Did Balon make a single smart decision ever?

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 10/12/2020 at 8:28 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Idk about that. Ashas a captain with a voice at the kingsmoot, thats not Westeros like

There are def. exceptions. Asha does not conform that is for sure. Would she have been all that if Theon wasn't sent off North you reckon?

Are there any other examples of female Ironborn who take on such roles?

[Gingin]

In ACOK:

Quote

There were women on the Iron Islands—not many, but a few—who crewed the longships along with their men, and it was said that salt and sea changed them, gave them a man's appetites. 

Hagen’s daughter is a fearless warrior and crew member. Not a captain, though.

Asha was allowed to play with axes when she was a little girl, she wasn’t an average lady. Probably she would have been a captain even if Theon wasn’t sent to Winterfell.

 

Anyway, maybe we can interpret Balon’s prayer as an act of Ironborn mercy, i.e. fatherly love à la Ironborn? “Better have my last son dead than weakling as the bad wolves”? I mean, he never liked kinslaying and he was a very proud man. I don’t know, I admit I’m torn.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

3 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

There are def. exceptions. Asha does not conform that is for sure. Would she have been all that if Theon wasn't sent off North you reckon?

Are there any other examples of female Ironborn who take on such roles?

I think that there are a handful, but Asha has her position in large part, because Theons two oldest sons were dead and Theon was a hostage. When Balon assembles his Captains to lay out their plan of attach, he calls Asha and Theon his sons.

 “Victarion,” Lord Balon said to his brother, “the main thrust shall fall to you. When my sons have struck their blows, Winterfell must respond.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

There are def. exceptions. Asha does not conform that is for sure. Would she have been all that if Theon wasn't sent off North you reckon?

Hell no. As noted above, the little princess now has to act like the Reavers heir. But still, that spunk inside Asha is who she is, so therell always be that conniving warrior that we know as Greyjoy inside of her even if her brothers didnt meet with tragedy.

But can we imagine Ned allowing Sansa or Arya to lead major battles, where the gentle sex is fighting like krakens? Doubtful. Same with Margery, Cersei, Catelyn, etc.

We even see with Cat, she was raised to be Hosters heir, being much older then her baby brother. So she did learn to lead, dabble with constituents, etc. But not to read battleplans or learn to play catch with axes.

[Walda]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:29 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

take 6 hostages with him back to Pyke? 5 of them being children?

Ok, so Bran and Rickon and the Walders are four ... are the other two Jojen and Meera?

[Back door hodor]

On 10/11/2020 at 8:23 PM, Arthur Peres said:

She isn't. her gender is a major problem for Westeros, and a bigger one for the IB. But even if we put that aside, she still inferior to Theon.

Unlike Asha that went along with Balon stupid plan to invade the North, Theon told on his face what would happen later on.

Theon than commits the great mistake of growing to attached to Winterfell, refused to leave the castle and ended up as a hostage of a maniac. Asha later on makes the same mistake at Deepwood Motte, just like Theon she refuses to leave the castle, even though the IB left the north, and ends up as hostage at the hands of Stannis. 

And even at the Kingsmoot the only thing Asha does is once again propose the deal Theon and Robb offered and she together with Balon turned off. But now there is no goodwill among the parts, the North if far weaker and the IT if far stronger than early on.

Everything Asha does is a lesser version of what Theon did.

This is an excellent analysis....i find my self agreeing with your, and I don't particularly  care for Theon

[Lee-Sensei]

42 minutes ago, Walda said:

Ok, so Bran and Rickon and the Walders are four ... are the other two Jojen and Meera?

Yes. Meera and Jojen are the other two.

[Walda]

On 10/16/2020 at 4:56 AM, Hugorfonics said:

But not to read battleplans

Quote

“Mother, what are we going to do? I brought this whole army together, eighteen thousand men, but I don’t … I’m not certain"...

“... If he comes so far, but no one thinks he will,” Robb said. ..."We need to march south to meet him.”

