Ashara & Brandon supposition

[KarlaOlivia_of_Winterfell]

I was thinking about Robert's Rebellion and a thought came to me. What if Lady Ashara Dayne caused the deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark and their companions? Let me explain, from Barristan we know that a Stark dishonored Ashara in the Harrenhal Tournament. It's just supposition but what if Brandon Stark abused Ashara. And when she found out about Lyanna and Rhaegar and saw Brandon show up at King's Landing she lied to King Aerys II or used Varys sought revenge for Brandon's affront. Telling to the king that those rumors of rebellion were true that she had hear the northern men conspiring against him. So in the same way Ned killed her brother, Arthur, she would have killed Ned’s brother. What do you think of this crazy thought?

[kissdbyfire]

There's nothing in the text to support anything like this IMO. 

Also, Barristan thinks that Ashara "looked to Stark". That could mean a Stark dishonoured her or... not. At this point we're missing too many pieces to complete the puzzle. 

[U. B. Cool]

On 10/12/2020 at 11:44 AM, UlisesJV said:

I was thinking about Robert's Rebellion and a thought came to me. What if Lady Ashara Dayne caused the deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark and their companions? Let me explain, from Barristan we know that a Stark dishonored Ashara in the Harrenhal Tournament. It's just supposition but what if Brandon Stark abused Ashara. And when she found out about Lyanna and Rhaegar and saw Brandon show up at King's Landing she lied to King Aerys II or used Varys sought revenge for Brandon's affront. Telling to the king that those rumors of rebellion were true that she had hear the northern men conspiring against him. So in the same way Ned killed her brother, Arthur, she would have killed Ned’s brother. What do you think of this crazy thought?

Brandon was the perp who dishonored Ashara.  Ned comforted Ashara because that's the story of his life.  He was the considerate brother who always cleaned up his family's dirty messes and covered up their scandals.  We hardly know anything about Ashara.  She was probably head over heels in love with Brandon.  We know a similar lady in the north who lost her virginity to this guy and still dreams of his poker.  I don't think Ashara would manipulate her king and his adviser into doing anything to harm Brandon.  What happened to Brandon was all his fault.  Coming into the Red Keep with his armed posse and then threatening to murder the royal family!  I'm surprised those fools were not tortured and killed on the spot.  Brandon was an idiot with the wolf's blood running in his veins.  Lyanna was the same according to Ned. 

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, U. B. Cool said:

Brandon was an idiot with the wolf's blood running in his veins.  Lyanna was the same according to Ned. 

[Nathan Stark]

It's not so cool to dis the Starks without textual support to back it up. Just sayin.'

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

It's not so cool to dis the Starks without textual support to back it up. Just sayin.'

You’re being too demanding! These outrageous and outlandish claims can’t be supported by the text, what’s a poster to do?

[Daeron the Daring]

On 10/12/2020 at 6:44 PM, UlisesJV said:

I was thinking about Robert's Rebellion and a thought came to me. What if Lady Ashara Dayne caused the deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark and their companions? Let me explain, from Barristan we know that a Stark dishonored Ashara in the Harrenhal Tournament. It's just supposition but what if Brandon Stark abused Ashara. And when she found out about Lyanna and Rhaegar and saw Brandon show up at King's Landing she lied to King Aerys II or used Varys sought revenge for Brandon's affront. Telling to the king that those rumors of rebellion were true that she had hear the northern men conspiring against him. So in the same way Ned killed her brother, Arthur, she would have killed Ned’s brother. What do you think of this crazy thought?

Well, we know a bunch of things about Brandon and his "affairs". First of all, we can almost be sure that Lady Dustin wasn't the first woman he was with. Yet, according to her, the two loved each other so much that Brandon wanted to marry her. But his father had his southron ambitions, and betrother him to Catelyn, even if Brandon had no interest in her. Tho this isn't that likely since in Catelyn's memories Brandon was meant for him, and he lived her so much. Catelyn was a beautiful girl in her youth, and Brandon too is mentioned as being hansome. If Brandon had the chance to choose whom to marry, it would've been Barbrey. But he found a new interest in Catelyn, and the thing seemed to work. As far as I know, there is no textual or any evidence for this. Why would he cheat on her betrothed? He wasn't that dishonorable, I think. So why would he do anything with Ashara? He even asked her for a dance with his brother, bc Ned was too shy.

We also don't know what actually means dishonoring, since the word was used by Barristan.

We also don't know for sure if she was dishonored by a Stark. But if he was "dishonored" by a Stark, it was rather Ned than Brandon. Again, we don't know what dishonoration means in the given text.

I don't have the actual thext with me, but if I remember correctly, Barristan tought that he might have had a chance to talk with Ashara if she wasn't that obsessed with "Stark". He also did not understand what she saw on him. This might also refer to Ned, since Brandon is described as charming and handsome, and Catelyn while comparing the two, admits that Ned isn't that good-looking as his brother was (Not that Ned wasn't goodlooking, just not as much as Brandon).

All we know is that someone impregnated Ashara at the Tourney, and Brandon, just like many others, danced with him.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

We also don't know what actually means dishonoring, since the word was used by Barristan.

