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Alyn Oakenfist

Ned treated Jon really badly

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30 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

I've just tried to make clear for @Lee-Sensei that his arguments are nothing more than nonsense, and he should stop judging a character by how much he does like it. Robert wasn't a mastermind, just an average commander (which was obviously more than enough for him to claim the Throne).

Lol right. Calling another user on a forum "kid". Cringe....

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41 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

I've just tried to make clear for @Lee-Sensei that his arguments are nothing more than nonsense, and he should stop judging a character by how much he does like it. Robert wasn't a mastermind, just an average commander (which was obviously more than enough for him to claim the Throne).

I can see that from all of your well thought out arguments.

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17 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I can see that from all of your well thought out arguments.

Then it was worth it.

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5 hours ago, Thandros said:

His account of the battle is somewhat suspect. He thinks that they fought on the steps of the Sept. While Robert emerged from the Peach at the market square some distance away. At same time Robert and Connington are both mentioned to be fighting and killing others at the same time before Connington withdrew from the city.

Equally Connington is dreaming of the battle routinely with events clearly distorted. His constant thinking on the battle may have distorted exactly what happened.

I don't even think the population matters. It to prove a point that Robert was by himself in the city and his army if he still had one was elsewhere. Both Harwin and Connington agree Robert was alone in Stoney Sept before the battle.

You've mentioned Richard Horpe who you claim was close to Robert because he was a candidate for the Kingsguard. There is nothing to suggest that he was particularly close and Stannis agrees with Cersei that making him a kingsguard would be a mistake. All you really need to be a Kingsguard is to be a good fighter and loyal and even they begin falling by the wayside under Robert and later Joffrey and Tommen.

Hmm No I said he didn't have much an army by Stoney Sept which he didn't. If he did have one still it was else where. I also stated he may have taken significant losses at Ashford. Clearly moving west to Ashford was a strategic mistake and Stannis thinks of it as one. He then clearly decided his option was the make his way north across the Reach. Not a bad decision but it clearly cost his army. As to his scouting given he apparent difference in strength between his forces and the Tyrell army either his scouts didn't spot them (ergo his scouting was poor), his scouts were incompetent (which says move for Tarly than Robert) or Tarly cut through his scouts so quickly he didn't have a chance to respond. The only reliable source for the 5 to 1 victory is Stannis. A character who probably wouldn't tell a lie about Robert (but does tell lies at time). One of your explanations that is was a defeat in detail would result in several battles on much more favourable terms rather than any battles at 5 to 1 odds. He definitely owed his victory to ned at the Battle of the Bells. He won at Summerhall by being able to get into an optimal position in time to defeat the enemy forces separately. The result of good intelligence more than good generalship. At the trident he won the battle by killing Rhaegar but elsewhere others would have to have been actually leading the rebel armies to actually achieve victory.

Robert is a frontline general who leads form the front charging in and having his men follow him. It's definitely what he did on the trident and it's implied he did something similar at Summerhall.

Well the obvious Doylist explanation for this is that Robert and his reputation are a big impact on Stannis and his character arc. Stannis is living in Robert's shadow his entire life. His efforts to deal with the Legacy of Robert both politically and personally are a huge section of his arc as well as his efforts to break out from him.

I don’t see why. They killed other people before they met in combat, but there’s no way to prove this either way. Maybe we’ll hear more about it if TWOW comes out.

It’s probably an exaggeration, but honestly... I can’t prove that. What we can be fairly certain about, is that Ashford army wasn’t destroyed at Ashford. That was an indecisive victory for the Reach and his only known loss.

I’m not talking about picking Kingsguard. I’m talking about someone sitting on Stannis’ war council and advising him to be more like Robert.

