Why wasn't Marge betrothed to anybody?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So Margery is unless I'm mistaken, around 16 years old by the time of ACOK and ASOS. So the question is, why wasn't she betrothed to anybody by the start of the series? Not married, clearly Olenna and Mace care enough about her not to push her into a very early marriage, with all the potential trauma and risks that would entail, but why not betrothed? Was there some conspiracy/plot going on with that?

[frenin]

They would expecting a royalty, by that any not engaged Baratheon, to come and get her.

Until Robert decided to bethroth Sansa with his heir, bethrothing Margaery would've been a mistake. From that you have 6 months and then war.

[Trigger Warning]

Renly was scheming to make her Robert's mistress, most likely with Tyrell approval. 

[Megorova]

I think that Tyrells and Redwynes are secret supporters of Blackfyres. Olenna is a daughter of Runceford Redwyne. And Illyrio in his mansion had a cask of wine from Runceford's private stock.

During Robert's Rebellion, when Robert was fighting at Ashford against Randyll Tarly, Mace Tyrell with his troops arrived there when the battle was nearly over and it was obvious that Robert will lose. I think that if Robert was winning, then Tyrells would have joined his side in Rebellion. It's not that they were really supporting Aerys or were willing to support Baratheons, the thing with them is that they conspired with Varys, who is a Blackfyre, to cause a dawnfall of Targaryens and to help Varys to seize Iron Throne.

Prior Tournament at Harrenhal Varys planned to cause a civil war between supporters of Aerys and supporters of Rhaegar, and when one of them would have died and 7K's troops would have been weakened by war, Varys planned that Westeros will be invaded by Golden Company. Though because Rhaegar spoiled his plans and caused Robert's Rebellion, by the end of which 7K were strongly united thru political marriages, so the outcome of this civil war was unfavorable for the outside invasion, thus Varys had to postpone his plans.

While it was unclear yet what will be the Rebellion's outcome, and whether 7K will be ripe for the taking by Blackfyres when the Rebellion will end, Tyrells were holding back from active participation in battles. Instead they went and sieged Storm's End, even though it was useless, because Robert already took from there supplies and people that he used thru the war. My guess is that if the Rebellion ended with slightly different outcome, then the Redwyne fleet would have brought Golden Company from Essos, and their invasion would have started from Stormlands, which would have been easy, because all combatants from Stormlands were away fighting for Robert. And then Tyrell army would have joined Golden Company and together they would have attacked King's Landing. Tyrells were keeping their troops out of the war in case if Varys would have decided that the situation is favourable for the invasion by Blackfyres.

It seems likely that Tyrells and Redwynes were willing to collaborate with Varys, and in exchange for their help he promised them a marriage between a Blackfyre who will become next ruler of 7K and a member of House Tyrell/or Redwyne. Thus Margaery wasn't betrothed with anyone because Tyrells were saving her for fAegon. When he would have became the King, she would have became the Queen of 7K. Though because Varys didn't had specific timeline for when Blackfyres will become rules of 7K, or even when Golden Company will invade Westeros, Tyrells got tired of waiting.

And then they got an idea that they could use a different path that will lead them to Iron Throne. Margaery was going to become the Queen by getting married with Robert. When that plan fell apart, Littlefinger, who in the past was one of Varys' agents, and thus knew that in Varys' plan for 7K's invasion Tyrells will play an important role, he decided to use them in his own plans. Thus he arranged that marriage between Margaery and Joffrey, and because Margaery already became the Queen, there is no more reason for Tyrells to give their support to fAegon. That way Littlefinger eliminated Tyrells from the list of Blackfyre-supporters.

[Lord Lannister]

It's pretty clear the Tyrells had in mind a high match for her from the beginning. They wanted her to be a queen.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Prior Tournament at Harrenhal Varys planned to cause a civil war between supporters of Aerys and supporters of Rhaegar, and when one of them would have died and 7K's troops would have been weakened by war, Varys planned that Westeros will be invaded by Golden Company. Though because Rhaegar spoiled his plans and caused Robert's Rebellion, by the end of which 7K were strongly united thru political marriages, so the outcome of this civil war was unfavorable for the outside invasion, thus Varys had to postpone his plans.

