The Claim of Brynden Targaryen

[Mourning Star]

Only a king can legitimize a bastard in A Song of Ice and Fire.

In the case of Brynden Rivers, better known as Bloodraven, this is exactly what happened… in fact it is the “textbook” example provided to the reader by Cat, along with the other Great Bastards, namely the males: Bittersteal and Blackfyre.

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"Not unless he's legitimized by a royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."

"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

While I would first note that this is directly compared to releasing someone from an oath, like those sworn by Night’s Watchmen or Maesters, and will come back to that below, it is also of interest that legitimization cannot be undone.

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His lordship was not a bastard anymore. Bolton, not Snow. The boy king on the Iron Throne had made Lord Ramsay legitimate, giving him the right to use his lord father's name.

A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

Being legitimized gives one the right to use one’s father’s name, like a trueborn son, as opposed to a bastard (recognized or otherwise).

So why do none of the son’s of Aegon the Unworthy ever use the name Targaryen?

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"I do not drink to kinslayers," said Ser Glendon. "Lord Bloodraven is a sorcerer and a bastard."

"Born bastard," Ser Uthor agreed mildly, "but his royal father made him legitimate as he lay dying." He drank deep, as did Ser Maynard and many others in the hall. Near as many lowered their cups, or turned them upside down as Ball had done. Dunk's own cup was heavy in his hand. How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle went. A thousand eyes, and one.

The Mystery Knight

In the above quote from Dunk and Egg we see Bloodraven, disguised as Ser Maynard, drink to his own legitimacy.

Daemon Waters was knighted and given the sword Blackfyre by his father Aegon and took the name Blackfyre at the age of twelve, before being legitimized. So continuing to use his established name, essentially a cadet branch of the house, makes some sense.

Aegor Rivers, two years younger than Daemon, commonly known as Bittersteal, was a supporter (and likely instigator, at least in part, of some of) the Blackfyre rebellions. He married Daemon’s daughter Calla. Either his hate/opposition of the Targaryens in power, or his ties to house Blackfyre, could explain why he never called himself Aegor Targaryen.

Brynden Rivers, better known as Bloodraven, served House Targaryen as Hand of the King, and ruled in all but name until his exile to the Night’s Watch. Was it out of loyalty that Bloodraven never used the Targaryen name? Or did he simply bide his time until it best suited him? When he gives Bran the name his mother gave him he says Brynden, but gives no last name, the name his father gave him, nor does he call himself Brynden Rivers.

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Jon was not entirely innocent of the history of the realm; his own maester had seen to that. "That was the year of the Great Council," he said. "The lords passed over Prince Aerion's infant son and Prince Daeron's daughter and gave the crown to Aegon."

"Yes and no. First they offered it, quietly, to Aemon. And quietly he refused. The gods meant for him to serve, not to rule, he told them. He had sworn a vow and would not break it, though the High Septon himself offered to absolve him. Well, no sane man wanted any blood of Aerion's on the throne, and Daeron's girl was a lackwit besides being female, so they had no choice but to turn to Aemon's younger brother—Aegon, the Fifth of His Name. Aegon the Unlikely, they called him, born the fourth son of a fourth son. Aemon knew, and rightly, that if he remained at court those who disliked his brother's rule would seek to use him, so he came to the Wall. And here he has remained, while his brother and his brother's son and his son each reigned and died in turn, until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the Dragonkings."

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

Jon learns from Mormont that Aemon was offered the crown quietly, and that he refused quietly. Aemon never made any claim on the crown, and as we learned above, there is more precedent for legitimizing bastards than for releasing someone from vows.

But, one thing is odd, there was no need to pass over Maegor and Vaella to give the crown to Aegon, who was Maekar’s eldest son still eligible to inherit, and the obvious choice.

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When King Maekar died in battle in 233 AC, whilst leading his army against a rebellious lord on the Dornish Marches, considerable confusion arose as to the succession. Rather than risk another Dance of the Dragons, the King's Hand, Bloodraven, elected to call a Great Council to decide the matter.

In 233 AC, hundred of lords great and small assembled in King's Landing. With both of Maekar's elder sons deceased, there were four possible claimants. The Great Council dismissed Prince Daeron's sweet but simple-minded daughter Vaella immediately. Only a few spoke up for Aerion Brightflame's son Maegor; an infant king would have meant a long, contentious regency, and there were also fears that the boy might have inherited his father's cruelty and madness. Prince Aegon was the obvious choice, but some lords distrusted him as well, for his wanderings with his hedge knight had left him "half a peasant," according to many. Enough hated him, in fact, that an effort was made to determine whether his elder brother Maester Aemon might be released from his vows, but Aemon refused, and nothing came of it.

Even as the Great Council was debating, however, another claimant appeared in King's Landing: none other than Aenys Blackfyre, the fifth of the Black Dragon's seven sons. When the Great Council had first been announced, Aenys had written from exile in Tyrosh, putting forward his case in the hope that his words might win him the Iron Throne that his forebears had thrice failed to win with their swords. Bloodraven, the King's Hand, had responded by offering him a safe conduct, so the pretender might come to King's Landing and present his claim in person.

