Ashara & Brandon supposition

[corbon]

On 11/7/2020 at 4:08 AM, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Ned doesn't get angry about it with Robert.

 

Quote

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

 

On 11/7/2020 at 4:08 AM, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

More like he wants to get the convocation over with. Ned already told Robert that Wylla was Jon's mom before AGoT.

 

Quote

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

Ned tld Robert the name of the woman he was thinking of once. Ned did not, as far as we know, tell Robert she was his bastard's mother. Robert assumes that here, but we do not know where he first heard that. The only thing Robert says Ned told him once was the name. 

On 11/7/2020 at 4:08 AM, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Idk why Ned didn't tell Cat the Wylla story, maybe he didn't want to lie even more to her, maybe he didn't want Jon to hear about later on. Or some other reason. 

Maybe Ned is actually a consistent character?

[FictionIsntReal]

On 11/8/2020 at 12:20 PM, corbon said:

Ned tld Robert the name of the woman he was thinking of once. Ned did not, as far as we know, tell Robert she was his bastard's mother.

 

That's clearly what Robert is referring to. Robert asks for the name, specifying she's Ned's bastard's mother, and Ned responds with Wylla. We can infer Ned had told Robert that was the mother before, and Robert simply forgot the name. There is no reason for Robert to ask the name of a woman Robert himself is thinking of with no connection to Ned, and no reason for him to be thinking of Wylla (whose name he can't remember) if Ned hadn't already told him about her.

Quote

Robert assumes that here, but we do not know where he first heard that. The only thing Robert says Ned told him once was the name. 

Maybe Ned is actually a consistent character?

He's not "assuming" it, he's asking a question (whose answer he's heard before) and Ned's giving an answer.

Quote

Maybe Ned is actually a consistent character?

No, he gives Robert an actual answer (which Edric Dayne later confirms), while insisting that Cat isn't to ask such questions and forbidding anyone to speak of Ashara's name (which is why his kids haven't heard of her, much to Edric's surprise). And the notion that Ned never lies is simply false: he gets executed after falsely confessing to treason and claiming he tried to seize the throne for himself.

[corbon]

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That's clearly what Robert is referring to. Robert asks for the name, specifying she's Ned's bastard's mother, and Ned responds with Wylla.

Go read it carefully. What was the actual question?

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We can infer Ned had told Robert that was the mother before, and Robert simply forgot the name.

We could, but we have no solid basis to do so, so we shouldn't. Thats the whole point. We often do, but that's actually just sloppy reading, not paying attention to the actual conversation and the various subtexts going on in it.. The only thing we know that Ned told Robert before is the name of the woman Robert is thinking of. We don't know what else Ned told Robert about the woman, we only know what Robert thinks about the woman - with no evidence that Ned told him the other things.

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There is no reason for Robert to ask the name of a woman Robert himself is thinking of with no connection to Ned, and no reason for him to be thinking of Wylla (whose name he can't remember) if Ned hadn't already told him about her.

They both know which woman Robert is thinking of. The both know Robert believes her to be Ned's "one time", his "common woman".  Thats how Robert describes her, then adds, 'your bastard's mother'. Ned told her the name of that woman once, but Robert never met her.

None of that means that Ned told Robert the other things Robert believes. 

If Ned did tell Robert those things once before, then his behaviour in angrily avoiding the subject makes no sense. Ned clearly avoids the subject, angrily, even when pressed by his king.
If its true, then its not truly a big deal no matter what Ned might feel, and if he told it before there is no reason not to tell it again, or to get angry about Robert pressing him.  
If Ned actively lied about it to Robert before (or if its true), then the safe thing is to repeat the lie (truth), reinforce it, stay consistent in his behaviour around the subject. But Ned does not do that. 
The only reason for Ned to behave the way he does is if its not true but it is convenient, and Ned didn't tell it to Robert but let him believe the wrong thing, exactly as he does when we see. That makes his anger and his shutting down of the conversation fit perfectly.

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He's not "assuming" it, he's asking a question (whose answer he's heard before) and Ned's giving an answer.

He asked the woman's name. That was the question. Ned answered, with the name, quite explicitly, and nothing else.
All the other information, "that one time", the "common woman", "your bastard's mother" is suppled by Robert, not Ned. The only thing Robert says Ned told him before, is the woman's name. Everything else could come from any source - the obvious one being a report on Ned's visit to Starfall where he mysteriously turned up with Dawn and Wylla nursing Jon. As far as we know, Robert has assumed all this information based on whatever sources he had. 

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, he gives Robert an actual answer

To the name of the woman, explicitly no more.

Quote

Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her.

 

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

(which Edric Dayne later confirms),

Edric Dayne's story is markedly different from Robert's. (And makes no sense with either the Ned we see, the young Ned Robert tells us about, or Ned's internal thoughts.)
In Robert's story, Wylla was Ned's one time, the one woman who could make him forget his honour for even an hour. Young Ned was never-the-boy-he-was, had a stick up his arse and never forgot his honour for a moment... oh, except that one time Robert didn't even know about until Ned came home with a mysterious bastard.... With a peasant girl no less.
In Edric's story, Ashara is the great love, Wylla is just.... somehow the woman Ned fucked (put a bastard in her belly) while in love with Ashara.
Both story's end with Wylla as the mother, but they are very different, and neither fit with anything we see of Ned's character, past or present, or thoughts, or anything to do with Jon. What they do fit with is the observation that Ned arrived at Starfall with Wylla nursing Jon. And Ashara committed suicide (supposedly) soon after, after possible being involved with (dishonoured by?) 'Stark' at the Harrenhal tourney. And the people telling them weren't around Ned, Wylla or Ashara together at any time.

