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Did Balon make a single smart decision ever?


Alyn Oakenfist

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On 12/19/2020 at 2:25 PM, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Ballon is too stuck in the past. Piracy can’t be allowed to victimize the six other kingdoms.  This tradition is gone. 

The tradition of not planting trees? If I recall, someone over in Essos is cool with it.

On 12/19/2020 at 12:03 PM, BlackLightning said:

Let me ask you a question: which one of Balon's rebellions was dumber? The first or the second?

Wanting an independent kingdom is fine, but that Old Way stuff is very stupid.

Now which of Balon's male family members is dumber? 

On 10/15/2020 at 11:56 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Hell no. As noted above, the little princess now has to act like the Reavers heir. But still, that spunk inside Asha is who she is, so therell always be that conniving warrior that we know as Greyjoy inside of her even if her brothers didnt meet with tragedy.

But can we imagine Ned allowing Sansa or Arya to lead major battles, where the gentle sex is fighting like krakens? Doubtful. Same with Margery, Cersei, Catelyn, etc.

We even see with Cat, she was raised to be Hosters heir, being much older then her baby brother. So she did learn to lead, dabble with constituents, etc. But not to read battleplans or learn to play catch with axes.

Some women wouldn't want to slit throats, get drunk, juggle sharp blades, pass out in their own vomit. Thank goodness there's some variation there.

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12 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The tradition of not planting trees?

The Iron Islands are small, barely-fertile rocks with few safe harbors. The seas around the isles are stormy, frequently wreaking havoc with their considerable force.
The islands are sparse and rocky with a thin, stony soil that makes it hard for the smallfolk to farm, often having to do without the animals that might make their job easier, such as oxen or horses.[9] While their mines do not produce the precious metals of the westerlands,[2]iron is abundant on the isles.[1]Lead and tin can also be obtained. Most ironborn feel the dangerous and backbreaking labor required to mine these metals is work suitable only for thralls. With so little wealth on the islands themselves, it is not difficult to understand why the ironborn of old turned to raiding. Archmaester Haereg suggests that need for wood was what first drove the ironborn to raid the mainland.[1]


So do you see?It would be pretty difficult for them to plant trees.Their only options would be they either go independent and continue their tradition or they integrate and the rest of the kingdoms help them.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If I recall, someone over in Essos is cool with it.

Dany indeed planted trees in Essos,olives,the symbol of peace.The "dragons plant no trees" quote (olives/peace) means they are not made for peace and they are not.Also,it was tied to the idea of her going to Westeros,to not pospone it anymore,to hurry.So,she should not continue in Meereen,with her dragons locked and trying to make peace with people that don't want it,but she should go to Westeros,unchain her dragons and fight for her family.

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20 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

The Iron Islands are small, barely-fertile rocks with few safe harbors. The seas around the isles are stormy, frequently wreaking havoc with their considerable force.
The islands are sparse and rocky with a thin, stony soil that makes it hard for the smallfolk to farm, often having to do without the animals that might make their job easier, such as oxen or horses.[9] While their mines do not produce the precious metals of the westerlands,[2]iron is abundant on the isles.[1]Lead and tin can also be obtained. Most ironborn feel the dangerous and backbreaking labor required to mine these metals is work suitable only for thralls. With so little wealth on the islands themselves, it is not difficult to understand why the ironborn of old turned to raiding. Archmaester Haereg suggests that need for wood was what first drove the ironborn to raid the mainland.[1]


So do you see?It would be pretty difficult for them to plant trees.Their only options would be they either go independent and continue their tradition or they integrate and the rest of the kingdoms help them.

There are many places in the world that have the same kind of soil but they don't resort to violence as part of their "customs." Also, you are missing the entire metaphor. Planting trees is poetic way of saying that you value life, planning wisely for the future, rebuilding, and growth. The Iron Islands don't want to trade, make allies, think about how to prosper without murder or theft. Reaving may resolve their problems quickly but on the whole, as a people, they won't experience growth or prosperity in the long run. 

The Dothraki are basically the same, and make it part of their religion: "Khal Mengo.... took the conquered lands as well, burning fields and farms and towns to return the grasslands to their wild state (for the Dothraki consider the earth to be their mother and think it sinful to cut her flesh with plows and spades and axes)."

