Did Balon make a single smart decision ever?

[sweetsunray]

41 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Yes, at that moment. But Stannis is also the man willing to burn his own nephew not so long ago and if the show is correct... even his own daughter. Asha just had a better luck then Theon(not that hard, Theon's life would make Dolorous Edd be optimistic.)

Stannis has clearly taken a complete different stance to burning (and even may be in on the glamor or The Lord of Bones), and might not even be willing to burn the WF tree if Bran "miraculously" informs him about the secret ways on how to move around in the surrounding walls of WF. @kissdbyfire has proposed that Theon may surrender to Bran skinchanging him before the tree on the island of the ice lake, and be his voice to pass on Bran's knowledge about this. It seems by comments made from the show -book written and published over the summer that Stannis may indeed be the one to burn Shyreen, but we both know he would not do such a thing before he ends up in a most desperate situation.

Quote

Keeping the hostages does not mean much on the matter, she is far more valueble then the kids, and we also have cases of the northem trying to get the hostages killed, like Arnolf Karstark trying to get Harrion killed to take his lands. If Robert Glover falls, all her leverage can go to waste.

It means a great deal for the Northerners. The Lord of Deepwood Motte is Galbart Glover, not Robett Glover. Robett is Lord Galbart's brother, and primary heir. Robert's children are Galbart's heirs after Robert. 

 

Quote

 

"The ironmen have my castle and now the Lannisters hold my brother," Galbart Glover said, in a voice thick with despair. Robett Glover had survived the battle, but had been captured near the kingsroad not long after.

"Not for long," her son promised. "I will offer them Martyn Lannister in exchange. Lord Tywin will have to accept, for his brother's sake." Martyn was Ser Kevan's son, a twin to the Willem that Lord Karstark had butchered. (aSoS, Catelyn II)

 

Robb had dispatched Jeyne's uncle Rolph Spicer to deliver young Martyn Lannister to the Golden Tooth the very day he received Lord Tywin's assent to the exchange of captives. It was deftly done. Her son was relieved of his fear for Martyn's safety, Galbart Glover was relieved to hear that his brother Robett had been put on a ship at Duskendale, [...] (aSoS, Catelyn V)

 

No sooner had he left the king's pavilion than the Greatjon began to laugh, but Robb silenced him with a look. "Euron Greyjoy is no man's notion of a king, if half of what Theon said of him was true. Theon is the rightful heir, unless he's dead . . . but Victarion commands the Iron Fleet. I can't believe he would remain at Moat Cailin while Euron Crow's Eye holds the Seastone Chair. He has to go back."

"There's a daughter as well," Galbart Glover reminded him. "The one who holds Deepwood Motte, and Robett's wife and child."

"If she stays at Deepwood Motte that's all she can hope to hold," said Robb. "What's true for the brothers is even more true for her. She will need to sail home to oust Euron and press her own claim." Her son turned to Lord Jason Mallister. "You have a fleet at Seagard?" (aSoS, Catelyn V)

 

 

It was Galbart who was sent on a mission into the Neck along with Maege Mormont by Robb, with fake letters if caught. They took ship in Seagard. Alysane reveals she knows where her sisters are (with Maege), and thus that they survived the RW, though she of course does not disclose the whereabouts to Asha. Alysane was not the one to answer Stannis's letter. A kid had to answer it. This points to Alysane having not been at Bear Island at the time Stannis sent his letters. So, Alysane must have been acting under orders from her mother and Galbart. Since she was in the bay for Deepwood Motte, this means those orders included freeing Deepwood Motte, and that order must have been sent from Seagard (not the Neck). The sole thing that kept Alysane from freeing Deepwood Motte was Asha taking the hostages to the Iron Islands, and then not returning with all of them. Later on, Sybelle, the now freed mother of the hostage children hands Asha's men over to Tycho Nestoris in exchange for money, and these men are returned to Asha.

 

Anyway, you mixed up the Glovers and underestimate their value for the Northern factions, who Stannis must please and win and keep in support of him.

 

Quote

Asha just had a better luck than her brother.

Nope. She didn't "kill her hostages" in the eyes of the Northerners, but used them for the reason you take hostages in the first place, and treated them correctly.