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

while insisting that Cat isn't to ask such questions

He has power over Cat in this regard that he does not have over Robert.

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

and forbidding anyone to speak of Ashara's name

Read the actual text. He forbade them to ask about Jon, not 'not to speak Ashara's name'. Its right there in black and white.
He asked where she (cat) heard that name (Ashara), so he could shut down the rest of the castle's rumour mill - no good just shutting down Cat if all the people she heard it from are still speculating about Jon.

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

(which is why his kids haven't heard of her, much to Edric's surprise).

And yes, Ned's kids, and Cat, never heard Ashara's name again - because without speculating about Jon, there is no reason for Ashara's name to come up around WInterfell.

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

And the notion that Ned never lies is simply false: he gets executed after falsely confessing to treason and claiming he tried to seize the throne for himself.

I've not said he never lies, so take that much repeated straw man and disappear it right quick.
He doesn't like lying, and he doesn't do it unless its necessary. His "policy" is to shut down dangerous conversations instead of lying. But that is not at all the same as never lying.

His own words?

Quote

"We all lie," her father said. "Or did you truly think I'd believe that Nymeria ran off?"

Arya blushed guiltily. "Jory promised not to tell."

"Jory kept his word," her father said with a smile. "There are some things I do not need to be told. Even a blind man could see that wolf would never have left you willingly."

"We had to throw rocks," she said miserably. "I told her to run, to go be free, that I didn't want her anymore. There were other wolves for her to play with, we heard them howling, and Jory said the woods were full of game, so she'd have deer to hunt. Only she kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so 'shamed, but it was right, wasn't it? The queen would have killed her."

"It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was … not without honor." 

 

[FictionIsntReal]

16 hours ago, corbon said:

Go read it carefully. What was the actual question?

He asked for the name of Ned's "common girl", specifying her as "your bastard's mother". When Ned responds with "Wylla", he affirming that she is his bastard's mother (as Edric Dayne would also confirm)

Quote

We could, but we have no solid basis to do so, so we shouldn't.

Robert says "you told me once" right before specifying "your bastard's mother". That is evidence.

Quote

The only thing we know that Ned told Robert before is the name of the woman Robert is thinking of.

How would Ned know what woman Robert was thinking of? All Robert has specified about her is that she's common, and she's the mother of Ned's bastard.

Quote

We don't know what else Ned told Robert about the woman, we only know what Robert thinks about the woman - with no evidence that Ned told him the other things.

Why would Robert be thinking of this woman (whose name he can't remember) at all if not for her connection to Ned's bastard? And who else would have told Robert about her, Edric?

Quote

They both know which woman Robert is thinking of. The both know Robert believes her to be Ned's "one time", his "common woman".  Thats how Robert describes her, then adds, 'your bastard's mother'. Ned told her the name of that woman once, but Robert never met her.

That's not a mere parenthetical note from Robert, that's him specifying who he's referring to so Ned can tell him (again). The only way I can make sense of a version where Ned didn't tell Robert she was his bastard's mother was if Robert already knew Ned had a "common woman", and when Ned turned up with a bastard Robert inferred she was the mother. But since we know the actual Wylla is a longtime nursemaid at Starfall, it seems unlikely Robert would have heard about her before he heard of said bastard.

Quote

If Ned actively lied about it to Robert before (or if its true), then the safe thing is to repeat the lie (truth), reinforce it, stay consistent in his behaviour around the subject. But Ned does not do that.

Ned only told Robert ONCE and otherwise avoided the subject. So he is being consistent. And, if you're lying, avoiding the subject helps to avoid being found out.

Quote

The only reason for Ned to behave the way he does is if its not true but it is convenient, and Ned didn't tell it to Robert but let him believe the wrong thing, exactly as he does when we see. That makes his anger and his shutting down of the conversation fit perfectly.

Ned does tell Robert here! He tells him her name is Wylla! After Robert has specified it's Ned's bastard's mother! That's not passively permitting Robert to continue in a false belief he came to on his own, that's Ned actively confirming something himself.

Quote

He asked the woman's name. That was the question. Ned answered, with the name, quite explicitly, and nothing else.

What woman's name? His bastard's mother.

Quote

All the other information, "that one time", the "common woman", "your bastard's mother" is suppled by Robert, not Ned.

Those are all supplied by Robert BEFORE NED ANSWERS THE QUESTION. Ned is answering a question specified with those things.

Quote

The only thing Robert says Ned told him before, is the woman's name.

What woman? His bastard's mother.

Quote

Everything else could come from any source - the obvious one being a report on Ned's visit to Starfall where he mysteriously turned up with Dawn and Wylla nursing Jon.

No need for some unspecified "report on Ned". Ned himself went from Starfall to King's Landing where he reconciled with Robert over their shared grief for Lyanna's death. The people at Starfall are unlikely informants for Robert against Ned, particularly since they provide the same name Ned does! And we don't know whether Wylla was already at Starfall when Ned arrived with Dawn.

Quote

To the name of the woman, explicitly no more.

What woman? His bastard's mother.

Quote

What they do fit with is the observation that Ned arrived at Starfall with Wylla nursing Jon.