The very idea of it chilled Catelyn to the bone. What chance would a fifteen-year-old boy have against seasoned battle commanders like Jaime and Tywin Lannister? “Is that wise?...Marching is all very well,” she said to her son, “but where, and to what purpose? What do you mean to do?”
Robb hesitated... “The Greatjon thinks ...we should take the battle to Lord Tywin ...but the Glovers and the Karstarks feel we’d be wiser to go around his army … I’m not certain …”

...“I’ll ask you again. What do you mean to do?”

...Robb drew a map across the table, a ragged piece of old leather covered with lines of faded paint.

..."look, if we try to swing around Lord Tywin’s host, we take the risk of being caught between him and the Kingslayer, and if we attack him … by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won’t matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won’t be so easily surprised."

“Good,” she said. She could hear echoes of Ned in his voice, as he sat there, puzzling over the map. “Tell me more.”

“I’d leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin,...march the rest down the causeway,...below the Neck, I’d split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins.” He pointed. “When Lord Tywin gets word that we’ve come south, he’ll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun.” Robb sat back, not quite daring to smile, but pleased with himself and hungry for her praise.
Catelyn frowned down at the map. “You’d put a river between the two parts of your army.”
“And between Jaime and Lord Tywin,” he said eagerly. The smile came at last. “There’s no crossing on the Green Fork above the ruby ford, where Robert won his crown. Not until the Twins, all the way up here, and Lord Frey controls that bridge. He’s your father’s bannerman, isn’t that so?”
The Late Lord Frey, Catelyn thought. “He is,” she admitted, “but my father has never trusted him. Nor should you.”
“I won’t,” Robb promised. “What do you think?”

(AGoT Ch55 Catelyn VIII)

Catelyn can read a battle plan. Unlike Robb, she has some understanding of the motives and personalities they are dealing with.

Which prooved handy when it came to crossing the Green Fork. If it was up to Robb and his Northmen, Lord Frey would have funneled the lot of them back down to the Ruby Ford before they found some way to storm his castle and lay it to waste. Compare and contrast Robb and his Northern commanders to Catelyn

Quote

“Damn the man,” Robb swore. “If the old fool does not relent and let me cross, he’ll leave me no choice but to storm his walls. I’ll pull the Twins down around his ears if I have to, we’ll see how well he likes that!”

...

One glance was sufficient to tell Catelyn that the castle would not be taken by storm. The battlements bristled with spears and swords and scorpions, there was an archer at every crenel and arrow slit, the drawbridge was up, the portcullis down, the gates closed and barred.

The Greatjon began to curse and swear as soon as he saw what awaited them. Lord Rickard Karstark glowered in silence. “That cannot be assaulted, my lords,” Roose Bolton announced.

“Nor can we take it by siege, without an army on the far bank to invest the other castle,” Helman Tallhart said gloomily.

...

“My lord father would be most honored if you would share meat and mead with him in the castle and explain your purpose here.”

His words crashed among the lords bannermen like a great stone from a catapult. Not one of them approved. They cursed, argued, shouted down each other.

(AGoT Ch59 Catelyn IX)

To stop Robb's bannerlords unhelpfully insulting the honor of house Frey in front of its emissaries, Catelyn steps forward and offers to explain their purpose and negotiate their 'toll' with Lord Frey. 

Quote

Why are you here?”
“To ask you to open your gates, my lord,” Catelyn replied politely. “My son and his lords bannermen are most anxious to cross the river and be on their way.”
“To Riverrun?” He sniggered. “Oh, no need to tell me, no need. I’m not blind yet. The old man can still read a map.”
“To Riverrun,” Catelyn confirmed.

(AGoT Ch59 Catelyn IX)

Lord Frey was pretty good at reading battle plans too.

Most of the catastrophic errors in the Stark campaign were made by Catelyn's stupid unscrupulous siblings, or by Robb, when he laid plans without recourse to her or Brynden Blackfish. And it was Catelyn that brought the Blackfish into the campain. 

