“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

My radical theory is Quaithe is feeding Dany these prophecies with enough nuggets of truth to them to have her second guessing herself and distrustful of those all around her. Thus crippling her ability to function effectively. 

Yah I'm with you.  Quaithe warns Dany off everyone would could possibly help her.  

[Curled Finger]

It's not a super popular idea, but I really got excited about the path Brienne & Co take to get to the Quiet Isle.  Read it.  It matches the directions Quaithe gives Dany.  QI being a place of hidden knowledge, definitely secret identities--lots to find out there.   Can't imagine how it fits with Dany outside the rubies they find.  

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I never said the Starks were Targaryens by blood. I only pointed out that both Starks and Targaryens married Blackwoods around the same time, and that's the blood that they share. If Betha and Melantha were sisters as a few people, including myself, suspect, then their Blackwood blood makes the Targaryens and the Starks actual cousins.

@Rose of Red Lake

Warning - this is my theory/hypothesis, not facts.

GRRM uses patterns in his writing, for example - there are four Bells in Otherys family, mothers and daughters:

Bellegere (first Black Pearl) - Bellenora - Bellonara - Bellegere (current Black Pearl);

mother and daughter - Chataya and Alayaya;

ancestors and descendants:

Samarro Saan - Salladhor Saan; Xhobar Qhoqua - Jalabhar Xho;

in Stark family there are a lot of variation of names Bran, Ben, and Lyanna:

Bran, Brandon, Branda, Barthogan, Benjen, Beron, Bennard, Lyanna, Lyarra, Lyanne, Alysanne, Lysara.

Two generations prior Melantha Blackwood married into House Stark, there was Mariah Stark, daughter of Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood. One generation after Mariah in House Blackwood there was Melissa Blackwood, and after her her daughter Mya Rivers, Bloodraven's sister and Aegon IV' bastard-daughter.

Based on examples of other patterns used in ASOIAF by GRRM, it is likely that Melissa Blackwood was Cregan Stark's granddaughter, and Melantha Blackwood was Melissa's granddaughter. Missing gaps in the Stark family tree:

Mariah Stark + Blackwood-husband = Melissa Blackwood + Aegon IV Targaryen = Bloodraven, Gwenys, Mya Rivers + Blackwood-husband = Betha, Melantha Blackwood + Stark-husband.

Thus Starks are partially dragonseeds, Aegon IV's descendants.

 

Though it's likely that children and grandchildren of Minisa Whent-Tully are also dragonseeds, because, maybe, first Lord Whent of Harrenhal (Catelyn's great great grandfather, grandfather of Shella Whent) was the Bastard of Harrenhal, secret son of Jeyne Lothston and Aegon IV Targaryen (he was born in 178 or 179, and that pregnancy was the real reason why Aegon had to send Jeyne away from his court. Because people suspected that she was his daughter, so impregnating her would have caused serious troubles for Targaryen regime, like an uprising of Faith Militant (like that one in 41-48 AC). So they lied to everyone that Jeyne got pox from Aegon, and that's why he evicted her from court. She's a dragonseed, thus she is immune to diseases of normal humans, and the story about pox was a lie). This Bastard of Harrenhal was also the father of the sellsword from Braavos (son of an Otherys Belle), and Petyr Baelish' great great grandfather. So Littlefinger and Cat are third cousins.

Current generation of Starks got dragonseed genes from two people - Mya Rivers and the Bastard of Harrenhal, both were Aegon IV's children.

[Darth Sidious]

23 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, this is gonna to suck. 

So I was fascinated with much of the theories related to Dany and Quiathe for many years (note: I still am) 

I was introduced on this site to the theory that Quiathe is Shiera Seastar. 

I'm pretty sure that is correct. 

However I was browsing this mainstream web site which was all about the TV show and its tag line was "the finale answered this prophecy from season 2". 

I laughed because I was like "yeah sure, whatever." 

But then I read the article and my heart sank. The mystique of this riddle is completely ruined. 

1. To go north, you must journey south- That's Sansa 

2. To reach the west, you must go east- That's Arya 

3. To go forward you must go back- That's Bran (the weirwoods show the past) 

4. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow- That's Jon (He dies and comes back to life) 

 

This is devastating to me, years of theories and speculations result into the answer being: Quiathe was talking about the Stark children. 

But how are they connected to Dany? I read a thread here were people were saying the Starks are Targaryen by blood so maybe that has something to do with it. There is more to figure out, and I believe this will connect to Dany's origins with the house and the red door and the lemon tree. So speculate away my fellow ASOIAF nerds. 

I'm going to need to drink this off 

This is a hero's journey.  Journey in terms of inner growth more so than the actual sightseeing tour.  She says "if I look back I am lost."  But perhaps one needs to lose oneself in order to find the right path again.  It's about the importance of looking back and taking stock.  Adapting to Ghiscari is not the way to end the mind set of slavery.  It's better to force the Ghiscari to adapt to a new way to get rid of the slaving mind set.  