Again, we don't know whether Wylla was already at Starfall or not.

Quote

He has power over Cat in this regard that he does not have over Robert.

Which is why Cat never heard him say who the mother was, unlike Robert, but in both cases Ned avoids talking about it as much as he can.

Quote

Read the actual text. He forbade them to ask about Jon, not 'not to speak Ashara's name'. Its right there in black and white.
He asked where she (cat) heard that name (Ashara), so he could shut down the rest of the castle's rumour mill - no good just shutting down Cat if all the people she heard it from are still speculating about Jon.

Here is some of the "actual text":

Quote

And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

He is specifically responding to Catelyn bringing up her name and acting to put a stop to anyone talking about her. Not just about Jon, her name doesn't come up at all. And here is more of that text on what they'd actually said about her: 

Quote

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

He's talked to his kids about Arthur Dayne, but they've never heard of Ashara, much to Edric's surprise. The Reed kids are also surprised Bran hasn't heard of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, in a story where Ashara appears.

Quote

And yes, Ned's kids, and Cat, never heard Ashara's name again - because without speculating about Jon, there is no reason for Ashara's name to come up around WInterfell.

Ashara committed suicide after Ned brought back Dawn (taken from her dead brother). That's worth talking about even without Jon Snow. Edric doesn't think Ashara is Jon's mother, but he still assumes Arya would know about her tragic story.

Quote

He doesn't like lying, and he doesn't do it unless its necessary. His "policy" is to shut down dangerous conversations instead of lying. But that is not at all the same as never lying.

I don't think we're too far off from each other then. He'd prefer not to say anything at all, but when Robert wants an answer he'll lie and say Wylla.

Quote

His own words?

Yes. And I'll add that since Ned is a product of an aristocratic culture, I expect he'd think it's less dishonorable to lie about a common wetnurse rather than a noble lady.

[corbon]

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He asked for the name of Ned's "common girl", specifying her as "your bastard's mother".

Right. So the question was "what was her name?"

Quote

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Robert gives Ned several clues as to who he is talking about. 
 - yet there was that one time...
 - that common girl of yours...
 - you know the one I mean, your bastard's mother

Quote

When Ned responds with "Wylla", he affirming that she is his bastard's mother

No, he is not. That is simply an inaccurate parsing of language. He is answering the question asked. The name of the woman Robert is thinking of is Wylla. Ned is quite specific. "Her name was Wylla". All the other information comes from Robert and is Robert's way of indicating to Ned which woman he means. Ned's answer does not confirm or deny any of those assumptions Robert makes, it strictly gives the name of the woman Robert is thinking of.

Quote

(as Edric Dayne would also confirm)

Edric Dayne wasn't even born at the time, and likely neither was his admitted source. He "confirms" nothing, he merely throws another random story into the gossip mix that has one part in common with Robert's.

Quote

Robert says "you told me once" right before specifying "your bastard's mother". That is evidence.

Yes. Its evidence Ned told Robert the name of the woman he is thinking of. Thats it. Period.

Quote

How would Ned know what woman Robert was thinking of? All Robert has specified about her is that she's common, and she's the mother of Ned's bastard.

And the 'that one time' reference to start it all off. 
How could Ned not know who Robert was talking about? Remember, they have talked about this before. Ned has told Robert the woman's name before. There must have been context then too. And no doubt Robert left (and probably entered, given Ned's demonstrated conversational tactics in this area) that older conversation clearly believing the woman was Ned's bastard's mother. So Ned knows exactly who Robert is talking about regardless of what Ned has told Robert in the past.

Quote

Why would Robert be thinking of this woman (whose name he can't remember) at all if not for her connection to Ned's bastard? And who else would have told Robert about her, Edric?

Thats been answered ad nauseum already (in many threads and at least referenced in this if not other), and your faux question-answer is patently absurd. So I'm assuming you are just trolling now, rather than genuinely discussing the situation. For the benefit of other readers I'll continue to answer this post.
If anyone else wants an answer, I'll explain yet again quite happily. In fact, I will again below anyway.

Quote

That's not a mere parenthetical note from Robert, that's him specifying who he's referring to so Ned can tell him (again). The only way I can make sense of a version where Ned didn't tell Robert she was his bastard's mother was if Robert already knew Ned had a "common woman", and when Ned turned up with a bastard Robert inferred she was the mother.

Or that when the bastard turned up, Wylla was the common woman nursing him, tagging along with Ned.
Robert didn't 'know' about Ned's 'one time' with a 'common woman' from personal experience - he never met her, never knew what she looked like.

Quote

But since we know the actual Wylla is a longtime nursemaid at Starfall, it seems unlikely Robert would have heard about her before he heard of said bastard.

Wylla's nursemaid career at Starfall is only know to have began 'before Edric was born' which was 5-6years after the rebellion ended.

So its a perfect fit that no-one (including Robert) knew anything about her until Ned appeared at Starfall with her nursing Jon in tow. Then Robert learns of her, but never meets her. Some time after that she returns to Starfall and is employed as a servant and wetnurse.

Quote

Ned only told Robert ONCE and otherwise avoided the subject. So he is being consistent. And, if you're lying, avoiding the subject helps to avoid being found out.

Ned told the name once before, and once again. And nothing else. Thats consistent.
Ned telling the name, and a bunch of other information, once, then, nothing but a name and shutting down the conversation the second time, thats not consistent.