Unwisely, Aenys accepted. Yet hardly had he entered the city when the gold cloaks seized hold of him and dragged him to the Red Keep, where his head was struck off forthwith and presented to the lords of the Great Council, as a warning to any who might still have Blackfyre sympathies.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Maekar I

When the World Book says that Bloodraven called the Great Council, and there were four possible claimants, I would argue that Aemon cannot be counted as one of them, as he never made a claim, and had sworn a vow relinquishing any claim, despite it being quietly offered and quietly refused.

In fact, it’s odd that there was any confusion at all, the line of succession should have been clear. Maekar had a living son who had not sworn any vows giving up any claim on the crown.

I believe Bloodraven called the Council to pass over the claims of Aegon, Vaella, and Maegor in favor of himself, Brynden Targaryen, the fourth claimant. If the intent was not to pass over Aegon, there was no need to call a Council.

As it turns out, another challenger appeared, heir to Daemon Blackfyre, and after being promised safe passage, Bloodraven beheaded him and paraded the head in front of the gathered lords.

The line of succession wasn’t unclear at all, and the only reason to call a council was to pass over claimants, and the the obvious choice, Egg, is who the Lords end up choosing.

Then Egg, Aegon the Unlikely, sentenced Bloodraven to die, but allowed the sentence to be commuted to service in the Night’s Watch.

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The old man heard him. Though Aemon's eyes had dimmed and gone dark, there was nothing wrong with his ears. "I was not born blind," he reminded them. "When last I passed this way, I saw every rock and tree and whitecap, and watched the grey gulls flying in our wake. I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

"Bloodraven?" said Dareon. "I know a song about him. 'A Thousand Eyes, and One,' it's called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago."

A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

Aemon and Bloodraven went to the Wall together, but I highly doubt, the “honor guard” was really for Aemon. Many of Bloodraven’s loyal guard, the Raven’s Teeth, were said to have gone with him, and Duncan the Tall was even sent to make sure no mishaps (like Bittersteel’s escape on the way to the Wall) occurred.

Aemon references the six kings sent by Nymeria, and Aemon and Bloodraven were both a short step from being Kings themselves.

For fun, I want to conclude with a quick look at these six kings in gold fetters and what I believe are all references alluding directly to Bloodraven.

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The Names of the Six Kings Sent by Nymeria to the Wall, as Related in the Histories

Yorick of House Yronwood, the Bloodroyal, the richest and most powerful of the Dornish kings deposed by House Martell.

Vorian of House Dayne, Sword of the Evening, renowned as the greatest knight in all of Dorne.

Garrison of House Fowler, the Blind King, aged and sightless, yet still feared for his cunning.

Lucifer of House Dryland, Last of His Ilk, King of the Brimstone, Lord of Hellgate Hall.

Benedict of House Blackmont, who worshipped a dark god and was said to have the power to transform himself into a vulture of enormous size.

Albin of House Manwoody, a troublesome madman who claimed dominion over the Red Mountains.

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Coming of the Rhoynar

Yorick, The Bloodroyal, is probably a reference to a character from Shakespeare’s Hamlet, the court jester whose skull is consulted (Alas poor Yorick!).  Bloodraven is now a skull being consulted by Bran, and Bloodraven was also obviously of the royal blood

Vorian is an uncommon name, but Vorian Atreides from the Legends of Dune series is the founder of House Atreides who had an extremely extended lifespan and was the bastard son of the Titan leader Agamemnon.

The Blind King, is, I believe a reference to Phineus of Greek myth, most prominently from the story of Jason and the Argonauts. Phineus was blinded for revealing the future to mankind, or alternately, as a punishment for kinslaying, he was given the choice of losing his life or his sight by Zeus, and he said he would rather never see the sun.

Lucifer, the lord of hell, is trapped in the deepest darkest pit after rising in revolt against the lord.

Benedict, a name synonymous with treachery thanks to Benedict Arnold, and this one worshiped a dark god and was said to change into an animal.

Albin (which comes from the root world meaning “white”) Manwoody, is an allusion to the white man-tree.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I believe Bloodraven called the Council to pass over the claims of Aegon, Vaella, and Maegor in favor of himself, Brynden Targaryen, the fourth claimant. If the intent was not to pass over Aegon, there was no need to call a Council.

Maekar had four children - Aerion was the oldest, then Daeron (he died before 233), then Aemon, and Aegon.

By their laws of inheritance the succession should pass to the children of the oldest son. Thus Aerion's son was first in line of sucession. When Lords dismissed Maegor, next in line, as a child of the second son, was Vaella. But she was also passed over, because she was a female, and because she was mentally unhealthy. Next was Aemon, but he refused to even participate in the Council, thus he wasn't one of four candidates. The third candidate was Egg, and the fourth was Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven wasn't one of those four candidates.

[Mourning Star]

53 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Maekar had four children - Aerion was the oldest, then Daeron (he died before 233), then Aemon, and Aegon.

By their laws of inheritance the succession should pass to the children of the oldest son. Thus Aerion's son was first in line of sucession. When Lords dismissed Maegor, next in line, as a child of the second son, was Vaella. But she was also passed over, because she was a female, and because she was mentally unhealthy. Next was Aemon, but he refused to even participate in the Coucil, thus he wasn't one of four candidates. The third candidate was Egg, and the fourth was Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven wasn't one of those four candidates.