Mate with what prince? FAegon can't really invade when he's either a toddler, an embryo or a glint in Ilyrio's eyes

[Daena the Defiant]

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Margery is unless I'm mistaken, around 16 years old by the time of ACOK and ASOS. So the question is, why wasn't she betrothed to anybody by the start of the series? Not married, clearly Olenna and Mace care enough about her not to push her into a very early marriage, with all the potential trauma and risks that would entail, but why not betrothed? Was there some conspiracy/plot going on with that?

Way, way back in GOT , Tyrell Co. was trying to entice Robert into marrying her (which would require setting aside Cersei)    They obviously had their eyes set very high. 

[Megorova]

21 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate with what prince? FAegon can't really invade when he's either a toddler, an embryo or a glint in Ilyrio's eyes

I think that Varys and Serra are siblings and Blackfyres. Though, because Varys is an eunuch, Golden Company refused to follow him. Though they were willing to follow Serra's son, when Serra will give birth to a child, and that child will grow up. They were not in a hurry to immediately invade Westeros, because they got settled in Essos since 196, so they were willing to wait a couple of decades for a new Blackfyre-leader. Varys and GC planned to conquir Westeros for Serra' unborn child/children. And Varys made an agreement with Tyrells/Redwynes that Serra's child will marry with a Tyrell, unborn Blackfyre + unborn Tyrell. Probably when they were negotiating they agreed that whatever will be Serra's child, a boy or a girl, he or she will marry with one of Tyrells (of corresponding age and gender), and when that Blackfyre will become the King or the Queen, then his/hers spouse will be the ruler's consort, and thus also a ruler of 7K, and their common child in the future also will become the ruler of 7K.

It's like when two friends, who are not ever married yet, agree in the future to marry their children, when they will have children. It's a preliminary agreement.

Or could be that GC were willing to follow Serra, even though she was a woman. So when Varys went to Westeros, he was going to prepare political ground for GC's invasion and Serra becoming the Queen of 7K. Though because of the reasons that I wrote about in the previous post, after Robert's Rebellion conditions were unfavorable for GC's invasion, thus it was postponed, and while GC waited for Varys to work his magic, Serra unexpectedly died. And GC demanded from Varys to find for them a new carrier of Blackfyre genes. Thus Varys lured Barristan into a trap, and Jeyne Swann (who is bloodrelated to Blackfyres thru Johanna Swann and her daughter Larra Rogare) gave him a love potion, seduced him, and got pregnant. Jeyne is Septa Lemore, and she is fAegon's mother, and the Perfumed Seneschal (because her ancestor, Johanna Swann, was working at the Perfumed Garden). While Barristan Selmy's mother is Aenys Blackfyre's daughter, and GC knew about Barri's origin. The unnamed septa that was escorting Jeyne thru Kingswood, was Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour. She prepared that love potion using which Jeyne seduced Barristan. There was hints about this scenario given in "The Sworn Sword" novel, and thru parallel in which Sybell Spicer prepared a love potion that Jeyne Westerling gave to Robb Stark (their names are clues - Sybell Spicer/Shiera Seastar, Jeyne Westerling/Jeyne Swann, Robb Stark/ Barristan Selmy).