Unless by 'consistent' you mean 'doing things differently'. 
Then I'd have to concede the point. 

Quote

Ned does tell Robert here! He tells him her name is Wylla! After Robert has specified it's Ned's bastard's mother! That's not passively permitting Robert to continue in a false belief he came to on his own, that's Ned actively confirming something himself.

No, it isn't. Ned's actual literal words? Her name was Wylla. Robert's actual literal question? What was her name? Everything else is window dressing to clarifying Robert's question. Thats how words actually work. 
Ned answering the exact question asked with an exactly phrased answer is not actively confirming Robert's multiple suppositions.

Lets put it another way.
This is not how I expect such a conversation to go, given Ned's character, but for the purposes of demonstration...
[Robert] You just told me your bastard's mother was Wylla!
[Ned] No, you told me, that the woman whom I named as Wylla, was my bastard's mother.
Robert is wrong here, Ned is right.

Quote

What woman's name? His bastard's mother.

[Robert] What woman's name? That woman, the one I'm thinking of. You know the one I mean. Your one time. Your common woman. Your bastard's mother.

 [Ned - mine] What woman's name? the one you think is my bastard's mother? Her name, that woman, is Wylla.

{Ned -yours] Yes, the mother of my bastard is Wylla, my common girl, my one time

Which actually fits the conversation?

Quote

Those are all supplied by Robert BEFORE NED ANSWERS THE QUESTION. Ned is answering a question specified with those things.

Yes. But thats still not the question. Robert is allowed his beliefs and its not Ned's responsiblity (or desire, or need - the opposite of his need in this case) to break down all of Robert's rambles and correct everything. No real conversation works like that.
Ned just answers the question, quite specifically and explicitly. Robert's rambling is not relevant to the answer unless Ned chooses to make it so - and he explicitly does not. "Her name was Wylla:"

Quote

No need for some unspecified "report on Ned".

So you are one of those people who just assumes Robert, who rages and loves again almost instantly, had no care over what happened to his estranged closest friend Ned after Ned left him furious and rode south - then disappeared on his own with some close friends?

And who assumes Varys, by his own admission surprised to have retained his head, let alone job as Aerys' Master of Whispers into Robert's new court, doesn't have the nous or wherewithal to have a report on Ned's appearance at Starfall and return of the sword Dawn before Robert before Ned even arrives?

Quote

Ned himself went from Starfall to King's Landing where he reconciled with Robert over their shared grief for Lyanna's death.

Indeed, most likely. And we assume thats where the 'first conversation'  between them that included Wylla was had.

You insist that Ned told Robert some tale about Wylla being Jon's mother, despite that being completely the opposite of what we see from Ned with both Robert and Cat when this subject comes up.

I suggest that a more reasonable likelihood is that Robert made or was given conclusions before the meeting, and that the first conversation likely was quite similar in nature to the second conversation - ie Robert makes assumptions, Ned answers minimalist-ly and shuts that conversation down, and that allows Robert to blithely continue his assumptions.

There is zero evidence that favours your insisted interpretation over mine. Yours has the problem of the issue of Ned's inconsistent pattern of behavior, never mind the basics of the actual words used by Ned and Robert don't say what you claim they do. Mine, which I present as a probable alternative, not a confirmed fact, makes Ned's behaviour (and Robert's) completely consistent.

Readers can make up their own minds

Quote

The people at Starfall are unlikely informants for Robert against Ned, particularly since they provide the same name Ned does! And we don't know whether Wylla was already at Starfall when Ned arrived with Dawn.

We have no indication she was. She was employed at Starfall from up to 5-6 years after Ned's arrival with Dawn (She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born.[287, vs 283 for birth of Jon and death of Lyanna).
We do have information that she was a wetnurse to Jon. So at some stage, either pre-or post Starfall, she nursed Jon..
 - if only post, why do Starfall think she was the mother? Ned had Jon by then already, f she was not on the scene, how and why did she get attached, and become 'mother'? Why is there not some other potential mother, since she's only a latecomer on the scene?
 - in stark contrast, if she arrived with Ned and Jon, then its a natural conclusion for people to make, with Ned not saying anything, that she is the mother.
We do have information that potentially places Jon at the ToJ (some dispute it, but his almost certain true mother died there in her birthing bed) joining Ned before Ned goes to Starfall.
We have the issue that there was another person (unknown) present at Lyanna's death - "they" (HR + other) found Ned with Lyanna dead in his arms, yet only 2 of the 10 combatants lived to ride away - there was another living noncombatant, identity unknown, at the ToJ - Wylla as a planned wetnurse would fit the bill (when you have a sick/dying woman potentially giving birth to a royal child, you get a wetnurse for the baby immediately, if not before the birth even - you don't wait until she's dead and then think "oh, how do we feed the babe now?"
We have the issue that Ned seems to have gotten Jon from ToJ to Starfall. Presumably with some method of feeding a baby. Its not a few hours ride. 

Quote

Again, we don't know whether Wylla was already at Starfall or not.

Again, you have made a false assumption that she might have been there. We have no evidence suggesting she was. Her known time there started years later.

We do know she was not already there in the Dayne's employ when Ned arrived with Jon - else they would know she wasn't the actual mother.
Unless of course you go with a massive conspiracy theory that has no upside and plenty of downside potential for the Daynes, sees Ned colluding with a bunch of southerners he doesn't know against his king, and sees Ned quite happily create a vast public lie that could easily be disproved by a determined Master of Whispers which he then simply 'won't talk about' in a huff years later rather than back up the lie.
Again, readers can make their own minds up.