Aerion predeceased both his son and father, if that really matters. The question is really one of politics, what legitimate candidates are there to debate between?

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Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modeled on those in real medieval history… which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory.

A man’s eldest son was his heir. After that the next eldest son. Then the next, etc. Daughters were not considered while there was a living son, except in Dorne, where females had equal right of inheritance according to age.

After the sons, most would say that the eldest daughter is next in line. But there might be an argument from the dead man’s brothers, say. Does a male sibling or a female child take precedence? Each side has a “claim.”

What if there are no children, only grandchildren and great grandchildren? Is precedence or proximity the more important principle? Do bastards have any rights? What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases… but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claims.

-GRRM

Aemon was not a possible claimant, having sworn vows and quietly refused the offer.

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Well, no sane man wanted any blood of Aerion's on the throne, and Daeron's girl was a lackwit besides being female, so they had no choice but to turn to Aemon's younger brother—Aegon, the Fifth of His Name.

It's obvious that nobody was supporting either Vaella or Maegor, so again, the question becomes why call a Council when there was a clear choice in Egg... because Bloodraven, who called the Council, wanted to pass him over as well.

And honestly, isn't he the obvious choice, having ruled in all but name for years already?

I think the Lords choose Egg mostly out of fear (or hate) of Bloodraven, not respect for the succession or love of Egg.

Aenys is said to be in addition to the four, not one of them.

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Even as the Great Council was debating, however, another claimant appeared in King's Landing: none other than Aenys Blackfyre, the fifth of the Black Dragon's seven sons.

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Aerion predeceased both his son and father, if that really matters.

No, it doesn't matter that he was already dead by that time, his children were first in line of inheritance after him, and only after them - his next brother, then his children, then the next brother and his children, etc.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Aenys is said to be in addition to the four, not one of them.

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Even as the Great Council was debating, however, another claimant appeared in King's Landing:

That's correct, but ->

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

When the Great Council had first been announced, Aenys had written from exile in Tyrosh, putting forward his case in the hope that his words might win him the Iron Throne that his forebears had thrice failed to win with their swords. Bloodraven, the King's Hand, had responded by offering him a safe conduct, so the pretender might come to King's Landing and present his claim in person.

He put forth his claim as soon as the Council was announced. So he became one of candidates months prior his actual arrival to KL. Thus he was one of the original four claimants. The Great Council viewed him as one of viable candidates. 

And Bloodraven lured him to 7K and executed him because Aenys actually had a pretty high chances. Daemon I Blackfyre was legitimized by his father, King Aegon IV. Furthermore, many citizens of 7K thought of Daemon as Aegon's rightful heir, because the King gave his sword to him and not Daeron. Thus Daemon I Blackfyre should have became the next King after Aegon IV, then next in the line of inheritance was Daemon's oldest son, and then that son's children, then his next son and his children, and so on, including Aenys and his children, and only then it was Daeron's turn and after him his children and grandchildren.

Thus their line of sucession should have been like this (if Aegon IV really had chosen Daemon as his heir):

1. Daemon I Blackfyre, his other three sons died childless, 2. Haegon, his son Daemon III and his brothers, 3. Aenys, 4. his children, 5&6 Daemon's other two sons and their children, 7. Calla and her sisters and their children; then Aegon's oldest legitimate child, Daeron II, and his children and their children - 8. Aerion's Maegor, 9. Daeron's Vaella, (Aemon should have been crossed out because of his maester's vows), 10. Egg, 11. Egg's children; (after Daeron's line it's turn of Aegon's other legitimized children, in order based on their age, the oldest has higher claim). 12. Bittersteel (born in 172), 13. Bloodraven (born in 175), etc. (It's likely that Ambrose Butterwell was one of Aegon's children, so he and his children also had a claim. And one of Aegon's oldest children was Balerion Otherys (he was born next after Daeron II), so if he was ever acknowledged by Aegon, he would have had a higher claim than Aegon's other children. Thus it would have been - Blackfyres, then Daeron's descendants, Balerion, and then Aegon's other legitimized bastards and their children).

Bloodraven had lower claims than Blackfyres, or even Bittersteel. Thus, as long as there were others in sucession line before him, he had no chances, and executing Aenys brought him only one step closer. For Bloodraven to be viewed as a candidate, not only Aenys but also Egg and all of his children also were supposed to die. In 233 Duncan the Small was approximately 13 years old. For example, Aegon III became the King when he was only 11. Thus even Egg's death wouldn't have made Bloodraven a viable candidate. And it's unlikely that he was willing to kill Egg and all of his children.

Furthermore, I think that Bloodraven was loyal to Targaryens, and that everything he ever did was for their welfare and for the greater good. But then he got binded to a weirwood tree (by his sister Shiera, for the sake of other Targaryens), and his current motivation is revenge to his relatives, not their wellbeing.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Bloodraven had lower claims than Blackfyres, or even Bittersteel. Thus, as long as there were others in sucession line before him, he had no chances, and executing Aenys brought him only one step closer. For Bloodraven to be viewed as a candidate, not only Aenys but also Egg and all of his children also were supposed to die. In 233 Duncan the Small was approximately 13 years old. For example, Aegon III became the King when he was only 11. Thus even Egg's death wouldn't have made Bloodraven a viable candidate. And it's unlikely that he was willing to kill Egg and all of his children.

