The Second Moon

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

So, I have known for a while that the name "azor ahai" comes from the Hindi asura = demon, and ahi = snake, so I finally got around to buying the Oxford Hindu/English dictionary and am working my way through it, and found the following:

 

Nisa: night, moving by night, nocturnal, a demon, evil spirit, a thief, a nocturnal animal, a demoness, a woman meeting her lover at night, night-time, lord of the night, the moon.

So I looked nisa up online, and found that nisa-nisa is a phrase that means "constantly"

Niśa (निश).—[-niśa] (cf. niśā), in a-niśa + m, adv. (Without rest) continually, [Śiśupālavadha] 9, 61.  . . ., 44. niśā-niśa + m, adv. Constantly, Mahābhārata 3, 12343.

nais: having to do with the night sky, nocturnal, the night sky, or the heavens

nisar: offering, sacrifice, devotion

nisan / nisana : sign, mark, scar, bull's eye, flag or banner, to shoot

nausi: bride

nis: out, away

nisi: night

nisadh: the name of a mythological mountain, or mountain range

ni-sit: whetted, ground; iron

nīsa (नीस).—m R Sense of soreness (in the breast or back) from a blow or from overexertion

ni-sith: midnight

nas: destruction, doomed, cursed, to be destroyed, vanish

nih-ses: vanished

 

So, nisa-nisa is "constantly night" she is the personification of the Long Night itself and she is something in the night sky--a nocturnal demon/moon/lord of the night/mountain--that is normally invisible.  She is a bride, and she is associated with doom and destruction, marks or scars or shots and banners (banner can mean comet "Joffrey's Banner", so a banner leaving a scar on a moon), newly sharpened iron and soreness in the breast, and sacrifices.

 

The whole Azor Ahai myth is a garbled mistranslation of the events of the last Long Night.

 

-----------

[sidebar about black planets]

And in the few pages between nisa and nais, is the word nibu which can mean a "self-invited guest; an idler" which sounds like the root of the word Nibiru, which is the mysterious planet X of all the ancient aliens pseudoscience--a planet X that is an uninvited guest.  And my theory on the Faith of the Seven is that the gods are the planets, and the Stranger is a black planet that is a wanderer from far places without a regular orbit, that is a god of death. 

And Yuggoth from Lovecraft is a wandering black planet, and uigean in Gaelic means "fugitive, lonely wanderer" and uigheach means "traveler" and uaig means "grave, or cave" and uagh means "terror, dread" and uig means “grave, tomb, sepulcher, den, cave”  --a wandering black planet of terror and dread and graves.  I am certain that George knows all this, because the god from In the House of the Worm is named Yaggalla, who is a god of death, and uig means grave or tomb.

One of the gods of death Arya sees in the House of Black and White is a huge stone face, half seen through the gloom, and the Lion of Night, and the Stranger, and another is the Black Goat.

For the story the Whisperer in Darkness we learn that the Black Goat of the Woods is closely associated with Yuggoth, and from the story the Tree on the Hill:

Quote

“So in the year of the Black Goat there came unto Nath a shadow that should not be on Earth, and that had no form known to the eyes of Earth. And it fed on the souls of men; they that it gnawed being lured and blinded with dreams till the horror and the endless night lay upon them. Nor did they see that which gnawed them; for the shadow took false shapes that men know or dream of, and only freedom seemed waiting in the Land of the Three Suns. But it was told by priests of the Old Book that he who could see the shadow’s true shape, and live after the seeing, might shun its doom and send it back to the starless gulf of its spawning. This none could do save through the Gem; wherefore did Ka-Nefer the High-Priest keep that gem sacred in the temple. And when it was lost with Phrenes, he who braved the horror and was never seen more, there was weeping in Nath. Yet did the Shadow depart sated at last, nor shall it hunger again till the cycles roll back to the year of the Black Goat.”

Theunis paused while I stared, bewildered. Finally he spoke. “Now, Single, I suppose you can guess how all this links up. There is no need of going deep into the primal lore behind this business, but I may as well tell you that according to the old legends this is the so-called ‘Year of the Black Goat’—when certain horrors from the fathomless Outside are supposed to visit the earth and do infinite harm.

I think the Black Goat is another name for the black planet that visits Earth and causes an endless night with its shadow, and when it is here all hell breaks loose, and things feed on the souls of men.  Also, the Tree on the Hill is about an Otherworldy monstrous tree that is an entrance to hell and appears in the shape a giant gnarled hand reaching out to kill the protagonist.  You can control the Black Goat/black planet with the the Shining Trapezahedron, which is analogous to the Bloodstone that the Bloodstone Emperor worshiped and I think used to cause the Long Night.

 

Jack Vance's Eyes of the Overworld is one of George's favorite books and on page 126 we get this line:  "The elder pointed toward the sky. 'If you had the eyes of a nocturnal titvit you might note a dark moon which reels around the earth, and which cannot be seen except when it casts its shadow upon the sun.  The Winged Beings are denizens of this dark world and their ultimate nature is unknown.' "

There is a black planet that circles the Earth and can only be seen when it eclipses the sun, and predatory dragons came from this dark moon.  The dark moon is not native to Earth because it is only there for a certain period of years and then it is gone, so presumably it has some way of moving around the solar system on its own.  This is the Qartheen Moon myth.  Also, the gaelic uigh / ugh means "egg" so the moon being an egg.  And ugan means upper part of the breast.

The phrase "Eyes of the Overworld" refers to purple eyes that can see into the Overworld, a utopian dimension on Earth, the people who wear the Eyes of the Overworld are living in complete squalor and filth but think they are living in paradise (like the Matrix or virtual reality goggles)--very much like Dany's experience in the House of the Undying. 

 

------------

Back to Hindi:

asur: evil spirit, demon, king of the demons, "enemy of the asuras:" a title of Vishnu

asur: pertaining to an evil spirit; a marriage in which the bride is purchased from her father and paternal relatives

ahi / ahai: a snake; mythological lord of the serpents: the snake Shesha; the snake's venom (opium); the king of the serpents; the snake bed of Vishnu: the snake Shesha.

aheri: anvil

aho / ahar: day

aha / ahah: exclamation of pleasure, also pain, pity, etc.

auzar: tool, implement, arms

a-hari: an eater

And between the entries of asur and ahi is the word astra

astra: weapon, spear, missile, arrow, and there is a specific kind of astra wielded by Brahma, the Brahmastra which is a kind of a world-destroying fire-ball missile

asthi: bone

 

So, Azor Ahai is an evil spirit, the king serpents, perhaps laying in a nest of serpents (weirwood roots), he has a bride, and he is associated with an anvil and tools, he makes arms--perhaps he makes astras--star-like flaming missiles that bring the day back.  His name is associated with cries of pleasure and/or pain.  He is wedded to Nissa Nissa / the black planet / The Long Night, but he also ritually sacrifices her with his flaming sword to bring back the dawn.  Flaming swords, flaming snakes, dragons, and comets are all mixed up.   Azor Ahai is a burning snake, or makes a burning snake, or both.  Azi Dahak is the three-headed dragon of Persian mythology, azi/ahi means "snake", and dahak means "burning"  a three headed burning dragon/sword/comet, or three appearances of a a burning comet?  The final one ends the Long Night.

 

In Hindi nagadaun (nagga + dawn?) means wormwood, and wormwood is the name of an apocalyptic comet from the bible, (and Mormont means wormwood, and the Red Comet is called Mormont's Torch)

In hindu myth naga is a serpent god with the face of a man and the body of a snake.

