Alyn Oakenfist Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 So IRL there is an actual thing called inbreeding depressing, and no it's no the feeling of existential dread of being in Alabama, but rather a phenomena in which inbred couples have problems producing life and healthy children, resulting in numerous stillbirths due to the inbreeding. So that could explain Rhaella's problems in producing a second child. But how come no other Targaryen had that, or at least at anything near that extent? And if it wasn't inbreeding depression, what was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Aemma, Naerys, and Maegor would like to have a word with you. (Possibly Visenya and Rhaenys too.) In all seriousness, its because GRRM's family trees aren't realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 37 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: So IRL there is an actual thing called inbreeding depressing, and no it's no the feeling of existential dread of being in Alabama, but rather a phenomena in which inbred couples have problems producing life and healthy children, resulting in numerous stillbirths due to the inbreeding. So that could explain Rhaella's problems in producing a second child. But how come no other Targaryen had that, or at least at anything near that extent? And if it wasn't inbreeding depression, what was it? Poison? Perhaps by a Lannister-loving Grand Maester, whose job it is to care for an expectant queen and her newborns? Perhaps by a meddling eunuch who may or may not be plotting to destabilize the realm? Perhaps someone else with a grudge against the king, or the queen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 23 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said: Aemma, Naerys, and Maegor would like to have a word with you. (Possibly Visenya and Rhaenys too.) Aemma and Naerys were weak and sickly and they died veeery soon. Rhaella was strong enough to carry her children, it was just that they almost all were stillbirths or died immediately in infancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Queen Naerys nearly died after giving birth to her first child. In 161 she gave birth to twins that died shortly after. In 172 she again gave birth to twins, one was stillborn, the other was Daenerys (future wife of Maron Martell). Naerys nearly died then. Several years later she did died in childbirth together with her child. Daella Targaryen died after childbirth, she was 18 years old. Alyssa Velaryon died while giving birth to her 7th child, one of her first six (Vaella) died soon after birth. Alyssa's daughter, Jocelyn, was a frail child. And so was Aenys I Targaryen, son of Aegon the Conqueror. Valerion Targaryen, son of Alysanne Targaryen, died 14 days prior his first birthday in 78. Her other son, Aegon, was born premature and died soon after birth in 52. Her son, Gaemon, died three months old. Out of Alysanne's 13 children three died not long after birth. Ellia Martell nearly died after both of her pregnancies (she was partially Targaryen thru Daenerys, wife of Maron). Rhaenyra had a stillborn child in 129. That's 9 Targaryen children that were stillborn or died shortly after birth, and 3 women in Targaryen family who died while giving birth to their children. And I didn't even went thru the entire family tree, there's probably even more there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Megorova said: Queen Naerys nearly died after giving birth to her first child. In 161 she gave birth to twins that died shortly after. In 172 she again gave birth to twins, one was stillborn, the other was Daenerys (future wife of Maron Martell). Naerys nearly died then. Several years later she did died in childbirth together with her child. Daella Targaryen died after childbirth, she was 18 years old. Alyssa Velaryon died while giving birth to her 7th child, one of her first six (Vaella) died soon after birth. Alyssa's daughter, Jocelyn, was a frail child. And so was Aenys I Targaryen, son of Aegon the Conqueror. Valerion Targaryen, son of Alysanne Targaryen, died 14 days prior his first birthday. Ellia Martell nearly died after both of her pregnancies (she was partially Targaryen thru Daenerys, wife of Maron). Rhaenyra had a stillborn child in 129. Yes women dying in childbirth or having complications is not unprecedented, especially in Wetseros. But who is that list had more then 3 miscarriages stillbirths and sickly soon dead children. Rhaella had at least eight! Eight!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Rhaella was 13 or 14 when she gave birth to her first child. And that birth was pretty traumatic considering what happened at Summerhall. What happened at Summerhall very closely mirrors the pyre that Dany stepped into at the end of AGoT. We are told there was sorcery at Summerhall when it burned down, so that could have affected her. Daeron and Jaehaerys look to have died from SIDS. Viserys and Dany were born healthy and lived. I'm more inclined to think that Rhaella's issues stem from her youth when she got pregnant the first time and what happened at Summerhall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 I went straight for Maegor, but there are numerous Targaryens who had difficulty conceiving, carrying, birthing and nurturing babies. Blood of the dragon and all that I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Rhaella had at least eight! Eight!!! That's because she haven't recovered from her previous pregnancy when she became pregnant again. Miscarriage in 263, miscarriage in 264 <- which means that she got pregnant again shortly after the first miscarriage occured. Any doctor will tell you that after the pregnancy or miscarriage or abortion there should be at least several months of abstinence from sex. It's obvious that Aerys didn't cared about things like that and bedded his wife whenever he wanted. Rhaella's other pregnancies/miscarriages/stillborn children - 269, 270, 271, 272, 273, 274 <- see? every year, six years in a row. Her body didn't had a time to recuperate. That's probably the main reason for high mortality rate of her children/fetuses. Viserys was born in 276, so there was one full year long pause between this pregnancy and the previous one (that's because after one of their children died (born and died in 274), Aerys made a repentance walk, prayed to High Septon, and afterwards probably treated his wife better, didn't dragged her into bed while she was in mourning, which gave her body time necessary for recuperation). And in 277 Aerys was held as a hostage at Duskendale, and afterwards he didn't liked to be touched. Thus he didn't had sex with Rhaella until the beginning of Rebellion, when he started to burn people alive, which aroused him and returned him to his wife's bedroom. So there was 8 years long pause between Viserys' and Dany's births. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, Megorova said: 36 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Rhaella had at least eight! Eight!!! That's because she haven't recovered from her previous pregnancy when she became pregnant again. Miscarriage in 263, miscarriage in 264 <- which means that she got pregnant again shortly after the first miscarriage occured. Any doctor will tell you that after the pregnancy or miscarriage or abortion there should be at least several months of abstinence from sex. It's obvious that Aerys didn't cared about things like that and bedded his wife whenever he wanted. Rhaella's other pregnancies/miscarriages/stillborn children - 269, 270, 271, 272, 273, 274 <- see? every year, six years in a row. Her body didn't had a time to recuperate. That's probably the main reason for high mortality rate of her children/fetuses. Viserys was born in 276, so there was one full year long pause between this pregnancy and the previous one (that's because after one of their children died (born and died in 274), Aerys made a repentance walk, prayed to High Septon, and afterwards probably treated his wife better, didn't dragged her into bed while she was in mourning, which gave her body time necessary for recuperation). And in 277 Aerys was held as a hostage at Duskendale, and afterwards he didn't liked to be touched. Thus he didn't had sex with Rhaella until the beginning of Rebellion, when he started to burn people alive, which aroused him and returned him to his wife's bedroom. So there was 8 years long pause between Viserys' and Dany's births. That's actually a very good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 @Alyn Oakenfist Aemma is never described as being sickly. (Truth be told, she ain't described at all.) Honestly, I blame GRRM's inability to do math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said: @Alyn Oakenfist Aemma is never described as being sickly. (Truth be told, she ain't described at all.) Honestly, I blame GRRM's inability to do math. Nah, it ain't that. Incest is a very predominant theme across all of GRRM's body of work, especially his science fiction. I assure you he knows what inbreeding depression is. I think that while the Targaryens have a lot of incest in their family, they also have enough genetic diversity from marriages into other families to keep things fairly healthy. The only real example of inbreeding depression we get in these books is Craster and his wives/daughters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon The Black Dragon Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Yes women dying in childbirth or having complications is not unprecedented, especially in Wetseros. But who is that list had more then 3 miscarriages stillbirths and sickly soon dead children. Rhaella had at least eight! Eight!!! Alysanne Targaryen had 3 kids who all died within a year of their birth. Rhaella problem probably came from having Rhaegar young and her body not having time to recover after every pregnancy/miscarriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 The reproductive organs of flowers may offer some insight. Especially the stamen, Androecium, and pollen. Mating balls of bees and snakes are interesting as well. If ya wanna go deeper silk worms and moths. Adds a layer to the Game.Palimpsest. Reasons for war insects eat plants cycle of life...or I’m just looking to close. ( place quote here of Targaryens are not men. Whatever reason for polygamy.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 12 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: So IRL there is an actual thing called inbreeding depressing, and no it's no the feeling of existential dread of being in Alabama, but rather a phenomena in which inbred couples have problems producing life and healthy children, resulting in numerous stillbirths due to the inbreeding. So that could explain Rhaella's problems in producing a second child. But how come no other Targaryen had that, or at least at anything near that extent? And if it wasn't inbreeding depression, what was it? Except she had no problem with producing live and seemingly healthy children. Yes, Rhaella had stillborn children, but she also had many children born in what seemed to be fine condition, only to have them die later. The question becomes rather what was killing those children? Living in the unhealthiest city in the realm? Or perhaps someone helped them into an early grave to eliminate all those Targaryen children? If it is the later, then my bet is on Pycelle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 @Nathan Stark I meant more that a lot of his kings, queens, princes, and princesses marry absurdly young. (Aerys II/Rhaela, Aemma Arryn, Aegon II/Helaena, Maegor/Ceryse, Viserys II/Larra, Aenys/Alyssa, etc.) @SFDanny Look up the genealogy of the Plantagenets, Stuarts, or Capets and you'll find a lot of dead babies so Rhaella isn't so much unrealistic as everyone else in Westeros being super-lucky unless GRRM decides otherwise (e.g. Unwin Peake). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 19 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said: Aemma, Naerys, and Maegor would like to have a word with you. (Possibly Visenya and Rhaenys too.) In all seriousness, its because GRRM's family trees aren't realistic. This, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 The grand maesters were behind it. They were slipping drugs in the Queen's meals. Marwyn may give us the evidence in the next book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion I Targaryen Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 The best explanation is that her having pregnancies in a row exhauated her body. If you add the bad psychological state after all these miscarriages and stillbirths and her husband's accusations of her infidelity, her health is worsened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 She wasnt the only one if you look at the list of Targaryen stillbirths or children with disabilities. I think fire magic or incesting to keep fire magic or incesting over and over again might have something to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.