Dany just happened to make the same conclusions as the Dothraki and Iron Born. Hmm I wonder if that's significant at all?

And if you recall Dany tried planting trees.... and then changed her mind. "NO you are the blood of the dragon, dragon's don't do that silly stuff with trees, you have to remember who you are." "Meereen is the Harpy's city" "Your kingdom is in Westeros. You were born to serve them blood and fire"

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:
3 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Where?

A little piece of land where Arya is right now. No trees.

No one has heard of the "rapers and reavers" of Braavos. They went into banking instead.

Yeah, Braavos is what the Iron Islands could be if they had a brain. Luckily rulers like Balon don't have one so they're all safe

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54 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

A little piece of land where Arya is right now. No trees.

No one has heard of the "rapers and reavers" of Braavos. They went into banking instead.

Hmmm..let's see how Braavos is

Braavos is the wealthiest and likely the most powerful of the Free Cities.[2] It is located in a lagoon on the northwestern end of Essos, where the narrow sea and the Shivering Sea meet.[3][2] Braavos is also known as Braavos of the Hundred Isles[4] and the Secret City,[2][5][6] a name also attributed to the city Nefer, the last remaining city of N'ghai.[7] Braavos is sometimes referred to as the "bastard daughter of Valyria".[8]

Nature

There are no trees to be found within the city (except in the courts and gardens of the mighty)[12] making Braavos a flat city of stone architecture and granite monuments.[16] The streets are lined with houses made of grey stone, built so close that they lean upon one another. Some houses are built above waterways. They are usually slim buildings with peaked tile roofs, raised four to five stories tall.[16] Braavos has no walls.[16] The islands like Sellagoro's Shield surrounding Braavos are covered with soldier pines and black spruce,[16] which act as windbreaks to protect the harbor. It is illegal to cut these trees down. Because of this, and the lack of wood in the remainder of the city, the price of firewood, which has to be brought in by barge, is high.[12]

As the water from the lagoon is brackish and briny and the canal water is not drinkable without first boiling it,[16] the Braavosi have build the sweetwater river to supply themselves with clean water. A grey stone roadway supported by three tiers of arches traveling from the south, looming above the canals and houses, it brings fresh water from the mainland across the mudflats and the briny shallows. Rich men pipe it directly into their homes, while commoners fill buckets at public fountains.[12] The sweetwater river ends at the Moon Pool.[2][17]

Ports

Scattered throughout the city are small wharves and landings for fishermen and ferries.[12] Some of the wharves are located below the Drowned Town.[5] Further, the city is served by three main harbors: the Chequy Port, located directly behind the Arsenal, where ships arriving in Braavos have to submit to inspection by the Sealord's customs officers upon arrival in the city;[16] the Purple Harbor, located in the north of the city beneath the towers and domes of the Sealord's Palace, a harbor for Braavosi ships only;[12][20] and the Ragman's Harbor,[12] also called the Outer Harbor,[19] located in the west of the city, where all foreign ships are allowed to dock. Ragman's is poorer, rougher, dirtier, and noisier than the Purple Harbor.[12][17]

Economy

Braavos is the wealthiest and most powerful of the Free Cities, in part due to the wealth and influence of the Iron Bank.[26] The Iron Bank lends money to foreign nations, including the Seven Kingdoms.[27] Braavosi coins are square and made from iron.[21]

During the years when Braavos was as of yet undiscovered, the city prospered. The Braavosi discovered a sea snail similar to those that could be found at Tyrosh, and whose dyes had made the city famous. The snail found by the Braavosi yielded dark purple dye, which the Braavosi used to color the sails of the ships the founders had stolen from the Valyrians.[2] They paint their hulls purple too.[28] At first, Braavos began to trade with Ib, and later the Seven Kingdoms.[2]

Braavos has a seafaring trade culture. Much of the city's early wealth came from the brackish waters of the lagoon. These waters yielded oysters, eels, crabs, crawfish, clams, rays, and many sorts of fish. Braavosi ships paint their hulls purple and their merchant ships sail to many distant lands and bring their trade and wealth back home. One hears of purple sails as far away as Asshai and the islands of the Jade Sea. In the present, Braavos is one of the greatest ports of the world, where all but slavers are allowed to dock. Even ships from Qarth and the Summer Isles come to Braavos to trade.[2][11][16]