In Middle English Greyking or Greking means "dawn" and Old Norse gryja (sounds like "Greyjoy") means "dawn".  The Grey King was Dawn, and he is associated with the sea dragon Nagga, killing her and/or living inside of her, wearing a driftwood crown, she drowned whole islands, and Nagga's Cradle is where her bones lie, after the Grey King's death all of his works were washed away.  What if the tale is reversed?  The Grey King was a greenseer who sat a weirwood throne inside Nagga, and the Storm God's thunderbolt set the trees ablaze and turns Nagga into a comet, (a beam of light going up into the sky) she rose up into the sky, drowning the Iron Islands and washing away the Grey King's civilization, and bringing the Dawn in the process?  If Nagga's Ribs are a rib cage, and a heart tree is a heart, her chest was a cannon and she shot her heart (tree) upon it--also calls to mind the xenomorph chest-bursters from Alien.

 

Then there is a Sanskrit word Ashira:

Aśira  1) The fire. 2) The sun. 3) Wind. 4) A demon; Name of a Rākṣasa. 1) A beam, a ray; 2) An arrow, a bolt.

A beam/ray/arrow of fire from a demon, that is like the sun, or brings back the sun.  The Hardhome event was a huge explosion described as the sun rising in the North, and Wat's Wood burning was described as the sun rising. 

 

[Curled Finger]

Scary.

[TedBear]

interesting

[TheLastWolf]

@By Odin's Beard

Ive lived in India for a long time , yet not a fluent hindi speaker. There are 22 languages (Sanskrit and Tamil among oldest classical languages in the world) and 800 dialects in India. Meanings differ from village to village. So I'll look into Ur OP when free. 

[Nathan Stark]

I think LML over at the Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire podcast has the most convincing analysis of Azor-Ahai and Nissa Nissa. Basically he argues that "Nissa" is based on words in Scandinavian and American Indian languages. "Nissa" means "helpfull elf" in the Scandinavian translations, and "Grandmother Moon." Essentially the Azor-Ahai story is a moon myth.

LML argues that the Azor-Ahai story is essentially a story of horrific blood sacrifice, with Nissa Nissa being the victim and Azor-Ahai the villian, and his actions brought on the Long Night, instead of ending it. After all, consider the source of this story; Asshai. It is a Lovecraftian hellscape filled with shadowbinders, necromancers and other dark magicians. If these people call Azor-Ahai a hero, he's probably not someone we want to be around.

[TheLastWolf]

14 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

So I'll look into Ur OP when free. 

Ok B-O-B, Great OP. Nicely researched and executed. Good touch with the Gaelic, Nordic, Hindi and Sanskrit words. I might’ve bothered to point out a few minor errors (like how ‘ahi’ is a rare used meaning of snake, saaph is the common term like perambulating to walking, or how some other Hindi words are misinterpreted from the original, older Tamil root words by Oxford itself) if a few contradictory ideas hadn’t popped up in my mind.

GRRM knowing these Indian languages is unlikely. Not like his frequent use of adapted words and names from Old Welsh, Scandinavian and Gaelic words, And Elven and Dwarfish too (nod to JRR. T)

GRRM is an author who uses myths and legends and magicky stuff only for world building and makes exceptions slightly to induce the fantasy feel. He isn’t Rick Riordan.  He focuses on the human mind in conflict with itself more, Like Jaime, Theon and other character arcs. Magic stuff exists just to provide plot. 

It’s my opinion (and of a few others too I daresay) so nothing can be dismissed out of hand. Good work anyway.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

The Moon ("moon") is the mate of the Sun.  The Moon is destroyed by getting too close to the Sun and Dragons are born as a result.  The tale of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa is just another way of telling the same story. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

@Nathan Stark and @ravenous reader (I want you to hear this too )

I listen to Lml all the time, I just listened to 4 hours of his stuff today, and I know his theory well.  I think he has all the pieces of the puzzle there, but has them in the wrong order--and this is essentially a reordering of the pieces.   During the Long Night there was a second "moon" and it did eclipse the sun, and there was a comet that hit the second moon, and pieces of the second moon did fall to Earth.  But the fallout from debris was not the cause of the Long Night, the cause of the Long Night was the eclipse itself.  I think it was an eclipse that lasted for a generation, and was only ended when the comet knocked it out of eclipse formation. 

 

The wording of the legends is that the:

Quote

"Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men"

"the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail."

"Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time"

The sun turned its back, and hid its face.  It was eclipsed.  The disaster was ended by a woman with a monkey's tail, or a burning sword---that is a comet.  To be able to see a comet the skies must be clear. 

And my theory is that the 3 forgings of Lightbringer are 3 appearances of the Red Comet in the sky (the first passing through the constellation Aquarius (tempering in water), the second through Leo (tempering in the Lion's Heart, the star Cor Leonis is the lion's heart), and the third hitting the second moon Nissa Nissa--the skies had to be clear to see the comets.  The end of the Long Night would be the part best remembered, if it was an ash cloud, why do none of the tales mention it?   Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn has 3 appearances of a Red Comet, and the final appearance is when the sun has gone dark at noon, and the Storm King is taking over, and there is deafening clanging of a ghostly gigantic bell)

It is also said about the end of the Long Night that all the lesser gods united to sing "a secret song that brought back the day."  (In the book Comet by Carl Sagan, there are several promos from the appearance of Halley's comet in 1910, where the comet is shown and the word "song" "rag" is overlaid--so the comet itself could be a "song"--and a comet is ice but looks like fire--and there is a book called Fire and Ice: a History of Comets in Art that came out in 1986 when Halley came back,  I think the Red Comet itself is the Song of Ice and Fire.  In either case, something suddenly ended the Long Night.

To call something "the Lion of _____" is a fancy way of saying "the Badass Mofo of _____" the yellow solar lion became the black lion of night--the god of death eclipsed the sun. 

"the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light . . . until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears."

The Lion of Night is a celestial body that "mated"with the sun (eclipse formation) and the God on Earth shows up, and he creates an advanced empire with genetic engineering and then went back to his ship when he got sick or died. 

The Five Forts were built before the Long Night, as a preparation against the Lion of Night and its coincident invasion of the Others, did they predict the second moon disaster thousands of years in advance?  The Others are only a threat when it is totally dark, how could the Others have been a threat if the moon disaster hadn't happened yet and is a one time deal?

 

I have said this before, but when Joffrey the solar lion is poisoned, and his face turns black, (eclipsed) it was the Strangler that turned the sun's face black, one letter away from the Stranger--which I theorize is the black planet, the wanderer from far places, with stars for eyes.  The phrase "the night king Joffrey" is used three times in reference to this event,  I think the Night King's Crown is the corona (crown) of solar eclipse.  (The constellation Jon calls the King's Crown is really Corona Borealis--A celestial crown, I think Jon will wear the Night King's Crown)

In Jaime's weirwood stump dream, Jaime--the sun, and Brienne--the moon, are both in a cave underneath Casterly Rock--a gigantic lion-shaped rock that is known for casting shadows (Casterly = casting, get it?).  The Lion of Night has eclipsed the sun, in that darkness the Others come, and the only hope is a flaming sword that looks like the sword Dawn.

In the fight between the Mountain and the Red Viper, the Mountain is the black planet/second moon and the Red Viper is the weirwood comet, the Mountain eclipses the sun, the Red Viper grows wings, leaps off of the Earth, and vaults over the Mountain, spearing it with a poisoned leafy ash spear--unfortunately for the Red Viper, it was a kamikaze move and he is killed in the process--as weirwood comet impacting a "moon" would be.  His teeth "splintered" and is face is destroyed, but he successfully brought down the Mountain.

