Jump to content
Alyn Oakenfist

Ned treated Jon really badly

Recommended Posts

35 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

It's not hard to find the Van to be far ahead of the main army in the series. Stannis for example split his army in two when he moves against KL, and the Van arrived days ahead of the main army. Renly when hear of Stannis also moves with his Vanguard days ahead of the main army, Robert sended Ned ahead with the Van after the trident and arrived so late he didn't saw the sack of KL.

We only have 4 mentions of Ashford in the books, the only info we have is Tarly killed lord Cafferen, Mace cousin died in the fighting, the battle was over before the main Tyrell army arrived, and Robert sucessufully retreated, no numbers, no movements, nothing. There is nothing that support this idea that Robert was caught by surprise.

I said Robert being caught by surprise was a possibility not an absolute truth. Also Tyrion says the battle was largely won by Lord Tarly's Van before the main Tyrell host arrived. It suggests the the Tyrell host was arriving on the battlefield towards the end of the battle before Robert retreated but played no significant part in the battle.

As for Vans being in front of the army by days. That is possible but Ned led the Rebel van forward as Tywin was marching on King's Landing and his intentions were unknown to try and secure the city before Tywin arrived. Stannis sent his Van forward to scout and gather Intelligence just like Tywin did before the battle of the fords. On the other hand Tywin's Van was with him before the battle of the Green Fork and was clearly moving with his army. The text implies that Tarly was close to the Main host but a small distance away like maybe an hour or two in front.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Thandros said:

Assuming we get an actual answer on the disconnect between different sources.

I was making the argument he may not have known Robert all that well in spite of being a candidate for Kingsguard. The fact he's on Stannis' War council is a representation of how small Stannis' base of support actually is after the Blackwater.

That might be a show comment so not to be used though when describing the battle to Samwell he simply say it was a defeat when than the caveat of it being indecisive we see from Tyrion. I don't think I've ever said his army was destroyed at Ashford only that his army was badly beaten or non-existent by Stoney Sept. There are a lot of ways that could have happened not just a defeat at Ashford.

As for Robert giving commands. Sure Robert is loud and has a voice to be overheard in the din of battle but just because he's giving the orders doesn't mean he's making them. He also wasn't the only one leading at the trident. Baelish (unreliable but the context suggests he's probably telling the truth) says that Lyn Corbray basically took command of the Rebel left to lead a counter charge against the Dornish threatening to defeat his left.

The other problem with Robert is that he's such a central figure in the Rebellion is a lot of other possibly more important figures are sidelined. The fact that Robert always has to say that Ned won him the battle of the Bells suggests that everyone attributes the victory much more to him than even he is comfortable with. You may get similar problems with other battles. The influence of figures like Jon Arryn, Hoster and Brynden Tully and Eddard Stark are overshadowed by Robert Baratheon.

The Watsonian explanation would be I suppose that Robert is a big presence particularly among Baratheon supporters and has a reputation for military accomplishment which means that when looking for a model to aspire to they turn to Robert. Stannis is also thinking a lot more on his relationship with his brothers after the defeat at the Blackwater and he's a bigger part of A Dance with Dragons than he was in the earlier books at least in chapters dealing with him more directly from his side.

Maybe, but that seems like a stretch. Horpe and Massey are both old enough to have served in Roberts Rebellion and both tout Robert as a commander. And they’re not alone.

You said that he “blew his one army to dust” as if it was a mark of incompetence. I’m not even sure that it’s true, but if his army was really gone for most of the Rebellion, there are many ways that it could have happened. George said that there are many battles, sieges, ambushes and other engagements that took place during the war that we haven’t heard of and Robert was fighting alone in the south for a good portion of it. He was also able to retreat. Seemingly in good order, since Mace Tyrells main body was days away and Tyrion considered it indecisive. There’s no real reason for Tyrion to be lying to himself here. It’s not as if he’s a Robert acolyte or anything. At best you could say that he’s trying to diminish Mace, but he already acknowledged that the victory was Randyll in that scene.

Lyn Corbray commanding of a portion of the army, isn’t all that weird and it doesn’t mean that Robert wasn’t the one making the plans. In almost every major battle that we’ve seen, the armies have been split and given subordinate commanders under the leadership of an overarching commander. At the Blackwater, it was Tywins relief force against Stannis. At the Whispering Wood it was Robb and Jaime Lannister. At the Trident it was Robert and a Rhaegar. Having advisors and listening to them, isn’t a mark of bad generalship either way and that’s assuming that he had a very limited role in planning his battles. The part about Jon Arryn telling them that a commander needed a good battle voice and Robert had proved that on the Trident, isn’t just to show that he was commanding troops there (although that’s part of it). It’s not just to say that he had a loud voice and gave orders, but followed some other persons plans either. He was given the same education as Ned and a good chunk of a noblemans education in this world consists of training at arms, learning to ride horses and commanding troops.

Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested. I haven't gone into the whole history of the fighting, but there was a good deal more to it than just two armies meeting on the Trident. There were a number of earlier battles, sieges, escapes, ambushes, duels, and forays, and fighting in places as farflung as the Vale and the Dornish Marches.

They're probably overshadowed, because Robert was the one in command. How much credit do people like Brynden get in the battles of his namesake, Robb? I’m sure that they were all competent and probably good generals in their own right, but the fact that Roberts record overshadows theirs, doesn’t mean that they were responsible for the planning in Roberts battles.

Sure. And part of why Robert would have such a reputation among Baratheon supporters, is that he’d win battles at odds worse than 5 to 1.

Edited by Lee-Sensei

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Maybe, but that seems like a stretch. Horpe and Massey are both old enough to have served in Roberts Rebellion and both tout Robert as a commander. And they’re not alone.

You said that he “blew his one army to dust” as if it was a mark of incompetence. I’m not even sure that it’s true, but if his army was really gone for most of the Rebellion, there are many ways that it could have happened. George said that there are many battles, sieges, ambushes and other engagements that took place during the war that we haven’t heard of and Robert was fighting alone in the south for a good portion of it. He was also able to retreat. Seemingly in good order, since Mace Tyrells main body was days away and Tyrion considered it indecisive. There’s no real reason for Tyrion to be lying to himself here. It’s not as if he’s a Robert acolyte or anything. At best you could say that he’s trying to diminish Mace, but he already acknowledged that the victory was Randyll in that scene.

Lyn Corbray commanding of a portion of the army, isn’t all that weird and it doesn’t mean that Robert wasn’t the one making the plans. In almost every major battle that we’ve seen, the armies have been split and given subordinate commanders under the leadership of an overarching commander. At the Blackwater, it was Tywins relief force against Stannis. At the Whispering Wood it was Robb and Jaime Lannister. At the Trident it was Robert and a Rhaegar. Having advisors and listening to them, isn’t a mark of bad generalship either way and that’s assuming that he had a very limited role in planning his battles. The part about Jon Arryn telling them that a commander needed a good battle voice and Robert had proved that on the Trident, isn’t just to show that he was commanding troops there (although that’s part of it). It’s not just to say that he had a loud voice and gave orders, but followed some other persons plans either. He was given the same education as Ned and a good chunk of a noblemans education in this world consists of training at arms, learning to ride horses and commanding troops.

Tyrell had a sizeable host, but some of his strength was with Rhaegar, certainly. Rhaegar actually outnumbered Robert on the Trident, although Robert's troops were more battle-tested. I haven't gone into the whole history of the fighting, but there was a good deal more to it than just two armies meeting on the Trident. There were a number of earlier battles, sieges, escapes, ambushes, duels, and forays, and fighting in places as farflung as the Vale and the Dornish Marches.

They're probably overshadowed, because Robert was the one in command. How much credit do people like Brynden get in the battles of his namesake, Robb? I’m sure that they were all competent and probably good generals in their own right, but the fact that Roberts record overshadows theirs, doesn’t mean that they were responsible for the planning in Roberts battles.

Sure. And part of why Robert would have such a reputation among Baratheon supporters, is that he’d win battles at odds worse than 5 to 1.

You could definitely make that argument for Horpe as he may well have been old enough and could have fought in Robert's army. He may not have been highly ranked enough to get a particularly great look at his command abilities. Justin Massey is a crownslander. He would have been in Rhaegar's army not Robert's had he been old enough to fight. He was probably Robert's squire shortly after the war as an effective hostage while the loyalty of crownlands lords was still uncertain.

I didn't mean to say it to mean he was incompetent simply not the god level greatest general in Westeros some have claimed he was. Which he wasn't. Also there is nothing to suggest Mace Tyrell's main body was any more than a couple of hours away and that the arrival of the main body prompted Robert to retreat. Also Robert moved North after Ashford which happened fairly early on. Basically Robert got back to Storm's End started gathering men and then fought at Summerhall. Once he finished gathering men after that he marched and run straight into Ashford and then went North. I think most of the actual fighting took place in the Riverlands given what we know about the rebellion with the Stormlands dying down to sieges shortly after Ashford. The fact that Robert took his full muster and lost most of it in no more than a few months suggests his army fell to pieces fairly quickly particularity once Connington got on his tale.

The idea that receiving the same education somehow gives them the same ability seem utterly insane idea. You can't genuinely think that because two people might receive the same education they would end up with the same skill set and same capabilities. You can't actually think that.

Equally it doesn't mean the opposite is true either. Unless we get more details of Robert's campaigns by himself we can't rightly say anything. It's fairly easy for the people actually doing the planning and organizing for a victory to get overshadowed by those who held notional command.

Either that or Robert had a really great propaganda effort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Thandros said:

I didn't mean to say it to mean he was incompetent simply not the god level greatest general in Westeros some have claimed he was. Which he wasn't.

Then present us a better general in the series. So far no one came even close to the fat oaf.