In The World book the name of Larra Rogare's mother wasn't revealed. In the White Book in Jaime's entry it's written there that his parents are Tywin Lannister and Johanna Lannister, but in Barristan's entry his mother's name is absent. In that entry about how Barristan saved Jeyne and her septa from Kingswood Brotherhood the septa's name is also not recorded. Those three "missing" pieces of information are clues, that they are parts of the same mystery. The name of Larra's mother isn't revealed, because she's a matriarch of House Blackfyre, and she's a Swann, and there was Jeyne Swann who had an encounter with Barristan at about that time when Elia's Aegon was conceived at King's Landing and a comet was passing above the city and above the Kingswood, and now there's Balon Swann who participated in a Tournament (which is a parallel to Tournament at Whitewalls from The Mystery Knight novel, in which supporters of Blackfyres were using that tournament as a cover for their gathering, while preparing for the Second Blackfyre Rebellion); and Barristan's mother's name wasn't revealed because she's a Blackfyre; and the septa's name wasn't mention because she wasn't a real person, she was a shadow-glamour persona, like Maynard Plumm in The Mystery Knight, who was actually Bloodraven.

Varys' original plan to marry future Blackfyre to future Tyrell wasn't specifically about fAegon and Margaery, it was about aquiring military support of Tyrells in exchange for a promise of a future marriage between their Houses.

[Bernie Mac]

She's 14 in AGOT, her older brother is the 16-year-old Loras. There is no reason why she should be betrothed at that age.

 

But it seems pretty clear that Highgarden were hoping that she could be used to seduce the King and gain influence for their House either as his paramour or second wife.

The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen.

If not, they would have married her to someone else, but at that age it is hardly shocking that she had not yet been married.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

On 10/11/2020 at 5:00 AM, Trigger Warning said:

Renly was scheming to make her Robert's mistress, most likely with Tyrell approval. 

He wanted to make her his Queen and get rid of Cersei and the Lannisters.

[Trigger Warning]

31 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He wanted to make her his Queen and get rid of Cersei and the Lannisters.

Sure but I doubt they'd get that far without her being his mistress first. 

[Lee-Sensei]

6 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

Sure but I doubt they'd get that far without her being his mistress first. 

Ah. I see. Fair enough.

To answer the OP, Margaery was unmarried, because they wanted her to be a Queen. They tried to get Robert, then after he died they tried crowning Renly and when he died they married her off to Joffrey. Joffrey was a little shit so they killed him off and married him to the more gentle, Tommen.

[John Suburbs]

On 10/11/2020 at 4:38 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Margery is unless I'm mistaken, around 16 years old by the time of ACOK and ASOS. So the question is, why wasn't she betrothed to anybody by the start of the series? Not married, clearly Olenna and Mace care enough about her not to push her into a very early marriage, with all the potential trauma and risks that would entail, but why not betrothed? Was there some conspiracy/plot going on with that?

Margaery's purpose from the start was to become queen. Look at the event parallels at that time:

Willas Tyrell, born between 269-276

Garlan Tyrell, 277

Aerys starts shopping for a bride for Rheagar, 278

Rhaegar marries Elia: 280

Rhaenys Targaryen, 280

Aegon Targaryen, 281

Loras Tyrell, 282

Margaery Tyrell, 283

So Mace and Allerie had two sons by 277 (with Willas more likely born in the latter range, probably 275 or 276, since Allerie would have only been 12 in 269), and then no children for five years until Loras in 282 and then Margaery in 283. This is within the two years of Aegon's birth.

So it doesn't take a whole lot of speculation to see what happened here: Mace and Allerie, probably at Olenna's urging, held off having any more children after 277 when word got around that Rhaegar would soon wed. Then pretty much on queue, out pop two children closely following the birth of the princess and the prince. If you want to marry into royalty, of course, you want your daughter to be a year or two younger than the crown prince -- and then it wouldn't hurt to give her a name that has the same unusual phoneme found in most other Targeryen names.

 

[Daena the Defiant]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Ah. I see. Fair enough.

To answer the OP, Margaery was unmarried, because they wanted her to be a Queen. They tried to get Robert, then after he died they tried crowning Renly and when he died they married her off to Joffrey. Joffrey was a little shit so they killed him off and married him to the more gentle, Tommen.

And just to piggy-back off of your post, many people seem to miss the point of Margaery as Queen from a Tyrell perspective. The Tyrells are not desirous of having Margaery as queen because of the power she will have in her own right (not that much, she won't set policy or make appointments, etc... although she might be able to use her influence to send favors and perks to her family members).