They surely seem to have more than the Ironborn,plus The Iron Bank plays an important role on that.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Braavos has a seafaring trade culture. Much of the city's early wealth came from the brackish waters of the lagoon. These waters yielded oysters, eels, crabs, crawfish, clams, rays, and many sorts of fish. Braavosi ships paint their hulls purple and their merchant ships sail to many distant lands and bring their trade and wealth back home. One hears of purple sails as far away as Asshai and the islands of the Jade Sea. In the present, Braavos is one of the greatest ports of the world, where all but slavers are allowed to dock. Even ships from Qarth and the Summer Isles come to Braavos to trade.[2][11][16]


They surely seem to have more than the Ironborn,plus The Iron Bank plays an important role on that.

It's almost as if stealing, raping and murdering are not effective long term occupations

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Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's almost as if stealing, raping and murdering are not effective long term occupations

I mean the resources.Braavos has a lot more field,seafaring trade culture (I don't know how rich the waters from the Iron Island are and with what they can trade),I think they also have more ships than the Ironborn plus,the Iron Bank.What do the Ironborn have?Iron,fishes and some wood?If they want independence I don't know how they can be better just sitting and farming what they have.Maybe they should start traiding like braavosi do or keep being integrated in the Seven Kingdoms and ask aid.

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46 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

I mean the resources.Braavos has a lot more field,seafaring trade culture (I don't know how rich the waters from the Iron Island are and with what they can trade),I think they also have more ships than the Ironborn plus,the Iron Bank.What do the Ironborn have?Iron,fishes and some wood?If they want independence I don't know how they can be better just sitting and farming what they have.Maybe they should start traiding like braavosi do or keep being integrated in the Seven Kingdoms and ask aid.

They have a seafaring trade culture...because they decided to be seafaring traders instead of slavers and rapists. Like this was a decision. And they didn't have extravagant resources. Braavos started with nothing...it was just a bog and they turned it into a prosperous society. Because they metaphorically planted trees, i.e. made sure that the foundation of their society is based on long-term growth. Why are we arguing about this? Why are you defending the Iron Born? 

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's almost as if stealing, raping and murdering are not effective long term occupations

And using "thralls" against their will. Slavery lite I guess?

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

They have a seafaring trade culture...because they decided to be seafaring traders instead of slavers and rapists. Like this was a decision. And they didn't have extravagant resources. Braavos started with nothing...it was just a bog and they turned it into a prosperous society. Because they metaphorically planted trees, i.e. made sure that the foundation of their society is based on long-term growth. Why are we arguing about this? Why are you defending the Iron Born? 

Please read what I posted before you reply.

 

2 hours ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

Much of the city's early wealth came from the brackish waters of the lagoon. These waters yielded oysters, eels, crabs, crawfish, clams, rays, and many sorts of fish.

That's why they could trade.They had with what.Meanwhile,what is the richness of the Ironborn waters?And don't put words into my mouth.I'm not defending them.I just stated the difference between the Iron Islands and Braavos.They could not be the same because they differ in how much resources they have.Maybe the Ironborn could somehow reach a level of traders but I doubt they would be as successful as Braavos.

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24 minutes ago, Dracul's Daughter said:

That's why they could trade.They had with what.Meanwhile,what is the richness of the Ironborn waters?And don't put words into my mouth.I'm not defending them.I just stated the difference between the Iron Islands and Braavos.They could not be the same because they differ in how much resources they have.Maybe the Ironborn could somehow reach a level of traders but I doubt they would be as successful as Braavos.

Your conclusions are just off.

The Ironborn waters ARE rich in sea life like Braavos. There is NOT that much of a difference in resources between the two:

Quote

 

The soil of the Iron Islands is thin and stony, more suitable for the grazing of goats than the raising of crops. The ironborn would surely suffer famine every winter but for the endless bounty of the sea and the fisherfolk who reap it.

The waters of Ironman’s Bay are home to great schools of cod, black cod, monkfish, skate, icefish, sardines, and mackerel. Crabs and lobsters are found along the shores of all the islands, and west of Great Wyk swordfish, seals, and whales roam the Sunset Sea.