 

14 hours ago, Thandros said:

You could definitely make that argument for Horpe as he may well have been old enough and could have fought in Robert's army. He may not have been highly ranked enough to get a particularly great look at his command abilities. Justin Massey is a crownslander. He would have been in Rhaegar's army not Robert's had he been old enough to fight. He was probably Robert's squire shortly after the war as an effective hostage while the loyalty of crownlands lords was still uncertain.

 

Age means nothing in nobility, Theon was in Robb's  and Balon's war council, being an enemy also does not stop someone to see brilliant in generalship on the other side, as Tyrion says about Robb for example.

 

14 hours ago, Thandros said:

Also Robert moved North after Ashford which happened fairly early on. Basically Robert got back to Storm's End started gathering men and then fought at Summerhall. Once he finished gathering men after that he marched and run straight into Ashford and then went North. I think most of the actual fighting took place in the Riverlands given what we know about the rebellion with the Stormlands dying down to sieges shortly after Ashford.

You forgot that other battles happened, for example in the Dornish marches, and it cannot happen after Robert marched north.

Robert having few men is not a living proof of bad generalship, his region has a lesser manpower than the others, he faced more rebel vassals than anyone else at the start, and he got involved in more battles than anyone else during the rebellion. Of course this will take a tool on his army. For contrast, Ned is the one involved in the least number of battles, his region was united and no one took the mad king side, and his region has the largest manpower of the rebels, no wonder the bulk of the rebels in the trident was made of northems.

14 hours ago, Thandros said:

The fact that Robert took his full muster and lost most of it in no more than a few months suggests his army fell to pieces fairly quickly particularity once Connington got on his tale.

Don't know how you measure the fall in numbers without having said numbers, also compare Robert to Tywin that lost 2 thirds of his army in few months, Stannis that lost 9/10 of his army in a single battle and Robert comes off pretty impressive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Then present us a better general in the series. So far no one came even close to the fat oaf.

 

Tristifer IV Mudd. Winning 99 battle and requiring an alliance of seven Andal kings (might have been more the old histories are fond of using the number 7) to finally defeat him. A more serious answer would require the second part of fire and blood so we can get a better look at some of the other wars of Westeros.

 

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Age means nothing in nobility, Theon was in Robb's  and Balon's war council, being an enemy also does not stop someone to see brilliant in generalship on the other side, as Tyrion says about Robb for example.

 

Maybe but I doubt and 11 or 12 years ld is going to be making brilliant tactical assessments of an enemy commander when he's spent the entire war in his home. As for Horpe he wouldn't have been in RObert's war council because of age but because house Horpe are basically nobodies. The fact he's in Stannis' is more a reflection both of Stannis' emphasis on competence and the fact he has very few people left to serve as commanders.

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

You forgot that other battles happened, for example in the Dornish marches, and it cannot happen after Robert marched north.

Robert having few men is not a living proof of bad generalship, his region has a lesser manpower than the others, he faced more rebel vassals than anyone else at the start, and he got involved in more battles than anyone else during the rebellion. Of course this will take a tool on his army. For contrast, Ned is the one involved in the least number of battles, his region was united and no one took the mad king side, and his region has the largest manpower of the rebels, no wonder the bulk of the rebels in the trident was made of northems.

The fighting in the Dornish Marches was probably more skirmishes between Dornish raiders and the local Stormlanders than large scale organized warfare. Also Robert didn't have the most rebellious vassals. That was the Riverlands and Robert was able to flip most of them back to his cause. The North may have  more manpower than the Stormlands (the numbers here are incredibly dubious) but it also takes a lot longer to gather them. THe distance between Winterfell and Stoney Sept is a lot further than the route Robert took. Ned would probably have had to leave Winterfell marching south before the Battle of Ashford to arrive and might not have even been able to gather anything close to a full muster with other parts of his army arriving later or not at all. Ned was probably involved in as many battles as most of the Riverlanders probably and there is nothing I remember to suggest that the bulk of the Rebel army at the trident was Northerner.

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Don't know how you measure the fall in numbers without having said numbers, also compare Robert to Tywin that lost 2 thirds of his army in few months, Stannis that lost 9/10 of his army in a single battle and Robert comes off pretty impressive.

One where the hell did Tywin loose two third of his army (not that Tywin has struck me as anything more than basically competent). 2 Stannis lost 3/4 of his army the rest defected to the enemy. Very different set of circumstances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Thandros said:

Maybe but I doubt and 11 or 12 years ld is going to be making brilliant tactical assessments of an enemy commander when he's spent the entire war in his home. As for Horpe he wouldn't have been in RObert's war council because of age but because house Horpe are basically nobodies. The fact he's in Stannis' is more a reflection both of Stannis' emphasis on competence and the fact he has very few people left to serve as commanders.