Agree, we don’t know exactly what Barristan meant, or even if he really knew what happened w/ Ashara and whoever. 

2 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

We also don't know for sure if she was dishonored by a Stark. But if he was "dishonored" by a Stark, it was rather Ned than Brandon. Again, we don't know what dishonoration means in the given text.

Disagree. I think if Ashara had a fling w/ a Stark, it was Brandon. 

2 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

I don't have the actual thext with me, but if I remember correctly, Barristan tought that he might have had a chance if Ashara wasn't that obsessed with "Stark".

Barristan thinks that if he’d won the tourney, he’d have named Ashara QoLaB, and maybe she would have looked to him instead of “Stark”. 
 

ADwD, The Kingbreaker

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

2 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

All we know is that someone impregnated Ashara at the Tourney, and Brandon, just like many others, danced with him.

We don’t actually know that, but it is possible. Maybe even likely, but still, we don’t have irrefutable confirmation.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agree, we don’t know exactly what Barristan meant, or even if he really knew what happened w/ Ashara and whoever. 

Disagree. I think if Ashara had a fling w/ a Stark, it was Brandon. 

Barristan thinks that if he’d won the tourney, he’d have named Ashara QoLaB, and maybe she would have looked to him instead of “Stark”. 
 

ADwD, The Kingbreaker

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

I corrected my reply by the time you wrote yours, but yes, that's what Barristan was thinking about. But you also have to take into account what I wrote plus in my earlier reply and the rumours of Ned and Ashara.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, HerblYY said:

I corrected my reply by the time you wrote yours, but yes, that's what Barristan was thinking about. But you also have to take into account what I wrote plus in my earlier reply and the rumours of Ned and Ashara.

Not sure what you mean here?

[CamiloRP]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Disagree. I think if Ashara had a fling w/ a Stark, it was Brandon. 

I'm really interested in this, why do you think that?

[Curled Finger]

On 10/12/2020 at 8:44 AM, UlisesJV said:

I was thinking about Robert's Rebellion and a thought came to me. What if Lady Ashara Dayne caused the deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark and their companions? Let me explain, from Barristan we know that a Stark dishonored Ashara in the Harrenhal Tournament. It's just supposition but what if Brandon Stark abused Ashara. And when she found out about Lyanna and Rhaegar and saw Brandon show up at King's Landing she lied to King Aerys II or used Varys sought revenge for Brandon's affront. Telling to the king that those rumors of rebellion were true that she had hear the northern men conspiring against him. So in the same way Ned killed her brother, Arthur, she would have killed Ned’s brother. What do you think of this crazy thought?

Welcome.  Talk about a can of worms.  We know Barristan thinks Ashara was dishonored.  We also know Barristan thinks Ashara turned to Stark.  I've never come across any indication that Brandon Stark was a rapist or even a mean person.   He was a hot head and liked the girls, that doesn't make him a rapist, particularly in light of his asking the lady to dance with his shy brother.    Doesn't fit, friend.  I don't often see Ashara Dayne painted in the light betrayal and I don't think Aerys actually needed anyone to feed his all consuming fires of madness.    

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm really interested in this, why do you think that?

Well, most who defend a fling between Ashara and Ned use the argument that Ned danced with her, after Brandon asked her to. Meaning, Ned had this huge crush on Ashara but couldn’t bring himself to ask her to dance. I think it makes no sense tbh. Ned is not a party animal, he’s quiet and doesn’t really seem to be into what he’d consider frivolities. I don’t think this is something that only became a trait for him later on, or the author would have clued as in. But he doesn’t, Meera’s story describes Ned as the “quiet wolf”, even at 18. Brandon on the other hand was a ladies’ man, with a much more flamboyant and outgoing personality, from the little we learn of him. So, I think Brandon, who was having a fling (or something more even?) with Ashara, asked her to dance w/ Ned, who had apparently been on a bench the whole night up to that point. Simply because he wanted his younger, quiet brother to have some fun and enjoy the feast, and what better way than having the most beautiful woman there dance with him? I think something like this is much more in character for both Ned and Brandon. 

[CamiloRP]

40 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, most who defend a fling between Ashara and Ned use the argument that Ned danced with her, after Brandon asked her to. Meaning, Ned had this huge crush on Ashara but couldn’t bring himself to ask her to dance. I think it makes no sense tbh. Ned is not a party animal, he’s quiet and doesn’t really seem to be into what he’d consider frivolities. I don’t think this is something that only became a trait for him later on, or the author would have clued as in. But he doesn’t, Meera’s story describes Ned as the “quiet wolf”, even at 18. Brandon on the other hand was a ladies’ man, with a much more flamboyant and outgoing personality, from the little we learn of him. So, I think Brandon, who was having a fling (or something more even?) with Ashara, asked her to dance w/ Ned, who had apparently been on a bench the whole night up to that point. Simply because he wanted his younger, quiet brother to have some fun and enjoy the feast, and what better way than having the most beautiful woman there dance with him? I think something like this is much more in character for both Ned and Brandon. 

