What if Robert had not married Cersei

[Lee-Sensei]

On 4/21/2021 at 10:57 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

@Lee-Sensei it was good to have this conversation, but since you're trying to protect Robert from obvious things (claiming that Bella isn't his, and not educating Joffrey because he wasn't his son, like he knew it), I find my words entirely worthless. Grow up and realise what is relevant, what isn't, what is true and what isn't, because I only see a Robert fangirl trying to protect the statue of his favourite. I mean, it's okay to like bad characters, I do too. 

Also, I think my replies are fulfilling enough so that I won't feel the obligation of writing another one. Goodbye.

You’re Strawmanning.

1) Instead of dismissing my arguments about Bella, why don’t you make your argument for her being Roberts daughter. We never got her eye color and she’s not listed in the appendix as his child. Are you saying with 100% certainty that she’s Roberts kid and if you are, how do you know that? Why was she the only named bastard of Robert that was left out? Even Barra was listed and a Cersei killed her.

2) The job of educating a noble child is primarily handled by maesters and master-at-arms. Based on what Robert knew, he didn’t do a great job of raising his wife’s son, but it wasn’t Roberts choice to have a bastard born of incest. What I said was that it’s clear that Robert was troubled by Joffreys behaviour, he did try to step in and discipline him (physically, which was normal in the Middle Ages) and he had another son that he got to spend time with that turned out just fine.

3) Fanboy. And no. It’s not that I’m a fanboy. It’s that you struggled with reading comprehension. As I said in this thread, the version in the TV Show has a much bigger role in why their marriage failed. The books are different. Robert is a very flawed character as I’ve stated before. He’s not Cersei. They aren’t equally at fault in how their marriage turned out, even though both contributed to its toxicity. There’s very little evidence that Robert couldn’t have had an okay marriage to a normal woman, since he has a much stronger moral compass than Cersei, lacks her innate cruelty and was able to maintain good relationships with other people. Cersei on the other hand is uniquely toxic. Her relationships with almost everyone turn to shit. Her brothers, her father, her uncle, her sons, her husband, her best friend, Pycelle... all of it went to shit from what I remember. Can you name a single relationship that Cersei was able to maintain that was functional?

And for the record, Cersei is one of my favourite characters. I just understand that she’s a really bad person even by the standards of the setting.

[Wall Flower]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You’re Strawmanning.

1) Instead of dismissing my arguments about Bella, why don’t you make your argument for her being Roberts daughter. We never got her eye color and she’s not listed in the appendix as his child. Are you saying with 100% certainty that she’s Roberts kid and if you are, how do you know that? Why was she the only named bastard of Robert that was left out? Even Barra was listed and a Cersei killed her.

2) The job of educating a noble child is primarily handled by maesters and master-at-arms. Based on what Robert knew, he didn’t do a great job of raising his wife’s son, but it wasn’t Roberts choice to have a bastard born of incest. What I said was that it’s clear that Robert was troubled by Joffreys behaviour, he did try to step in and discipline him (physically, which was normal in the Middle Ages) and he had another son that he got to spend time with that turned out just fine.

3) Fanboy. And no. It’s not that I’m a fanboy. It’s that you struggled with reading comprehension. As I said in this thread, the version in the TV Show has a much bigger role in why their marriage failed. The books are different. Robert is a very flawed character as I’ve stated before. He’s not Cersei. They aren’t equally at fault in how their marriage turned out, even though both contributed to its toxicity. There’s very little evidence that Robert couldn’t have had an okay marriage to a normal woman, since he has a much stronger moral compass than Cersei, lacks her innate cruelty and was able to maintain good relationships with other people. Cersei on the other hand is uniquely toxic. Her relationships with almost everyone turn to shit. Her brothers, her father, her uncle, her sons, her husband, her best friend, Pycelle... all of it went to shit from what I remember. Can you name a single relationship that Cersei was able to maintain that was functional?

And for the record, Cersei is one of my favourite characters. I just understand that she’s a really bad person even by the standards of the setting.

I honestly don't see the point of the encounter with Bella unless she is one of Robert's bastards. Arya can see that Bella has the same type and colour as Robert but amusingly dismisses this as meaningless because Gendry had the same hair too. It's funny because Arya doesn't make the obvious deduction here that the reader can, because the reader already knows Gendry's paternity.