Furthermore, I think that Bloodraven was loyal to Targaryens, and that everything he ever did was for their welfare and for the greater good. But then he got binded to a weirwood tree (by his sister Shiera, for the sake of other Targaryens), and his current motivation is revenge to his relatives, not their wellbeing.

So first of all I understand what you are saying and you said it well. It is the "classic" view of these events, for lack of a better name.

However, I suspect this is not what actually happened.

The point of calling a great council to get himself named King makes sense because Bloodraven clearly has a claim, and the "best" claims were already going to almost certainly be passed over. He wouldn't have had to kill Egg and his children. But he didn't need to call a council to crown Egg either.

I don't think Bloodraven was loyal to the Targaryens so much as he hated Bittersteal, which for a long time looked like the same thing. After years of ruling in all but name, he probably though it was his right and for "the greater good" for him to become king instead of a child or some hedge knight's squire.

I do agree that he is currently motivated by hate and revenge (if not the bound to a tree by Shiera part).

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Maekar had four children - Aerion was the oldest, then Daeron (he died before 233), then Aemon, and Aegon.

By their laws of inheritance the succession should pass to the children of the oldest son. Thus Aerion's son was first in line of sucession. When Lords dismissed Maegor, next in line, as a child of the second son, was Vaella. But she was also passed over, because she was a female, and because she was mentally unhealthy. Next was Aemon, but he refused to even participate in the Council, thus he wasn't one of four candidates. The third candidate was Egg, and the fourth was Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven wasn't one of those four candidates.

No, Daeron was the oldest, not Aerion, of Maekar's sons. You are right, of course, that the children of the oldest son comes before the brothers or sisters of the eldest son. Too many examples of this to name, but everyone should know this is true.

Daeron, deceased at the time of the Council,  had only one living child during the Council that put Egg on the Iron Throne. Her name was Vaella, and she was passed over and is described as a "lackwit."

Aerion, Maekor's second son, also deceased at the time of the Council, had one child named Maegor that the Lords decided to pass over his claim to the throne.

Aemon, Maekor's third son, was a sworn maester at the time of the Council and was quietly offered the crown, as the OP says, but declines. 

The question raised by all of this for readers is whatever happened to Vaella and Maegor? It is likely Vaella lived out her life quietly and left no children. We have no indication of what happened to baby Maegor, but I, and others, have suggested he or his daughter may have been married into the Dayne household, his grandmother's house, and the reason Ser Gerold Dayne is the "most dangerous man" in Dorne is because of his claim to the throne through Maegor.

[Mourning Star]

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The question raised by all of this for readers is whatever happened to Vaella and Maegor? It is likely Vaella lived out her life quietly and left no children. We have no indication of what happened to baby Maegor, but I, and others, have suggested he or his daughter may have been married into the Dayne household, his grandmother's house, and the reason Ser Gerold Dayne is the "most dangerous man" in Dorne is because of his claim to the throne through Maegor.

I'd take a step back first and ask about what happened to the other's in line so that a fourth son of a fourth son inherited.

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"Bloodraven put King Aerys on the Iron Throne, but for how long? Aerys is weak, and when he dies, it will be bloody war between Lord Rivers and Prince Maekar for the crown, the Hand against the heir."
"You have forgotten Prince Rhaegel, my friend," Ser Maynard objected, in a mild tone. "He comes next in line to Aerys, not Maekar, and his children after him."
"Rhaegel is feeble-minded. Why, I bear him no ill will, but the man is good as dead, and those twins of his as well, though whether they will die of Maekar's mace or Bloodraven's spells…" Seven save us, Dunk thought as Egg spoke up shrill and loud. "Prince Maekar is Prince Rhaegel's brother. He loves him well. He'd never do harm to him or his."

Rhaegel died in 215 AC, whilst choking on a lamprey pie.

Aelor was married to his twin sister, Princess Aelora. He died in 217 AC at the hand of his sister-wife through a mishap, which left her mad with grief.

Some time later, Aelora took her own life after being attacked at a ball by three men known as the Rat, the Hawk and the Pig.

And this was not the start of the suspicious deaths in the Targaryen line of succession.

Valarr died in 209 AC from the Great Spring Sickness, as did his younger brother Matarys, and their grandfather, King Daeron II Targaryen. In 211 AC, Duncan and Prince Aegon Targaryen heard a septon in Stoney Sept preach that the Hand of the King, Brynden Rivers, had killed Valarr's sons in their mother's womb, and suggest that Brynden was responsible for Valarr's death. The septon was later beheaded for speaking treason.

And it is still unclear to me how Aerys I died...

Even if you discount the deaths from the Great Spring Sickness as being unremarkable, there are still a series of suspicious deaths leading up to the Great Council, and Bloodraven is the obvious suspect, imo.

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The question raised by all of this for readers is whatever happened to Vaella and Maegor? It is likely Vaella lived out her life quietly and left no children. We have no indication of what happened to baby Maegor, but I, and others, have suggested he or his daughter may have been married into the Dayne household, his grandmother's house, and the reason Ser Gerold Dayne is the "most dangerous man" in Dorne is because of his claim to the throne through Maegor.