 

But he did grow older, and had the military education to analyse the info that was given to him, Stannis also kept him into his war council, so he is not clueless. He is a worthy source

 

22 minutes ago, Thandros said:

One where the hell did Tywin loose two third of his army (not that Tywin has struck me as anything more than basically competent). 2 Stannis lost 3/4 of his army the rest defected to the enemy. Very different set of circumstances.

Tywin raises three armies, his own, Jaime and Stafford, 2 out of those three got wiped out.

About Stannis, does not seems a better picture, losing 75% is a huge loss.

25 minutes ago, Thandros said:

One where the hell did Tywin loose two third of his army (not that Tywin has struck me as anything more than basically competent). 2 Stannis lost 3/4 of his army the rest defected to the enemy. Very different set of circumstances.

Seems worthy enough for GRRM to mention. 

Robert had 4 vassals of note supporting the Mad King, Caferen, Fell, Grandison and  Connington, the same amount of rebels that Hoster had, to get three of these four on his side he had to beat them all, to such a degree that he killed one of the lords and capture the other two. He lost some of his men, and he probably crushed most of theirs in Summerhall.

The north being the bulk was a false memory of mine, saw this argument on this forum, and took is as a quote. My bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Thandros said:

You could definitely make that argument for Horpe as he may well have been old enough and could have fought in Robert's army. He may not have been highly ranked enough to get a particularly great look at his command abilities. Justin Massey is a crownslander. He would have been in Rhaegar's army not Robert's had he been old enough to fight. He was probably Robert's squire shortly after the war as an effective hostage while the loyalty of crownlands lords was still uncertain.

I didn't mean to say it to mean he was incompetent simply not the god level greatest general in Westeros some have claimed he was. Which he wasn't. Also there is nothing to suggest Mace Tyrell's main body was any more than a couple of hours away and that the arrival of the main body prompted Robert to retreat. Also Robert moved North after Ashford which happened fairly early on. Basically Robert got back to Storm's End started gathering men and then fought at Summerhall. Once he finished gathering men after that he marched and run straight into Ashford and then went North. I think most of the actual fighting took place in the Riverlands given what we know about the rebellion with the Stormlands dying down to sieges shortly after Ashford. The fact that Robert took his full muster and lost most of it in no more than a few months suggests his army fell to pieces fairly quickly particularity once Connington got on his tale.

The idea that receiving the same education somehow gives them the same ability seem utterly insane idea. You can't genuinely think that because two people might receive the same education they would end up with the same skill set and same capabilities. You can't actually think that.

Equally it doesn't mean the opposite is true either. Unless we get more details of Robert's campaigns by himself we can't rightly say anything. It's fairly easy for the people actually doing the planning and organizing for a victory to get overshadowed by those who held notional command.

Either that or Robert had a really great propaganda effort.

I’m not sure about that, but even if he was Roberts squire after the Rebellion, he probably would have seen Robert take command during the Greyjoy Rebellion. At the very least, he’s likely older than Asha and she was about 13. Squires have gone into battle with the knights, Lords and Kings that they’ve served around that age. Besides, we’ve seen people from other regions serve closely under General from other regions. Theon sat on Robbs war council and Robar Royce sat on Renly’s.

Thats an assumption, but we also hear that there were battles in the Dornish marches and the Reach that we haven’t heard yet. Robert went back to Storms End after winning the three battles at Summerhall.

"My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm's End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen's white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison's sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. 'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends. Lord Cafferen died at Ashford Castle, cut down by Randyll Tarly whilst fighting for Robert. Lord Grandison was wounded on the Trident and died of it a year after. My brother made them love him.”

Receiving the same education as Ned doesn’t mean that they’d have the same abilities. It means that he should know what he’s doing as should most noblemen. Moreover, the fact that he has a record of successes, indicates that he learned the lessons.

Sure we can. These victories are credited to Robert by everyone including Ned. The one victory that wasn’t credited to Robert was the Battle of the Bells. If someone else was responsible for his victories, why wouldn’t we have heard it by now like with Mace Tyrell. You pointed out that Stannis mentioned that Mace Tyrell took credits for Randyll Tarlys victory at Ashford. If Robert was really taking credit for other people’s victories, wouldn’t he have said as much?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

But he did grow older, and had the military education to analyse the info that was given to him, Stannis also kept him into his war council, so he is not clueless. He is a worthy source

 

Maybe but that doesn't mean he actually knows exactly what happened during the Rebellion. For all we know he's just as taken in by Baratheon propaganda as others.

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Tywin raises three armies, his own, Jaime and Stafford, 2 out of those three got wiped out.

About Stannis, does not seems a better picture, losing 75% is a huge loss.

Neither Stafford's nor Jamie's armies got wiped out. roughly a third of Jamie's army was able to retreat and a portion of Stafford's got away. Also neither of those armies was as large as Tywin's (the size of Stafford's army is uncertain but I don't think ti was 20,000) Also arguing about Tywin losing armies he wasn't in command of and had no ability to give instruction is an incredibly uningenious way to make an argument.

On Stannis sure but given he got outflanked by an army which after defections outnumbered him at least 11 to 1 the fact any of his army survived and got away is pretty incredible in and of itself is it not.

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Seems worthy enough for GRRM to mention. 

Robert had 4 vassals of note supporting the Mad King, Caferen, Fell, Grandison and  Connington, the same amount of rebels that Hoster had, to get three of these four on his side he had to beat them all, to such a degree that he killed one of the lords and capture the other two. He lost some of his men, and he probably crushed most of theirs in Summerhall.

The north being the bulk was a false memory of mine, saw this argument on this forum, and took is as a quote. My bad.

GRRM is trying to give an answer that the scope of the fighting is much broader than the few battles we hear about.

The thing is the four Rebels we know about from the Stormlands are probably all the Stormlands rebels while the five we hear about in the Riverlands are likely only the ones we've been told about. It's perfectly possible there were more defectors in the Riverlands than currently mentioned.

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I’m not sure about that, but even if he was Roberts squire after the Rebellion, he probably would have seen Robert take command during the Greyjoy Rebellion. At the very least, he’s likely older than Asha and she was about 13. Squires have gone into battle with the knights, Lords and Kings that they’ve served around that age. Besides, we’ve seen people from other regions serve closely under General from other regions. Theon sat on Robbs war council and Robar Royce sat on Renly’s.

 

Given that Stannis claim he learned his taste for flesh while squiring for Robert it seems likely that almost all of his squireship was spent in King's Landing. If he did serve in the Greyjoy Rebellion as Robert's squire By the Time Robert would have gotten involved in the War it would have devolved into effectively a series of sieges on Land as the Greyjoy fleet was destroyed at Fair isle. On land the Greyjoys were never a threat and it seems unlikely there was any serious strategic or tactical considerations to do while sieging down Pyke. Yeh but Robar Royce and Theon weren't (at the time) on the opposite side of the faction whose leader's war council they sat on.

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Thats an assumption, but we also hear that there were battles in the Dornish marches and the Reach that we haven’t heard yet. Robert went back to Storms End after winning the three battles at Summerhall.

 

Everything we are saying is mostly assumptions. We have so little to work with we can't say anything with certainty.

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Receiving the same education as Ned doesn’t mean that they’d have the same abilities. It means that he should know what he’s doing as should most noblemen. Moreover, the fact that he has a record of successes, indicates that he learned the lessons.

 

Doesn't make him a great general.

 

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Sure we can. These victories are credited to Robert by everyone including Ned. The one victory that wasn’t credited to Robert was the Battle of the Bells. If someone else was responsible for his victories, why wouldn’t we have heard it by now like with Mace Tyrell. You pointed out that Stannis mentioned that Mace Tyrell took credits for Randyll Tarlys victory at Ashford. If Robert was really taking credit for other people’s victories, wouldn’t he have said as much?

Where does Ned say that? Don't include the Trident. Robert won that in a duel so it's kinda special case. Also Ashford was a particularly egregious case of stolen credit. Robert may have been present and even notionally in command for victories he personally had little to do with winning. Who won the battle of Tannenberg (1914) Hindenburg, Ludendorff or Hoffmann?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Thandros said:

Neither Stafford's nor Jamie's armies got wiped out. roughly a third of Jamie's army was able to retreat and a portion of Stafford's got away. Also neither of those armies was as large as Tywin's (the size of Stafford's army is uncertain but I don't think ti was 20,000) Also arguing about Tywin losing armies he wasn't in command of and had no ability to give instruction is an incredibly uningenious way to make an argument.

 

Jaime's survivors joined with Stafford, and the survivors of oxcross are less than 2k as we seen then in the siege of Riverrun. 

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Tooth_and_the_Tyroshi

and Tywin also has part on this, on both situations he is outmanuvered by Robb. First at the Greenfork he mistakes it for the whole army, sends words for Jaime about the location of Robb, that helped Jaime being caught with his briefs down. Tywin also got beat by a army half his size lead by Edmure, probably the second worst commander in the series. 

1 hour ago, Thandros said:

Maybe but that doesn't mean he actually knows exactly what happened during the Rebellion. For all we know he's just as taken in by Baratheon propaganda as others.

 

We don't see much propaganda about the Baratheons, we don't have a single song about the Rebellion, no tournament, Robert still cursed in Dorne, Mathis Rowan still takes the side of the Targs about the sack of KL, Renly openly bad mounth Stannis and the time Crester almost turned them into cannibals. The only drop of "propaganda" we have is "The Demon of the Trident", and is fact that Robert killed Rhaegar there.

1 hour ago, Thandros said:

Neither Stafford's nor Jamie's armies got wiped out. roughly a third of Jamie's army was able to retreat and a portion of Stafford's got away. Also neither of those armies was as large as Tywin's (the size of Stafford's army is uncertain but I don't think ti was 20,000) Also arguing about Tywin losing armies he wasn't in command of and had no ability to give instruction is an incredibly uningenious way to make an argument.