There's also the narrow miss of Gendry having sex with his sister, which doesn't happen because he's a different man to his father. Bastards or no, nothing in Robert's character suggests that he would have been celibate for years after his betrothal to Lyanna, including during a year of war. If that's what you're suggesting, then there's a bridge over the Twins I'd like to sell you.  I don't know why Bella doesn't appear in the appendix, perhaps it's just that there is no confirmation of her paternity.

It's a bit disingenuous of you to refer to Joffrey as 'Cersei's son'. As far as Robert knows, Joffrey is his legitimate son and heir and as much his responsibility as Cersei's. Hitting Joffrey so hard that Stannis thought he was dead is uncontrolled anger not discipline. There's no indication that there was any follow up to this or any attempt to train or mould Joffrey as we see Ned doing with his sons.

I do think that Robert is a better person than Cersei, who is clearly a narcissist. That doesn't absolve Robert of his actions in the marriage - spousal abuse, marital rape and industrial strength infidelity. Only Robert could make himself a better man, husband and king, not some imaginary wife who wasn't Cersei. He did love Ned and Jon Arryn. Sometimes both could bring out the better side of Robert's nature but neither succeeded long-term in changing his character or personality. If anything, a big part of Robert's problem was that he looked to other people to do that hard work for him.

I think Ned nailed Robert's relationships with women when he thought about how Robert would swear undying love in the morning and forget their name by evening. Nothing suggests he ever had a serious long-term relationship with a woman other than the enforced one with his wife and the idealised one with a dead girl. Seems like he enjoyed the pursuit and using his undoubted charms but lost interest pretty quickly. Another marriage might not have been as toxic as Robert/Cersei but there would still have been frustrations, storms, disappointments and resentments to deal with and no indication that Robert would deal well with them.

[Daeron the Daring]

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Instead of dismissing my arguments about Bella, why don’t you make your argument for her being Roberts daughter. We never got her eye color and she’s not listed in the appendix as his child. Are you saying with 100% certainty that she’s Roberts kid and if you are, how do you know that? Why was she the only named bastard of Robert that was left out? Even Barra was listed and a Cersei killed her.

-Robert is prophecied to have many-many children (16, I think) which already gives a background to it.

-We are told (and this is an actual fact) that Robert came out from a brothel named Peach during the Battle of the Bells.

-Bella grow up in the Peach.

-Bella's name refers to the Battle of the Bells.

-Bella's mother is rumoured to had been the favourite of Robert during the days  he spent hiding there. Not that it's an accomplishment, since the same account claims that he fucked everyone in there.

-Bella has black hair, and altough we don't know the color of her eyes, this still is a strong hint.

-She could've been claiming to be Robert's bastard while being blonde or auburn or whatever you can imagine, but she has black hair!

-There is a person called Leslyn who lives until this day and tells this to us.

-Nor Bella's mother, nor Leslyn, nor Bella herself does benefit from her being a bastard of Robert. It's not like someone is loudly advertising that he's giving money to Robert's bastards, so these would have a reason to lie. Especially not since Robert is widely known for whoring all around the realm.

-Nor the twins from Casterly Rock are listed among Robert's bastards. Also, the named bastards are all aknowledged by some authority, while Bella isn't. This is not something someone realises for the first time reading the novels, probably most people didn't even realise Gendry almost ended up banging his sister.

-The entire scene from Arya's point of view makes it obvious, once you know what to look for.

Gosh, claiming that Bella isn't Robert's is even worse than claiming RLJ isn't true. Go on, but you'll remain lonely with your ridiculous opinion.

Also, it's clear you're trying to protect Robert from his true self, but sayin that Bella isn't his doesn't make him any better, since he was fucking whores day n nite at Stoney Sept anyway.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) The job of educating a noble child is primarily handled by maesters and master-at-arms. Based on what Robert knew, he didn’t do a great job of raising his wife’s son, but it wasn’t Roberts choice to have a bastard born of incest. What I said was that it’s clear that Robert was troubled by Joffreys behaviour, he did try to step in and discipline him (physically, which was normal in the Middle Ages) and he had another son that he got to spend time with that turned out just fine.