From Bran's coma dream: "There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."  --in Bran's dream, the Mountain eclipsed the sun, and he is a hollow stone giant.

 

The god of death is known as the Stranger, the Lion of Night, the Black Goat, the Giant Stone Face, etc.  The Lovecraft passage from the OP explains the Black Goat.  In the Lovecraft story the Outer Gods, a black planet that is a god eclipses the moon and its gravity is strong enough to pull things off the surface of the Earth.   It is a black planet, and it is called the black pit.  In At the Mountains of Madness, when flying over the Antarctic, Danforth sees something that makes him go insane, the first thing he calls it is "the black pit."  In a Cthulhu mythos story by Will Murray To Clear the Earth, a guy named Stark goes to Antarctica and accidentally wakes up a black sphere that shoots blackfire and turns everything to greasy black stone.

 

The second moon was not completely destroyed by the comet impact, merely damaged.  The Mountain lost his head, but was reanimated.  The moon cracked when Nissa Nissa was killed, but the moon was not obliterated.  The second moon is still hanging around, disrupting the seasons with its gravitational pull.  It is hanging out above Asshai, and that is why it is perpetually dim there and why the nights are described as "very dark," (can't see the stars) and why nothing grows, and the Essos version of the Great Other is sitting under the Shadow in Stygai.

The ghost grass is a metaphor for the Others, and it grows under the Shadow near Asshai, and one day will cover the whole world.

 

Maester Luwin was an astronomer who made "shadow maps" and was "measuring shadows" with the aid of a telescope, and luan (entry #1 entry #2) means "moon" and "doomsday/day of judgement" and luainich means "wanderer" and several words beginning with luan mean "chained or fettered".  A wandering doomsday moon, that is called a Shadow.  I think Luwin was watching and reporting on the Doomsday moon, which is called the Shadow, or the Shadow in the North that the Others live under--the Others live under a floating mountain.   

 

The "stone fist" that Lml thinks is a cloud of ash that blotted out the sun, the stone fist is actually a weirwood circle.  The weirwood tree at the crofter's village: "small wooded islands that punched up through the ice like the frozen fists of some drowned giant"

A weirwood tree is the fist of a drowned giant, that can punch up through the ground.  A giant under the sea, or inside the earth. 

Tyrion on the Rhoyne: "Off to starboard a hand large enough to crush the boat was reaching up from the murky depths. Only the tops of two fingers broke the river's surface, but as the Shy Maid eased on past he could see the rest of the hand rippling below the water and a pale face looking up."  A pale stone giant under the waters, its stone hand just poking up through the surface--threatening to destroy the boat.

The Fist of the First Men is a stone fist, a "Fist punching its way up through the green" with a ringfort atop it, (think weirwood circle) and they light a ring of torches up there, they are commanded by Mormont, (recall that mormont means wormwood comet in gaelic) and the Red Comet is called Mormont's Torch, and they shoot flaming arrows and burning brands from atop the hill and then the ring of torches departs the top of the hill and floats through the forest:

"Off to the left and right, half-seen through the silent trees, torches turned to vague orange haloes in the falling snow. When he turned his head he could see them, slipping silent through the wood, bobbing up and down and back and forth. The Old Bear's ring of fire, he reminded himself, and woe to him who leaves it."

 

In Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, there is a repeated theme of a giant stone fist punching up through the ground (see this post).  And in that story their version of the Great Other (the Storm King) is described as a weirwood hill:

Quote

A shape loomed before him, an antler-headed shadow massive as a hill.  It wore a crown of pale stones, and its eyes were red fires.  Red was its hand, too, and when it clutched and lifted him the fingers burned like fiery brands.  White faces flickered up all around, wavering in the darkness like candle flames.

A giant antler-crowned hill, that has red hands, fiery eyes, and a pale stone circle, a weirwood circle comes to life and a giant hand does menacing stuff--and it is accompanied by the white faces of the Norns (the Others).  The Antler crown of the green men refers to the weirwood circle in the grove above their heads.

This is going to be in an upcoming post about "Castles = Weirwoods," so Robert Baratheon was the Storm Lord, before becoming king he lived at Storms End, the Lord of Storms End wears the Antler Crown, Barathrum means "abyss" in Latin, an Rabarta means "storm, burst of fury" in gaelic, Storms End has a smooth round curtain wall and a central tower that is a stone fist that punches up into the sky.  He is a representation of greenseer in the abyss under a weirwood castle with an antler crown who's name means "storm" and "fury" and "abyss."  The Stone Fist is a weirwood, and it can have a burst of fury and punch up into the sky.

 

Lml has struggled with several elements of his theory:

If the second moon was destroyed, how will the Long Night come again? 

How does lighting a weirwood tree on fire end the Long Night? 

What are these comets made of and where are they coming from? 

How will the new Long Night dramatically end within the span of the books if it is an ash cloud that has to disperse on its own over a generation or more?  

My theory answers all these questions and more. 

How were the seasons normal just a few thousand years ago, but are now all messed up?  And how will they go back to normal?  Answer--the God on Earth arrived in a huge black planet, the gravitational pull of which is causing polar shift, and as soon as it departs, things will go back to normal.

 

For another thing, if a moon large enough to cause an eclipse was destroyed by a comet--which is not even possible as a comet is mostly ice, the fallout would have lasted for how long?  Tens of thousands of years?  Certainly longer than a generation.  

 

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ok B-O-B, Great OP. Nicely researched and executed. Good touch with the Gaelic, Nordic, Hindi and Sanskrit words. I might’ve bothered to point out a few minor errors (like how ‘ahi’ is a rare used meaning of snake, saaph is the common term like perambulating to walking, or how some other Hindi words are misinterpreted from the original, older Tamil root words by Oxford itself) if a few contradictory ideas hadn’t popped up in my mind.

GRRM knowing these Indian languages is unlikely. Not like his frequent use of adapted words and names from Old Welsh, Scandinavian and Gaelic words, And Elven and Dwarfish too (nod to JRR. T)

GRRM is an author who uses myths and legends and magicky stuff only for world building and makes exceptions slightly to induce the fantasy feel. He isn’t Rick Riordan.  He focuses on the human mind in conflict with itself more, Like Jaime, Theon and other character arcs. Magic stuff exists just to provide plot. 

It’s my opinion (and of a few others too I daresay) so nothing can be dismissed out of hand. Good work anyway.

Thanks, so in my research I have found that Lovecraft (and his contemporaries), Robert Jordan, Tad Williams, Jack Vance,, and Tolkien all seemed to do the same thing--which is to browse through a translation dictionary for inspiration about plots and characters.  I think most of them could not speak these languages (with the exception of Tolkien) and the extent of their knowledge of the languages was what could be gleaned by an English speaker unfamiliar with the language.   They would find a word they liked and built a character around it, and sometimes us surrounding words to build a character, even if the word is unrelated--which I think I have demonstrated above with the nisa and asur ahi. 

I think I can even tell you what gaelic dictionary Lovecraft had based on the names he came up with (Dwelly's) and I think George primarily works from Dinneen's--and only sometimes from Dwelly's.  Robert Jordan used a Hindi dictionary and a gaelic one, Tad Williams used a German one,  Tolkien used gaelic and hindi. 