Of course, every character is righteous from their own point of view, and objectively, battle was not the best way to keep Ned safe, to find out who put a hit on Bran, to get her daughters back, to discover who killed Jon Arryn. But also objectively, the battles Catelyn planned worked out alright for the most part. 

Like the Impnapping - a dumb idea, but executed admirably.

Quote

All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn.

(AGoT Ch31 Tyrion IV)

Agreeing to arm her Lannister enemies in the fight against the Mountain Clans was also a brilliant idea - she got rid of Jyck, the best fighter Tyrion had, at the first salvo, and Morrec, his only other servant, in the second. Their deaths laid heavy on her conscience, but nobody else accused her for making them martyrs to the wildlings, and Tyrion (implausibly) saved her life. 

Stannis and Renly should have listened to her. Her own host should have listened to her when she later realised the best she could do was sue for peace with Tyrion.

But Umber and Karstark had come south for glory and lands and plunder, Theon wanted to be Prince of Casterley Rock, Bolton wanted to ensure the Hornwoods, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Manderleys, Umbers, Karstarks, Flints, Glovers and Starks never returned north to reclaim their lost lands from him and Ramsey.

Robb never had his mother's understanding of the motives and strategic importance of his allies in the North and the Riverlands. She could remember Balon's rebellion, and Robert's, she knew the riverlords. He couldn't reasonably be expected to.

Catelyn's battle plans are cannier than most of her opponents. If Lady Stoneheart still has the cunning of Lady Stark in battle, the King (or Queen) on the Iron Throne best not dismiss the expanding Brotherhood Without Banners as a rump of outlaws that a few good knights can tidy up at their leisure.

[Arthur Peres]

On 10/21/2020 at 4:09 AM, Walda said:

Catelyn can read a battle plan. Unlike Robb, she has some understanding of the motives and personalities they are dealing with.

She really can't, for instance.

When present during Renly and Stannis talk, she criticize Renly for not bringing his entiry force against the pitful force that Stannis had, she also is critical of "Robert's boldness" and that he needed Ned, even though Robert by all the martial man in the realm is not contested. 

On 10/21/2020 at 4:09 AM, Walda said:

Which prooved handy when it came to crossing the Green Fork. If it was up to Robb and his Northmen, Lord Frey would have funneled the lot of them back down to the Ruby Ford before they found some way to storm his castle and lay it to waste. Compare and contrast Robb and his Northern commanders to Catelyn

 

She understood  Walder, this does not make her a specialist in strategy, Robb already had the plan formed before she even get to MC. The only flaw on his plan, is expecting good will of Walder, based purely on his alligiance and honor, and since he does not know the man, is not that outrageous... Catelyn also fails to read people, for example she trusted Jaime.

On 10/21/2020 at 4:09 AM, Walda said:

Catelyn can read a battle plan. Unlike Robb, she has some understanding of the motives and personalities they are dealing with.

Being rude is not a big deal. Walder is pretty rude towards her, and she herself also threatned the Lord Frey with empty threats, only to be smacked back...

“If you were strong enough to climb your own battlements, Lord Frey, you would see that my son has twenty thousand men outside your walls.”

“They’ll be twenty thousand fresh corpses when Lord Tywin gets here,” the old man shot back. “Don’t you try and frighten me, my lady. Your husband’s in some traitor’s cell under the Red Keep, your father’s sick, might be dying, and Jaime Lannister’s got your brother in chains. What do you have that I should fear? That son of yours? I’ll match you son for son, and I’ll still have eighteen when yours are all dead.

She was trained to be the heir of Riverrun for some time and lived there for 20 years, should be no surprise that she understood Walder Frey better than Robb.

On 10/21/2020 at 4:09 AM, Walda said:

Most of the catastrophic errors in the Stark campaign were made by Catelyn's stupid unscrupulous siblings, or by Robb, when he laid plans without recourse to her or Brynden Blackfish. And it was Catelyn that brought the Blackfish into the campain. 