Teaching your goddamn son and heir how to rule is your duty. I wasn't saying Robert should teach him how to read or write, or how to fight, omg.

Stop refering to Joffrey like Robert knew he wasn't his. He hit him thinking he is his son, he fucked up his education thinking he is his son, and he ignored him believing he is his son. And no, he didn't even try to get rid of Joffrey bad behaviour. He fucking ignored it. That's why the boy was trying to make Robert proud of him. Killing the pregnant cat was such a case, just as sending an assassin after Bran. He was trying to achieve his father's appreciation his entire lifetime.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

As I said in this thread, the version in the TV Show has a much bigger role in why their marriage failed.

 Stop talking about GoT here. The last time I saw S1 it was 2016, I think. Not sure why you bring it up for the second time, when we're not talking about it, and noone claims it to be canon to the books.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The books are different. 

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Ignore this, I can't get rid of it.

I know. Try reading them.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Fanboy. And no. It’s not that I’m a fanboy.

It's more clear to me now why you treat constant raping as 'deep flaws'. It's more than enough to call someone a monster, but go on, you're already on the level of being laughable.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It’s that you struggled with reading comprehension

To have a normal debate you should take your fan-tinted glasses off, first of all. And I don't know what part of your argument you feel is being ununderstood, but not telling it makes answering harder.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert is a very flawed character as I’ve stated before.

Not sure who are you trying to convince at this point.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He’s not Cersei

I never said he is, so please don't write it down for the 4th time.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

They aren’t equally at fault in how their marriage turned out, even though both contributed to its toxicity.

Yes, they are. And the only reason you're bringing up is that Cersei is worse than him. Sorry to say it again, but this is not a logical argument. It is not relevant that Robert is a better person by leagues. That's not what we debate. We are talking about who fucked up their marriage, and you made no actual argument but that Cersei is a bad person, where on the same page I provided you a lot of facts that shows how responsible Robert really is.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

There’s very little evidence that Robert couldn’t have had an okay marriage to a normal woman, since he has a much stronger moral compass than Cersei, lacks her innate cruelty and was able to maintain good relationships with other people.

1) Being a good person (which Robert wasn't) doesn't make your marriage good, nor being a bad one makes it worse obligatorily.

2) His moral compass allowed him to step over dead Rhaenys and Aegon without a look, raping his wife and blaming the alcohol for it, bankrupting the crown, hitting the child he believed to be his son so hard people tought the boy is dead, fucking a thousand whores, giving a damn about the death of his twinchildren at Casterly Rock, arranging the death of a pregnant girl, and we still stand here questioning if he was a monster or not. This is why I don't expect anything from you at this point.

3) To call Robert's relationship with Jon Arryn 'good', an entire kingdom had to go into a debt men haven't seen yet. To call Robert's relationship with Ned Stark 'good', Ned had to do the same Jon Arryn did. Both did it out of respect to the Robert they once knew, the one that had good in himself too.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei on the other hand is uniquely toxic. Her relationships with almost everyone turn to shit. Her brothers, her father, her uncle, her sons, her husband, her best friend, Pycelle... all of it went to shit from what I remember. Can you name a single relationship that Cersei was able to maintain that was functional?

This is entirely irrelevant in the light of what made Robert's relationship something you dare call good. And again just something both of us knows and changes nothing.

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

And for the record, Cersei is one of my favourite characters. I just understand that she’s a really bad person even by the standards of the setting

I wonder why you can't apply the same standards on Robert. He would still be a better person than Cersei, tho.

You see why I don't wanna reply? Because we're running around in a circle.

[nyser1]

It serves the plot that there is only one young available female from a major highborn family who just so happens to be the daughter of the wealthiest (and arguably most powerful individual) in the realm. Just how the book was meant to be.

With that said, with the universe we are in, shy of possibly an elder daughter of Leyton Hightower (which had a Targaryen precedent), I don't think there are any great fits. We do not know of any eligible Stormlord daughters (which would not have economic or political clout anyways), and I doubt he would marry a Florent or Frey.