Check this out, Lovecraft repeatedly denied the name Cthulhu had any basis in the known languages of men--I think he was lying and trying to remain mysterious, and he tried to obfuscate the issue by repeatedly changing the pronunciation.  I think he wanted a name based on the word chthonic meaning "underworld," so he flipped open Dwelly to the "c" section.

cith = "havoc, rage, fury, mist, lake, snow, particle"

cuiteal = "cuttlefish"

cathu = "offensive fish smell"

cuithe = "trench, pit, deep moist place, snow, enclosure"

cathar = "swamp"

cath = "battle fight"

cat mhara = "sea devil, fish frog"

cath = "riddle, bran, snow, crown"

 

and in the Oxford Hind dictionary;

cit = "overthrow" or "piece of paper"

citharna = "tear to pieces"

citr / citna / citera = "paint or engrave"

cita = "funeral pyre"

citt= "mind, understanding"

 

And thus we have a telepathic undead sea devil cuttlefish, that is imprisoned deep under the sea, and waits in fury to overthrow the world.  He deals in riddles, and the riddle is solved by finding a piece of paper by accident, and artists are inspired to carve images of him.  He is worshiped by fish frog people.

His followers say the chant "Cthulhu fhtagn" which they say means "cthulhu sleeps" 

in gaelic feitigim means "I calm, quieten"

Dead Cthulhu lies waiting in his stone city at R'yleh, Lovecraft originally was going to call it L'yeh

in gaelice Lige (pronounced liya or lie) means "grave"

reilig / railge / railig means "grave, burying place, crypt" and reighlios means "church, shrine, sanctuary"

 

George wrote a story called a Song for Lya, about Lya joining a death cult and feeding herself to a cave-dwelling fungous.  Lige means tomb.  Liag / leige mean tombstone.  (Lyanna's character is built around these and lean = "sorrow", leanaim "to pursue, chase," and leannan = "lover, paramour, chronic ailment, infirmity")

There is a Poe story called Ligeia, (made into the move a Tomb for Ligeia) about a man who deeply loves a black haired woman, she gets sick and dies, and the protagonist gets remarried to a blonde woman.  He hates the new blonde wife and wishes she were Ligeia.  Ligeia haunts him from beyond the grave so that he cannot be happy.  This is the plot of Robert, Lyanna, and Cersei.   

 

 

I think George when he was young went down the rabbit hole of deciphering these names, his story the Stone City features a character who tries to map the mysterious Lovecraftian Stone City, in order to sell the maps as his ticket out of Grey Rest.  The maps are a metaphor for him writing literary analysis of Lovecraft, and unifying the Lovecraft's mythos (the main character Holt descends into the Stone City and lives there forever in a network of tunnels with doors to other worlds--it is a metaphor for wasting your life inside other peoples' works of fiction a form of escapism.)  I think George succeeding in uniting the Lovecraft mythos and ASOIAF is the result.  I think he came to the conclusion that all of Lovecraft's Old Gods were one creature, Cthulhu, the fungi from Yuggoth, the Yog-Sotthoth, Yig, the Elder Things--they are all united into the weirwood. 

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

The Long Night was caused by a "Cauldron" 

First check out this painting by John Martin called "Satan presiding at the Infernal Council"and recall that satan = lucifer = lightbringer.  He is sitting on a huge black sphere.  And there are rings of flame floating in the sky. 

In Norse mythology gigantic wolves named Scoll and Hati eclipse the sun and moon during Ragnarok.

In the Oxford English Dictionary, alternate spellings of skull include scoll or scull.  Skull / scull means “drinking bowl or vessel.”  The holy grail was originally a cauldron, then a stone, then latter became a platter, then a drinking vessel or chalice.  The grail is believed to grant eternal life.  The grail is referred to as an “Otherworld vessel” in Richard Cavendish’s King Arthur and the Grail 16 times—a metallic vessel from another world?  The Holy Grail is sometimes depicted as floating in the sky with a halo around it, as in Indian Jones and the Last Crusade, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, this painting of the huge Grail floating in the sky while a temple is destroyed during the Dolorous Stroke.  And it is associated with a magical bloody lance, or a flying lance, which delivers the Dolorous Stroke. which if the grail is the Second Moon, the magic flying bloody lance is the weirwood.  Also, the bloody lance pierces the Maimed King in the leg or groin, weirwood roots in a greenseer's legs.  The Winged Chalice is featured on several house sigils.

 

The book Castles by Alan Lee has an entry about Magic Cauldrons that bring the dead back to life page #1 page #2:

Quote

Quest to the Castle of the Cauldron

The theme implicit in the constant renewal of the Castle of Skulls is repeated in the many tales of magic cauldrons whose chief property is to bring the dead back to life.  The quest for a magic cauldron guarded in a hostile or dangerous castle is the theme of a Welsh tale of Bran the Blessed.  It is found in stories of the Irish Cuchulainn and the Norse stories of Odin and Thor--all of whom succeeded in such a quest.

At least one story of the Castle of the Cauldron has some curious implications.  This is the tale of the British hero Arthur who, with many companions, goes on a quest to the land of Annwn, a mysterious place whose name literally means 'not world'.  Here Arthur attempts to find the Castle of the Magical Cauldron. . .

The early Arthur, however, is a a very different man from the later king of Camelot.  But it could well be that this early tale of Arthur is the source for what later became the quest for the Grail Castle, for the Castle of the Cauldron is a most amazing place.  It is a magnificent glass castle, foursquare and magically revolving in an isle ringed by the heavy blue chain of the sea.  It is a rich and royal castle, but is guarded by silent, ghostly sentinels and is plunged in darkness.  At the castle's center is the object of the Quest, the pearl-rimmed cauldron of poetry and inspiration attended by nine beautiful virgin priestesses.

Arthur and his men of Britain attempt to carry off the cauldron out of the mysterious otherworld of Annwn.  But the perils prove so overwhelming that of all those who set out, only seven return.

In the Spoils of Annwn, Arthur goes to the Otherworld to find the magic cauldron that brings the dead back to life (and he suggests that the cauldron = the holy grail) it is hidden in the Otherworld in a floating castle guarded by ghostly sentinels, in a Castle plunged in darkness, and maybe chained down, the cauldron is "pearl-rimmed"--a black object that is bright around its rim sounds like the description of a solar eclipse.

(The grail is sometimes called a cornucopia, which is a type of horn, and Mance (Arthur) went to the Otherworld to find a magic horn that would release the ghostly sentinels and bring the dead back to life)  In Hindi, arth means “object, purpose, motive” and arthi means “seeking after”

In the Wheel of Time series, the Horn of Valere brings the dead back to life.  I think the Dragonbinder horn is a horn from Valyria that moves the Second Moon and by doing so brings the wall down and eclipses the sun, allowing the Others to move south and so brings the dead back to life. 

The book Encyclopedia of Mythology has a good entry on Magic Cauldrons, page 1 page 2.  He describes Bran's Cauldron as a large tub.

In Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, Rhynn's Cauldron is a big cauldron that is hung upside down and used as bell--it is rung to signal an invasion.  Among other things, rinn means "planet" in gaelic.  And the climax of MST has repeating deafening clanging of a ghostly phantom bell when the sun has gone dark and the Storm King is coming back from the dead.