 

And

Quote

Archmaester Hake, born and raised on Harlaw, estimates that seven of every ten families on the Iron Islands are fisherfolk. However mean and poor these men might be on land, upon the sea they are their own masters.

“The man who owns a boat need never be a thrall,” Hake writes, “for every captain is a king upon the deck of his own ship.” It is their catch that feeds the islands.”

^ Their rulers made the choice to not listen to this guy, and instead value their raiders like some Viking toxic masculinity pissing contest. 

They also have iron and metalworks:

Quote

“Such riches as the Iron Islands possess lie under the hills of Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, where lead, tin, and iron can be found in abundance. These ores are the chief export of the islands. There are many fine metalworkers amongst the ironborn, as might be expected; the forges of Lordsport produce swords, axes, ringmail, and plate second to none.

See, about the same resources. Despite their similarities, Braavos build something that lasts (planting "trees") while the Iron Islands did not. One society is thriving the other is careening backwards. 

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16 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Your conclusions are just off.

The Ironborn waters ARE rich in sea life like Braavos. There is NOT that much of a difference in resources between the two:

And

^ Their rulers made the choice to not listen to this guy, and instead value their raiders like some Viking toxic masculinity pissing contest. 

They also have iron and metalworks:

See, about the same resources. Despite their similarities, Braavos build something that lasts (planting "trees") while the Iron Islands did not. One society is thriving the other is careening backwards. 

My bad then.I haven't red "The World of Ice and Fire" yet and from what I understood from "A Song of Ice and Fire" they seemd to have fewer resources.

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On 10/14/2020 at 10:58 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Asha mocked Theon and later on did the same mistake for a castle far less strategic that she had even lower connection.

Yup, but she left hostages at her nuncle's (that was a smart move). A man of the mountain clans even apologizes to Asha for calling her cunt, likely after Alysane informed him that the Deepwood Motte heirs are in IB hands, far away. Asha probably did so to have a bargaining chip and ensure her physical survival. And she had to stay clear of the Iron Islands to avoid being physically wed off to a man she didn't want.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Yup, but she left hostages at her nuncle's (that was a smart move). A man of the mountain clans even apologizes to Asha for calling her cunt, likely after Alysane informed him that the Deepwood Motte heirs are in IB hands, far away. Asha probably did so to have a bargaining chip and ensure her physical survival. And she had to stay clear of the Iron Islands to avoid being physically wed off to a man she didn't want.

It wouldn't matter much if she was caught by a lunatic like Ramsey... she putted herself into that situation, and if her captor was diferent, we would have a very disburbing POV about her being hunted by dogs in the wild.

Theon himself was much more valuable if he was in top condition, he just has this cursed luck that Ramsey is not rational or pragmatic, but a sadistic prick.

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Just now, Arthur Peres said:

It wouldn't matter much if she was caught by a lunatic like Ramsey... she putted herself into that situation, and if her captor was diferent, we would have a very disburbing POV about her being hunted by dogs in the wild.

Theon himself was much more valuable if he was in top condition, he just has this cursed luck that Ramsey is not rational or pragmatic, but a sadistic prick.

Yup, but overall the IB do not seem to have kept on the update of Robb Stark's fate. Robb Stark is still alive when she learned of Balon's death. None of it is discussed at the Iron Islands, except that Asha tried to look for Theon's body amongst the shambles of Winterfell. She had no knowledge of Ramsay, let alone that he would have such power over the North after the Bolton betrayal at the Twins. She only learns of the likes as Ramsay the night she's taken by Stannis, only then having received his spikey written letter.

I'm not saying it was the smartest move, but it certainly was smarter than making it seem she killed her child hostages and heirs to the castle.

BTW I think that Maege sent her daughter Alysane the command to seize Deepwood Motte in Asha's absence, explaining why the youngest daughter was the sole one who could reply to Stannis's letter and why Alysane was in the bay after all. But the taking of the hostages to the Iron Islands, and leaving the children at her nuncle's prevented Alysane from executing the plan, until Stannis forced her to jump in and inform everyone there not to harm Asha.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm not saying it was the smartest move, but it certainly was smarter than making it seem she killed her child hostages and heirs to the castle.