Could be.

Though I always thought that Maegor and Vaella died in Summerhall's burning. Because in that ritual were used 7 dragon eggs, thus there was 7 Targaryens to whom those eggs belonged. At the time of Rhaegar's youth there was no other Targaryen in 7K (besides his closest family), thus I assume that Rhae and Daella and their children and other Targaryens more distantly related to Egg all died in that fire.

1. Egg, 2. Rhae, 3. Daella, 4. Vaella, 5. Maegor, 6. Duncan the Small (probably he got an egg from Whitewalls, and only he as Egg's oldest child was given a dragon egg), and possibly 7. Shiera Seastar (Egg did requested mages to come from Asshai to participate in that ritual, so could be that Shiera was also there).

Vaella got Daeron's egg, after his death. Maegor got Aerion's. It's not like every Targaryen always had a dragon egg. Because dragons died years before Egg's generation. Thus Targaryens of further generations didn't had an option to give a dragon's egg to each of their children, because there remained only several of them and they were a rarity.

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

No, Daeron was the oldest, not Aerion, of Maekar's sons.

Yes, yes, I misremembered this part. I thought that Aerion was the oldest because of his brazen behavior and because Daeron was afraid of him.

[TheLastWolf]

Brynden may have had ideas for the IT. Only when he was alive tho. As a human. 

Now like Meg says, he'll avenge himself on Shiera/Quaithe for marrying him..... to a tree. COTF will have their revenge for the extinction of many magical creatures by humans. Others aren't true evil. 

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Though I always thought that Maegor and Vaella died in Summerhall's burning. Because in that ritual were used 7 dragon eggs, thus there was 7 Targaryens to whom those eggs belonged.

It's interesting that you mention Summerhall.

The Tragedy at Summerhall occurred in 259. Bloodraven disappeared beyond the Wall in 252, 7 years previously.

I expect it will turn out he was somehow responsible, at least in part, for the disaster.

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Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

But I do not understand the idea the Seastar had something to do with Bloodraven being in the Weirwood... Where does this come from?

[Mourning Star]

22 hours ago, Megorova said:

Bloodraven had lower claims than Blackfyres, or even Bittersteel.

Presumably both the Blackfyres and Bittersteel were attaind during one of their several open revolts. Bittersteel was even sent to the Wall.

While Aenys Blackfyre may well have put forward his claim in advance, a good point, he was beheaded when he arrived. While the gathered lords surely considered his decapitation, they question of his claim no longer needed consideration.

[Megorova]

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

But I do not understand the idea the Seastar had something to do with Bloodraven being in the Weirwood... Where does this come from?

Do you know how died wizard Merlin? According to the legend, his lover - water fairy Nimue, lured him to a cave, where she put him into a magical sleep, and when he woke up he was binded to a tree, and then she left him there. In British (or rather Irish and Welsh) mythology Nimue is also associated with Merlin's other lover - sorceress Morgan le Fay, and also with Morrigan the Queen of Phantoms. This Morrigan was a daity whose avatar was a crow. And "Mor" in Welsh in Morgan's and Morrigan's names means "the sea", and Shiera's name means the star of the sea, and she's a sorceress like Morgan le Fay, and she's sort of a water fairy like Nimue, and she's a shadowbinder Quaithe like Morrigan is the Queen of Phantoms/shadows, and also Shiera is the Three-Eyed Crow. Bloodraven is the parallel to Merlin, and Shiera/Quaithe/The Three-Eyed Crow is a parallel to Morgana, Nimue, and Morrigan the Crow.

<- But that's my personal opinion.

30 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Bittersteel was even sent to the Wall.

But he escaped before getting there, and he never gave a Night's Watch's vow, thus he didn't abdicated any rights he had. Also at the time of the Great Council, the King who sent Bittersteel to The Wall, Maekar, was already dead. Thus theoretically Bittersteel could have made a claim, and later in case if he was chosen as the King, he could have pardoned himself

33 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

While Aenys Blackfyre may well have put forward his claim in advance, a good point, he was beheaded when he arrived. While the gathered lords surely considered his decapitation, they question of his claim no longer needed consideration.

Though Aenys' children also could have made a claim of their own. And besides that, Aenys was not the last Blackfyre, there was also his nephew Daemon III, who was the son of Aenys' older brother, Haegon, thus even Daemon had a higher claim than Aenys. Also after Aenys there was two more male Blackfyres, his brothers, and then at least two sisters. And any of them also could have had children. And all those people were in line of succession prior Bloodraven. If the Lords were willing to consider Aenys' claim, then they would have been also willing to consider claims of other Blackfyres. At the time of his execution Aenys was at least 36 or 37 years old, thus I'm sure that he had children. My opinion is that when he came to Westeros, he took his family with him, but because he wasn't a total idiot, prior going to King's Landing, he left his family elsewhere, with Blackfyre-loyalists. That's why I think that there's a possibility that one of Aenys' daughters was Barristan Selmy's mother, which means that Barristan is a secret Blackfyre (that's why his mother's name in his entry in The White Book wasn't recorded, even though in Jaime's entry there, names of both of his parents were recorded).