In Irish mythology Bran's Cauldron reanimates the dead.  And Bran the Blessed is described as a giant floating head, and his arrival signals an invasion.  Alan Lee's illustration of Bran's Cauldron shows the Cauldron superimposed on a giant undead severed head.  So a cauldron / bell / planet / giant skull.  The arrival of a black cauldron signals the beginning of the invasion of the undead.  A huge black planet that causes an eclipse and allows the Others to invade.  Bran's Cauldron is shattered and destroyed by a guy name Nisien, who goes inside of it and blows it up.  In gaelic bran means "black" and "crow" and abhron means "cauldron" (in the World of Ice and Fire book, the shadow of a gigantic planet-sized crow is being cast over Dorne) 

And in gaelic cro and cro means "prison, eye, circle, death, gore, bloody, red, claw" 

 

Bran is the Winged Wolf being held down by stone chains--the Castle of the Cauldron was said to be "ringed by the chain".  In Norse mythology, at Ragnarok the wolf Fenrir breaks his fetters and his wolf children swallow the sun and moon.  Skoll eats the sun (or is it Skull?)--a giant Skull swallowing the sun (Rahu in Hindu myth is a giant severed head that swallows the sun).

Gregor Clegane is the "Mountain that Rides" and in Bran's coma dream he was a huge hollow stone giant that eclipses the sun--a floating hollow black moon perhaps.  And clag or clagan mean "bell" in gaelic, claigeann means "skull" and clogyn means "cloak or mantle" in Welsh.  He later becomes undead-Mountain--so there is a link between the Mountain and the dead being reanimated.  The black basalt cliff of Clegan are mentioned in Tuf Voyaging.

 

The maps in the World of Ice and Fire all have that little glyph in the shape of a bell, with a partially visible (eclipsed) black circle, and a goats horn/cornucopia (black goat), and a symbolic depiction of a shadow.  I think this is the Maester's way of indicating that the Shadow Moon is visible from that location. (several of those maps have additional glyphs that also seem to be depicting eclipses) and the map of Dorne has three glyphs that indicate where a water-well is, the glyph is a cauldron casting a shadow, and the Dorne map has several watermarks from cups that look like eclipses.

 

In the Wheel of Time, Shai’tan is imprisoned under a great black mountain Shayol Ghul, in Hebrew sheol means “underworld”, and shail means “mountain” in Hindi. 

The dark lord is called: Sightblinder, Lord of the Grave, Lord of the Twilight, Shepherd of the Night, Heartsbane, Heartfang, Leafblighter, Father of Storms, Lighteater, Great Lord of the Dark, Lord of the Grave, Lord of the Evening - a name used in the Prophecies of the Shadow,  The name Ba'alzamon (meaning "Heart of the Dark" in Trolloc)

 

In Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, Jarnauga was a member of the League of the Scroll and his job was to watch and report on the deadly mountain Stormspike (Jarnauga had superhuman eyesight).  The Storm King is trapped inside their version of weirwood network (the Dream Road), but can appear in the well underneath the Mountain.  The Norns are white undead looking things and they live in darkness under this mountain in the far north.  When they move south they bring the cold with them and they are accompanied by the sky darkening, because they can only move in darkness.  Ineluki is also known by the name Logi, in Norse mythology Loki gets imprisoned in a cave under a mountain, and is released during Ragnarok.  Jarnauga has a huge tattoo of a serpent across is back and arms which is a depiction of the constellation Serpens, the brightest star of which is Unukalhai “neck of the serpent”—from which the name Ineluki is derived.       

Ineluki is named after a celestial serpent, in ASOIAF, the Ice Dragon constellation has a rider with a bright blue eye which is the Great Other. 

In Hindi:  jauhri = "appraiser (of stones), expert", and naga = "snake"  Jarnauga watches the stone and awaits the serpents return.

 

Luwin is the counterpart of Jaurnauga.  As I already said, Maester Luwin was an astronomer who made "shadow maps" and was "measuring shadows" with the aid of a telescope ("far-eye"), and luan (entry #1 entry #2) means "moon" and "doomsday/day of judgement" and luainich means "wanderer" and several words beginning with luan mean "chained or fettered".  I think Luwin was watching and reporting on the Doomsday moon, which is called the Shadow, or the Shadow in the North that the Others live under--the Others live under a floating mountain.    luanchad means "eclipse of the moon" and luan-lait is "the light that is supposed to issue from a champion's head in battle, hero's light"--that sounds like it could be describing the sun's corona during an eclipse--or the Night King's Crown.

(also luan means "champion" and griogar means "champion" so there is a link between moons and mountains, and luan means "greyhound" and Gregor's brother is a grey Hound)

Shadows in the North: Skagos means "stone" in the Old Tongue and Skygge/skuggi means "shadow" in Norse.  A giant stone shadow where shaggy giant black goats live.  Umber/umbra means "shadow" and their sigil is a giant breaking its chains.  Do the Black Brothers observe the Shadow from The Shadow Tower?  (brothaire means "cauldron" and "butcher" in gaelic)  fyi, Blackguard means "untrustworthy, dishonorable," the Nights Watch is a blackguard, and they are crows, who are untrustworthy.

 

 

The God of Death (and rebirth):

Take a look at the list of the different alias of the many-faced god found in the House of Black and White.

Quote

Statues of them stood along the walls, massive and threatening. Around their feet red candles flickered, as dim as distant stars. The nearest was a marble woman twelve feet tall. Real tears were trickling from her eyes, to fill the bowl she cradled in her arms. Beyond her was a man with a lion's head seated on a throne, carved of ebony. On the other side of the doors, a huge horse of bronze and iron reared up on two great legs. Farther on she could make out a great stone face, a pale infant with a sword, a shaggy black goat the size of an aurochs, a hooded man leaning on a staff. The rest were only looming shapes to her, half-seen through the gloom. Between the gods were hidden alcoves thick with shadows, with here and there a candle burning. . .

Thirty different gods stood along the walls, surrounded by their little lights. The Weeping Woman was the favorite of old women, Arya saw; rich men preferred the Lion of Night, poor men the Hooded Wayfarer. Soldiers lit candles to Bakkalon, the Pale Child, sailors to the Moon-Pale Maiden and the Merling King. The Stranger had his shrine as well, though hardly anyone ever came to him. Most of the time only a single candle stood flickering at his feet. The kindly man said it did not matter. "He has many faces, and many ears to hear."

Massive and threatening looming shapes, half-seen through the gloom, amidst the stars.

A great stone face, the Lion of Night (sits an ebony throne, named as being responsible for the first Long Night), the Stranger (black hooded figure with stars for eyes), a huge black goat, a hooded man/hooded wayfarer, Weeping Woman/a moon pail maiden with a bowl (what if it is pail as in a metal bucket? associated with a moon + bowl/Holy Grail), Bakkalon--the Pale Child (again could be pail) the Merling King, a huge metallic horse--(The Stallion that Mounts the World, eclipses are described as "mating" in the texts.)

When you go into the House of Black and White you die and are reanimated.

@hiemal I think this black planet, also known as The Lion of Night / Stranger / Qartheen Second Moon / Great Stone Face, is what the Bloodstone Emperor “warged” to cause the Long Night and allow the Demon Army to invade.  He was only defeated when a coalition of greenseers chased The Eldritch Shadow away with the flaming sword/monkey tail--knocked it out of eclipse with a red comet and brought the dawn.

 

In the Whisperer in Darkness, the black planet Yuggoth is called ‘nighted Yuggoth”—I think George is doing the night/knight wordplay, and the stories about the black planet are knights, knighted Yuggoth.