that's cool!! Never thought of that

[corbon]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, most who defend a fling between Ashara and Ned use the argument that Ned danced with her, after Brandon asked her to. Meaning, Ned had this huge crush on Ashara but couldn’t bring himself to ask her to dance. I think it makes no sense tbh. Ned is not a party animal, he’s quiet and doesn’t really seem to be into what he’d consider frivolities. I don’t think this is something that only became a trait for him later on, or the author would have clued as in. But he doesn’t, Meera’s story describes Ned as the “quiet wolf”, even at 18. Brandon on the other hand was a ladies’ man, with a much more flamboyant and outgoing personality, from the little we learn of him. So, I think Brandon, who was having a fling (or something more even?) with Ashara, asked her to dance w/ Ned, who had apparently been on a bench the whole night up to that point. Simply because he wanted his younger, quiet brother to have some fun and enjoy the feast, and what better way than having the most beautiful woman there dance with him? I think something like this is much more in character for both Ned and Brandon. 

On top of that, you've got the information from Barristan. 
If Ned was responsible for Ashara's fate, an unmarried and abandoned pregnancy and eventual suicide, from a sparkling position at court, despite a brother on the KG and best friend of the crown Prince... how is it that Barristan apparently respects Ned and holds no rancour? Barristan showed no dislike of Ned in AGoT when they were on the small council together.

More importantly, Barristan thinks, when Dany is clearly dismissing Quentyn, that young girls 'always' go for 'fire' men.

Quote

Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl's heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.
 

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.

Now thats about Dany. But what experience does Barristan have with young girls to be making a general observation here? He's a KG, has been almost all his life, sworn off any attachments to girls.
Except... Ashara. Thats a young girl we know he was paying close attention to...

Now consider what he thinks about mud men and fire men.
Fire men consume you (burn out fast), have passion, laughter.
Mud men are cooling, nourishing, slower, growth.
Which of these is Brandon Stark? Which is Ned Stark?

Ashara seems to have chosen a fire man. And been consumed and burnt by it.

[corbon]

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

I have to admit, when I read this in ASoS, I added it in my head to the various Ashara/Ned rumours and thought "ok, there's maybe some of the basis for those rumours". I knew it didn't tally with Ned's own thoughts, with Robert's charactersisation of young Ned etc, but I didn't think too much of it.  

It wasn't until ADwD was released, when we got both Barristan's thoughts about Ashara and young girls and fire men, and Lady Barbrey's characterisation of Brandon, that I looked at this passage afresh.

You can read it, as I first did, as suggesting Ned wanted to dance with Ashara.
Or you can read it, as I re-read it, as Brandon wanting to get his quiet brother 'into the party' and prevent him from 'missing out' on the biggest party of his lifetime.

As with lots of things in ASoIaF, you need to search deeper than the raw words on page and put all the information you have into the context to figure things out. 

Also, who knows what new information GRRM will give us that makes us re-view what we 'know' now?

[Daeron the Daring]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure what you mean here?

I just said that when Barristan has his flashback of Harrenhall, he admits that he did not understand what Ashara saw on "Stark", along with what would he do if he wins the tourney. 

Now, remember that Brandon is described as a fuckboy, while Ned not that much, but still kinda good-looking.

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, HerblYY said:

I just said that when Barristan has his flashback of Harrenhall, he admits that he did not understand what Ashara saw on "Stark", along with what would he do if he wins the tourney. 

Now, remember that Brandon is described as a fuckboy, while Ned not that much, but still kinda good-looking.

I take it you’re making an argument for Ned and Ashara instead of Brandon and Ashara? If so, I find the argument flawed because it’s not based on what Barristan thinks. He never thinks about what Ashara “saw” in whichever Stark she had a thing with. Yes, the word “look” is used, but the context and how Barristan phrases it in his head are important.
Also, he doesn’t think of Ned as good looking. He’s also thinking about Dany’s apparent taste in men, and he thinks of Ashara. See @corbon’s post above. 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I take it you’re making an argument for Ned and Ashara instead of Brandon and Ashara? If so, I find the argument flawed because it’s not based on what Barristan thinks. He never thinks about what Ashara “saw” in whichever Stark she had a thing with. Yes, the word “look” is used, but the context and how Barristan phrases it in his head are important.
Also, he doesn’t think of Ned as good looking. He’s also thinking about Dany’s apparent taste in men, and he thinks of Ashara. See @corbon’s post above. 

It looks like the Daynes think Ned and Ashara had something going on. Edric tells Arya his aunt Allyria told him Ned and Ashara fall in love at Harrenhal. Allyria would've heard it from someone maybe Ashara herself. Really we'll probably never find out if it was Ned or Brandon, a argument can be made both imo. 

[kissdbyfire]

42 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

It looks like the Daynes think Ned and Ashara had something going on. Edric tells Arya his aunt Allyria told him Ned and Ashara fall in love at Harrenhal. Allyria would've heard it from someone maybe Ashara herself. Really we'll probably never find out if it was Ned or Brandon, a argument can be made both imo. 

Edric says that and in the same convo tells Arya that he is Jon’s milk brother b/c he was nursed by Jon mum, Wylla. So, Edric doesn’t really know what he’s talking about imo.