 

Not even close. Ned made the worsts mistakes on the Stark camp, his mistakes are the ones that doomes his family. Edmure also messed up pretty bad, but Catelyn also messed up, she started the hostilities by arresting/kidnaping Tyrion, did not inform either Robb or Ned of such decision and ended up losing the dwarf.

Everyone in the Stark camp messed up at some point, with exeption of maybe the Blackfish.

On 10/21/2020 at 4:09 AM, Walda said:

But also objectively, the battles Catelyn planned worked out alright for the most part. 

Which one?

Ned becoming Hand of the King, backfired hard.

Kidnaping/arresting Tyrion backfired hard

Roose on command of the Northem forces... backfired hard.

Freeing Jaime... backfired hard.

Catelyn gets things right just as much as she gets things wrong.

On 10/21/2020 at 4:09 AM, Walda said:

But Umber and Karstark had come south for glory and lands and plunder, Theon wanted to be Prince of Casterley Rock, Bolton wanted to ensure the Hornwoods, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Manderleys, Umbers, Karstarks, Flints, Glovers and Starks never returned north to reclaim their lost lands from him and Ramsey.

 

They couldn't return, since Moat Callin is taken, and Lysa refuses to let them use Gulltown's port. And we nevr see Umber or Karstark ask for land.

On 10/21/2020 at 4:09 AM, Walda said:

Stannis and Renly should have listened to her. Her own host should have listened to her when she later realised the best she could do was sue for peace with Tyrion.

 

If you think that the northem lords made a blunder by being rude towards the freys, than Catelyn made the same mistake there, She is dealing with two idiots that see themselfs as kings, but she talk to them like she is talking to kids.

Catelyn didn't fail to persued her own camp against a hot headed like Greatjon...Those are the ones that she managed to silence with her speech

“Well, the one is done, and the other forever beyond our reach. I will mourn for Ned until the end of my days, but I must think of the living. I want my daughters back, and the queen holds them still. If I must trade our four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods. I want you safe, Robb, ruling at Winterfell from your father’s seat. I want you to live your life, to kiss a girl and wed a woman and father a son. I want to write an end to this. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband.” The hall was very quiet when Catelyn finished speaking

 the one that counters her and turn the tables is the more rational and competent Blackfish:

“Peace,” said her uncle Brynden. “Peace is sweet, my lady . . . but on what terms? It is no good hammering your sword into a plowshare if you must forge it again on the morrow.”

On 10/21/2020 at 4:09 AM, Walda said:

Robb never had his mother's understanding of the motives and strategic importance of his allies in the North and the Riverlands. She could remember Balon's rebellion, and Robert's, she knew the riverlords. He couldn't reasonably be expected to.

 

Robb does understand the strategical importance and he is very rational about his allies,...this is his mistakes as he failed to see that Balon Greyjoy is many things, but rational is not one of them... as the subject of this topic let's it clear.

And let's not even start to talk about Lysa and reason...

[frenin]

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

She really can't, for instance.

But she can.

 

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

When present during Renly and Stannis talk, she criticize Renly for not bringing his entiry force against the pitful force that Stannis had,

She doesn't really criticize him as she's not saying that his decision of rushing was bad, she would have taken another path.

What she does criticize is Renly outpacing his supply train.

 

Quote

He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind with all his wagons and mules and oxen. He must come to battle soon, or starve.

I find nothing bad in her reasoning.

 

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

she also is critical of "Robert's boldness"

She's not.

 

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

and that he needed Ned, even though Robert by all the martial man in the realm is not contested. 

?? She's saying that Robert's boldness and Ned's calm made for a better team!!!

 

 

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

She understood  Walder, this does not make her a specialist in strategy, Robb already had the plan formed before she even get to MC. The only flaw on his plan, is expecting good will of Walder, based purely on his alligiance and honor, and since he does not know the man, is not that outrageous... Catelyn also fails to read people, for example she trusted Jaime.