 

Galladon and the Just Maid

gall means "Stranger, stone vase, boiler, rock" in gaelic, and guala means "large vessel", and gual means "coal", guil means "weep, cry, lament"

gaileadan means "kettle, boiler, and voracious eater" in gaelic,

The Story of Galladon of Morne describes him as the Perfect Knight--what if it was really a perfect night--as in the Long Night.

sgaladh means "kettle, cauldron" and sgala means "ill-shaped hood, or tunic"

In Arthurian myth, Galahad finds the Holy Grail, and gailiughad means "steaming, boiling"

 

Galladon was the Stranger/cauldron/Shadow Moon and the Just Maid was the red comet that struck it.

"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair."

In gaelic Maighdean refers to the zodiac constellation Virgo (and it means "beheading instrument"), and Meidh refers to Libra, the scales (and it means "trunk of a tree").  So a beheading instrument / trunk of a tree is associated with maiden/maid zodiac constellations.

If the enchanted sword Just Maid is the Red Comet being fired from Mars when Mars in the Moonmaid. or Virgo / Libra (Moonmaid + Scales of Justice) towards Earth, this account makes sense.  Brienne refers to the Just Maid as a "bloody sword" and it makes three appearances.  The Maiden "lost her heart to him"--her chest was a cannon and she shot her Heart Tree upon him, and she "gave him the sword."  Maidin means "dawn" in gaelic (and "little stick"), so that supports the Dawn = Lightbringer Comet hypothesis.

In the conversation between Brienne and Nimble Dick, they mention the possibility of a fight between Galladon and Clarence Crabb whose weapon is an uprooted tree that he can throw through the air--and they suggest the bloody comet/sword would have come into play, and Dick says Crabb would have decapitated Galladon, and maighdean means decapitation and meidh means the trunk of a tree. 

Oh, and craobh means "tree" in gaelic.

The three appearances of the sword match the Azor Ahai myth. 

The Whispers have talking decapitated heads, like Bloodraven's cave.  The Whispers have a beacon tower sinking into the sea, and a ruined castle that the godswood has taken over and poisonous red vines are growing through it.  Beacon means "mushroom" in gaelic, and the Hightower is a huge beacon tower that is red and white.

 

--------------------

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield fought a dragon, (in Welsh cerwyn means "vat/tub" from the Latin word for "keel"--boat/tub) and he speared the dragon through the eye. 

In gaelic sgail means "shadow or eclipse" as well as "reflection".  Another way to say sgail is sgath, meaning "shadow, shade, veil, phantasm" and sgathan means "mirror" sgath also means "fright, fear, dread" and "consuming, destruction, waste, havoc" and "lopping, pruning"  and scail means "shadow, reflection, ghost, astral body"

So the reference to having a mirror shield might actually be a mistranslation of "during an eclipse."  Oberyn used the mirror shield trick in his fight with the Mountain when the Mountain had eclipsed the sun. 

So Serwyn of the Mirror Shield was a black metallic vessel that eclipsed the sun. Serwyn was haunted by ghostly knights, the Others are ghostly knights.  And he was involved with a duel with a dragon using wooden spears.  Tyrion mentions that someone else who tried this tactic got roasted by the dragon, so there is some confusion about who got killed in this sort of fight--it is a kamikaze move after all.

 In Greek myth, Perseus kills the Medusa with help from a mirror shield.  The Medusa is a winged hag with snakes for hair, she lives in a cave, and turns people to stone.  When Perseus cuts her head off a winged horse Pegasus and a giant with a golden sword leaps out of her body.  In a mirror-shield incident, a weirwood gets decapitated and a flying horse/golden sword are launched out of its body.

 

George wrote a story years ago called Only Kids are Afraid of the Dark, where Saagael was a god of darkness who wanted to create a Long Night that never ended.  In ASOIAF they still worship Saagael in Lys.  And Saagael is mentioned as one of the Seven cosmic deities in The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr.  And the Seven take turns haunting the sky above Laren's castle:

Quote

The sky was very dark, but she could see clearly, for against the darkness a shape was moving. Light poured from it, and the dirt in the courtyard and the stones of the battlements and the gray pennants were all bright beneath its glow. Puzzling, Sharra looked up.

Something looked back. It was taller than the mountains and it filled up half the sky, and though it gave off light enough to see the castle by, Sharra knew that it was dark beyond darkness. It had a man-shape, roughly, and it wore a long cape and a cowl, and below that was blackness even fouler than the rest. The only sounds were Laren’s soft breathing and the beating of her heart and the distant weeping of a mourning-bird, but in her head Sharra could hear demonic laughter.

(note Sharra [means “freedom” in gaelic, one letter away from Asharra] has a brief affair with a melancholy, long-faced man who dresses in grey and who wears a wolf’s-head cloak [proto-Stark], they cannot stay together and he pushes her out of a tower.  Sharra has grey eyes and black hair)

Anyway, the Black Hooded Man was bigger than a mountain, and filled up half the sky.  He is one of the Seven, who are cosmic deities that appear in the night sky.

The sigil of House Banefort is a Hooded Man causing an eclipse.  And the Hooded Man is one of the gods of death of the House of Black and White (along with the Lion of Night, the great stone face, and the Stranger)  The Hooded Wayfarer is the wandering black moon.  The Stranger is a hooded man with stars for eyes.

 So a shadow planet which is called a cauldron because it is black (and metallic?) and also called a mirror and a hooded man due to a translation error, which is accompanied by fear, dread, havoc, and destruction and a drove of slaves (of undead, many of which are crows).  The moon is also difficult to see because it is black and does not reflect light--it is veiled.  The gods of death in Arya's chapter are only half-seen through the gloom.

 

------------------

In the Weasel Soup incident, Jaqen, Arya, Rorge and Biter carry boiling kettles through a black castle, and dump boiling broth on the guards, and free the Northmen who Arya refers to as "all these others".  Before the event Jaqen tells Arya: "The hungry gods will feast on blood tonight"

Hagar means "stranger" in Hebrew, and "Rorge and Biter" is an anagram of "orbiter danger" and they use boiling kettles to free the "others."  In gaelic, neas means "weasel" and "Earthen vessel", and "nearest"—neas neas?

A black kettle releases the Others.  A black kettle that is associated with the Stranger, it is an orbiter that is dangerous, and is the nearest moon/earthen vessel/Nissa Nissa

 

 

That's all for now.

 

 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ok B-O-B, Great OP. Nicely researched and executed. Good touch with the Gaelic, Nordic, Hindi and Sanskrit words. I might’ve bothered to point out a few minor errors (like how ‘ahi’ is a rare used meaning of snake, saaph is the common term like perambulating to walking, or how some other Hindi words are misinterpreted from the original, older Tamil root words by Oxford itself) if a few contradictory ideas hadn’t popped up in my mind.

GRRM knowing these Indian languages is unlikely. Not like his frequent use of adapted words and names from Old Welsh, Scandinavian and Gaelic words, And Elven and Dwarfish too (nod to JRR. T)

GRRM is an author who uses myths and legends and magicky stuff only for world building and makes exceptions slightly to induce the fantasy feel. He isn’t Rick Riordan.  He focuses on the human mind in conflict with itself more, Like Jaime, Theon and other character arcs. Magic stuff exists just to provide plot. 

It’s my opinion (and of a few others too I daresay) so nothing can be dismissed out of hand. Good work anyway.

I do think OP has a point in looking at Hindi and Sanskrit in regards to this prophecy. Scandinavian and Gaelic influences are definitely quite prevalent in Westeros, both in culture, and language, but it's quite clear that the civilisations in Essos are based loosely on various Eastern cultures, so it does make sense for him to use slightly adjusted words from languages such as Hindi and Sanskrit, to give the impression of a language with a different origin. And indeed Azor Ahai doesn't sound like a Westerosi name.