[Darth Sidious]

13 hours ago, Roswell said:

These prophecies have nothing at all to do with the Starks. 

I'm on board with this.  Qaithe is Lady Farman.  

[Darth Sidious]

11 hours ago, TedBear said:

First, is this really a prophecy? I understood that Quaithe speaking metaphorically to Dany, she was telling Dany to seek knowledge (about magic, dragons, long night, whatever) Dany associates the "shadow" with Asshai and Quaithe says that she will find the truth there, the people of Asshai claim that they were the ones who passed the knowledge about dragons to the Valyrians, although we do not know if it is true, in any case they are strongly linked to magic, dragons are fire and fire "is the light" Dany has a dragon but has no idea what to do with him, but dragons know, because the dragons remember who she is, she is a targaryen, a valyrian and valyrians were immersed in fire and blood magic. Quaithe doesn't seem to prophesy things, she sees people around Dany and people looking for Dany through a glass candle

I am on board with Qaithe = Farman.  It may also explain why she gives vague advice rather than getting to the point.  Because she is an un-dead.  She uses magic to extend her life.  The Undyings did.  It can be done.  But having one foot in death's doorway messes up with the perception of time and reality.  She extended her life to wait for Daenerys.

[Son of Man]

On 10/9/2020 at 8:19 PM, Rosetta Stone said:

You're venturing into Preston Jacobs territory.  Quaithe is telling Daenerys to take an indirect path to her goals.  It is not at all dissimilar to Brynden Rivers teaching Bran.  All the families have buried their heads in the game of thrones and it will take Daenerys and Bran to learn the truth about the existential threat to life.  Quaithe wants her to learn as much as she can about the world.

Going by way of the east and arriving on the Westerlands will take the enemies by surprise.  Quaithe is telling her to think out of the box and do the unexpected.  The long way is sometimes the better way.

[Son of Man]

On 10/9/2020 at 10:16 PM, Lord Lannister said:

My radical theory is Quaithe is feeding Dany these prophecies with enough nuggets of truth to them to have her second guessing herself and distrustful of those all around her. Thus crippling her ability to function effectively. 

I don't think so.  Quaithe is capable of hurting Dany without going through all that trouble.  Quaithe is clearly looking out for Dany. 

[Lord Lannister]

39 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

I don't think so.  Quaithe is capable of hurting Dany without going through all that trouble.  Quaithe is clearly looking out for Dany. 

If that's the case you think she'd be more specific.

[Frey family reunion]

On 10/10/2020 at 6:29 AM, TedBear said:

First, is this really a prophecy? I understood that Quaithe speaking metaphorically to Dany, she was telling Dany to seek knowledge (about magic, dragons, long night, whatever) Dany associates the "shadow" with Asshai and Quaithe says that she will find the truth there, the people of Asshai claim that they were the ones who passed the knowledge about dragons to the Valyrians, although we do not know if it is true, in any case they are strongly linked to magic, dragons are fire and fire "is the light" Dany has a dragon but has no idea what to do with him, but dragons know, because the dragons remember who she is, she is a targaryen, a valyrian and valyrians were immersed in fire and blood magic. Quaithe doesn't seem to prophesy things, she sees people around Dany and people looking for Dany through a glass candle

Yea, I’m not sure this is any great mystery.  Quaithe confirmed to Dany that she was telling Dany to go to Asshai to learn some truth that she needed to know before she headed to Westeros to claim her “birthright”.  

ETA: She’s not the first one to try and get Dany to go to Asshai.  Jorah (while still firmly in the employ of Varys and Illyrio) kept trying to get Dany to go to Asshai as well.

[John Suburbs]

On 10/9/2020 at 8:08 PM, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, this is gonna to suck. 

So I was fascinated with much of the theories related to Dany and Quiathe for many years (note: I still am) 

I was introduced on this site to the theory that Quiathe is Shiera Seastar. 

I'm pretty sure that is correct. 

However I was browsing this mainstream web site which was all about the TV show and its tag line was "the finale answered this prophecy from season 2". 

I laughed because I was like "yeah sure, whatever." 

But then I read the article and my heart sank. The mystique of this riddle is completely ruined. 

1. To go north, you must journey south- That's Sansa 

2. To reach the west, you must go east- That's Arya 

3. To go forward you must go back- That's Bran (the weirwoods show the past) 

4. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow- That's Jon (He dies and comes back to life) 

 

This is devastating to me, years of theories and speculations result into the answer being: Quiathe was talking about the Stark children. 

But how are they connected to Dany? I read a thread here were people were saying the Starks are Targaryen by blood so maybe that has something to do with it. There is more to figure out, and I believe this will connect to Dany's origins with the house and the red door and the lemon tree. So speculate away my fellow ASOIAF nerds. 