She didn't trust Jaime.

 

Quote

I wonder what the High Septon would have to say about the sanctity of oaths sworn while dead drunk, chained to a wall, with a sword pressed to your chest? Not that Jaime was truly concerned about that fat fraud, or the gods he claimed to serve. He remembered the pail Lady Catelyn had kicked over in his cell. A strange woman, to trust her girls to a man with shit for honor. Though she was trusting him as little as she dared. She is putting her hope in Tyrion, not in me. "Perhaps she is not so stupid after all," he said aloud.

 

She trusted Tyrion and she was desperate at the time. I don't think she's a strategist per se anyway. I don't believe is a fair critic to Robb either way. Robb is a isolated 15 year who has never set a foot south of the neck so far we can tell.

That he does not how the Freys or the Lannisters behave is hardly a surprise.

 

 

 

On 10/21/2020 at 9:09 AM, Walda said:

Most of the catastrophic errors in the Stark campaign were made by Catelyn's stupid unscrupulous siblings,

This is simply not true.

Robb made the two greatest mistakes, Theon and Jeyne. Cat made the last one. Freeing Jaime.

I don't really know what Edmure did or Lysa who didn't even participate in th war.

 

 

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Ned becoming Hand of the King, backfired hard.

Cause of Ned, not because it was a bad idea. 

 

 

On 10/21/2020 at 9:09 AM, Walda said:

But Umber and Karstark had come south for glory and lands and plunder, Theon wanted to be Prince of Casterley Rock, Bolton wanted to ensure the Hornwoods, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Manderleys, Umbers, Karstarks, Flints, Glovers and Starks never returned north to reclaim their lost lands from him and Ramsey.

I don't think any of this is true.

 

 

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

If you think that the northem lords made a blunder by being rude towards the freys, than Catelyn made the same mistake there, She is dealing with two idiots that see themselfs as kings, but she talk to them like she is talking to kids.

She's pretty much talking to kids at some point and she only talks them that way once and there's nothing she can do there anyway.

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

She doesn't really criticize him as she's not saying that his decision of rushing was bad, she would have taken another path.

What she does criticize is Renly outpacing his supply train.

She says that Renly should bring his whole force, not realizing that Renly aldready had more than 4 times the numbers of Stannis.

How like his brother Robert he was, even in that . . . only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution. Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind with all his wagons and mules and oxen. He must come to battle soon, or starve.

and Renly does not need to bring suplys, he had more than enough man to end Stannis tiny force and once that is done, Storm's End becomes the source of his suplies.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

She didn't trust Jaime.

 

She still send him free with only one guard.... The first thing Jaime does later on is try to break free from Brienne... It was a dumb decision.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Robb made the two greatest mistakes, Theon and Jeyne. Cat made the last one. Freeing Jaime.

 

If you're gonna forgive Catelyn for Jaime because of her emotional state, then you also can't blame Robb for Jeyne, Both were stupid decision.

Theon is only a mistake because Robb thought of Balon as rational. His reason to send him is founded on past events and common goals.

The biggest mistakes made by the Stars were from Ned, that had all the cards on his hand to make a palace coup, but choose not to and ended up as hostage with Sansa.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

She's pretty much talking to kids at some point and she only talks them that way once and there's nothing she can do there anyway.

 

Yes she is, but the northem lords were also talking to cut throat, backstabers, cowards, if the northem lords made a blunder, so did Catelyn.

[BlackLightning]

How did this thread become about Catelyn?

I swear this fandom never misses an opportunity to rag on Catelyn.

War in Westeros was inevitable.
I repeat. War in Westeros was inevitable.