Did Stannis say that it was a strategic mistake or are you thinking of the show? If Robb had fought a battle that ended up destroying his army and leaving him alone, would that be called indecisive? Do people call Stannis’ defeat at the Blackwater indecisive? Yes. He’s still active and they acknowledge that’s a problem, but they do call it a crushing defeat. If Robert lost his army to Randyll Tarly at Ashford, they would have said as much. You’re doing it again here. Gathering intelligence about your enemies movements and using that intelligence to outmaneuver your enemy is the mark of good generalship. Robb lead from the front. So did Ned, Randyll Tarly, Jaime Lannister and many others. Leading from the front is popular. As it were, Ned remembers Robert shouting commands on the Trident.

“Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now.”

Youll probably say that’s just Robert being a charismatic and powerful rallying figure (and being able to maintain high morale in your soldiers is another mark of good generalship), but Ned remembers Robert being in command at the Trident. The only battle that his allies won for him was the Battle of the Bells and he still lead a charge from behind enemy lines.

And what’s the Watsonian explanation?

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Robert was bent on killing Targaryens, and Lyanna, when she approaching death, might as well very aware of this. When Bob becomes fat and alcoholic he still pursues Rhaegar children through the Free Cities. I don't think he would have spared Jon being the son of his most hated enemy, Rhaegar. Even though he was also the son of Lyanna, the woman he loved dearly.

 Ned was protecting Jon and keeping his sister's promise at the same time. 

It is one of the first things presented in the saga and I think the dilemma is well planted. Ned, a POV, has made a promise to protect (and also he took care of) Jon, a Targaryen bastard, a half-member of a former enemy family that bled the Kingdoms in war, all the while keeping this a secret to his best friend, Robert Baratheon.

Could have he told Catelyn? Not really, he promised his oath earlier, when they were almost strangers to each others. He took this promise to his death. At worst, he's the honorable fool a lot of people in the book say he is.

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12 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Maybe but he blew his one army virtually to dust before the battle of the bells. He's also shown dubious strategic judgement at times like moving so far west which resulted in the battle of ashford where he seems to have been caught off guard by the Tyrells suggesting his scouting was horrible. A great warrior and Charismatic leader maybe but no great general. HE seems to have relied on his allies to actually win the battles for him.

 

Show me where in the books is said that Robert was caught by surprise at Ashford.

Everyone praises Robert's military might, his taste for war, his strenght, leadership, everything about him is praised, he is onle defeated once, in a inconclusive affair, and the guy that beat him is now considered the best in the realm. He has two wars into his belt, but somehow you are fighting the books...

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17 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Show me where in the books is said that Robert was caught by surprise at Ashford.

Everyone praises Robert's military might, his taste for war, his strenght, leadership, everything about him is praised, he is onle defeated once, in a inconclusive affair, and the guy that beat him is now considered the best in the realm. He has two wars into his belt, but somehow you are fighting the books...

And not to mention that the only fight he won being outmatched was at The Trident (and the royal army wasn't as trained as the rebel one, and they only break when Rhaegar died, not because of that "so much command skill of Robert Baratheon") In the other cases, Robert's army always heavily outnumbered the enemy, except the one at Gulltown, of which we know nothing, but I doubt that it was that 5 to 1 battle, because you regularly siege with several times more men than the number of defenders.

So then, where could that actually happen? When Balon Greyjoy rebelled? So an entire kingdom could not outnumber the Iron Islands? And they did take Pike with five times less people?Alright then.

I wonder what Stannis was talking about. Maybe he tought he was dreaming.

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13 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

And not to mention that the only fight he won being outmatched was at The Trident (and the royal army wasn't as trained as the rebel one, and they only break when Rhaegar died, not because of that "so much command skill of Robert Baratheon") In the other cases, Robert's army always heavily outnumbered the enemy, except the one at Gulltown, of which we know nothing, but I doubt that it was that 5 to 1 battle, because you regularly siege with several times more men than the number of defenders.

 

Didn't knew he was outnumberd five to one at the Trident...

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12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Didn't knew he was outnumberd five to one at the Trident...

This better be a joke. :D

 

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2 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

This better be a joke. :D

 

I'm not the one fighting the books friend, if Robert was outnumbered 5 to 1 and "the only fight he won being outmatched was at The Trident" either you're wrong or...

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10 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

I'm not the one fighting the books friend, if Robert was outnumbered 5 to 1 and "the only fight he won being outmatched was at The Trident" either you're wrong or...

The Trident is the only fight he won outnumbered, and we know the royal army was only a little bigger. This is written down too.

Maybe there is another battle we don't know about, or Stannis was trying to fool Jon. Maybe it was a joke from Stannis (now that's not likely).

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On 10/19/2020 at 9:27 AM, R2D said:

Even Gregor would be able to figure that out.

You guys remember The Goonies? "Heeeey, you guuuys!" That's how I envision Gregor Clegane. A much larger, more violent version of Sloth from The Goonies.

Edited by Travis
punctuation

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47 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

Maybe there is another battle we don't know about, or Stannis was trying to fool Jon. Maybe it was a joke from Stannis (now that's not likely).

Stannis has no reason to lie or fool Jon, Robert beat armies 5 times the size of his, we don't know wich battle, and we don't really need to know, the man is constatly praised as a military commander and has more feats than any other general in the books, this is just a throw away line to give us. There were more battles in RR than the few named that we know, for instance the only loyalist victory named is Ashford, but GRRM talks about victories, like in plural, he also talk about battles in the Dornish marches that we do not know about. 

The Targaryens had lost a number of battles (and had also won some), but they weren't really losing the war until the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. And then it was lost. And sieges were a crucial part of medieval warfare. Storm's End was not geographically strategic, but it was the base of Robert's power, as important to House Baratheon as Winterfell was to the Starks. If it had fallen, Robert would have lost his home and his lands... and two of his brothers would have been hostages in enemy hands. All important chips. Also the fall of Storm's End might have convinced many of the storm lords supporting him that the time had come to bend the knee. So the castle was hardly unimportant.

Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested. I haven't gone into the whole history of the fighting, but there was a good deal more to it than just two armies meeting on the Trident. There were a number of earlier battles, sieges, escapes, ambushes, duels, and forays, and fighting in places as farflung as the Vale and the Dornish Marches.

 

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2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Show me where in the books is said that Robert was caught by surprise at Ashford.

Everyone praises Robert's military might, his taste for war, his strenght, leadership, everything about him is praised, he is onle defeated once, in a inconclusive affair, and the guy that beat him is now considered the best in the realm. He has two wars into his belt, but somehow you are fighting the books...

I agree with you. I was quoting someone else.

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7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Stannis has no reason to lie or fool Jon, Robert beat armies 5 times the size of his, we don't know wich battle, and we don't really need to know, the man is constatly praised as a military commander and has more feats than any other general in the books, this is just a throw away line to give us. There were more battles in RR than the few named that we know, for instance the only loyalist victory named is Ashford, but GRRM talks about victories, like in plural, he also talk about battles in the Dornish marches that we do not know about. 

The Targaryens had lost a number of battles (and had also won some), but they weren't really losing the war until the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. And then it was lost. And sieges were a crucial part of medieval warfare. Storm's End was not geographically strategic, but it was the base of Robert's power, as important to House Baratheon as Winterfell was to the Starks. If it had fallen, Robert would have lost his home and his lands... and two of his brothers would have been hostages in enemy hands. All important chips. Also the fall of Storm's End might have convinced many of the storm lords supporting him that the time had come to bend the knee. So the castle was hardly unimportant.

Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested. I haven't gone into the whole history of the fighting, but there was a good deal more to it than just two armies meeting on the Trident. There were a number of earlier battles, sieges, escapes, ambushes, duels, and forays, and fighting in places as farflung as the Vale and the Dornish Marches.

 

You don't have to teach me about the battles fougth during the Rebellion. It's also not that hard to figure out that there were other fights too, not mentioned.

But the thing is, Roberts journey is written down entirely. 

So may I ask you when could that being 5 to 1 outnumbered battle happened? And if he won a battle like this, how it ain't worth mentioning?

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18 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I don’t see why. They killed other people before they met in combat, but there’s no way to prove this either way. Maybe we’ll hear more about it if TWOW comes out.

It’s probably an exaggeration, but honestly... I can’t prove that. What we can be fairly certain about, is that Ashford army wasn’t destroyed at Ashford. That was an indecisive victory for the Reach and his only known loss.

I’m not talking about picking Kingsguard. I’m talking about someone sitting on Stannis’ war council and advising him to be more like Robert.

Did Stannis say that it was a strategic mistake or are you thinking of the show? If Robb had fought a battle that ended up destroying his army and leaving him alone, would that be called indecisive? Do people call Stannis’ defeat at the Blackwater indecisive? Yes. He’s still active and they acknowledge that’s a problem, but they do call it a crushing defeat. If Robert lost his army to Randyll Tarly at Ashford, they would have said as much. You’re doing it again here. Gathering intelligence about your enemies movements and using that intelligence to outmaneuver your enemy is the mark of good generalship. Robb lead from the front. So did Ned, Randyll Tarly, Jaime Lannister and many others. Leading from the front is popular. As it were, Ned remembers Robert shouting commands on the Trident.

“Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now.”

Youll probably say that’s just Robert being a charismatic and powerful rallying figure (and being able to maintain high morale in your soldiers is another mark of good generalship), but Ned remembers Robert being in command at the Trident. The only battle that his allies won for him was the Battle of the Bells and he still lead a charge from behind enemy lines.

And what’s the Watsonian explanation?

Assuming we get an actual answer on the disconnect between different sources.

I was making the argument he may not have known Robert all that well in spite of being a candidate for Kingsguard. The fact he's on Stannis' War council is a representation of how small Stannis' base of support actually is after the Blackwater.

That might be a show comment so not to be used though when describing the battle to Samwell he simply say it was a defeat when than the caveat of it being indecisive we see from Tyrion. I don't think I've ever said his army was destroyed at Ashford only that his army was badly beaten or non-existent by Stoney Sept. There are a lot of ways that could have happened not just a defeat at Ashford.

As for Robert giving commands. Sure Robert is loud and has a voice to be overheard in the din of battle but just because he's giving the orders doesn't mean he's making them. He also wasn't the only one leading at the trident. Baelish (unreliable but the context suggests he's probably telling the truth) says that Lyn Corbray basically took command of the Rebel left to lead a counter charge against the Dornish threatening to defeat his left.

The other problem with Robert is that he's such a central figure in the Rebellion is a lot of other possibly more important figures are sidelined. The fact that Robert always has to say that Ned won him the battle of the Bells suggests that everyone attributes the victory much more to him than even he is comfortable with. You may get similar problems with other battles. The influence of figures like Jon Arryn, Hoster and Brynden Tully and Eddard Stark are overshadowed by Robert Baratheon.

The Watsonian explanation would be I suppose that Robert is a big presence particularly among Baratheon supporters and has a reputation for military accomplishment which means that when looking for a model to aspire to they turn to Robert. Stannis is also thinking a lot more on his relationship with his brothers after the defeat at the Blackwater and he's a bigger part of A Dance with Dragons than he was in the earlier books at least in chapters dealing with him more directly from his side.

17 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Show me where in the books is said that Robert was caught by surprise at Ashford.

Everyone praises Robert's military might, his taste for war, his strenght, leadership, everything about him is praised, he is onle defeated once, in a inconclusive affair, and the guy that beat him is now considered the best in the realm. He has two wars into his belt, but somehow you are fighting the books...

Since your referencing a quote from Me I'll respond.