[Mourning Star]

59 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Do you know how died wizard Merlin? According to the legend, his lover - water fairy Nimue, lured him to a cave, where she put him into a magical sleep, and when he woke up he was binded to a tree, and then she left him there. In British (or rather Irish and Welsh) mythology Nimue is also associated with Merlin's other lover - sorceress Morgan le Fay, and also with Morrigan the Queen of Phantoms. This Morrigan was a daity whose avatar was a crow. And "Mor" in Welsh in Morgan's and Morrigan's names means "the sea", and Shiera's name means the star of the sea, and she's a sorceress like Morgan le Fay, and she's sort of a water fairy like Nimue, and she's a shadowbinder Quaithe like Morrigan is the Queen of Phantoms/shadows, and also Shiera is the Three-Eyed Crow. Bloodraven is the parallel to Merlin, and Shiera/Quaithe/The Three-Eyed Crow is a parallel to Morgana, Nimue, and Morrigan the Crow.

I always learned the story as Merlin dying in a cave under a rock, but I like the parallel. 

Where "Bran" is welsh for crow, "Bryn" is welsh for hill. Meanwhile "Don" was a welsh goddess, mother of one of two warring families of gods, and the "Children of Don" were the indigenous gods, while the "Children of Llyr" were the invaders. Or they are called the forces of light and darkness... although to be fair it gets muddier as Llyr's wife was Don's daughter.

I also think that the The Dream of Rhonabwy is super interesting as far as references go. Arthur, while awaiting battle, plays a board game against Ywain, the son of Morgan le Fey, and Ywain's ravens fight with Arthur's squires. Both conflicts end in peace rather than continued conflict.

Mostly I love how deep the rabbit hole goes!

As far as the identity of the three eyed crow goes, I have to admit to really liking the idea that it's Old Nan the whole time.

[Megorova]

15 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I always learned the story as Merlin dying in a cave under a rock, but I like the parallel. 

There are several versions, like here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin#Merlin's_end

17 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

As far as the identity of the three eyed crow goes, I have to admit to really liking the idea that it's Old Nan the whole time.

There was a thread awile back about this topic (I also posted my theory there), and many people there agreed that the 3EC is not Bloodraven (what's with both him and Coldhands not giving a direct answear to Bran). Here it is:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150877-the-three-eyed-crow-is-old-nan-not-bloodraven/

[SFDanny]

14 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Even if you discount the deaths from the Great Spring Sickness as being unremarkable, there are still a series of suspicious deaths leading up to the Great Council, and Bloodraven is the obvious suspect, imo.

Why? Everything we know about him shows him to be a staunch defender of the ruling Targaryen family. Perhaps you could be more specific on just why you think Bloodraven would have been behind the deaths of any of the Targaryens you mention? He is the de facto ruler of the realm after the deaths in the Spring Sickness at least up until Maekar is crowned. Even then he retains his office as Hand of the King. If he wanted power total control, it would have made much more sense for him to have supported Aerion's son, Maegor, so he could be the Regent as well as the Hand. Instead he kills the Blackfyre Pretender and allows Egg to take the crown, and send him to the Wall. I fail to see why he is an obvious choice for orchestrating the deaths of members of the royal family. Perhaps I'm missing something?

[The hairy bear]

On 10/13/2020 at 8:03 PM, Mourning Star said:

And honestly, isn't he the obvious choice, having ruled in all but name for years already?

The year of the Great Council, Bloodraven was an unmarried, childless, 58 year old man. He had a inheritable genetic disorder. He was widely hated among half the realm, and the other half thought that he was a sorcerer and a cursed kinslayer. If he had made any attempt to claim the throne, everyone would be convinced that he had killed king Aerys, and the whole realm would unite against him.

He was a terrible candidate for king.

On 10/13/2020 at 8:03 PM, Mourning Star said:

It's obvious that nobody was supporting either Vaella or Maegor, so again, the question becomes why call a Council when there was a clear choice in Egg... because Bloodraven, who called the Council, wanted to pass him over as well.

We are told that in the Council some spoke for Maegor. And to be honest, he had the best claim by far, since precedent that women were excluded from the throne was firmly established, and after Baelor Breakspear died no one questioned that Daeron's successor would be Valarr (and not Aerys).

The reason why a Council needed to be called is legitimacy. If Aegon had been crowned without a Council, there would be always those who claimed that he was an usurper. And once Maegor was older, there would be a very big risk that discontent lords could gather around him and stage a coup. However, organizing a Great Council and having Egg crowned by the decision of all the Lords of the Realm, it becomes much harder to question his right to the throne.

[Mourning Star]

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Why? Everything we know about him shows him to be a staunch defender of the ruling Targaryen family. Perhaps you could be more specific on just why you think Bloodraven would have been behind the deaths of any of the Targaryens you mention? He is the de facto ruler of the realm after the deaths in the Spring Sickness at least up until Maekar is crowned. Even then he retains his office as Hand of the King. If he wanted power total control, it would have made much more sense for him to have supported Aerion's son, Maegor, so he could be the Regent as well as the Hand. Instead he kills the Blackfyre Pretender and allows Egg to take the crown, and send him to the Wall. I fail to see why he is an obvious choice for orchestrating the deaths of members of the royal family. Perhaps I'm missing something?