Quote

Here is some of the "actual text":

Did you bother to read it? Its exactly what I quoted. Ned's interest is where you heard that - so he can, and does, shut down any rumours about Jon.
Did you just ignore Ned's other, first, most important words?

Quote

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. 

 

Quote

He is specifically responding to Catelyn bringing up her name and acting to put a stop to anyone talking about her.

He explicitly, specifically responded about Jon.

Cat's focus is on Ashara. Ned's focus is on Jon.

Mistaking Cat's focus for Ned's focus is simply ignoring what Ned actually says.

Quote

Not just about Jon, her name doesn't come up at all. And here is more of that text on what they'd actually said about her: 

Yes, just about Jon. His explicit concern, and shut down, is Jon. Then his next concern is where she heard what she heard, to shut down the rumours about Jon, his explicit concern.

Quote

He's talked to his kids about Arthur Dayne, but they've never heard of Ashara, much to Edric's surprise. The Reed kids are also surprised Bran hasn't heard of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, in a story where Ashara appears.

Yes. Without Jon, there is no Ashara. Arthur Dayne, he's a famous Knight, nothing to do with Jon. The KotLT is an unknown story because Ned doesn't speak about Lyanna's story.

Quote

Ashara committed suicide after Ned brought back Dawn (taken from her dead brother).

Perhaps. 

Quote

That's worth talking about even without Jon Snow.

To who? Some disgraced southron courtier nobody. Why would Winterfell talk about her, once they are warned off talking about Jon? Without Jon, she's simply not relevant to them.
More importantly, remember, Cat was onto her in the context of Jon's mother. Which means the things she'd been hearing were in that context too. Which means when Ned suts down talk about Jon, bye-bye talk about Ashara.

Quote

Edric doesn't think Ashara is Jon's mother, but he still assumes Arya would know about her tragic story.

Of course he does. He's a kid. He assumes everyone knows the 'famous' stories he knows, which in truth are merely 'local'.
I very much doubt Edric knows any stories about Brandon the Burner for example. And I imagine Bran (and maybe Arya) would be astonished to learn that he doesn't.

Quote

I don't think we're too far off from each other then. He'd prefer not to say anything at all, but when Robert wants an answer he'll lie and say Wylla.

Thats possible too. Except its simply not necessary. And its inconsistent. He doesn't do it later, why would he do it earlier? And if he did do it earlier, then why the shutdown? Its inconsistent and makes no sense.

Quote

Yes. And I'll add that since Ned is a product of an aristocratic culture, I expect he'd think it's less dishonorable to lie about a common wetnurse rather than a noble lady.

Thats possible, but it doesn't seem to fit with Ned's words or actual actions, does it?
Ned appears to have an unusually common touch for a noble. It might be a northern thing, but I think its also a Ned thing.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Right. So the question was "what was her name?"

The mother of his bastard. Robert only knows about one woman Ned ever was besides Cat and Ned himself told him he was the mother of his bastard.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Robert gives Ned several clues as to who he is talking about. 
 - yet there was that one time...
 - that common girl of yours...
 - you know the one I mean, your bastard's mother

And you're leaving the most important clue.

You told me once.

Robert is repeating what Ned told him and he just forgot about it.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

No, he is not. That is simply an inaccurate parsing of language. He is answering the question asked. The name of the woman Robert is thinking of is Wylla. Ned is quite specific. "Her name was Wylla". All the other information comes from Robert and is Robert's way of indicating to Ned which woman he means. Ned's answer does not confirm or deny any of those assumptions Robert makes, it strictly gives the name of the woman Robert is thinking of.

He is, Robert says that Ned was the one telling him she was the mother of his bastard. Given that she's the only woman besides Cat out there.

All the other info comes from a Robert who had been previously informed by Ned himself about it.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

We do know she was not already there in the Dayne's employ when Ned arrived with Jon - else they would know she wasn't the actual mother.

Who would know?? The Daynes?? It seems kinda obvious, few carry their pregnant girl on campaign and Arthur was at the Tower. 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Unless of course you go with a massive conspiracy theory that has no upside and plenty of downside potential for the Daynes, sees Ned colluding with a bunch of southerners he doesn't know against his king, and sees Ned quite happily create a vast public lie that could easily be disproved by a determined Master of Whispers which he then simply 'won't talk about' in a huff years later rather than back up the lie.

There's really no downside, Howland keeps his mouth shut, so can the Daynes. Ned returned Dawn to them and was kind enough, it's enough for them to shut it. If Ned's coming from the Tower, it's likely that those southeners know more than Ned might want them to know anyway.

 

Ned doesn't create a vast public lie, Ned tells Robert, in private, that the mother of his bastard is named Wylla, a Wylla, not Wylla from Starfall. 

Wylla seems a common enough name that would be like looking for someone in Northamerica named John.

Robert has no incentive to dig deeper nor Varys is Twitter.

While Varys knows a lot things in King's Landing, he simply doesn't have an spy in every major Castle. There's only one person in Westeros's history so far who kinda did that... And he was running a police state.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Yes. Its evidence Ned told Robert the name of the woman he is thinking of. Thats it. Period.

And that said woman was the mother of his bastard. Robert would not have come up with that on his own and he's linking Ned to  that info. 

