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Alyn Oakenfist

Will Aegon's identity ever be known for sure?

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4 hours ago, Eliscat said:

This may be a spoiler so look out

 

if the HBO show is correct they told us who a hidden AT is

The last words to Varys....”It was me.”

And it fits the book

Olenna?

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3 hours ago, Kierria said:

We know who he isn't.  He's a blackfyre

Based on what? I'll (Ulysses S) grant you that his identity is suspicious, nu there is no definitive proof either way. So how come "we know"?

Also who's we?

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12 hours ago, Eliscat said:

Tyrion takes hold of Varys hand and says, “ it was me”. The audience can interpret it as they like.

But Tyrion is much older

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5 hours ago, Eliscat said:

He was born in 273 or 272 I can’t recall 

and Aegon was born in 282. Making Tyrion 9 years older.

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 In the greater political plot it doesn't make any difference and in many ways I would prefer if we never knew for sure. Martin seems committed in revealing it to us by including him in HotU prophecy not only naming him the mummer's dragon, but placing him under the heading "slayer of lies". His true identity also seems necessary to place context on Varys's and Illyrio's motivations.

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9 hours ago, Eliscat said:

I just posted a thread Prickly pickle

ohhh

 

6 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 In the greater political plot it doesn't make any difference and in many ways I would prefer if we never knew for sure. Martin seems committed in revealing it to us by including him in HotU prophecy not only naming him the mummer's dragon, but placing him under the heading "slayer of lies". His true identity also seems necessary to place context on Varys's and Illyrio's motivations.

I both agree and disagree. I posted a thread a few months back about how I think it'll never be revealed (and how I would like that) and someone told me that all it meant was that if he never gets revealed as an imposter I would still claim him to be one. The thing is, Martin has given us reasons to suspect him, and even characters in the series wonder is he's the real thing. I think the point GRRM is making with him is that legitimacy doesn't matter at all, but he couldn't make that point without planting seeds for him being a fake. So that's why the 'mummer's dragon' and such are in the story, at least in my opinion. Also, we've been told over and over not to trust in prophecy. For all we know, the mummer's dragon is just Quaithe/the undying trying to cause a split between Dany and Aegon. After all, it's unlikely that when Dany finds out about Aegon, she won't think about that prophecy.

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16 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I both agree and disagree. I posted a thread a few months back about how I think it'll never be revealed (and how I would like that) and someone told me that all it meant was that if he never gets revealed as an imposter I would still claim him to be one. The thing is, Martin has given us reasons to suspect him, and even characters in the series wonder is he's the real thing. I think the point GRRM is making with him is that legitimacy doesn't matter at all, but he couldn't make that point without planting seeds for him being a fake. So that's why the 'mummer's dragon' and such are in the story, at least in my opinion. Also, we've been told over and over not to trust in prophecy. For all we know, the mummer's dragon is just Quaithe/the undying trying to cause a split between Dany and Aegon. After all, it's unlikely that when Dany finds out about Aegon, she won't think about that prophecy.

I mostly agree, except for the underlined part. Legitimacy matters. A lot. The point of Aegon however is to show that legitimacy comes not from divine right/blood but from the people, something that took the Brits until the Civil War to state outright.

Power resides where men believe it resides like Varys said.

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1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Power resides where men believe it resides like Varys said.

I was actually going to reply this until I read you already wrote it. Yes. We are saying the same thing. You are saying it more clearly perhaps.

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Posted (edited)
On 10/11/2020 at 12:27 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I personally think that we as the audience will be given enough hints to definitely say he was a Blackfyre (kinda like R+L=J), but that Westeros will always be in doubt about it, helping in the general dissolution of feudalism by the mistrust this will create in the institution of feudalistic monarchy. But what do you think?

Hopefully, neither R+L=J nor Aegon Blackfyre will be spelled out literally. 

If it must be done, let's hope it is not revealed by Illyrio... "I am your father" has been done before. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hopefully, neither R+L=J nor Aegon Blackfyre will be spelled out literally. 

Please no. Especially RLJ. I've had my fill of <insert some guy's name here> + Lyanna = Jon. 

The road for Aegon goes through Lemore. Her real identity has been kept back for a reason.

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On 1/6/2021 at 3:56 PM, CamiloRP said:

ohhh

 

I both agree and disagree. I posted a thread a few months back about how I think it'll never be revealed (and how I would like that) and someone told me that all it meant was that if he never gets revealed as an imposter I would still claim him to be one. The thing is, Martin has given us reasons to suspect him, and even characters in the series wonder is he's the real thing. I think the point GRRM is making with him is that legitimacy doesn't matter at all, but he couldn't make that point without planting seeds for him being a fake. So that's why the 'mummer's dragon' and such are in the story, at least in my opinion. Also, we've been told over and over not to trust in prophecy. For all we know, the mummer's dragon is just Quaithe/the undying trying to cause a split between Dany and Aegon. After all, it's unlikely that when Dany finds out about Aegon, she won't think about that prophecy.

Well, legitimacy obviously does matter otherwise Varys would not have been trying to pass him off/establish him as Rhaeghar's heir. He is ultimately Varys's proof of concept of power being a shadow on the wall, that legitimacy can be constructed. Narratively it would be better if he were false, but it would be beside the point in how it would play out. 

In terms of how Martin was aiming to present him, I think you have it backwards. After all he is supposed to be a character who we have been told has died years ago and has already established the concept of impostors with Jeyne Poole. He still plants little hints that would make us think, that he just might be the real deal.

The depiction of him as the mummer's dragon is demonstrably true as he is Varys's creation, regardless of whethe rhe is Rhaegar's son or not. Granted it makes no sense for the Undying to be giving Dany visions while eating her, but that does change the fact that some of them have already come to pass. Melisandre demonstrates why the characters or we as readers shouldn't trust visions, but it is not because they are false.

Lastly, the wedge between Dany and Aegon is inherent and stems from the fact that they have confllicting claims and that Varys and Illyrio meant for Dany at best to be a prop for Aegon. Tyrion drove that home by planting the idea in Aegon to go west. The prophecy is way down in the list of things that set them apart.

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On 1/8/2021 at 1:49 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The road for Aegon goes through Lemore. Her real identity has been kept back for a reason.

Or maybe GRRM is just fucking with us and giving us a Red Herring

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3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Or maybe GRRM is just fucking with us and giving us a Red Herring

I'm not sure who the red herring is, if you mean it's Septa Lemore, but I definitely think that Aegon is the red herring for another character. 

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To reveal true Aegons identity, if it turns out to be false, can only Varys or Illyrio. And, for obvious reasons, they won't do that. There also possibility of Deus ex machina, when Dany would see incredible detailed dragon vision, where all the fact and evidence againt Aegon will be laid out, but I not sure that G. R.R. Martin will go that route.  

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