[Angel Eyes]

21 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I think Ned nailed Robert's relationships with women when he thought about how Robert would swear undying love in the morning and forget their name by evening. Nothing suggests he ever had a serious long-term relationship with a woman other than the enforced one with his wife and the idealised one with a dead girl. Seems like he enjoyed the pursuit and using his undoubted charms but lost interest pretty quickly. Another marriage might not have been as toxic as Robert/Cersei but there would still have been frustrations, storms, disappointments and resentments to deal with and no indication that Robert would deal well with them.

And yet Ned thought that Robert was a good match for Lyanna. Lyanna knew of Mya and was unwilling to go through with the match because Robert was a philanderer, a supposition that proved to be well-founded. With Lyanna's wilful personality combined with Robert's rash temper and passion for whoring, she could very well have turned out like Cersei.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 4/23/2021 at 6:47 PM, Wall Flower said:

I honestly don't see the point of the encounter with Bella unless she is one of Robert's bastards. Arya can see that Bella has the same type and colour as Robert but amusingly dismisses this as meaningless because Gendry had the same hair too. It's funny because Arya doesn't make the obvious deduction here that the reader can, because the reader already knows Gendry's paternity.

Yes. The readers do know Gendrys paternity. Bella is questionable. Why do you think she was the only one left out of the appendix?

 

On 4/23/2021 at 6:47 PM, Wall Flower said:

There's also the narrow miss of Gendry having sex with his sister, which doesn't happen because he's a different man to his father. Bastards or no, nothing in Robert's character suggests that he would have been celibate for years after his betrothal to Lyanna, including during a year of war. If that's what you're suggesting, then there's a bridge over the Twins I'd like to sell you.  I don't know why Bella doesn't appear in the appendix, perhaps it's just that there is no confirmation of her paternity.

That sounds kind of like a weak excuse. I never said that he was celibate. I said that her paternity is questionable and it is.

 

On 4/23/2021 at 6:47 PM, Wall Flower said:

It's a bit disingenuous of you to refer to Joffrey as 'Cersei's son'. As far as Robert knows, Joffrey is his legitimate son and heir and as much his responsibility as Cersei's. Hitting Joffrey so hard that Stannis thought he was dead is uncontrolled anger not discipline. There's no indication that there was any follow up to this or any attempt to train or mould Joffrey as we see Ned doing with his sons.

It really isn’t. In the world of ASOIAF, inbreeding often leads to madness and that was taken completely out of his hands. The primary responsibility for Joffreys madness goes to Cersei and Jaime second. Roberts a distant third.

There actually is. Cersei tells Tywin that Robert wanted to beat him for his behaviour and would say things even after the cat incident. Joffreys madness is probably partially, because he’s inbred and partially because his mother spoiled him. His actual father is Jaime and Jaime did nothing for him. Robert wasn’t his real father, but he was the only one to provide a smidge of discipline and unlike Cersei, he discouraged his bad behaviour. Again, I’m not saying that he was a great parent to Joffrey. He wasn’t. I’m saying that he played no role in creating the kid and the was the only one to provide him with even a tiny bit of discipline.

 

On 4/23/2021 at 6:47 PM, Wall Flower said:

I do think that Robert is a better person than Cersei, who is clearly a narcissist. That doesn't absolve Robert of his actions in the marriage - spousal abuse, marital rape and industrial strength infidelity. Only Robert could make himself a better man, husband and king, not some imaginary wife who wasn't Cersei. He did love Ned and Jon Arryn. Sometimes both could bring out the better side of Robert's nature but neither succeeded long-term in changing his character or personality. If anything, a big part of Robert's problem was that he looked to other people to do that hard work for him.

Is there any evidence of Robert hitting any woman, but Cersei? That doesn’t make it right and unlike Cersei, he shows remorse for it. But if you’re going to assume that he’d act the same way married to any other woman, you should provide at least one other example.

 

On 4/23/2021 at 6:47 PM, Wall Flower said:

I think Ned nailed Robert's relationships with women when he thought about how Robert would swear undying love in the morning and forget their name by evening. Nothing suggests he ever had a serious long-term relationship with a woman other than the enforced one with his wife and the idealised one with a dead girl. Seems like he enjoyed the pursuit and using his undoubted charms but lost interest pretty quickly. Another marriage might not have been as toxic as Robert/Cersei but there would still have been frustrations, storms, disappointments and resentments to deal with and no indication that Robert would deal well with them.