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Ned telling the name, and a bunch of other information, once, then, nothing but a name and shutting down the conversation the second time, thats not consistent.

It is. Ned told Robert he had an affair, the name of the woman and that the woman was the mother of his bastard. Then shut the conversation.

Years later, Robert who already had all the info but had forgotten the name, asks for the name and Ned provides it and ends the conversation. 

In both occasions Robert is left without knowing how she was. That's consistent.

What it's not is that Ned would not tell his best friend and King who the mother of his bastard is, there's no reason for Robert to deny that if pushed. 

 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Lets put it another way.
This is not how I expect such a conversation to go, given Ned's character, but for the purposes of demonstration...
[Robert] You just told me your bastard's mother was Wylla!
[Ned] No, you told me, that the woman whom I named as Wylla, was my bastard's mother.
Robert is wrong here, Ned is right.

And then Robert would say.

You once told me, that the woman whom you named as Wylla, was your bastard's mother.

 

 

[KarlaOlivia_of_Winterfell]

I have thought more about this since I published, I know that there is no indication that Brandon was no more than a hot headed and not a rapist, but the later assumptions that Rhaegar raped Lyanna make me question where this idea came. Maybe is a thing of bards cause if the Silent Sisters noticed the pregnancy of Lyanna they have a vow of silence, so no one beside those in the Tower of Joy could known something. This could sound heavy but maybe Brandon and Robert thought that the abduction of Lyanna was more about a kind of punishment against them more than Rhaegar falling in love with her. 

ADwD, The Kingbreaker
If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

That tell us that Ashara still had a thing with a Stark the last day of the Tournament, which could be strange if we consider that Brandon did't take well that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, even Robert seemed to take it more easily (Maybe he knew more about the Southern ambitions of his father and the rebellion’s plan of the Lords).

I cannot remember well how the Meera’s tale end but I don’t remember that she have said what happen in the last day with all the tensions between Rhaegar, Robert, Starks; Aerys and the Laughing Tree Knight. Barristan remembers it as the moment when all the laughs died. So it could be nice form Martin to give Ned and Ashara a last moment with all that storm around them. But for me not match with his style. It could be that if Ashara was too loyal to Elia she confronted Lyanna and Brandon and Arthur get involved makingthe things worst, or something similar. We are not sure what happened, but I risk to say that the thing turned bitter and more with crazy Aerys in the place.    
But with all these things would be strange that Ned never make more reflections about the Tournament. I hope that Martin give us more information of what happened in Harrenhal. 

[FictionIsntReal]

14 hours ago, corbon said:

Right. So the question was "what was her name?"

What was WHOSE name? His bastard's mother.

Quote

Robert gives Ned several clues as to who he is talking about.
 - yet there was that one time...
 - that common girl of yours...
 - you know the one I mean, your bastard's mother

I would call those "specifications" rather than "clues" (Robert himself doesn't remember the answer), and Ned's answer is supposed to match ALL of them.
 

Quote

 That is simply an inaccurate parsing of language. He is answering the question asked.

 Answering a question which includes "your bastard's mother" as requiring that is a correct parsing!
 

Quote

The name of the woman Robert is thinking of is Wylla

 WHY would Robert be thinking of this woman whose name he can't remember? Because she's the mother of Ned's bastard! That's really all Robert knows about her (aside from her being common, which is of course not specific).
 

Quote

Ned is quite specific. "Her name was Wylla"

Yeah, that's answering Robert's question about his bastard's mother.

Quote

All the other information comes from Robert and is Robert's way of indicating to Ned which woman he means

Which determines which name Ned should give! If Robert had said "Who is the woman I'm thinking of, you know the one, your wife" it would be incorrect if Ned said "Wylla", because she's not Ned's wife. Even if Robert had been misinformed as to the actual name of Ned's wife somehow, it would be a lie if Ned said that.
 

Quote

Ned's answer does not confirm or deny any of those assumptions Robert makes, it strictly gives the name of the woman Robert is thinking of

The woman Robert is thinking of is the common-born mother of Ned's bastard. And the specification isn't "The woman I heard is your bastard's mother", it's "your bastard's mother". The answer Ned gives must fit that by the normal rules of language.
 

Quote

Edric Dayne wasn't even born at the time, and likely neither was his admitted source. He "confirms" nothing, he merely throws another random story into the gossip mix that has one part in common with Robert's.

He states it as fact, even swearing on the honor of his house when Arya is skeptical (while technically the thing he swears is that Wylla was his wetnurse, he has assumed Arya already knew she was Jon Snow's mother).

Quote

Yes. Its evidence Ned told Robert the name of the woman he is thinking of. Thats it. Period.

How would Ned know which woman Robert was thinking of in order to tell him previously? The only reason Robert is trying to remember this woman at all is because of her connection to Ned's bastard. That's what Ned had told Robert. He didn't walk up to Robert and say "You're thinking about a woman named Wylla". How could your imagined scenario in the past have gone?
 

Quote

How could Ned not know who Robert was talking about?

If he'd had multiple common women.
 

Quote

Ned has told Robert the woman's name before

WHICH woman? His bastard's mother.

Quote

And no doubt Robert left (and probably entered, given Ned's demonstrated conversational tactics in this area) that older conversation clearly believing the woman was Ned's bastard's mother

Why would he believe this without Ned telling him? In the one instance we actually have of Robert discussing it, his knowledge is based on Ned telling him before (and then Ned tells him it again).
 