 

There were only four loyalists in the Riverlands, just like in the Stormlands, Hoster entered the war much later than Robert, only at the battle of the bells, and his army already had joined with Ned and Jon Arryn, while Robert was fighting in the south by himself, for a longer period.

Edited by Arthur Peres

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime's survivors joined with Stafford, and the survivors of this ragtag army are less than 2k as we seen then in the siege of Riverrun.

We don't see that at all. We have no idea how many of the survivors from Stafford and Preston's original armies are at the siege of Riverrun. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before, so this not new information for you.

There are two possibilities;

  •  the entirety of those survivors were brought into the Riverlands for clean up duty
  • only a portion of those survivors were brought into the Riverlands for clean up duty

Given and Cersei has already sent most of the Westerland army at Kings Landing home, that the Freys, Brackens and other Riverland Lords are now fighting for the Crown, it seems unlikely that every single survivor from those two armies is needed.

 

Every couple of months you seem to be repeating the same mistaken arguments. Why?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We don't see that at all. We have no idea how many of the survivors from Stafford and Preston's original armies are at the siege of Riverrun. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before, so this not new information for you.

 

Kinda yeah. I still belive in the author over you, look at the link.

First; did Ser Forley Prester send any part of his 4000 men at the Golden Tooth to Ser Stafford Lannister at Oxcross, in order to augment his host? Or were they all kept at the Tooth by Prester?

That's much too big a garrison for a small castle like the Tooth, so I expect that he sent many of them down to Ser Stafford. Blooded veterans to help train the raw green levies... of course, that didn't work out too well...

Daven is the one leading the remainings after Oxcroos until the siege of RR and he asked for reinforcements to both Kevan and Jaime, if he had more men with him, he would bring them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to complement the previous post, Harenhall probably the biggest castle in the series, acording with GRRM, a garrison of 300 is more than enough. source:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1160

Harrenhal is an immensely strong castle, and a garrison of three hundred is quite sizeable in medieval terms. Ser Amory =should= have been able to hold it. Lord Tywin likely thought that Roose Bolton might descend on the castle and besiege it, in which case Lorch could likely have held out for half a year or longer. The wild card here was Vargo Hoat changing sides.

Also by the words of the author the Golden Tooth is a small castle, so logically his garrison would be much smaller.

Most of this 4k survivors went to Oxcross, and were once again beaten, killed or scatered. The survivors are lead by Daven Lannister and only take the field much later, having time to reorganize, reagroup and he only has a less than 2k.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Then present us a better general in the series. So far no one came even close to the fat oaf.

Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, Randyll Tarly, Roose Bolton, Brynden Tully,  even Robb Stark, Jeor Mormont, Loras fucking Tyrell, Jamie Lannister, Kevan Lannister and even Tyrion defending KL etc. Should I continue?

The more you and @Lee-Sensei talk, the more you two make yourselves idiots.

Oh, and write me please down that Robert won a battle (which we know nothing more about) while outnumbered 5 to 1. Please just write it down again

 

 

Edited by HerblYY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, HerblYY said:

Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, Randyll Tarly, Roose Bolton,  even Robb Stark, Jeor Mormont, Loras fucking Tyrell, Jamie Lannister, Kevan Lannister and even Tyrion defending KL etc. Should I continue?

 

 

 

Neither of them come even close.

Tywin got beat by Edmure with half his numbers .Stannis by his own admission is inferior to Robert and gets pissed with the comparison, Roose bolt hasn't won a single victory so far, Loras killed half of his men to take one castle and is bad mounted by his own allies, Tyrion, Jeor and Kevan do not lead a single battle, Jaime mocks his own resume in the Whitebook. honestly with those names being listesd I'm surprised Balon, Edmure or Sir Rodrik are not named...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime's survivors joined with Stafford, and the survivors of oxcross are less than 2k as we seen then in the siege of Riverrun. 

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Tooth_and_the_Tyroshi

and Tywin also has part on this, on both situations he is outmanuvered by Robb. First at the Greenfork he mistakes it for the whole army, sends words for Jaime about the location of Robb, that helped Jaime being caught with his briefs down. Tywin also got beat by a army half his size lead by Edmure, probably the second worst commander in the series. 

Thing is given the supply difficulties that the Lannisters have at Riverrun and the fact the garrison is only a couple hundred strong with no prospect of relief and the financial problems of the Iron throne a smaller force was probably deliberately sent. A relatively elite force of Daven's army was dispatched and the rest simply sent home. There can't be a reliable correlation between the number of survivors from Oxcross and the Lannister army at the siege of Riverrun.