Not only was there the Stark/Lannister feud, there was the Lannister/Martell feud, the Tyrell scheme to replace Cersei Lannister with Margaery Tyrell, Littlefinger's hatred of Ned Stark, Balon Greyjoy's second rebellion, the Iron Throne's mounting debt to the Iron Bank and Mance Rayder's invasion. Oh and let's not forget the invasion of the Others and the Targaryens. Stannis Baratheon was making plans and preparations on Dragonstone before Robert had even gone hunting in the Kingswood. Lysa Arryn had closed the Vale and was hoarding foodstuffs. And only God knows how long Euron had been planning his takeover?

Oh and by the way. Why is that the Tywin Lannister is able to send men into the Riverlands to pillage, rape and burn so quickly? How does he have a army mobilized already? How has he hired a sellsword company and sponsored their trip from Essos to Westeros so quickly?

Like let's be real.

Back to Balon.

Yes, Balon has made a few smart decisions. But most of his decisions were either short-sighted, selfish, outright idiotic or all of the above.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

She says that Renly should bring his whole force, not realizing that Renly aldready had more than 4 times the numbers of Stannis.

No, she offers a different course of action, one safer according to her, but at any rate she's saying that's what  he should've done.

And given that she knows the numbers of each army...

 

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

and Renly does not need to bring suplys, he had more than enough man to end Stannis tiny force and once that is done, Storm's End becomes the source of his suplies.

It's never wise not bringing supplies, you neverknow what will be ahead of you.

 

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

She says that Renly should bring his whole force, not realizing that Renly aldready had more than 4 times the numbers of Stannis.

I don't know what to tell you, you made a point, it's not true. She was never putting her faith in Jaime keeping his word.

 

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

If you're gonna forgive Catelyn for Jaime because of her emotional state, then you also can't blame Robb for Jeyne, Both were stupid decision.

I don't "forgive" either of them. I'm offering context. And at any rate did Robb need  to marry Jeyne himself, looking a fine match for her within his ranks would have been honorable enough.

 

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Theon is only a mistake because Robb thought of Balon as rational. His reason to send him is founded on past events and common goals.

And because Robb made an, rather understandable since he was trusting in someone he viewed as a brother, blunder.

I don't know why you're so harsh with Cat or any Stark for that matter  while ignoring Robb's own fuckups.

 

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Theon is only a mistake because Robb thought of Balon as rational. His reason to send him is founded on past events and common goals.

If you say so...

 

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Yes she is, but the northem lords were also talking to cut throat, backstabers, cowards, if the northem lords made a blunder, so did Catelyn.

Not the same at all, as the Freys had done nothing at that point , but it seems that makes you happy so...

 

 

57 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

How did this thread become about Catelyn?

I only came here to shit on Balon and the thread has nothing to do with Balon.

 

 

[Arthur Peres]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

I only came here to shit on Balon and the thread has nothing to do with Balon.

 

it had on the start... I would even like to read what you have to say on the matter.

 

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't know why you're so harsh with Cat or any Stark for that matter  while ignoring Robb's own fuckups.

 

Robb being my favorite character plays a role in this, I'll admit it.

But the only thing the Jeyne mistake did was change the way of his death, Catelyn mistake with Jaime was the end  of the last hope of them walking away alive from that war, she threw away they last bargain chip.

But I'm way more critical of Edmure and Ned than Catelyn.

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

Not the same at all, as the Freys had done nothing at that point , but it seems that makes you happy so...

 

They were stoping the forces of the northems of relieving Riverrun.

[BlackLightning]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

I only came here to shit on Balon and the thread has nothing to do with Balon.

Yeah

Let me ask you a question: which one of Balon's rebellions was dumber? The first or the second?

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Let me ask you a question: which one of Balon's rebellions was dumber? The first or the second?

I know the question was not for me, but I also like to shit on Balon.

In my opinion was the second one.

In the first he gambled badly on Robert's lack of authority, and like a moron ended up fighting the entire realm on his own, but at the very least he acted upon his own interests.