Quote

Or that when the bastard turned up, Wylla was the common woman nursing him, tagging along with Ned.

Cat didn't assume Wylla was Jon's mother, and Ned is less willing to talk to her about Jon's parentage. The difference between them is that Ned isn't willing to tell Cat anything, but Ned will tell Robert the name "Wylla".

Quote

So its a perfect fit that no-one (including Robert) knew anything about her until Ned appeared at Starfall with her nursing Jon in tow

We don't know whether Ned "appeared at Starfall with her" or if she was already there.

Quote

Ned telling the name, and a bunch of other information

What "bunch of other information"?

Quote

Everything else is window dressing to clarifying Robert's question

That's not window dressing! If I said "What's the name of that movie I'm thinking of, you know where the newspaperman dies saying "Rosebud"", and you replied "Citizen Kane" then Citizen Kane must be the movie where the newspaperman says that when he dies. If I just said "What's the name of the movie I'm thinking of", I'd fail to specify it in a way you could answer.

Quote

 [Robert] You just told me your bastard's mother was Wylla!

Robert had actually been told prior to this, as he mentions.
 

Quote

[Ned] No, you told me, that the woman whom I named as Wylla, was my bastard's mother.

No, Robert isn't "telling" Ned anything, he's asking a question which included that as a specification. If Robert had a really short memory so that Ned started by saying "My bastard's mother is named Wylla", and then Robert promptly forgot and asked "What was that woman's name, one you told me about, your bastard's mother?" and Ned replied "Wylla" he would again be saying that Wylla is his bastard's mother not merely that he had told Robert that name.

Quote

What woman's name? the one you think is my bastard's mother? Her name, that woman, is Wylla.

Robert didn't say "The one I think is your bastard's mother", he said "your bastard's mother".
 

Quote

 

 {Ned -yours] Yes, the mother of my bastard is Wylla, my common girl, my one time

Which actually fits the conversation?

 

The one you attribute to me actually does fit much better.

Quote

But thats still not the question

It's part of the question.

Quote

Robert is allowed his beliefs and its not Ned's responsiblity (or desire, or need - the opposite of his need in this case) to break down all of Robert's rambles and correct everything

If Robert had said "What's her name, and by the way this Arbor gold is excellent, you know, your bastard's mother", then the bit about Arbor gold would indeed be an irrelevant rambling Ned doesn't need to correct if they're drinking something else. But the bit about her being Ned's bastard's mother isn't a mere "ramble", it's specifying who Robert is referring to! If Robert had referred to her as "Jon and Robb's mother", under the mistaken belief that they're full siblings, it would be incorrect for Ned to give the same answer.

Quote

Robert's rambling is not relevant to the answer unless Ned chooses to make it so

It's relevant because ROBERT made it so. It specifies who he's asking about, in a way that my Arbor gold hypothetical doesn't.

Quote

So you are one of those people who just assumes Robert, who rages and loves again almost instantly, had no care over what happened to his estranged closest friend Ned after Ned left him furious and rode south

I expect that Robert did hear about Ned relieving the siege at Storm's End, after which he dispatched Stannis to Dragonstone. We still don't know how Ned knew where to look, we only know that he selected a very small number of people to accompany him, and that to me suggests secrecy.

Quote

And who assumes Varys, by his own admission surprised to have retained his head, let alone job as Aerys' Master of Whispers into Robert's new court, doesn't have the nous or wherewithal to have a report on Ned's appearance at Starfall and return of the sword Dawn before Robert before Ned even arrives?

Varys has a lot more sources in KL than elsewhere. Assuming R+L=J, the Daynes appear to have conspired with Ned to cover up the truth, and not even Varys has given any indication that he knows better. In order for news to arrive that quickly from Starfall I think a raven would be necessary, and access to those is much more limited compared to modern communication tech.

Quote

You insist that Ned told Robert some tale about Wylla being Jon's mother, despite that being completely the opposite of what we see from Ned with both Robert

Yes, I think Ned told Robert that he had a bastard and Wylla was his mother. It's not "completely the opposite", since when Robert asks about his bastard's mother he gives the name "Wylla" again. Robert said Ned had told him before, and Ned would have had no reason to tell him "You're thinking of a woman named Wylla". If Ned merely had a nursemaid and Robert asked her name, then the correct answer to Robert's question would be "I didn't tell you that", just as a hypothetical where Cat asks the nursemaid's name wouldn't be identifying Jon's mother.

Quote

I suggest that a more reasonable likelihood is that Robert made or was given conclusions before the meeting

Something we have no evidence for.

Quote

and that the first conversation likely was quite similar in nature to the second conversation

Robert certainly thinks it was, insofar as Ned told him her name.

Quote

Ned answers minimalist-ly and shuts that conversation down

"Who's your bastard's mother?"
"A common woman named Wylla, and I don't want to talk about it".
Is that minimalist & shut down enough? How do you think the conversation went?

Quote

There is zero evidence that favours your insisted interpretation over mine

Robert thinks Ned told him before, and that's the only reason for Ned to tell him & Robert to have any memory of it.

Quote

Yours has the problem of the issue of Ned's inconsistent pattern of behavior

It's not inconsistent for him to say "Wylla" both times when Robert asks about his bastard's mother.

Quote

 if only post, why do Starfall think she was the mother? Ned had Jon by then already, f she was not on the scene, how and why did she get attached, and become 'mother'?