I'm going to need to drink this off 

The thing about these kinds of cryptic prophecies is that you can read into them pretty much anything you want. So, sure, north-south might be Sansa, west-east might be Arya, forward-back: Bran, light-shadow: Jon. But it could also mean:

-- North-south: Dany, go from Pentos (even Braavos?) to Quarth to Meereen to Dragonstone(?) then north of the Wall

 -- West-east: Dany, go from Dragonstone to Pentos to Vaes Dothrak to Quarth, then back to Westeros

 -- Forward-back: Dany, go back to Westeros in order to secure her future legacy

 -- Light-shadow: Dany, do some unsavory things in order to achieve your destiny

 

Honestly, even if the Starks and Targs are related somehow, why would Quaithe choose this moment to tell Dany all the things the Starks must do to get out of their jam half a world away?

[Mourning Star]

The road, or your journey, isn't straight, and if the light is the destination then you must deal with things in the way casting shadows.

Can't help but think of Tolkein.

The road goes ever on and on, down from the door where it began... Dany's red door, home.

Roads go ever ever on,
Over rock and under tree,
By caves where never sun has shone,
By streams that never find the sea;
Over snow by winter sown,
And through the merry flowers of June,
Over grass and over stone,
And under mountains in the moon.
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star,
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known

-The Hobbit

Quote

She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. 

And then if we compare the Lord of the Rings version, which we get in bits:

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

...

The Road goes ever on and on
Out from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
Let others follow it who can!
Let them a journey new begin,
But I at last with weary feet
Will turn towards the lighted inn,
My evening-rest and sleep to meet.

We see a nice duality of start and finish here... but also oddly reminiscent of Frost's Poem, The Road Not Taken, (which itself is a reference to the beginning of Dante):

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

And Frost, of course, borrows the allegory of the yellow wood from Dante, whom he also references in Fire and Ice, from which the series A Song of Ice and Fire gets it's name.

And when Frodo does return to the Shire, this is what he sings:

Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate,
And though I oft have passed them by,
A day will come at last when I
Shall take the hidden paths that run
West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

After all, in the words of Dante, Frost, or Samwise, the message remains the same:

For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach

[Frey family reunion]

I think we’re overthinking this a bit.  Quaithe a shadow binder from Asshai wants Dany to go to Asshai.  So the question is what does Quaithe hope to accomplish by bringing Dany to Asshai?

I think the answer is simple.  If Dany is the Mother of Dragons, why stop at hatching only three?

We know Asshai is associated with dragons:

Quote

“Dragon’s eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai,” said Magister Illyrio. “The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty.”

Quote

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Quote

“Dragons are gone, Khaleesi,” Irri said.

“Dead,” agreed Jhiqui. “Long and long ago.”

“Everywhere?” she said, disappointed. “Even in the east?” Magic had died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, and neither spell-forged steel nor stormsingers nor dragons could hold it back, but Dany had always heard that the east was different. It was said that manticores prowled the islands of the Jade Sea, that basilisks infested the jungles of Yi Ti, that spellsingers, warlocks, and aeromancers practiced their arts openly in Asshai, while shadowbinders and bloodmages worked terrible sorceries in the black of night. Why shouldn’t there be dragons too?

“No dragon,” Irri said. “Brave men kill them, for dragon terrible evil beasts. It is known.”

“It is known,” agreed Jhiqui.

So Dany’s eggs are hatched amidst a funeral pyre and a blood magic ritual from a Maegi who learned the art in Asshai.  Fire and Blood.

So in addition to dragon eggs, what else can be found in Asshai?

Quote

“There is a spell.” Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. “But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson.  My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands.”

So we have the tools and the materials needed to hatch dragons.  The only thing I think we’re missing is a person with the necessary bloodline who’s presence is needed to hatch them.  That’s where Dany comes in.

Asshai is trying to get Dany to go to Asshai to fulfill Dany’s role as the Mother of Dragons.  That’s the identity Asshai is trying to get Dany to fulfill:

Quote

“Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are.”

In Qarth Quaithe asks this question to Dany:

Quote

The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany’s wrist. “You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?”

In the House of the Undying Dany is told repeatedly who she is:

Quote

… mother of dragons … came a voice, part whisper and part moan … dragons … dragons … dragons … other voices echoed in the gloom.

… mother of dragons … child of three …

.… mother of dragons … child of storm …

... mother of dragons, daughter of death …

... mother of dragons, slayer of lies …

... mother of dragons, bride of fire …

Quote

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.

I think the answer is simple.  Quaithe is trying to get Dany to go to Asshai to fulfill Dany’s role as Mother of Dragons.  She wants Dany to go to Asshai and hatch dragons.  Lots and lots of dragons.

[LynnS]

To touch the light, she has to go back to the crones at Vaes Dothrak and pass beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains. 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

The wild stallion's heart was all muscle, and Dany had to worry it with her teeth and chew each mouthful a long time. No steel was permitted within the sacred confines of Vaes Dothrak, beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains; she had to rip the heart apart with teeth and nails. Her stomach roiled and heaved, yet she kept on, her face smeared with the heartsblood that sometimes seemed to explode against her lips.

I suspect this is tied to a vision in the HoU:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .