Ashara & Brandon supposition

[Alexis-something-Rose]

19 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

It looks like the Daynes think Ned and Ashara had something going on. Edric tells Arya his aunt Allyria told him Ned and Ashara fall in love at Harrenhal. Allyria would've heard it from someone maybe Ashara herself. Really we'll probably never find out if it was Ned or Brandon, a argument can be made both imo. 

But Edric is repeating what he's been told. And look how the two Neds in the story are both saying that Wylla is Jon's mother. So it's not a stretch that the story Ned Dayne tells Arya about Ned Stark and his aunt Ashara is the story that Ned Stark and the Daynes he interacted with at Starfall plotted together. The story protects Jon and it helps shine Ashara's tarnished halo if she had really gotten pregnant.

I've actually been wondering for a while if Ashara and Wylla aren't one and the same. 

[The Green Bard]

On 10/31/2020 at 7:57 PM, U. B. Cool said:

We know a similar lady in the north who lost her virginity to this guy and still dreams of his poker.  I don't think Ashara would manipulate her king and his adviser into doing anything to harm Brandon.  What happened to Brandon was all his fault.  Coming into the Red Keep with his armed posse and then threatening to murder the royal family!  I'm surprised those fools were not tortured and killed on the spot.  Brandon was an idiot with the wolf's blood running in his veins.  Lyanna was the same according to Ned. 

I've argued in another thread that she may have gone to Ned in the vale to try to get him and Robert to de-escalate, only to arrive too late, after Rickard and Brandon were already dead.  This seem to me to be full in keeping with your idea that she wouldn't try to bring harm to him, quite the opposite IMHO.  I agree that he'd already brought that upon himself. 

[The Green Bard]

10 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I've actually been wondering for a while if Ashara and Wylla aren't one and the same. 

This I doubt, but don't discount completely.  Allyria and Edric certainly are unreliable though, because they both would be too young (a presumption with Allyria) to have any first-hand knowledge, and secondhand knowledge of such secrets is questionable to say the least.  One thing I do wonder is if Allyria is Ashara's daughter by Brandon. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 10/31/2020 at 7:57 PM, U. B. Cool said:

Brandon was the perp who dishonored Ashara.  Ned comforted Ashara because that's the story of his life.  He was the considerate brother who always cleaned up his family's dirty messes and covered up their scandals.  We hardly know anything about Ashara.  She was probably head over heels in love with Brandon.  We know a similar lady in the north who lost her virginity to this guy and still dreams of his poker.  I don't think Ashara would manipulate her king and his adviser into doing anything to harm Brandon.  What happened to Brandon was all his fault.  Coming into the Red Keep with his armed posse and then threatening to murder the royal family!  I'm surprised those fools were not tortured and killed on the spot.  Brandon was an idiot with the wolf's blood running in his veins.  Lyanna was the same according to Ned. 

The Starks are not known for being smart.  Bran's Uncle Brandon was an idiot.  If anybody manipulated the situation to spark the war it's Littlefinger.  

[LynnS]

On 10/12/2020 at 11:44 AM, UlisesJV said:

from Barristan we know that a Stark dishonored Ashara in the Harrenhal Tournament.

We don't actually know that a Stark dishonored Ashera in that way.  I think Barriston is referring to himself and the fact that if he had been a better knight and unhorsed Rhaegar;  he would have got the girl.  He is secretly in love with Ashera and clearly feels that she should have been honored as QoLaB. The dishonor belongs to him because he didn't win the tourney.  He indulges the fantasy that if he had been the hero of the day,  Ashera would only have eyes for him.  So, B+A is a no for me.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

On 11/3/2020 at 8:08 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But Edric is repeating what he's been told. And look how the two Neds in the story are both saying that Wylla is Jon's mother. So it's not a stretch that the story Ned Dayne tells Arya about Ned Stark and his aunt Ashara is the story that Ned Stark and the Daynes he interacted with at Starfall plotted together. The story protects Jon and it helps shine Ashara's tarnished halo if she had really gotten pregnant.

I've actually been wondering for a while if Ashara and Wylla aren't one and the same. 

I think it highly likely that Ned and the Daynes came up with the story of Wylla being Jon's mom together. Idk about the Ned and Ashara story tho. Making up a story about Ned and Ashara helps Ashara how? She still got pregnant regardless. 

[corbon]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

We don't actually know that a Stark dishonored Ashera in that way.  I think Barriston is referring to himself and the fact that if he had been a better knight and unhorsed Rhaegar;  he would have got the girl.  He is secretly in love with Ashera and clearly feels that she should have been honored as QoLaB. The dishonor belongs to him because he didn't win the tourney.  He indulges the fantasy that if he had been the hero of the day,  Ashera would only have eyes for him.  So, B+A is a no for me.

I agree with all of that, more or less, except the end bit. How do Barristan's beliefs invalidate B+A? He himself thinks she didn't know he was crushing on her. 

