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Alyn Oakenfist

Did Balon make a single smart decision ever?

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16 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

he did exile Euron, that's hard to disagree with.

 

No that smart, the guy ploted his murder and came back. Balon should have imprisoned Euron for life or send him to the wall, letting he run free may be his worst decision.

17 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Oh, and he planned to have Asha as heir, that's really smart considering the other candidates.

That is also pretty stupid, he was creating a sucession mess just like Viserys I did... 

 

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3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Balon sure is a special kind of moron, whose mistakes make Moon Boy look like a better potential leader. The only question is, did he do anything smart as Lord Reaver? Like at all?

He was smart enough to notice that Asha would be the best heir to his seat, regardless of her sex. 
 

EDIT: I didn’t realise it was already said.

Edited by James Steller

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24 minutes ago, James Steller said:

He was smart enough to notice that Asha would be the best heir to his seat, regardless of her sex. 
 

EDIT: I didn’t realise it was already said.

Yeah, @Arthur Peres that's what I meant, Asha was by far the best choice for heir.

 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

No that smart, the guy ploted his murder and came back. Balon should have imprisoned Euron for life or send him to the wall, letting he run free may be his worst decision.

Does Westeros have life imprisonment? The Wall would have been a better option tho, I agree with that.

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28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Yeah, @Arthur Peres that's what I meant, Asha was by far the best choice for heir.

 

She isn't. her gender is a major problem for Westeros, and a bigger one for the IB. But even if we put that aside, she still inferior to Theon.

Unlike Asha that went along with Balon stupid plan to invade the North, Theon told on his face what would happen later on.

Theon than commits the great mistake of growing to attached to Winterfell, refused to leave the castle and ended up as a hostage of a maniac. Asha later on makes the same mistake at Deepwood Motte, just like Theon she refuses to leave the castle, even though the IB left the north, and ends up as hostage at the hands of Stannis. 

And even at the Kingsmoot the only thing Asha does is once again propose the deal Theon and Robb offered and she together with Balon turned off. But now there is no goodwill among the parts, the North if far weaker and the IT if far stronger than early on.

Everything Asha does is a lesser version of what Theon did.

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17 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

She isn't. her gender is a major problem for Westeros, and a bigger one for the IB. But even if we put that aside, she still inferior to Theon.

Unlike Asha that went along with Balon stupid plan to invade the North, Theon told on his face what would happen later on.

Theon than commits the great mistake of growing to attached to Winterfell, refused to leave the castle and ended up as a hostage of a maniac. Asha later on makes the same mistake at Deepwood Motte, just like Theon she refuses to leave the castle, even though the IB left the north, and ends up as hostage at the hands of Stannis. 

And even at the Kingsmoot the only thing Asha does is once again propose the deal Theon and Robb offered and she together with Balon turned off. But now there is no goodwill among the parts, the North if far weaker and the IT if far stronger than early on.

Everything Asha does is a lesser version of what Theon did.

But Theon is a stranger to the Ironborn, and Balons cares a lot about their culture, which Theon would change in a huge way, IMHO he would be more rejected than Asha. But also, Theon is too petty, vindictive, too far up his own ass and too stubborn to rule, he would be a shit ruler, while Asha is capable of accepting her mistakes and growing. (Does it come trough how much I love Theon? He's actually one of my faves)

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17 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

But Theon is a stranger to the Ironborn, and Balons cares a lot about their culture, which Theon would change in a huge way, IMHO he would be more rejected than Asha. But also, Theon is too petty, vindictive, too far up his own ass and too stubborn to rule, he would be a shit ruler, while Asha is capable of accepting her mistakes and growing. (Does it come trough how much I love Theon? He's actually one of my faves)

Theon is needy and unsure, not vindictive. He's also not petty, he gets rightly insulted when he is being robbed of his birthright.

The IB do not have a problem with him, only Balon and Aeron. After Balon's death the first thing the bannerman do is ask where is Theon, even thought they cannot even remember his name. The IB also have no problems with reforms, Quellon reformed and changed several things on the IB culture and as far as we know was never contested or chalenged by his people, Euron is also introducing new aspects like slavery and the only one that contest him is Rodrik.

Asha is just a stuborn as Theon, she refuses the council of her uncle and goes to the Kingsmoot, after being defeated she returned north the the castle she took, without manpower to keep it, and gets captured.

She makes the same mistakes that he did, she is just as ambition as he was, her deeds are also lesser versions of his. and she has less foresight than he had.

Edited by Arthur Peres

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He married well.

Also, in ACOK his daughter is in her mid/late twenties and not married, so we can say that he didn’t push her for marriage and grandchildren at a young age (unlike other Westerosi fathers): Asha is daddy’s little girl and Theon is mommy’s little boy. :P

Edited by Gingin

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On 10/11/2020 at 5:48 PM, Arthur Peres said:

No that smart, the guy ploted his murder and came back. Balon should have imprisoned Euron for life or send him to the wall, letting he run free may be his worst decision.

 

Agree on sending Euron to the NW. Shows how foolish Balon was not to see ahead there. Either overly self confident or just dumb. Idk which.

Is it even worth looking at his actions through a modern societal lens? Westeros isn’t know for its equality. The Iron Islands even less so, I would argue.

The dude allowed Salt Wives - that kills any argument that he was somehow not patriarchal. Unmarried grown daughter... I would not cite that as evidence of Balon being progressive. It is evidence of a badass female - cant give Balon credit for that!  Asha as heir was a good choice in one sense, sharp as a tack and strong etc. - but did he really think she would be acclaimed as Queen? Another lack of foresight with Euron.