But in the second, he had the scenario that he wanted on the first rebellion and threw it away, the realm was split and he had a natural ally in Robb,  and instead of helping the only natural ally of his, he attacked Robb, and by sheer stupidity, helped the realm remain united under the Lannisters, he acted against his own long term interests.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

But the only thing the Jeyne mistake did was change the way of his death, Catelyn mistake with Jaime was the end  of the last hope of them walking away alive from that war, she threw away they last bargain chip.

Well, no.  Jeyne Westerling + Jaime Lannister were the end of the last of them walking away alive.  It's not like Tywin could just trap  Robb in the field, the kid was smart and elusive and the Freys were not about to kill Robb who was betrothed to one of their own. Robb still had a sizable army and he was planning to return to the North, from where he would've been virtually untouchable, Even without the Vale and still in  the south, Tywin still believed Robb would last a year to be defeated, a whole lot of things can happen in a year. In a matter of months the Lannisters went from almost being  erradicated to consolidate their power and all their enemies vanquished.

And there always was the Damocle sword pending over the Lannisters' heads that Lysa finally joined him. Robb wast he one making sure that the Freys wanted nothing but bloody retaliation.

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

They were stoping the forces of the northems of relieving Riverrun.

How's that dumb or bad?? Why would they openly help the Starks in a moment the Lannisters seemed to be about to take over everything??

You compare that to whatever the hell Stannis and Renly were doing??

 

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Let me ask you a question: which one of Balon's rebellions was dumber? The first or the second?

The second. The first has the merit of being a calculated risk. And Robert had just won the Robellion, perhaps his new vassals were not that eager to help him. Ignoring the fact that the STABL alliance had enough manpower and resources to crush Balon several times over.

 

The second makes no sense to me. Balon had three clear choices.

 

• Remain neutral and ignore the war altogether.
• Seek independence and accept Robb's offer.
• Declare for Joffrey and demand Tywin to give him all the lands in the North he could chew. Maybe all of it if he felt bold enough.

 

At the moment of his decision to invade the North, Tywin is in a terrible position and he would have been forced to say yes to any demand Balon had cared to ask, as it happened the Fall of Winterfell, thanks again Theon Ironborn invasion was the beginning of the end for Robb. Balon had all the leverage and he could have plundered and conquered at will.

He does not do that, he throws Tywin Lannister a clutch life saver for free while pretending to occupy and enslave land almost as big as the whole south, with no love for outsiders, especially Ironborn. His only reason to believe he could pull off the upset was him having MC... Yet he could have never maintained a literal ruin come winter. Everyone with half a brain in the books can tell his plan is doomed to fail. And not even Cersei Lannister was dumb enough to bargain with them... And after taking care of the Starks for free, no one had any reason to entertain for a moment.  He seems to believe that Tywin wouldn't lose, which fair enough, yet he seems to believe that Tywin is going to let him run away with half the realm under his bag and one of the Realm's true cities and sources of revenue... Baffling to say the least.

The first one has the charm of a daring gamble, the second one is a convoluted mess he was lucky enough to not have lived till the moment that once again a greenland army came to pay him a visit and take his daughter.

[Arthur Peres]

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

How's that dumb or bad?? Why would they openly help the Starks in a moment the Lannisters seemed to be about to take over everything??

You compare that to whatever the hell Stannis and Renly were doing??

You're missing my point. I'm never said that it was dumb of Walder Frey to impose and use his leverage on Robb.

@Walda said that Catelyn prevented the northems to make the blunder of offending the Freys honor (that does not exists as we know) by cutting them short.

I argue that If they (the northem lords) were making that blunder, then Catelyn did the same during Stannis and Renly meeting. Even if she spake the truth (they were behaving like brats I agree). 

[Darth Sidious]

Ballon is too stuck in the past. Piracy can’t be allowed to victimize the six other kingdoms.  This tradition is gone.  

[The Young Maester]

32 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Ballon is too stuck in the past. Piracy can’t be allowed to victimize the six other kingdoms.  This tradition is gone.  

True, theres a reason why the danes and Norseman that took to Viking abandoned the old way.