We see he hated Bittersteel and fought the Blackfyres but what gives you the idea he was so loyal?

Bloodraven becomes de facto ruler and remains such because of all the suspicious Targaryen deaths.  He has by far the most to gain from the deaths, and has the means to do it. This is why I said he is the obvious candidate, it is even literally suggested in the text of Dunk and Egg.

Presumably by the time Maekar was crowned, Bloodraven was to powerful to remove since its made pretty clear in Dunk and Egg that Maejor and Bloodraven did not get along.

The Maekar is killed in an uprising.

I am suggesting Bloodraven called the council to crown himself, and I do not think he "let" himself be sent to the Wall. Thus the largest guard since 5 kings were sent by Nymeria, including Dunk himself.

[Mourning Star]

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The year of the Great Council, Bloodraven was an unmarried, childless, 58 year old man. He had a inheritable genetic disorder. He was widely hated among half the realm, and the other half thought that he was a sorcerer and a cursed kinslayer. If he had made any attempt to claim the throne, everyone would be convinced that he had killed king Aerys, and the whole realm would unite against him.

He was a terrible candidate for king.

We are told that in the Council some spoke for Maegor. And to be honest, he had the best claim by far, since precedent that women were excluded from the throne was firmly established, and after Baelor Breakspear died no one questioned that Daeron's successor would be Valarr (and not Aerys).

The reason why a Council needed to be called is legitimacy. If Aegon had been crowned without a Council, there would be always those who claimed that he was an usurper. And once Maegor was older, there would be a very big risk that discontent lords could gather around him and stage a coup. However, organizing a Great Council and having Egg crowned by the decision of all the Lords of the Realm, it becomes much harder to question his right to the throne.

Do we know Bloodraven was childless?

I certainly agree that he wouldn't be a good candidate for king, but am trying to suggest that this isn't how he would see it. Maekar seems like like he had the best claim, but only a few spoke up for him, and Bloodraven would have known that. Once, you start skipping over claimants it open's the field to more claims.  Bloodraven would see himself as necessary and, after having ruled in all but name for so long, justified in taking power for the "greater good" as well as by right.

I think the realm did unite against him, and elected Egg.

I don't see anything to suggest Bloodraven supported Egg's ascension to the throne during the Great Council. In fact he probably seemed like another candidate who would be passed over, like the lackwit daughter and the mad man's newborn son, since many lords saw him as half a peasant (enough to try and get a sworn maester to renounce his vows).

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

We see he hated Bittersteel and fought the Blackfyres but what gives you the idea he was so loyal?

Because the evidence all shows him siding with the Targaryen royal family. The fact he sides with them against the Blackfyres is the central test in his loyalty. He fights at the Redgrass Field. He serves Targaryen Kings loyally, particularly as Hand to Targaryen Kings, by every indication we have. On the flip side, we have no evidence he was disloyal. If you have something that points to the contrary, beyond pure speculation, I'd love to read it.

Even his crime for which Egg sends him to the Wall, is an action that supports the ruling family's continued hold on power. Aegon's judgement of Bloodraven is, we are told, one which objects to Bloodraven's less than honorable way of dealing with a treasonous rival to the throne, not a ruling that suggest disloyalty to the ruling house.

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Bloodraven becomes de facto ruler and remains such because of all the suspicious Targaryen deaths.  He has by far the most to gain from the deaths, and has the means to do it. This is why I said he is the obvious candidate, it is even literally suggested in the text of Dunk and Egg.

I don't agree with the assessment that there are all these "suspicious Targaryen deaths" during Bloodraven's time in power. Deaths during a plague that kills so many isn't a clue of foul play. Nor is Maekar's death in battle. In fact, there is no reason, I see, to believe any of these deaths are suspicious. In fact, it seems to me, that Bloodraven benefited greatly in the success of his support for each Targaryen he was involved with during his time at court. If anything, it points to him as one of the greatest defenders of Targaryen power. The methods he sometimes used can, and should, be questioned but I don't see reason to question his loyalty, or accuse him of murdering members of the royal family.

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Presumably by the time Maekar was crowned, Bloodraven was to powerful to remove since its made pretty clear in Dunk and Egg that Maejor and Bloodraven did not get along.

The Maekar is killed in an uprising.

Not liking a king is not a sign of conspiracy to kill him.

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I am suggesting Bloodraven called the council to crown himself, and I do not think he "let" himself be sent to the Wall. Thus the largest guard since 5 kings were sent by Nymeria, including Dunk himself.

And yet we have no evidence that suggests Bloodraven ever put his own name forward for the Great Council to consider, or had anyone else do so. Perhaps that was because he didn't have a very good claim, or that he knew he didn't have the support to win the crown, or, perhaps because he was willing to support any of the candidates the Council decided to put on the Iron Throne, and thought any of them as having a better claim than he.

I do agree that he didn't just "let" Egg send him to the Wall. I think if he was as powerful as you seem to think, he could have opposed Aegon's sentence to death, or his banishment to the Wall. Which tells me he didn't have that kind of power to oppose Aegon, or he felt it his duty to submit to his King's judgement. He must have known it was possible the new king would object to his dishonorable entrapment of Aenys Blackfyre. As such, he sacrifices his honor for his new King's safety. Loyalty to, not conspiracy against the crown.