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1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

The dude allowed Salt Wives - that kills any argument that he was somehow not patriarchal. Unmarried grown daughter... I would not cite that as evidence of Balon being progressive. It is evidence of a badass female - cant give Balon credit for that!  Asha as heir was a good choice in one sense, sharp as a tack and strong etc. - but did he really think she would be acclaimed as Queen?

Yes, Balon allowed salt wives: they are not Ironborn, but weak greenlanders (I strongly hope that in the future books someone puts an end to this practice). Of course, he wasn’t a real feminist and he wasn’t progressive. What I believe is that he loved his daughter and that he gave her freedom. He let her play with axes and didn’t stop her. He didn’t tell her to work on her stitches. He didn’t oblige her to get married at twelve, he didn’t oblige her to marry Erik Ironmaker or Tris Botley. Asha is a wonderful and strong badass lady who is the captain of her own ship, but her father needed only a few words to get her to do his bidding: Euron is Euron, yet Balon sent him away and he had to comply. Maybe he was waiting for the right occasion/right match, maybe he saw her as his precious little princess, the fact is that Asha wasn’t forced to marry at a young age... and this is a good thing from a father-daughter perspective!

Balon could have easily named Victarion or Rodrik Harlaw as his heir, but he wanted Asha, his own Ironborn daughter who never disappointed him, as Queen. He had faith in her. This was his plan, until the return of Theon. In all Westeros, a son comes before a daughter and Balon agreed to test his son...

Quote

“A boy they took," his father said. "What are you now?" 

"A man," Theon answered. "Your blood and your heir." 

Lord Balon grunted. "We shall see." 

"You shall," Theon promised. 

 

Edited by Gingin

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On 10/11/2020 at 3:50 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Balon sure is a special kind of moron, whose mistakes make Moon Boy look like a better potential leader. The only question is, did he do anything smart as Lord Reaver? Like at all?

Yea, he basically conquered the north.

On 10/11/2020 at 5:48 PM, Arthur Peres said:

No that smart, the guy ploted his murder and came back. Balon should have imprisoned Euron for life or send him to the wall, letting he run free may be his worst decision.

That is also pretty stupid, he was creating a sucession mess just like Viserys I did... 

 

Hindsight, without a doubt. Like Tywin should have kinslayed baby Tyrion. Thing is, Euron didnt do anything wrong. Well, at least not illegal. Its unfeasible that Balon would have killed or arrested his brother for sleeping with their sister in law.

I wouldn't say he created the succession crisis, thats just an ironborn trait. This whole business of a first sons first son and so forth is strictly greenland law. Ironborn are more like dothraki or wildlings and follow the strong. It just so happens that just like the dothraki and wildlings, the strong is almost exclusively the first sons first son and so forth. 

23 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

returned north the the castle she took, without manpower to keep it, and gets captured.

She makes the same mistakes that he did, 

Lol so true. Different circumstances but yes, same mistakes. 

2 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Westeros isn’t know for its equality. The Iron Islands even less so, I would argue.

Idk about that. Ashas a captain with a voice at the kingsmoot, thats not Westeros like

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hindsight, without a doubt. Like Tywin should have kinslayed baby Tyrion. Thing is, Euron didnt do anything wrong. Well, at least not illegal. Its unfeasible that Balon would have killed or arrested his brother for sleeping with their sister in law.

 

Euron raped and tormented Aeron and Urrigon, cucked Victarion and everyone in the family seems to think of him as crazy, insane or dangerous. The only reason I excluded exectution is because of kinslaying, but that is what should have been done with Euron.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hindsight, without a doubt. Like Tywin should have kinslayed baby Tyrion. Thing is, Euron didnt do anything wrong. Well, at least not illegal. Its unfeasible that Balon would have killed or arrested his brother for sleeping with their sister in law.

 

Other than Balon, no one contest that Theon was the heir, even the dudes that cannot even remember his name.

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10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol so true. Different circumstances but yes, same mistakes. 

 

Yeah, same mistakes, but with lesser prizes, while also showing incapable of learning from the mistakes of others. She is a lesser version of Theon in every positive aspect and carries the same level towards his negative traits.

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1 hour ago, Gingin said:

Balon could have easily named Victarion or Rodrik Harlaw as his heir, but he wanted Asha, his own Ironborn daughter who never disappointed him, as Queen. He had faith in her. This was his plan, until the return of Theon. In all Westeros, a son comes before a daughter and Balon agreed to test his son...

 

Theon never had the chance to prove himself. Balon gave him a meaningless task while being watched by Aeron, and even after Theon saving the whole campaing for a while, taking Winterfell and stripping the north of leadership, Balon still called him weak.

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@Arthur Peres

I don’t know, I see it as a test. His son comes home after 10 years spent with the bad wolves: is he a true Ironborn or did he become an insipid weak greenlander? He didn’t make a very good first impression, but let’s give him a second chance, he’s not a coward. He cannot be given a big task, he has never captained a ship. But he has to start from somewhere, so now he’s in command of eight longships and Nuncle Aeron will report to Balon what happens at the Stony Shore.

I remember that in AFFC Aeron was very impressed that Theon took Winterfell, but I don’t remember Balon calling him weak after the taking of Winterfell: could you tell me where I can find that passage?

Edited by Gingin

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13 minutes ago, Gingin said:

I remember that in AFFC Aeron was very impressed that Theon took Winterfell, but I don’t remember Balon calling him weak after the taking of Winterfell: could you tell me where I can find that passage?

No problem. Here is the quote in AFFC in Aeron chapter

They had spoken in the Sea Tower, as the wind howled outside the windows and the waves crashed restlessly below. Balon had shaken his head in despair when he heard what Aeron had to tell him of his last remaining son. “The wolves have made a weakling of him, as I feared,” the king had said. “I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha’s way.”

 

 

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