content to let the child of his sister and the rightful King of Westeros to rot at the Wall, miserable and childless.

This is not true either. Ned is pretty torn up about Jon while he's imprisoned.

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of of shame, and sorrow too deep for words. If he could only see the boy again sit and talk with him. 

And after Ned dies, the three-eyed crow leads Bran down to the crypts, where Bran speaks to his father. He tells Maester Luwin that his father was sad and it was something to do with Jon. The man is tormented even in death over this secret he had to keep.

So no, Ned is not perfectly content sending Jon to freeze his balls off. He can't take him to KL because there are people there who knew the Targaryens well and might see something in him and put two and two together. The NW was just the best solution in that moment. 

[Morte]

I'm with @Arthur Peres concerning the question whether Jon is legitimate, and I think @Thandros summed the situation up quiet well from Ned's perspective.

I still however can't understand why Ned didn't tell Cat, and I think he did mess up the lives of both Jon and Cat that way. Sure, in the beginning it makes sense, because he did not know her and might have thought her a gossiping one.

But after a few years he should have known better to assume her telling anyone - because I think she wouldn't have. So he should have told Cat the truth, even if he would choose to never tell Jon (which I understand why he wouldn't do this), it would have made both lives a lot happier.

[Daeron the Daring]

Just one simple question.

Jon's story is the story of The Hidden Prince.

So GRRM makes him a secret identity that puts him in no different case? 

Making Jon a hidden bastard prince makes no sense, but making him the secret heir, now that's what makes sense, doesn't it? If he has no birthright, then making him Rhaegar's son is just a meh.

Just think about it, guys.

[Thandros]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

You make sound like Ashford was great defeat. Tyrion calls it incoclusive, and he didn't melt his army away, he retreated in good order. The Stormlands do not have the man power of the North or the Vale, and to make thins worse several vassals of him sided with the Targeryans, it not surprising that his army was relative small under such circustances.

His Castle was under siege but was not taken, we do not know if Ashford was a surprise attack, most likely not, since he retreated  just fine.

No he calls it indecisive not inconclusive. They mean different things. THe failure the stop Robert escaping made the battle indecisive it failed to stop him rallying more men to the Rebel cause and ensured the Rebels had a singular leader to untie behind. Not that his army had much to it afterward. Harwin implies that Robert was virtually alone at Stoney Sept when Connington arrived. While some of his vassals where encouraged to rebel he convinced them to back him after Summerhall.

With Ashford being a surprise Robert at the very least showed poor judgement in facing them if he knew they were there. Either his scouts were incompetent and didn't spot the Tyrell army which would have been large or Robert either was misled by poor scout reports or was over confident of his own forces and choose to engage them. All suggest a commander who while an excellent warrior and leader is not so capable at the more strategic aspects of war.

[TedBear]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

By that logic Ilyrio was the kindest person ever to Viserys and Dany

Illyrio had outside interests in this, besides that he wanted to have sex with Dany which is nothing but disgusting, it is an attitude of self-interest and scary. Ned treated Jon like a son, he protected him until the end of his life keeping this secret, if Jon knew of its origin, all this mystery would not exist, at some point Ned could tell him, but what Ned hid kept Jon for longer without biting the clay. He had a childhood being loved by Ned and his brothers, in a safe place, receiving education and training like any member of an important family, he would not need to claim his right as a son of Rhaegar. Lyanna's promise was probably just for Ned to protect her son. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well most of the OP is reaching a lot. But it is a fair point that Ned didn't warn Jon that he was joining a band of criminal conscripts before we went. Though considering some of the naïveté Ned showed in King's Landing it may not be impossible he didn't know.

I think Ned saw the Night's Watch as an ideal as opposed to what it currently was.  Ned knew the Night's Watch was in trouble and had dwindling numbers, and Ned believed the Night's Watch was an honorable calling.  So I think he saw Jon's joining the NIght's Watch as a way to help improve the Night's Watch.

Now having said that, if Ned did indeed plan on telling Jon his true parentage and if that true parentage included the fact that Jon was legitimate, then Ned really screwed Jon over by letting him join the Night's Watch before Ned smartened Jon up to his true heritage.

Especially since one of the justifications for Jon joining the NIght's Watch was the idea that a bastard could rise further in the Night's Watch then he could outside the Night's Watch.

It makes me think that Ned did not believe Jon to be legitimate no matter who his parents were.  But, having said that,  it should be noted that while Ned was in the black cells and when he thought of Jon, it made him feel both shame and sorrow.  So perhaps the shame came from Ned allowing Jon to join the Night's Watch while ignorant of his true parentage.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

31 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

Making Jon a hidden bastard prince makes no sense, but making him the secret heir, now that's what makes sense, doesn't it? If he has no birthright, then making him Rhaegar's son is just a meh.

Just think about it, guys.

Not necessarily. There could be 2 explanations for R+L=J being a thing

1. Some magic blood voodoo shit, in which case he could very well be a bastard

2. Him getting the IT, in which case it's imperative for him to be legit

I tend to think it's both and that Rhaegar dabbled in some polygamy

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

Jon is Ned’s... Though you do make some valid points about Ned not being the worlds best father. I think the biggest issue I have is his lack of transparency about the Wall. 

I think Ned’s hands were tied and had to act as if Jon was his bastard, Publicly married Cat had sired Robb on her. Jon had to carry the bastard tag due to his alliance with the Tully’s.

Maybe he felt Jon would be safe because Benjen was there? And because he’s a Stark so whomever the lord of Winterfell would be, they would help the NW even more if a Stark was among the ranks? Ned should have either sent Jon to apprentice with one of the free companies or had him be a ward for a northern house like the Glover’s or someone. 

Thats my only issue with Ned, but he had to stay his course or else the story would be entirely different.