It's a lie agreed upon. She was available to nurse Jon (and is lowborn enough they can easily order her around/bribe her), and since the truth is to be avoided, Wylla is who they can name. And that is the name given by both Eddard & Edric. There's no particular reason for Starfall to employ her as a wetnurse later just because Ned had shown up with her.

Quote

Why is there not some other potential mother, since she's only a latecomer on the scene?

I don't think I understand the question. Ned went with just a small number of men to the Tower, not with any women he could point to as the mother. We don't know what he was expecting when he went there.

Quote

in stark contrast, if she arrived with Ned and Jon, then its a natural conclusion for people to make, with Ned not saying anything, that she is the mother

When people give different answers, like the fisherman's daughter or Ashara, it's more likely they're making guesses. But if someone gives the same name as Ned (even while Ned normally avoids discussing the subject at all), I suspect coordination.

Quote

Wylla as a planned wetnurse would fit the bill

Where did she come from? If she was there (which is entirely plausible, for the reasons you gave), my guess is Starfall. It's nearby, Arthur Dayne is there, and as Rhaegar's closest confidant he would be trusted with arranging such a thing. Other people knowing Arthur is at the Tower could also explain how Ned knew to look there, since he knows someone at Starfall.

Quote

Again, you have made a false assumption that she might have been there. We have no evidence suggesting she was. Her known time there started years later.

How is saying "we don't know" making an assumption?

Quote

We do know she was not already there in the Dayne's employ when Ned arrived with Jon - else they would know she wasn't the actual mother.

No we don't "know" such a thing. It's entirely possible that Edric is repeating a deliberate lie.

Quote

Unless of course you go with a massive conspiracy theory that has no upside and plenty of downside potential for the Daynes, sees Ned colluding with a bunch of southerners he doesn't know against his king, and sees Ned quite happily create a vast public lie that could easily be disproved by a determined Master of Whispers which he then simply 'won't talk about' in a huff years later rather than back up the lie.

I don't think it's "massive" at all. The Daynes were already aligned with the loyalists, and the new regime was taking a light touch with Dorne after what happened to Elia & her children. Ned actually has met Ashara before, Barristan seems to think there was enough trust for her to "look to Stark". And there's no evidence Varys has even heard of this "vast public lie" about Wylla which we only know of Ned telling Robert.

Quote

 

 Cat's focus is on Ashara. Ned's focus is on Jon.

Mistaking Cat's focus for Ned's focus is simply ignoring what Ned actually says.

 

Ned is focused on Jon, but to him talk about Ashara touches on that. So he prohibits any mention of her, including the bits I quoted which don't mention Jon. If you've heard of the idea of "building a wall around the Talmud", Ned is similarly not taking any chances here.

Quote

Yes, just about Jon.

None of that block of text mentioned Jon at all! It was entirely about the Daynes.

Quote

Then his next concern is where she heard what she heard

What she heard is "that name", and it is that name which Cat says was never spoken of again.

Quote

Yes. Without Jon, there is no Ashara.

Ashara exists and there are people who remember her, regardless of Jon.

Quote

Perhaps.

Ok, there doubt in the fandom, but that's the public perception in Westeros, and a reason to gossip about her.

Quote

To who? Some disgraced southron courtier nobody. Why would Winterfell talk about her, once they are warned off talking about Jon? Without Jon, she's simply not relevant to them.

The Daynes are a famous family, and if the new lord of Winterfell is somehow responsible for the deaths of both elder siblings within a short span of time, that's interesting. We know there's gossip about Ned's fight with Arthur (including rumors that it was single combat), and since the sword is famous people talk about Ned returning Dawn.

Quote

Of course he does. He's a kid. He assumes everyone knows the 'famous' stories he knows, which in truth are merely 'local'.

It's not merely local. Cat, Cersei & Barristan all know about Ashara's suicide (or "suicide", if you prefer). Harwin has also heard about her. Arya probably would have heard if Ned hadn't prohibited any such talk.

Quote

I very much doubt Edric knows any stories about Brandon the Burner for example

Maybe, or maybe not, but that was centuries ago, before the Seven Kingdoms were unified. Ashara is someone Arya's father actually interacted with.

Quote

And its inconsistent. He doesn't do it later, why would he do it earlier?

Are you referring to when Cat asked rather than when Robert asked?

Quote

And if he did do it earlier, then why the shutdown?

He doesn't want to talk about it, a short lie is enough.

Quote

Ned appears to have an unusually common touch for a noble. It might be a northern thing, but I think its also a Ned thing.

The hierarchy might be a bit flatter there, but it's still a hierarchy. Ned doesn't do anything about Mycah's murder, because he's a smallfolk. He does do something about peasants in the Riverlands being raided... because the feudal lords there forced said peasants to go to KL requesting the crown's help. For more on Ned being a product of his culture, he's willing to indulge Arya's sword-practice... but still insists she's going to grow up to be proper lady who has sons that get to do the things she aspires to do herself.

[corbon]

On 11/12/2020 at 1:24 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

 

The arguments are out there for all to see and judge for themselves.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 11/15/2020 at 2:12 PM, corbon said:

The arguments are out there for all to see and judge for themselves.

And I take it you have no way of responding to me or @frenin

[corbon]

19 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

And I take it you have no way of responding to me or @frenin

I only speak english, so...  

Both sides have made their argument. Nothing new is being added. Learn to leave it as it is gracefully rather than trolling for more pointless fight.