They want a Tyrell as queen consort because her children will be the future heirs to the Iron Throne.   That's why they keep pimping her out.  

[Lee-Sensei]

58 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

And just to piggy-back off of your post, many people seem to miss the point of Margaery as Queen from a Tyrell perspective. The Tyrells are not desirous of having Margaery as queen because of the power she will have in her own right (not that much, she won't set policy or make appointments, etc... although she might be able to use her influence to send favors and perks to her family members).

They want a Tyrell as queen consort because her children will be the future heirs to the Iron Throne.   That's why they keep pimping her out.  

Yes. In addition to that, it seems that most of the time the Kings in-laws, get chubby appointments. Stannis’ court is full of Florents and when Renly crowns himself, he gives positions to Mace Tyrell and his bannermen. They’d also get the prestige that comes with marrying into royalty. The Tyrells are viewed by many snobby nobles as upjumped stewards. If Mace Tyrells daughter was the Queen and his grand children were Princes and Princesses, they’d get a lot more respect from the older families.

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes. In addition to that, it seems that most of the time the Kings in-laws, get chubby appointments. Stannis’ court is full of Florents and when Renly crowns himself, he gives positions to Mace Tyrell and his bannermen. They’d also get the prestige that comes with marrying into royalty. The Tyrells are viewed by many snobby nobles as upjumped stewards. If Mace Tyrells daughter was the Queen and his grand children were Princes and Princesses, they’d get a lot more respect from the older families.

I don't know about that; the Arryns and Tullys didn't get anything for supporting Robert outside of Jon Arryn becoming Hand of the King.

[Angel Eyes]

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

She's 14 in AGOT, her older brother is the 16-year-old Loras. There is no reason why she should be betrothed at that age.

 

But it seems pretty clear that Highgarden were hoping that she could be used to seduce the King and gain influence for their House either as his paramour or second wife.

The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen.

If not, they would have married her to someone else, but at that age it is hardly shocking that she had not yet been married.

 

I don't think that was a good idea on Renly/the Tyrells' end.

• Remember what happened to some of Aegon IV's mistresses once he tires of them? A mistress' life isn't a good one.
  • Magette was beaten to death by her husband when she went home after Aegon tired of her
  • Bethany Bracken got distressed enough by Aegon to turn to one of his Kingsguard; when Aegon found out he put her to death (plus the Kingsguard)
• Even if there was a plan to set Cersei aside and marry Margaery, getting Tywin Lannister angry by setting aside Cersei is a poor idea for a couple reasons
  • Tywin reacts poorly to slights. Everyone and their mother knows that.
  • Robert owes money to Tywin; Tywin could default on Robert's debts
  • Only a fanatic like Baelor the Blessed sets aside their wife; not even Aerys I set his wife aside as he obsessed with books, nor Aerys II, not even Aegon IV
• If the plan was to make Margaery Robert's wife, what's stopping Joffrey from killing his half-siblings?
• A 20+ year gap between bride and groom typically means that the couple is not on the same page emotionally; Jon Arryn's age was one of the factors as to why his marriage to Lysa Tully went poorly and led to his death.

[Angel Eyes]

On 10/11/2020 at 7:19 PM, Daena the Defiant said:

Way, way back in GOT , Tyrell Co. was trying to entice Robert into marrying her (which would require setting aside Cersei)    They obviously had their eyes set very high. 

And they were trying to get Robert's eyes lower.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I don't know about that; the Arryns and Tullys didn't get anything for supporting Robert outside of Jon Arryn becoming Hand of the King.

The Arryns and Tullys weren’t married into his family and Jon still became Hand of the King. Later it was Ned. Ned doesn’t consider the Lannisters part of the rebel alliance against the Mad King and he has a fair point. Tywin ignored both sides calls for aid and sat it out. He only chose to join them after the war has been basically won. Even then, Illyn Payne was made the Kings justice and he took on two Lannisters as his squires.