As for the situation at Ashford we know a few things. One the Tyrell Van led by Randyll Tarly was separated by some distance from the Main Tyrell host. Second Robert and Randyll fought for at least a while before the Tyrell army arrived and Robert realised the day was lost. Third Robert was relatively successfully able to retreat away from the battle such that it could be considered an indecisive victory for the Loyalists. The third point precludes Robert being maneuvered into a forced battle. In such an action he might well have had a far harder time getting his army away and in such a situation it seems unlikely that the van and main body of the Tyrell army would have been so far apart. An accidental meeting encounter at close proximity near Ashford Castle is possible. Robert moving toward it Randyll moving away from it they meet start fighting and the Tyrell host just leaving Ashford Castle is then drawn in. It's also possible Robert thought he was only engaging part of the Tyrell host and when he realised he wasn't he withdrew having taken a beating in the meanwhile. The last possibility is that Robert knew what he was up against but sought to take advantage of the gap to destroy the Tyrell Van and then pull back. Only to find out that the Tyrell van was a lot stronger than it looks and once the rest of the Tyrell army arrives he had no choice but to withdraw. That would fit well with the idea that Robert was too aggressive and needed a more cautious commander like Ned to be most effective.

As for Robert being undefeated apart from Ashford. I would say it a product of a Robert propaganda network. We know the Loyalists won other unmentioned battles and It seems reasonable that one of them was another one Robert lost. Possibly a fairly serious encounter against Connington that resulted in the wounds that stranded him in Stoney Sept. It's also possible that Rhaegar managed to win a series of small victories over Rebel forces south of the Trident which forced them to regroup north of the Trident which to Rhaegar thinking he could beat them and he tried to cross the Trident to poor results.

Robert certainly has a justified reputation for charisma and was certainly a mighty warrior in his youth and extremely strong and Ned clearly thought he was pretty great. He is clearly not some perfect super god like figure who is great in everything. He clearly shows significant flaws both in personality and behaviour through out the books.

Also I'm not fighting the books I'm fighting the limited slice of information we're given by a select few individuals some of whom know nothing personally of the events in question.

As to the 5 to 1 battle victory. Well we don't know enough to say anything definitive. It likely occurred unless Stannis was taken in by Robert bragging about a battle victory or sought to exploit such bragging to encourage his men. Perhaps Robert successfully pulled off a night march to defeat a larger force by surprise. Jon did say he was known for them.

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10 hours ago, HerblYY said:

But the thing is, Roberts journey is written down entirely. 

So may I ask you when could that being 5 to 1 outnumbered battle happened? And if he won a battle like this, how it ain't worth mentioning?

If you ask me to guess then it would be before Ashford and after Summerhall. or after the bells and before the trident.

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2 hours ago, Thandros said:

Since your referencing a quote from Me I'll respond.

 

Thank you.

2 hours ago, Thandros said:

As for the situation at Ashford we know a few things. One the Tyrell Van led by Randyll Tarly was separated by some distance from the Main Tyrell host. Second Robert and Randyll fought for at least a while before the Tyrell army arrived and Robert realised the day was lost. Third Robert was relatively successfully able to retreat away from the battle such that it could be considered an indecisive victory for the Loyalists. The third point precludes Robert being maneuvered into a forced battle. In such an action he might well have had a far harder time getting his army away and in such a situation it seems unlikely that the van and main body of the Tyrell army would have been so far apart. 

 

It's not hard to find the Van to be far ahead of the main army in the series. Stannis for example split his army in two when he moves against KL, and the Van arrived days ahead of the main army. Renly when hear of Stannis also moves with his Vanguard days ahead of the main army, Robert sended Ned ahead with the Van after the trident and arrived so late he didn't saw the sack of KL.

We only have 4 mentions of Ashford in the books, the only info we have is Tarly killed lord Cafferen, Mace cousin died in the fighting, the battle was over before the main Tyrell army arrived, and Robert sucessufully retreated, no numbers, no movements, nothing. There is nothing that support this idea that Robert was caught by surprise.

Edited by Arthur Peres

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