4 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I think it highly likely that Ned and the Daynes came up with the story of Wylla being Jon's mom together.

Then why does Ned get angry and closemouthed about it with Robert? Why does he shut down Cat asking about Jon's mum when he has his story already sorted out and promulgated elsewhere?

Far more likely that Ned has nothing to do with the Wylla story. Its merely the Dayne's 'natural' answer to the 'mystery' of the motherless bastard. Ned rode in to Starfall with Wylla nursing Jon. Conclusions were made (and reported to Robert). Everyone else doesn't know that much detail, so makes the next natural conclusion, Ashara Dayne (which the Dayne's know is false so don't even think of).

4 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Idk about the Ned and Ashara story tho. Making up a story about Ned and Ashara helps Ashara how? She still got pregnant regardless. 

Better the tragic love smashed by politics and war than a sordid little nothing-burger where the guy was already promised and abandoned her completely.
Not much better, for her, but its a much better 'family tale' for the young sister who might actually be her child.

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, corbon said:

I agree with all of that, more or less, except the end bit. How do Barristan's beliefs invalidate B+A? He himself thinks she didn't know he was crushing on her.

I simply don't believe the premise that the dishonor is related to anything other than Ashera not being crowned QoLaB. 

[corbon]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I simply don't believe the premise that the dishonor is related to anything other than Ashera not being crowned QoLaB. 

How is that a dishonor? Is every woman in the world but one dishonoured every tournament?

How does that fit with Barristan's belief she later had a child, but no mention of any husband or marriage by anyone anywhere? Surely you admit that an unmarried pregnancy is a dishonour for her?

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, corbon said:

How is that a dishonor? Is every woman in the world but one dishonoured every tournament?

IThis has nothing to do with what Ashera thinks.  In Barristan's mind, his belief is that she was dishonored.  Being crowned QoLaB is the honor she was denied in his eyes.  In his own mind, if he had been a better knight, he would have won the tournament and Ashera would have recieved the honor she was due. So it's his fault she was dishonored, in his mind.  His fantasy is that if he had won the Tourney and been the hero for the day, that he would have got the girl, instead of Ned Stark.  This has nothing to do with Brandon or Ashera and everything to do with Selmy. 

[corbon]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

It's Barristan's belief that she was dishonored. 

Yes.

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Being crowned QoLaB is the honor she was denied in his eyes. 

Being denied an honour is not a dis-honour.

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

In his own mind, if he had been a better knight, he would have won the tournament and Ashera would have recieved the honor she was due.  His fantasy is that if he had won the Tourney and been the hero for the day, that he would have got the girl,

Yes.

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

instead of Ned Stark. 

He makes no indication that Ned Stark got the girl. He makes multiple counter-indications in fact. 

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

This has nothing to do with Brandon as far as I'm concerned. 

Agreed.
But indisputably, Barristan believes she had a baby. Out of wedlock. Is that not a dishonour? So surely, she must be dishonoured by more than just not being honoured as QoLaB by Barristan, no?

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

But indisputably, Barristan believes she had a baby. Out of wedlock. Is that not a dishonour? So surely, she must be dishonoured by more than just not being honoured as QoLaB by Barristan, no?

Well this didn't happen at the tournament and the Stark who fell in love with her at first sight was Ned.  I daresay it was mutual. That's what Selmy is bemoaning. He didn't get the girl.

I'm looking at the dishonor in the context of the tourney.  The crown of QoLaB is an honor that is bestowed and which Selmy believe should have gone to Ashera.  Because he wasn't a better knight, she was dishonored by Selmy himself.  What is a knight without his honor? It's self recrimination that is on display.

[corbon]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well this didn't happen at the tournament and the Stark who fell in love with her at first sight was Ned.  I daresay it was mutual. That's what Selmy is bemoaning. He didn't get the girl.

He never tried for the girl, yes.

But he makes no indication that Ned Stark 'got the girl'.

Quote

I'm looking at the dishonor in the context of the tourney. 

Yes.

Quote

The crown of QoLaB is an honor that is bestowed and which Selmy believe should have gone to Ashera.  Because he wasn't a better knight, she was dishonored by Selmy himself.

So your theory is that Barristan is the man who dishonoured her at Harrenhal. That could work for his mind, but how does it work in hers, since he never revealed himself to her?

Quote

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. 

How is she possibly mad with grief for Barristan when a) she never knew he loved her, b) he's still 'available' (or at least his status in that regard has not changed) and c) he's not dead?

She was dishonoured by a man at Harrenhal, or so Barristan believes.
And Barristan also believes that grief for that man, may be one of the reasons she threw herself for the tower. Why would he think she would be grieving for him when she never knew he loved her?

I think e can safely say that Barristan believes someone else dishonoured her at Harrenhal, someone she might by mad for grief for.

[corbon]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well this didn't happen at the tournament

The baby no, but the conception, the actual dishonour, quite possibly.