 

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I don't think that was a good idea on Renly/the Tyrells' end.

• Remember what happened to some of Aegon IV's mistresses once he tires of them? A mistress' life isn't a good one.
  • Magette was beaten to death by her husband when she went home after Aegon tired of her
  • Bethany Bracken got distressed enough by Aegon to turn to one of his Kingsguard; when Aegon found out he put her to death (plus the Kingsguard)
• Even if there was a plan to set Cersei aside and marry Margaery, getting Tywin Lannister angry by setting aside Cersei is a poor idea for a couple reasons
  • Tywin reacts poorly to slights. Everyone and their mother knows that.
  • Robert owes money to Tywin; Tywin could default on Robert's debts
  • Only a fanatic like Baelor the Blessed sets aside their wife; not even Aerys I set his wife aside as he obsessed with books, nor Aerys II, not even Aegon IV
• If the plan was to make Margaery Robert's wife, what's stopping Joffrey from killing his half-siblings?
• A 20+ year gap between bride and groom typically means that the couple is not on the same page emotionally; Jon Arryn's age was one of the factors as to why his marriage to Lysa Tully went poorly and led to his death.

Robert isn’t Aegon and he hates Cersei (and the feeling is mutual). I imagine that he’d like Margaery more, since she’s nowhere near as spiteful as Cersei is.

Robert owes money to a lot of people, including the Tyrells. But the Iron Banks envoy to Stannis indicates that they were receiving timely payments. I don’t see why that would change if Cersei was set aside.

Baelor set his wife aside out of religious fanaticism. Robert would set his wife aside, because they hate each other. At least, that seemed to be Renly and Loras’ idea.

Robert and Cersei aren’t on the same page emotionally anyways and the age gap between Jon Arryn and Lysa was twice as large as the one between Robert and Margaery.

I don’t know that he’d agree to it, but there are arguments for why it would be better to set her aside. And that’s something that a Cersei thinks is likely to happen in one of the early chapters of AGOT.

My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

Cersei viewed it as a credible threat.

[R2D]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

Cersei viewed it as a credible threat.

“He was a wretched king … vain, drunken, lecherous … he would have set your sister aside, his own queen … please … Renly was plotting to bring the Highgarden maid to court, to entice his brother … it is the gods’ own truth …”

“And what was Lord Arryn plotting?”

“He knew,” Pycelle said. “About … about …”

“I know what he knew about,” snapped Tyrion, who was not anxious for Shagga and Timett to know as well.

(A Clash of Kings, Tyrion VI)

Pycelle too. It's also worth noting Stannis and Catelyn don't think the idea is ridiculous when its brought up at the parley.

…By that time, the queen’s absence had been noticed, and His Grace would oft find himself seated next to some lissome maid or handsome widow at feasts, or riding beside them when hawking or hunting, but he took no notice of any of them. At Bandallon, when Lord Blackbar’s youngest daughter was so bold as to seat herself in his lap and attempt to feed him a grape, he brushed her hand aside and said, “Forgive me, but I have a queen, and no taste for paramours.”

(Fire and Blood, Jaeherys and Alysanne: The Long Reign)

Women were throwing themselves at Jaeherys I. Being a King's mistress/queen is seen as highly advantageous. In medieval times the husband's looks/disposition mattered less than the power and wealth he could offer to the bride. 

As for the age gap, Rhaenys, 16 and Corlys Velaryon, 37 had the exact same age gap and they had a happy marriage. Margaery would already be 15 by the time she went to court according to the most accurate timeline, and Robert was 36 when he died. Jon Arryn was practically an old man when he and Lysa married. We've seen that Robert can treat women who are not Cersei well.

As for Joffrey, "setting aside" Cersei would mean sending her away, maybe to Casterly Rock. The Tyrells would be his in-laws and Robert still has years to live, so time enough to win him over to their side.