Quote

Ok, but do you see her smarter than Theon, or disagree on any of the early points I made about Theon being a better heir then her?

I think in some ways she's better than Theon (she wouldn't kill kids out of fear of not being respected by her men), but in other ways she's more limited in how to use a castle (she exits the castle to battle, instead of letting the enemy throw itself against the walls).

Quote

She also should see that the North was very weak at that point, with in fighting already happening in the north with Manderly, Hornwoods and Boltons, it was happening when she was still in the north.

And that didn't help Theon much, did it?

[Arthur Peres]

41 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Nope. She didn't "kill her hostages" in the eyes of the Northerners, but used them for the reason you take hostages in the first place, and treated them correctly.

 

It wouldn't make much of diference if her captor was Ramsey. This is what I mean by being "lucky". Theon could have spared the boys and would not change a thing about his future infortune.

 

42 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think in some ways she's better than Theon (she wouldn't kill kids out of fear of not being respected by her men), but in other ways she's more limited in how to use a castle (she exits the castle to battle, instead of letting the enemy throw itself against the walls).

 

Asha had years with her crew to gain their respect. Theon just meet his men, he was only a figure head with Aeron being the real one in charge babysitting him. Their situations were very diferent, as Asha herself explains it:

"Ten years a wolf, and you land here and think to prince about the islands, but you know nothing and no one. Why should men fight and die for you?"

She is more stuborn than him, and have less foresight and hindsight than him. Theon knew from the start that the north was a natural ally, but Asha went along with Balon, she failed to see that after the IB attack any alliance was impossible, and she also failed to see it.

 

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

It wouldn't make much of diference if her captor was Ramsey. This is what I mean by being "lucky". Theon could have spared the boys and would not change a thing about his future infortune.

Already discussed: Her captor wasn't Ramsay. And she couldn't know about Ramsay, nor could Theon.

12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Asha had years with her crew to gain their respect. Theon just meet his men, he was only a figure head with Aeron being the real one in charge babysitting him. Their situations were very diferent, as Asha herself explains it:

"Ten years a wolf, and you land here and think to prince about the islands, but you know nothing and no one. Why should men fight and die for you?"

Yes, she had years to gain their respect. Theon didn't. And he ignored that fact.

12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

She is more stuborn than him,

Lol... more stubborn than the man who refused to surrender against an overpowering siege, refusing to take the black, etc.?

12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

and have less foresight and hindsight than him.

Less hindsight than the man who "killed his hostages" and got himself a landlocked castle without a way to escape if attacked?

12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Theon knew from the start that the north was a natural ally, but Asha went along with Balon, she failed to see that after the IB attack any alliance was impossible, and she also failed to see it.

Yes, he knew it was a natural ally, and yet he made sure to make it a mortal enemy of him.

I wouldn't say any alliance is impossible. Sybelle freeing her prisoners suggests an alliance is possible.

[The Bard of Banefort]

It sounds like Balon was actually pretty good about keeping the Iron Islands running after his rebellion, but we don't know much about what happened during those years. It speaks to the Ironborn's sense of loyalty to one another that they continued to follow Balon after the rebellion failed, and that they stayed loyal to Dagon and--eventually--Dalton's son after their follies.

Balon's greatest achievement was probably that he was the only thing keeping Euron somewhat contained after their father died. This may be one of the reasons why Aeron was so devoted to Balon, since he was able to exert some control over the brother that had terrorized Aeron as a child. (I once saw someone point out that unlike Balon and Victarion, Euron was never married, so props to Quellon from sparing some poor girl that experience).

There are some lines about Balon in AFFC that always amused me:

Quote

Once he bet his new longship against a herd of goats that he could quench a hearthfire with no more than his cock. Aeron feasted on goat for a year, and named the longship Golden Storm, though Balon threatened to hang him from her mast when he heard what sort of ram his brother proposed to mount upon her prow.

 

Quote

"he Crow's Eye brought back monsters from the east . . . aye, and wizards too."

 

"Nuncle always had a fondness for freaks and fools," said Asha. "My father used to fight with him about it."

Even though I don't like Balon, the idea of him constantly fighting with his brothers over all the dumb sh*t they do is hilarious to me. 