 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, corbon said:

So your theory is that Barristan is the man who dishonoured her at Harrenhal. That could work for his mind, but how does it work in hers, since he never revealed himself to her?

They are not connected.  She doesn't have to know that he dishonored her in his own mind and feels no grief about it.  

22 minutes ago, corbon said:

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. 

He may have learned the story of Ashera's death or the story that was put out around it.  He is making a lot of assumptions here isn't he and how reliable is he as a source of information anyway.   He doesn't really know if another man dishonored her but he's putting the blame somewhere.

Regardless, B+A and N+A don't work for me.

BTW: I don't do theories.  I ask questions.

[corbon]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

They are not connected.  She doesn't have to know that he dishonored her in his own mind and feels no grief about it.  

Agreed. But he does have to think that she might do. Yet he thinks she never knew he loved her. So whey would she grieve over him? That makes no sense.

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

He may have learned the story of Ashera's death or the story that was put out around it.  He is making a lot of assumptions here isn't he and how reliable is he as a source of information anyway.   

Oh, agreed. He's completely speculating, possibly on wrong information basis anyway.

But his speculations should be internally consistent.

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

He doesn't really know if another man dishonored her but he's putting the blame somewhere.

His words indicates that she was dishonoured by a man at Harrenhal and that she might be mad with grief for that man. That pretty clearly indicates he does know (or strongly suspect) who dishonoured her, and that she has a reason to grieve over that man. 

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Regardless, B+A and N+A don't work for me.

Thats fine. I'm just probing here because your stated reason appears to be incompatible with the text. There may well be other reasons too. I'm not trying to convince you that B+A is a thing, nor N+A. Just tugging at a thread that is loose, seeing where it follows. I'm not meaning to pick on you or drive any angle, just... OCD almost, over such stray threads (its my wife who's much more OCD in real life, I'm pretty chill, but mentally in things like this, thats my little OCD area, sorry)

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, corbon said:

OCD almost, over such stray threads (its my wife who's much more OCD in real life, I'm pretty chill, but mentally in things like this, thats my little OCD area, sorry)

That's OK.  Don't worry about.  I'm generally not that taken up with xyz stuff anymore.  He isn't very specific about the nature of the dishonor unless it has something to do with a broken marriage contract.  I can see that being the case but I don't think that was on the table at Harrenhall.   Maybe he thought Stark led her on and his jealousy is showing.  But I'm not sure he would be privy to any of that either.   Maybe we'll find out more if he ever runs into Septa Lemore.  I'd trust him to make that identification  

[FictionIsntReal]

On 10/31/2020 at 6:57 PM, U. B. Cool said:

Coming into the Red Keep with his armed posse and then threatening to murder the royal family!

He was specifically targeting Rhaegar, not the rest of the royal family, and demanding that he "come out" for this rather than acting like he was going to break into anyone's quarters. Brandon had recently dueled Littlefinger over Catelyn, it's a rather simple inference that he wanted to duel Rhaegar to achieve satisfaction for the wrong done to House Stark.

[Pontius Pilate]

Brandon goes to speak on his brother's behalf but took advantage of Ashara in the heat of the moment.  A little too much alcohol and an uninhibited Ashara contributed to his bad decision at the time.  They had sex and Brandon must have boasted about it afterwards.  I don't think the story went outside a small circle of people but it travelled far enough to have reached Barristan.  

Ned's  opinion of Ashara shows no anger towards her.  So he either did not know or she didn't orchestrate the deaths of the Starks.  Rickard, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Aerys, and Robert are the ones to blame for what happened.  Rickard and Robert for plotting to do something which they knew the king could not allow them to do.  Rhaegar for sheltering Lyanna.  And Aerys for not handling the matter more discreetly.  

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

On 11/4/2020 at 3:03 PM, corbon said:

I agree with all of that, more or less, except the end bit. How do Barristan's beliefs invalidate B+A? He himself thinks she didn't know he was crushing on her. 

Then why does Ned get angry and closemouthed about it with Robert? Why does he shut down Cat asking about Jon's mum when he has his story already sorted out and promulgated elsewhere?

Far more likely that Ned has nothing to do with the Wylla story. Its merely the Dayne's 'natural' answer to the 'mystery' of the motherless bastard. Ned rode in to Starfall with Wylla nursing Jon. Conclusions were made (and reported to Robert). Everyone else doesn't know that much detail, so makes the next natural conclusion, Ashara Dayne (which the Dayne's know is false so don't even think of).

Better the tragic love smashed by politics and war than a sordid little nothing-burger where the guy was already promised and abandoned her completely.
Not much better, for her, but its a much better 'family tale' for the young sister who might actually be her child.

Ned doesn't get angry about it with Robert. More like he wants to get the convocation over with. Ned already told Robert that Wylla was Jon's mom before AGoT. Idk why Ned didn't tell Cat the Wylla story, maybe he didn't want to lie even more to her, maybe he didn't want Jon to hear about later on. Or some other reason.