There’s no evidence that he’d deal poorly with them either. Not having a long term relationship with his one night stands doesn’t really prove anything. Most of the young men in ASOIAF that don’t sleep around act the same way. I don’t see any reason why he couldn’t have a decent marriage to a less toxic woman.

In the early years of their marriage, Robert was forever imploring her to hunt with him, but Cersei had always begged off. His hunting trips allowed her time with Jaime. Golden days and silver nights. It was a dangerous dance that they had danced, to be sure. Eyes and ears were everywhere within the Red Keep, and one could never be certain when Robert would return. Somehow the peril had only served to make their times together that much more thrilling.

[Lee-Sensei]

20 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

-Robert is prophecied to have many-many children (16, I think) which already gives a background to it.

-We are told (and this is an actual fact) that Robert came out from a brothel named Peach during the Battle of the Bells.

-Bella grow up in the Peach.

-Bella's name refers to the Battle of the Bells.

-Bella's mother is rumoured to had been the favourite of Robert during the days  he spent hiding there. Not that it's an accomplishment, since the same account claims that he fucked everyone in there.

-Bella has black hair, and altough we don't know the color of her eyes, this still is a strong hint.

-She could've been claiming to be Robert's bastard while being blonde or auburn or whatever you can imagine, but she has black hair!

-There is a person called Leslyn who lives until this day and tells this to us.

-Nor Bella's mother, nor Leslyn, nor Bella herself does benefit from her being a bastard of Robert. It's not like someone is loudly advertising that he's giving money to Robert's bastards, so these would have a reason to lie. Especially not since Robert is widely known for whoring all around the realm.

-Nor the twins from Casterly Rock are listed among Robert's bastards. Also, the named bastards are all aknowledged by some authority, while Bella isn't. This is not something someone realises for the first time reading the novels, probably most people didn't even realise Gendry almost ended up banging his sister.

-The entire scene from Arya's point of view makes it obvious, once you know what to look for.

Gosh, claiming that Bella isn't Robert's is even worse than claiming RLJ isn't true. Go on, but you'll remain lonely with your ridiculous opinion.

Almost all of that is irrelevant. It’s an in-joke, because Gendry is Roberts son. And yes. There’s absolutely a benefit in claiming to be the bastard of a highborn person.

The rumoured Casterly Rock Tywins have no names. Bella does and she’s the only one that’s not listed as his. Mya, Gendry, Edric and Barra are all listed as a Roberts kids. She’s the only one.

 

20 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Also, it's clear you're trying to protect Robert from his true self, but sayin that Bella isn't his doesn't make him any better, since he was fucking whores day n nite at Stoney Sept anyway.

We don’t know that at all. What we’re told is that he was moving from town to town while wounded. Just one step ahead of Jon Conningtons soldiers. I’m not trying to protect him from anything. I’m dealing with the books as they are. Robert would like sleep around no matter who he was married to. My contention is that there’s no evidence that he slept with the entire brothel while wounded and on the move and that there’s no real proof that Bella is his kid. Also, sleeping around isn’t a deal breaker in his setting.

[Lee-Sensei]

21 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Teaching your goddamn son and heir how to rule is your duty. I wasn't saying Robert should teach him how to read or write, or how to fight, omg.

Stop refering to Joffrey like Robert knew he wasn't his. He hit him thinking he is his son, he fucked up his education thinking he is his son, and he ignored him believing he is his son. And no, he didn't even try to get rid of Joffrey bad behaviour. He fucking ignored it. That's why the boy was trying to make Robert proud of him. Killing the pregnant cat was such a case, just as sending an assassin after Bran. He was trying to achieve his father's appreciation his entire lifetime.