[Arthur Peres]

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Lol... more stubborn than the man who refused to surrender against an overpowering siege, refusing to take the black, etc.?

 

Yep, she ignored everyone advice about not taking place on the Kingsmoot, she ignored the advice about leaving the north to become a merchant, she ignored Theon warnings about the invasion of the north.

Theon was too attached to Winterfell on a emotional level, Asha stay put on Deepwood out pure stuborness.

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Less hindsight than the man who "killed his hostages" and got himself a landlocked castle without a way to escape if attacked?

 

Yep, Theon knew that attacking the north was stupidity before it happened and told on Balon's face. He also knew that if got out that he lost a cripple boy, a toddler and the local idiot he would lose all the respect of the people in Winterfell and his own men. He choose to go Tywin and get their fear and hatred instead of their mockery.

Theon still had hostages as he used Rodrik's daughter to stall the northems. He didn't left the castle and allowed himself to be overrun and capture at the woods.

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, she had years to gain their respect. Theon didn't. And he ignored that fact.

 

He didn't ignored it, he saw this everywhere, on the task Balon gave him, he saw Aeron babysitting him, and complains again and again about this with Dagmer... He then decides to gain their respect by taking Winterfell and he gets it done.

23 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, he knew it was a natural ally, and yet he made sure to make it a mortal enemy of him.

 

When in hell you hug the devil. Theon saved the Ironborn campaing, he was a turncloak to the northems and betrayed them. There was no point of return.

25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I wouldn't say any alliance is impossible. Sybelle freeing her prisoners suggests an alliance is possible.

The hostages are now under Euron's authority. Asha does not have acess to them. She herself is a prisoner, and her value is to high for a trade.

Any goodwill that could exist is gone. The north offered a handshake and got punched again and again, Theon was raised in the north and still betrayed them, just like Daemon Blackfyre became embodiment of bastards in the most negative sensem, Theon became it to the IB. Asha failed to convice her own people, let alone the north. One house on her side(under coercion) is not gonna change that.

[sweetsunray]

54 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Yep, she ignored everyone advice about not taking place on the Kingsmoot, she ignored the advice about leaving the north to become a merchant, she ignored Theon warnings about the invasion of the north.

Theon was too attached to Winterfell on a emotional level, Asha stay put on Deepwood out pure stuborness.

She did fairly well at the Kingsmoot, despite not winning.

No, she stayed in Deepwood because she couldn't remain on the Iron Islands without being married off. Now there's only a proxy marriage.

Yes, Theon was attached to Winterfell... that doesn't make it a "smart" move.

Quote

He also knew that if got out that he lost a cripple boy, a toddler and the local idiot he would lose all the respect of the people in Winterfell and his own men. He choose to go Tywin and get their fear and hatred instead of their mockery.

It got him more than fear and hatred. Without them he had no real leverage of importance to prevent an attack on WF. It was stupid. And it were his own broken promises to Bran in the first place that made Bran choose to run. He promised to not harm anyone of the castle if Bran surrendered. Bran surrendered, and yet he had Chayle drowned for a god Theon doesn't even believe in, without even Aeron being there, just to impress his men. That death was the last  of the three that Jojen had prophesied. And it's what made Bran run.

You know, you don't need years of experience to get people to respect you. You just act as if you already have it. And the more you worry and focus on winning the respect of people, the more you lose it.

Quote

Theon still had hostages as he used Rodrik's daughter to stall the northems.

And Rodrik would have attacked anyway, at the cost of his daughter's life, if Theon hadn't been so lucky and unlucky at the same time that Ramsay attacked the Northerners from behind.

Quote

He didn't left the castle and allowed himself to be overrun and capture at the woods.

True. I already pointed that out myself.

Quote

He didn't ignored it, he saw this everywhere, on the task Balon gave him, he saw Aeron babysitting him, and complains again and again about this with Dagmer... He then decides to gain their respect by taking Winterfell and he gets it done.

You don't take a castle to "gain respect". You gain a castle because it's of strategical advantage. If you can keep it, you keep it. If you cannot you get out. 

Quote

The hostages are now under Euron's authority. Asha does not have acess to them. She herself is a prisoner, and her value is to high for a trade.