 

It was very dumb... just to remind you how things could quickly go south, Stannis men wanted to burn her alive...

Quote

“My lady asked you to let her go,” said Aly Mormont. “You would do well to listen, ser. Lady Asha is not for burning.” “She will be,” Suggs insisted. “We have harbored this demon worshiper amongst us too long.” He released his grip on Asha’s arm all the same. One did not provoke the She-Bear needlessly.

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Yup, but overall the IB do not seem to have kept on the update of Robb Stark's fate. Robb Stark is still alive when she learned of Balon's death. None of it is discussed at the Iron Islands, except that Asha tried to look for Theon's body amongst the shambles of Winterfell. She had no knowledge of Ramsay, let alone that he would have such power over the North after the Bolton betrayal at the Twins. She only learns of the likes as Ramsay the night she's taken by Stannis, only then having received his spikey written letter.

 

Honestly? it makes her look even worse in my eyes... if she wanted to ally with the north like she spoke in her Kingsmoot, at the very least she should understand what is going on there, it is the kind of move only Balon could pull off, like when he tried to ally Tywin...ohh now I see why he choose her,

Her whole plan on the kingsmoot is a worst version of Theon proposal, that she with Balon spat on.

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37 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

It was very dumb... just to remind you how things could quickly go south, Stannis men wanted to burn her alive...

Stannis's men want to do a lot of stuff, to which Stannis says "pray harder". Notice how the Northeners do not clamor for Asha's death. They want Theon dead though.

Quote

Honestly? it makes her look even worse in my eyes... if she wanted to ally with the north like she spoke in her Kingsmoot, at the very least she should understand what is going on there, it is the kind of move only Balon could pull off, like when he tried to ally Tywin...ohh now I see why he choose her,

Her whole plan on the kingsmoot is a worst version of Theon proposal, that she with Balon spat on.

I said zilch over her plan for peace on the kingsmoot. I just said that keeping her hostages and the heirs of Deepwood Motte alive and keeping the heirs at her nuncle's while bringing back Sybelle was way smarther than Theon pretending to kill Bran and Rickon (and he would have killed them with Ramsay's whispers eventually if caught).

It's not her fault she didn't know that Freys and Boltons intended to stab Robb Stark, when she sailed off for the kingsmoot. It's like none of the Ironborn know of this by the time they hold the kingsmoot. Not surprising. After being held at Pyke for 6 months, very few ships intend to dock at the Iron Islands. They would have avoided it like the plague. And that's on Balon. Anyway, only the Freys, Boltons and Tywin knew of the RW beforehand.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Stannis's men want to do a lot of stuff, to which Stannis says "pray harder". Notice how the Northeners do not clamor for Asha's death. They want Theon dead though.

 

Yes, at that moment. But Stannis is also the man willing to burn his own nephew not so long ago and if the show is correct... even his own daughter. Asha just had a better luck then Theon(not that hard, Theon's life would make Dolorous Edd be optimistic.)

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I said zilch over her plan for peace on the kingsmoot. I just said that keeping her hostages and the heirs of Deepwood Motte alive and keeping the heirs at her nuncle's while bringing back Sybelle was way smarther than Theon pretending to kill Bran and Rickon (and he would have killed them with Ramsay's whispers eventually if caught).

 

Keeping the hostages does not mean much on the matter, she is far more valueble then the kids, and we also have cases of the northem trying to get the hostages killed, like Arnolf Karstark trying to get Harrion killed to take his lands. If Robert Glover falls, all her leverage can go to waste.

Asha just had a better luck than her brother.

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

It's not her fault she didn't know that Freys and Boltons intended to stab Robb Stark, when she sailed off for the kingsmoot. It's like none of the Ironborn know of this by the time they hold the kingsmoot. Not surprising. After being held at Pyke for 6 months, very few ships intend to dock at the Iron Islands. They would have avoided it like the plague. And that's on Balon. Anyway, only the Freys, Boltons and Tywin knew of the RW beforehand.

Ok, but do you see her smarter than Theon, or disagree on any of the early points I made about Theon being a better heir then her?

She also should see that the North was very weak at that point, with in fighting already happening in the north with Manderly, Hornwoods and Boltons, it was happening when she was still in the north.

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