I think Jamie would have been caught with his briefs down regardless of what Tywin did. He'd shown a restless aggression during the first siege and it would have been relatively simple for anyone to lure him out. The assumption that Late Lord Frey with his ties to the Lannisters may decide to simply sit out the war after the Lannisters virtually overrun would have been made by virtually anyone. That the Freys decided to gamble by throwing in their lot initially with the Starks probably would have surprised anyone. Also Edmure is hardly the Second worst commander. Stafford Lannister clearly forgot the most basic rules of warfare. Half the Yunkish commanders are utterly hopeless. Renly shows very little talent for warfare. The thing is we rarely hear about the truly incompetent since they never gets commands. People already know they can't command armies. Edmure puts together a decent plan to defeat Tywin Lannister based on reasonable assumptions and successfully defends a defensible position through careful deployment of limited forces and swift commitment of reserves to the critical position. In contrast Robb's plan through Clash is based on a rash of assumptions which make no sense.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

We don't see much propaganda about the Baratheons, we don't have a single song about the Rebellion, no tournament, Robert still cursed in Dorne, Mathis Rowan still takes the side of the Targs about the sack of KL, Renly openly bad mounth Stannis and the time Crester almost turned them into cannibals. The only drop of "propaganda" we have is "The Demon of the Trident", and is fact that Robert killed Rhaegar there.

Dorne is hostile to the regime. Any propaganda effort there wouldn't even begin to happen. Mathis Rowan shows slight disgust at the bald face lies of Tywin Lannister in private about Tywin's claims involving the murder a member of a noble house. The propaganda is about Robert not Stannis. The next point doesn't make sense at all. You've crossed Cressen and Craster and the thing about almost having to resort to cannibalism is a private memory about just how desperate the siege of Storm's end was before Davos arrived with his onions. The thing about propaganda is that unless you know what actually happened (we don't) you can't easily pick it up. A lot of the stories from the Rebellion we get are probably distorted and twisted so much that we can't tell what actually happened. Take the Demon of the Trident stories. You assume that's all about his duel with Rhaegar based on what we know. I think it more likely it's about the absolute killing spree Robert when on through the Targaryen lines to get to Rhaegar before killing him. The actual story may have been Robert with a few men at his back killed his way through a line of Targaryen or two to get to Rhaegar. Maybe killing ten or twenty men or so before getting to Rhaegar. Some of the DOTT stories probably up the number he killed to 50 or a hundred before getting to Rhaegar and it did it by himself or perhaps with one guy backing him up who didn't do much.

The thing is everything I'm writing is propaganda, Everything you are writing is Propaganda. We're both trying to convince people to our point of view.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

There were only four loyalists in the Riverlands, just like in the Stormlands, Hoster entered the war much later than Robert, only at the battle of the bells, and his army already had joined with Ned and Jon Arryn, while Robert was fighting in the south by himself, for a longer period.

One it's not exactly clear when Hoster joined. Two which side did house Whent fight on? House Blackwood and Bracken? Piper, Vance and how many other Riverland Houses? We don't know who fought on which side for most Riverland houses. To argue there were only four loyalists in the Riverlands is very naive given how much information we have.

31 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Daven is the one leading the remainings after Oxcroos until the siege of RR and he asked for reinforcements to both Kevan and Jaime, if he had more men with him, he would bring them.

He was more interested in counsel from Kevan rather than more men. He says as such to Jamie when he arrives. Half of the problems Daven have are the fractured nature of the forces besieging Riverrun and he wanted someone with more personal authority backing him to help his position which is what he gets when Jamie arrives. The other half of his problems are supply. Jamie knows this even when he is leaving King's Landing that they are having problems feeding their men. Daven needed someone to help exert authority over the Freys and Riverlanders not reinforcements to defeat the Tully forces inside riverrun.

8 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, Randyll Tarly, Roose Bolton,  even Robb Stark, Jeor Mormont, Loras fucking Tyrell, Jamie Lannister, Kevan Lannister and even Tyrion defending KL etc. Should I continue?

 

Umm I wouldn't rate even half of those guys as better than Robert Baratheon. Loras Tyrell for example only holds command during the assault on Dragonstone and ends up taking it at a horrible loss rate against a vastly inferior force. Then again there is something going on with Dragonstone I think which hasn't been made clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Thandros said:

One it's not exactly clear when Hoster joined. Two which side did house Whent fight on? House Blackwood and Bracken? Piper, Vance and how many other Riverland Houses? We don't know who fought on which side for most Riverland houses. To argue there were only four loyalists in the Riverlands is very naive given how much information we have.

 

Hoster and Catelyn do not have any contempt for the Blackswoods, Brackens, Whent, Piper or Vance, they do have it for the Freys for staying neutral until the last minute. The other ones were punished, with Darry losing half of it's lands for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Thandros said:

Umm I wouldn't rate even half of those guys as better than Robert Baratheon. Loras Tyrell for example only holds command during the assault on Dragonstone and ends up taking it at a horrible loss rate against a vastly inferior force. Then again there is something going on with Dragonstone I think which hasn't been made clear.

Yeah I think theres a conspiracy going on. 1) Mace doesn't seem concerned about his son while talking about him 2)Two septas mention Margaery's brother and one shushes the other from speaking 3) The only source for the claim is Aurane Waters who is playing Cersei 4)The men were Lannister men so he could have been pulling a Roose and letting them die to weaken the Lannister regime. We won't know until Winds though.

Edited by S. D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Hoster and Catelyn do not have any contempt for the Blackswoods, Brackens, Whent, Piper or Vance, they do have it for the Freys for staying neutral until the last minute. The other ones were punished, with Darry losing half of it's lands for example.

Neither do they show contempt for Darry either. We only know Darry lost Land because Merret mentions it. It's possible some of them did fight on the Loyalist side and where punished for it but not as badly as Darry. The comptempt for the Freys is because they were trying to play both sides. arrive at the last minute and join the winning side. And Walder Frey is an absolutely horrible person. Given how every other civil war except WOFK has Blackwood and Bracken on opposite sides one must assume That would hold true for Robert's Rebellion. Given the amount of lands Bracken wants to nab back from Blackwoods when Jamie meets them at Raventree Hall perhaps the Brackens were loyalists and some some of the disputed territories. Also Darry got off lightly. Connington lost 90% of their lands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Kinda yeah. I still belive in the author over you, look at the link.

The author does not say what you think he does. Where does he say that all the survivors from Preston and Stafford's army went to the Riverlands.

7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

First; did Ser Forley Prester send any part of his 4000 men at the Golden Tooth to Ser Stafford Lannister at Oxcross, in order to augment his host? Or were they all kept at the Tooth by Prester?

That's much too big a garrison for a small castle like the Tooth, so I expect that he sent many of them down to Ser Stafford. Blooded veterans to help train the raw green levies... of course, that didn't work out too well...

Daven is the one leading the remainings after Oxcroos until the siege of RR and he asked for reinforcements to both Kevan and Jaime, if he had more men with him, he would bring them.

Why would he? The war was over, it was clean up time.

As for the Lannister host, two thousand seasoned veterans remained encamped outside the city walls, awaiting the arrival of Paxter Redwyne's fleet to carry them across Blackwater Bay to Dragonstone. Lord Stannis appeared to have left only a small garrison behind him when he sailed north, so two thousand men would be more than sufficient, Cersei had judged.
The rest of the westermen had gone back to their wives and children, to rebuild their homes, plant their fields, and bring in one last harvest.
 
Cersei is sending the majority of the Lannister army home from Kings Landing. It is more than possible that the some/many of the army reserves in the Westerlands was released as well.
 
We simply don't know if all of the survivors from those two armies are with Daven in the Riverlands? Are you unable to admit that?
 
7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Just to complement the previous post, Harenhall probably the biggest castle in the series, acording with GRRM, a garrison of 300 is more than enough. source:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1160

Harrenhal is an immensely strong castle, and a garrison of three hundred is quite sizeable in medieval terms. Ser Amory =should= have been able to hold it. Lord Tywin likely thought that Roose Bolton might descend on the castle and besiege it, in which case Lorch could likely have held out for half a year or longer. The wild card here was Vargo Hoat changing sides.

Also by the words of the author the Golden Tooth is a small castle, so logically his garrison would be much smaller.

Most of this 4k survivors went to Oxcross, and were once again beaten, killed or scatered. The survivors are lead by Daven Lannister and only take the field much later, having time to reorganize, reagroup and he only has a less than 2k.

What does this have to do with Daven's army brought into the Riverlands in AFFC?

Robb and the Northern army have been defeated by the time Daven is summoned. The Freys, Brackens, Goodbrooks and Vances have sued for peace.  This is clean up time for the Crown.

Again, I'm not arrogant enough to say that you are 100% wrong, I'm just saying you could be. The fact that for the last few years we have had this conversation multiple times and you still can't admit that is slightly worrying.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Thandros said:

Neither do they show contempt for Darry either. We only know Darry lost Land because Merret mentions it. It's possible some of them did fight on the Loyalist side and where punished for it but not as badly as Darry. The comptempt for the Freys is because they were trying to play both sides. arrive at the last minute and join the winning side. And Walder Frey is an absolutely horrible person. Given how every other civil war except WOFK has Blackwood and Bracken on opposite sides one must assume That would hold true for Robert's Rebellion. Given the amount of lands Bracken wants to nab back from Blackwoods when Jamie meets them at Raventree Hall perhaps the Brackens were loyalists and some some of the disputed territories. Also Darry got off lightly. Connington lost 90% of their lands.

Lord Darry is a kid of 8. All his brothers died in the Rebellion or were exiled with Dany and Viserys. Dany is not Cersei to hate a boy for a something that happened before he was born. The fact that they were punish shows what happened to the ones that picked the wrong side.

Blackwood and Brackens fought at the same side during the War of the Five Kings, they both also took the side of Aegon I, unless you have a quote of one of them fighting on the loyalist side, I will stick with that they were rebels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...