The multiple references to snakes and demons in these translations do reek of dragons to me, and it doesn't seem farfetched to me that the Azor Ahai prophecy has something to do with the creation of dragons.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

[spoilers]

I think George is doing the word play on Knight / Night again, a Night of the Seven Kingdoms, and a Mystery Night, as these stories are telling us something about the Long Night.

 

In The Mystery Knight, John the Fiddler was really Daemon Blackfyre, his sigil is a black three headed dragon.  A black dragon that is a demon.   (in the Mutineer's Moon the Earth's moon was a giant black spaceship whose sigil was the Three-Headed Dragon Azi Dahak)   

Glendon Ball is the son of Fireball, who had red hair and a fiery temper (sun of fireball?) and whose sigil is a red and yellow flaming fireball on a field of night black.  He represents the Red Comet.

In the final joust which takes place in the dark, the Fireball brings down the Black Dragon with a wooden spear, immediately followed by the Dawn breaking and the sun rising.

In gaelic, glanad means "act of cleansing, purifying, clearing off" and glinn means "the firmament, the heavens" and ball means "limb" --so a cleansing fireball made of a limb of wood clears off the black dragon in the heavens.  This all takes places a Whitewalls, a castle that is a metaphor for a weirwood.  And the stuff about a dragon hatching refers to a fireball being launched. 

(one of the meanings of "to fiddle" is "to defraud, to run a scam" a guy with a fake name John who is a fake Targaryen?  hmmm)

 

Lml already beat me to this but in the Hedge Knight, Dunk is described as a tree, and a castle, and his sigil is a tree and a shooting star, and his horse is Thunder, and he jousts against Aerion Brightflame, (aerial = "in the sky").  In the fight a morningstar is called a shooting star and a "bloody morningstar"  A red dragon called Brightflame (in the sky) who has a bloody morningstar / shooting star--real strong Red Comet / Lightbringer imagery.  Dunk beats Aerion into submission. 

Dunk thinks "My lance is a part of my arm."  "It's my finger, a wooden finger."

But the real important part is that Dunk inadvertently kills a dragon in black armor who rides a giant black horse, Baelor Breakspear, (baol means "tub" in gaelic) who loses half of his head.  (mirrors the Mountain losing his head)  Interesting to note that John and Bael(or) are the stand-ins for the black planet--foreshadowing of Jon being the Night's King?

duncan = daingean = "castle" in gaelic and "a man of strong character"

 

The drawing on the title page of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms depicts Egg and a dragon in a tree, and dragon eggs underneath the tree.  And Dunk and Thunder and a lance are in front of the tree. 

 

And in the Sworn Sword, Wat's Wood burns and it is described as the "sun was rising in the west."

In Latin vates (pronounce "watis") means "prophet, seer, oracle, foreteller, mouthpiece of a deity " in old celtic *wātis

(But that Latin root is, in turn, distantly related to the Old English wōth, meaning "poetry," the Old High German wuot, meaning "madness," and the Old Irish vaith or fáith, meaning both "seer" and "poet.")

Wat's Wood = watis' wood = weirwood

"Wat's Wood. The greenery looked inviting from afar, and filled Dunk's head with thoughts of shady glens and chuckling brooks, but when they reached the trees they found them thin and scraggly, with drooping limbs. Some of the great oaks were shedding leaves, and half the pines had turned as brown as Ser Bennis, with rings of dead needles girdling their trunks. Worse and worse, thought Dunk. One spark, and this will all go up like tinder." . . .

"The sun was rising in the west. . .It was a long moment before Dunk realized what that meant. "Wat's Wood is afire," . . .

"Elsewhere the trunks of burned trees thrust like blackened spears into the sky. Other trees had fallen and lay athwart the west way with limbs charred and broken, dull red fires smoldering inside their hollow hearts."

 

A forest whose name means oracle/seer and is associated with human sacrifice, and with one spark the forest went "up like tinder" and it was a sun rising in the west, and burned trees thrust like blackened spears into the sky.  Hollow hearts had red fires inside them.  Weirwood comet ignition.  When Wat's Wood burns, the sun rises.  The Red Comet brings the Dawn.  The compulsion that is driving Mel to set fire to Weirwoods is a psychic suggestion implanted by the weirwoods themselves, trying to ignite a launch--it is part of their life cycle, and how they spread.  (see Niven's Stage Trees)  The flames awake fiery dancers.

 

 

While I am talking about Wat, I think I finally broke the code on the name "Greywater" that is the name of the hive minded fungus of The Men of Greywater Station, and the name of the Reeds floating castle Greywater Watch (two Wats).

In the OED, one of the definitons of Gree is "to be of the same mind" = hive mind

Gree (hivemind) + Wat (seer, prophet, diety) = Greywater  (the fungus is Grey and green)

Then there's Greenseers, Greendreams, Greeshka (hive minded red cave fungus that feeds on humanoids from A Song For Lya), Greel (telepathic cave dweller from Dark, Dark were the Tunnels, who could warg giant rats),

Greywater Watch a crannog (tree) floating castle that is a hivemind and a diety, and a seer), castles = weirwood.

 

So in the Men of Greywater Station, scientists have established a base on an alien planet called Greywater to study a hive-minded fungus that has taken over all life on the planet, then a troop transport crashes on the planet and the researchers are worried the fungus will take the troops over and breach Greywater Station:

Quote

If the survivors have screechers and heavy armament, they’ll be able to breach the station walls. You all know what that would mean. Our supply ship is due in a month. If the fungus gets into Greywater, then Earth won’t have to worry about the Fyndii anymore. The fungus would put a permanent stop to the war - it doesn’t like its hosts to fight each other.”

I missed this point the first 20 times listening to the story!  All of the Fyndii on all the Fyndii planets are infected with the Greywater fungus!  And they all share a hive-mind.  It really is an interstellar fungus.  They say that the spores reach all the way into the upper atmosphere and that is how the fungus hops from planet to planet carried by the solar wind.  If you flip the "d" in "fyndii" it spells "fyngii" (and feinnide means "soldier" in gaelic)--they really are children of the fungus.  If the fungus gets control of a working spaceship it will use it to spread more quickly and take over the human empire.

[Aemon Darkbrother]

On 10/14/2020 at 7:36 PM, Nathan Stark said:

I think LML over at the Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire podcast has the most convincing analysis of Azor-Ahai and Nissa Nissa. Basically he argues that "Nissa" is based on words in Scandinavian and American Indian languages. "Nissa" means "helpfull elf" in the Scandinavian translations, and "Grandmother Moon." Essentially the Azor-Ahai story is a moon myth.

LML argues that the Azor-Ahai story is essentially a story of horrific blood sacrifice, with Nissa Nissa being the victim and Azor-Ahai the villian, and his actions brought on the Long Night, instead of ending it. After all, consider the source of this story; Asshai. It is a Lovecraftian hellscape filled with shadowbinders, necromancers and other dark magicians. If these people call Azor-Ahai a hero, he's probably not someone we want to be around.

Davids my guy. Really opened up my perspective. That said I think he's letting his personal politics leech into his analyzation. I feel like theres this elephant in the room that he and a lot of the fandom are choosing to not acknowledge; that being that Daenerys is on the path of evil and that the amethyst empress might have been the evil one. What if Azor Ahai is the unsung hero like Jon Snow may become?

I mean look at Visenya with all her evil symbolism and her being the eldest of Aerion Targaryen's children his matrilineal heir, like the Amethyst empress was to the opal emperor....  