I would suggest an exercise in compare and contrast between Bloodraven and Grand Maester Pycelle who arrives at court just before the fires of Summerhall. The evidence if clear that Pycelle is disloyal to his Targaryen masters. His actions show him to be complicit in the ultimate destruction their dynasty. Bloodraven, on the other hand, appears as the antithesis of Pycelle.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Because the evidence all shows him siding with the Targaryen royal family. The fact he sides with them against the Blackfyres is the central test in his loyalty. He fights at the Redgrass Field. He serves Targaryen Kings loyally, particularly as Hand to Targaryen Kings, by every indication we have. On the flip side, we have no evidence he was disloyal. If you have something that points to the contrary, beyond pure speculation, I'd love to read it.

My point is that you are not providing any evidence either. What evidence is there that he was so loyal? And more importantly, as a Targaryen, I don't think he thought himself as disloyal by trying to claim the throne.

We know he hated the Blackfyres, but Egg doesn't seem to have a good opinion of him, nor does Maekar. We don't get any insight into the real feelings of most of the players at the time.

The fact is we just don't have that much information about what was going on. I would point to the absurd death count of Targaryens under suspicious circumstances, but obviously any discussion of this time period will be rife with speculation. But it is speculation raised in the text of Dunk and Egg, not invented by me.

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Even his crime for which Egg sends him to the Wall, is an action that supports the ruling family's continued hold on power. Aegon's judgement of Bloodraven is, we are told, one which objects to Bloodraven's less than honorable way of dealing with a treasonous rival to the throne, not a ruling that suggest disloyalty to the ruling house.

Maybe, again, hating Blackfyres isn't the same as loving Targaryens. I think Bloodraven was motivated by self interest, or his view of what was best, and that is literally the whole point here.

We do not know the details of the event, and that's why I'm speculating. Also, I don't think Bloodraven would say he was being treasonous or disloyal. He is a legitimized Targaryen and probably thought himself the best option for ruling, after having ruled in all but name for years already.

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I don't agree with the assessment that there are all these "suspicious Targaryen deaths" during Bloodraven's time in power. Deaths during a plague that kills so many isn't a clue of foul play.

Perhaps, Obviously we can't prove anything either way, although it does lead directly to Bloodraven becoming Hand of the King, and he by far the greatest beneficiary. The man who blames Bloodraven in the text is publicly executed and left to rot.

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Nor is Maekar's death in battle. In fact, there is no reason, I see, to believe any of these deaths are suspicious.

I suppose we just disagree here. Bloodraven was likely responsible for the death of Fireball before a battle, and certainly the deaths of Daemon and his sons on the Red Grass Field.

Daeron II, Valarr, and Matarys die of the Great Spring Sickness

Aerys I, cause of death unknown.

Rhaegel choked on lamprey pie.

Aelor died in a mishap with his sister wife Aelora.

Aelora committed suicide.

Maekar crushed by a rock in a siege.

Daeron died of a pox.

Aerion drank wildfire.

It is just incredibly hard for me to believe that this list of deaths is all just coincidence, from a very basic story telling perspective if nothing else.

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In fact, it seems to me, that Bloodraven benefited greatly in the success of his support for each Targaryen he was involved with during his time at court. If anything, it points to him as one of the greatest defenders of Targaryen power. The methods he sometimes used can, and should, be questioned but I don't see reason to question his loyalty, or accuse him of murdering members of the royal family.

Or that Bloodraven was in a position of power?

Take a look at Tywin for example. He served "loyaly" for a long time, but do you ever really think it was out of love for Aerys? I do not.

I think it was his own self interest and doing what he thought was "best".

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Not liking a king is not a sign of conspiracy to kill him.

Not sure what this is referring to.

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And yet we have no evidence that suggests Bloodraven ever put his own name forward for the Great Council to consider, or had anyone else do so. Perhaps that was because he didn't have a very good claim, or that he knew he didn't have the support to win the crown, or, perhaps because he was willing to support any of the candidates the Council decided to put on the Iron Throne, and thought any of them as having a better claim than he.

Because we haven't gotten that far in Dunk and Egg and it gives away too much about the future of ASoIaF.

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I do agree that he didn't just "let" Egg send him to the Wall. I think if he was as powerful as you seem to think, he could have opposed Aegon's sentence to death, or his banishment to the Wall. Which tells me he didn't have that kind of power to oppose Aegon, or he felt it his duty to submit to his King's judgement. He must have known it was possible the new king would object to his dishonorable entrapment of Aenys Blackfyre. As such, he sacrifices his honor for his new King's safety. Loyalty to, not conspiracy against the crown.

Or Egg surprises Bloodraven, probably largely in part because of powerful friends made during his travels with Dunk, like Lady Webber and her Lannister Husband, and the actions of himself and Dunk in the Blackfyre Revolt, Greyjoy attacks, etc.

I understand what I am suggesting isn't provable with the text so far, and I hear where you are coming from, but I think it is genuenly worth trying to read between the lines if we are going to speculate about where the story is going.