They are not under Euron's authority. It's unlikely he knows of it. They are with her nuncle. No, Assha does not have access to them. But as long as she lives and her nuncle doesn't learn of her being killed, he'll keep those hostages alive.

Quote

Any goodwill that could exist is gone. The north offered a handshake and got punched again and again, Theon was raised in the north and still betrayed them, just like Daemon Blackfyre became embodiment of bastards in the most negative sensem, Theon became it to the IB. Asha failed to convice her own people, let alone the north. One house on her side(under coercion) is not gonna change that.

Well on that we disagree, as there are certain things that can happen still for the Northerners to form a different relation with Asha and even Theon.

Overall I consider Asha and Theon equally stupid and smart, but on other stuff. Theon has foresight. Asha has better hindsight. Theon is good in greenlanding thinking. Asha understands the needs of the Ironborn better. Asha as leader of the IB with Theon as Hand would be a combo who could actually be smart.

[frenin]

The only think one gets after reading you two is that both suck but Theon sucks some more.

[The Bard of Banefort]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Overall I consider Asha and Theon equally stupid and smart, but on other stuff. Theon has foresight. Asha has better hindsight. Theon is good in greenlanding thinking. Asha understands the needs of the Ironborn better. Asha as leader of the IB with Theon as Hand would be a combo who could actually be smart.

I tend to think that Theon will eventually, somehow, sit the Seastone Chair via the Latecomer loophole (maybe Aeron will even have a vision convincing him that it has to be Theon), and that Asha will rule through him. Theon's been humbled enough that he won't object to having a woman as his Hand the way Victarion did, and if he can't procreate in the books, then Asha's children will rule the islands after him.

I'm not sure how Theon is going to survive Stannis, but if I had to wager a guess, I'd say that Bran will find some way to intervene. He already tried to reach Theon once before.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/21/2020 at 10:20 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Now which of Balon's male family members is dumber? 

 

Probably Aeron.

But that's a really hard question to answer because I feel like he and Victarion are neck-and-neck.

Both are stupid.

On 12/21/2020 at 9:04 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Even though I don't like Balon, the idea of him constantly fighting with his brothers over all the dumb sh*t they do is hilarious to me. 

LOL

[The Bard of Banefort]

Something I find interesting about Balon, Victarion, and Aeron is that they're all devoted to reinstating the Old Way, yet none of them seem to resent their father, who embraced the New Way more than any other lord prior. Victarion doesn't show any disdain towards Quellon's memory, Aeron seems to think he wasn't worthy of being his son, and if Balon resented his father, he didn't vocalize it. (Based on what we've seen, they don't really appear to resent Rodrik the Reader either, who is of a similar disposition). There's some cognitive dissonance here.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 10/11/2020 at 3:50 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Balon sure is a special kind of moron, whose mistakes make Moon Boy look like a better potential leader. The only question is, did he do anything smart as Lord Reaver? Like at all?

Bend a knee to the Iron Throne

Being on the bridge during a storm .

[Alyn Oakenfist]

On 12/23/2020 at 3:12 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I tend to think that Theon will eventually, somehow, sit the Seastone Chair via the Latecomer loophole (maybe Aeron will even have a vision convincing him that it has to be Theon), and that Asha will rule through him. Theon's been humbled enough that he won't object to having a woman as his Hand the way Victarion did, and if he can't procreate in the books, then Asha's children will rule the islands after him.

I'm not sure how Theon is going to survive Stannis, but if I had to wager a guess, I'd say that Bran will find some way to intervene. He already tried to reach Theon once before.

I think the answer is Stannis. Stannis has shown to be veeery pragmatic in ADWD, perfectly capable to use trickery and deceit. I can see him burning Ramsay, Arnolf or Roose disguised as Theon and then sending Theon with a ship or two to start hell in the Iron Islands, maybe even win them for him.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Bending the knee to Robert, not banning Euron because he should have had him executed and that it bit back spectacularly on him.

[Jaenara Belarys]

He's an Ironborn, do any of them even have enough cognitive ability to think beyond "Oooh, glittery. Steal it. No unmanly things, so I don't move beyond being an idiotic version of a Viking. Burn stuff. Grab that fisherman's daughter, because I'm a total piece of shit, but I have to be a true Ironborn, blah, blah, blah. "? 