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Davids my guy. Really opened up my perspective. That said I think he's letting his personal politics leech into his analyzation. I feel like theres this elephant in the room that he and a lot of the fandom are choosing to not acknowledge; that being that Daenerys is on the path of evil and that the amethyst empress might have been the evil one. What if Azor Ahai is the unsung hero like Jon Snow may become?

I mean look at Visenya with all her evil symbolism and her being the eldest of Aerion Targaryen's children his matrilineal heir, like the Amethyst empress was to the opal emperor....  

I don't feel that there is much evidence that Danearys even is on the path to evil. There is too much evidence of her empathy and compassion for the powerless and vulnerable for her to read as wholely and irredeemably evil. That part of her ark was not convincing on the show, and I don't see it being any more believable on the page either. She does seem focused on vengeance rather than justice for the wrongs suffered by her freedmen, and her actions certainly have very ugly consequences, but I do not think they come out of an intent to do evil.

I also think we should take the story of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor at face value, in the same way we might take the myth of Adam and Eve and the Serpent at face value. That is to say, the people who first told that myth believed that there wasn't much ambiguity; the snake is evil and responsible for the fall of man. The way the people of Yi-Ti frame this story of the Amethyst Empress makes it hard to imagine that she was secretly the evil one. They seem to have decided the opposite.

Visenya reads more as an ambigous character, someone whose cold nature makes her difficult to love, and who could be misread as being evil. I don't buy that Visenya ever was as evil as she was made out to be. Which brings me back to Danearys. It is more likely that she remains a morally ambiguous character, like Visenya, or Tyrion, or Jaime. Making her outright evil just isn't in character for GRRM.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

24 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I also think we should take the story of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor at face value, . . . That is to say, the people who first told that myth believed that there wasn't much ambiguity;

By that same token you should believe what the ancient Asshai'i said about the order of events of the Long Night:

Quote

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Darkness falls over the world--then Red Comet makes the darkness flee--suddenly.  The legend doesn't mention nuclear winter after the Red Comet that lasted a generation.

Quote

It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return. In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.

 

Darkness first, and then a comet / flaming sword /  monkey tail fights darkness and averts disaster--doesn't create disaster.  As stated in the ancient annals of Asshai and Yi-Ti.  

Quote

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

 The maesters think that the accounts are all consistent on the order of events. 

Fyi, the forest that used to cover Europe was called the Hercynian Forest,  A forest arose with a blazing sword and put the darkness to rout?  All together they chased an Eldritch Shadow away. 

 

 

In George's Dying of the Light a human mining colony on an alien planet got invaded by the Hraangans during the Double War.  The planet was bombarded from the air, and then a ground invasion landed to kill the survivors.  The humans had to retreat deep underground to survive.  The fact of the aerial bombardment is well-preserved in their myths.  And the shock troops of the alien invasion were analogous to giants, dragons, and weirwoods and became demons in their myths--but all of the major events are remembered more or less correctly, just mythologized.

In this story George pulled the trick of gender-swapping their mythological hero who founded their underground civilization.  The Kavalar believed their founder was a man named Kay Iron-Smith, but it turned out it the real historical figure was a woman named Kay Smith, who was just a regular spaceship captain--this was important because the Kavalar were fiercely patriarchal and would not tolerate the heresy that their founder was a woman.

[Aemon Darkbrother]

15 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I don't feel that there is much evidence that Danearys even is on the path to evil. There is too much evidence of her empathy and compassion for the powerless and vulnerable for her to read as wholely and irredeemably evil. That part of her ark was not convincing on the show, and I don't see it being any more believable on the page either. She does seem focused on vengeance rather than justice for the wrongs suffered by her freedmen, and her actions certainly have very ugly consequences, but I do not think they come out of an intent to do evil.

I also think we should take the story of the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor at face value, in the same way we might take the myth of Adam and Eve and the Serpent at face value. That is to say, the people who first told that myth believed that there wasn't much ambiguity; the snake is evil and responsible for the fall of man. The way the people of Yi-Ti frame this story of the Amethyst Empress makes it hard to imagine that she was secretly the evil one. They seem to have decided the opposite.

Visenya reads more as an ambigous character, someone whose cold nature makes her difficult to love, and who could be misread as being evil. I don't buy that Visenya ever was as evil as she was made out to be. Which brings me back to Danearys. It is more likely that she remains a morally ambiguous character, like Visenya, or Tyrion, or Jaime. Making her outright evil just isn't in character for GRRM.

Standing back and letting  Viserys die was the first signal imo and Dany giving up on being a "tree planter" is a just another step towards becoming more like her Valyrian ancestors. She views herself as a liberator but one that "liberates" through blood and fire, as in death and destruction. 

If we assume AA and the Bloodstone Emperor are one and the same then we have two interpretations of his life here to work with. The nights watch are garbed in black and are  redeemed "villains" fighting for good. The men on the wall fight with black swords and they are "black shadows" like Jon snow himself. When I think of AA using the power of a black meteor to create black swords I think of who he'd be opposing....white swords? Whos his counterpart in both stories? Nissa Nissa/Amethyst Empress of course.

I'm with you on Visenya the person being misunderstood though i'd seriously wonder how opposed she'd be to a good old fashion Valyrian freehold type of conquest. Being his eldest child, how would Visenya go about conquering westeros had she been named Aerions heir. Btw what an ominous name for a lord of dragonstone? Are we sure that the conquest was Aegon's idea in the first place? Aegon's conquest resulted in the "kings peace" did the father share the same values as the son? I see a mad dragon king and  I see a daughter succeeding him, maybe starting off hoping to be better only prove herself to be her fathers daughter. I also see her warring with her bastard brother/lover and I see those two being the ancestors of the current dragonlords. Visenya plays the role of the night queen  and Dany is on the path to playing that role as well. 

[broken one]

On 10/13/2020 at 8:49 PM, By Odin's Beard said:

So, I have known for a while that the name "azor ahai" comes from the Hindi asura = demon, and ahi = snake,

 

How do you know that, has GRRM said it?

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

22 minutes ago, broken one said:

How do you know that, has GRRM said it?

Did you read the OP?  Ahi / azi / ahai literally means "dragon" in several languages, and a 3 headed dragon from persian mythology is called Azi /azhi.   The leader of the demons (asura) in Hindu mythology was a dragon (ahi) named Vritra

The Red Dragon that lived under the castle Hayholt in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn was called Shurakai (asura + ahi) I think this is where George got Azor Ahai from. 

[broken one]

Yes I did. So you think, not know.

Do not forget about nisan/nisannu - the Hebrew month/ month in the ancient Semitic East. In nisan Jesus was crucified and nisan is the month of Pesach. Spring, freedom, "first fruits". So it may turn out it has more positive conotations than the demonic midnight iron bride.

Seriously, looking in various vocabularies one may find words to prop up anything one wants.

btw Azor used to be very popular name for a male dog in Poland and Ive never known where the hell it was from. "Come over here, Demon!" This is cool.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

39 minutes ago, broken one said:

Yes I did. So you think, not know.

What is your standard for when you "know" something?   How about this:  denarius is a kind of silver coin, and Argyria is silver poisoning that turns your eyes purple.  From that I would say that I know that is where the name "daenerys targaryen" came from.  In Hindi dahna means "to burn" and daniya means "to be given (as a gift)"

My standards of proof are actually pretty high, and in my opinion, the azor ahi name origin meets the threshold.  You are free to think otherwise.