 

Besides Asha, and maybe Qarl and the Reader, the Ironborn are complete idiots and I'm honestly surprised anyone, besides heaps of skeletons, live on them islands. 

[WhatAnArtist!]

On 12/24/2020 at 11:12 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something I find interesting about Balon, Victarion, and Aeron is that they're all devoted to reinstating the Old Way, yet none of them seem to resent their father, who embraced the New Way more than any other lord prior. Victarion doesn't show any disdain towards Quellon's memory, Aeron seems to think he wasn't worthy of being his son, and if Balon resented his father, he didn't vocalize it. (Based on what we've seen, they don't really appear to resent Rodrik the Reader either, who is of a similar disposition). There's some cognitive dissonance here.

I think it comes down to the deeply ingrained respect for one's elders that's present in the ironborn. There's the conflict between respecting their elders as their culture demands, but also staying true to their culture's other values. This is a conflict present in some countries in our own world too. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

11 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He's an Ironborn, do any of them even have enough cognitive ability to think beyond "Oooh, glittery. Steal it. No unmanly things, so I don't move beyond being an idiotic version of a Viking. Burn stuff. Grab that fisherman's daughter, because I'm a total piece of shit, but I have to be a true Ironborn, blah, blah, blah. "? 

 

Besides Asha, and maybe Qarl and the Reader, the Ironborn are complete idiots and I'm honestly surprised anyone, besides heaps of skeletons, live on them islands. 

Weeds are hard to get rid of. 

[SeanF]

16 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He's an Ironborn, do any of them even have enough cognitive ability to think beyond "Oooh, glittery. Steal it. No unmanly things, so I don't move beyond being an idiotic version of a Viking. Burn stuff. Grab that fisherman's daughter, because I'm a total piece of shit, but I have to be a true Ironborn, blah, blah, blah. "? 

 

Besides Asha, and maybe Qarl and the Reader, the Ironborn are complete idiots and I'm honestly surprised anyone, besides heaps of skeletons, live on them islands. 

I liked comment I read.

”Every time a Greyjoy is born, the gods toss a coin.  On one side is a moron, and on the other a rapist.  Sometimes both.”

[Arthur Peres]

On 11/25/2021 at 6:47 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

He's an Ironborn, do any of them even have enough cognitive ability to think beyond "Oooh, glittery. Steal it. No unmanly things, so I don't move beyond being an idiotic version of a Viking. Burn stuff. Grab that fisherman's daughter, because I'm a total piece of shit, but I have to be a true Ironborn, blah, blah, blah. "? 

 

Quellon was doing fine until he listened to Balon... then he died.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Quellon was doing fine until he listened to Balon... then he died.

At least he went out fighting, even in his old age he was a badass. While Balon sat in Pyke the whole time during both of his rebellions, so much for being a glorious reaver and leader and paying the iron price. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

On 11/25/2021 at 10:47 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

He's an Ironborn, do any of them even have enough cognitive ability to think beyond "Oooh, glittery. Steal it. No unmanly things, so I don't move beyond being an idiotic version of a Viking. Burn stuff. Grab that fisherman's daughter, because I'm a total piece of shit, but I have to be a true Ironborn, blah, blah, blah. "? 

 

Besides Asha, and maybe Qarl and the Reader, the Ironborn are complete idiots and I'm honestly surprised anyone, besides heaps of skeletons, live on them islands. 

Actually, until their last kings especially Harren the Black, the Hoares were in fact really cunning and pragmatic rulers to the Ironborn with them embracing the cultural exchanges with the Andals and the mainland, developping friendlier political and economic ties with the mainland, strongly developping the trade with the rest of Westeros and with Essos and the Summer Isles with the Ironborn using their bold sailing and maritime experience to their advantage and the Ironborn reavers serving as corsairs and mercenaries in exchange of huge fees, while welcoming and protecting the Faith of the Seven and fighting thralldom and the Drowned Men.

Even their invasion of the Riverlands was done in a really cunning way with them having learned to mix land warfare with water warfare, a lesson that the Greyjoys would fail to learn, and using the riverlanders' ressentment of the Durrandons and divisions to their advantage.