After the Red Wedding Joffrey has an outburst and Tywin sends him to his room. He then goes on to have a conversation with Joffreys mother and Tyrion about the boy needing a lesson and discipline. Cersei says that Robert hit him over “some mischief with a cat”. That mischief is cutting open a pregnant cat and digging out the cats babies. She also says that Robert wanted to beat him for his bad behaviour more, but she threatened to murder him in his sleep if he did. Even then, she says that Robert would say things to Joffrey after the cat incident and a Tywin says that things needed to be said. Given that the context was disciplining Joffrey and straightening him out, what sort of things do you think Robert was saying to him? Was he encouraging or discouraging Joffreys bad behaviour?

 

Quote

 Stop talking about GoT here. The last time I saw S1 it was 2016, I think. Not sure why you bring it up for the second time, when we're not talking about it, and noone claims it to be canon to the books.

I’m bringing it up, because you don’t seem to have read the books. Robert being equally responsible for the toxicity of their relationship doesn’t have much grounding in the source material.

 

Quote

I know. Try reading them.

It's more clear to me now why you treat constant raping as 'deep flaws'. It's more than enough to call someone a monster, but go on, you're already on the level of being laughable.

To have a normal debate you should take your fan-tinted glasses off, first of all. And I don't know what part of your argument you feel is being ununderstood, but not telling it makes answering harder.

Not sure who are you trying to convince at this point.

I never said he is, so please don't write it down for the 4th time.

Yes. You have. That’s the implication of your posts.

 

Quote

Yes, they are. And the only reason you're bringing up is that Cersei is worse than him. Sorry to say it again, but this is not a logical argument. It is not relevant that Robert is a better person by leagues. That's not what we debate. We are talking about who fucked up their marriage, and you made no actual argument but that Cersei is a bad person, where on the same page I provided you a lot of facts that shows how responsible Robert really is.

That’s absolutely relevant. You’ve made the argument that married to other people they would have had the same outcomes. Yet a Roberts the only one that showed remorse for his bad deeds, he’s the only one that was able to form relationships that weren’t toxic and he did put in a smidge of effort towards having a better relationship with his wife. Cersei shot him down. The burden of proof is on you that Robert would have turned out exactly the same if he was married to a normal woman.

And no. You’ve provided absolutely nothing.

 

Quote

1) Being a good person (which Robert wasn't) doesn't make your marriage good, nor being a bad one makes it worse obligatorily.

2) His moral compass allowed him to step over dead Rhaenys and Aegon without a look, raping his wife and blaming the alcohol for it, bankrupting the crown, hitting the child he believed to be his son so hard people tought the boy is dead, fucking a thousand whores, giving a damn about the death of his twinchildren at Casterly Rock, arranging the death of a pregnant girl, and we still stand here questioning if he was a monster or not. This is why I don't expect anything from you at this point.

A lot of BS here. Robert had no role in the deaths of Rhaegars kids. He didn’t kill them himself and he never gave the order. Being bad with money doesn’t make you a bad person. Tywins father seemed decent and he was terrible with money. He hit his wife’s son for torturing a pregnant cat. At Winterfell, Theon was jumping down the stairs and accidentally bumped into Old Nan. He was beaten for it. Corporal punishment is normal in Westeros. Being promiscuous isn’t really a moral failure either. We don’t know if he had twins at Casterly a Rock and if he did, we don’t know that he didn’t care about their deaths. You’re making a lot of assumptions here.

 

Quote

3) To call Robert's relationship with Jon Arryn 'good', an entire kingdom had to go into a debt men haven't seen yet. To call Robert's relationship with Ned Stark 'good', Ned had to do the same Jon Arryn did. Both did it out of respect to the Robert they once knew, the one that had good in himself too.

Agreed. What a monster!

“The king did come, and he sat beside the bed for hours, talking and joking of times long past in hopes of raising Lord Jon’s spirits. His love was fierce to see.”

“The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords.”

Tyrion smiled. “They’d have pleased him more if they’d presented him with their daughters.”

“No doubt. The only blade he ever used was the hunting knife he had from Jon Arryn, when he was a boy.” Lord Tywin waved a hand, dismissing King Robert and all his knives.

He obviously didn’t care about Jon Arryn!

Quote

This is entirely irrelevant in the light of what made Robert's relationship something you dare call good. And again just something both of us knows and changes nothing.

I wonder why you can't apply the same standards on Robert. He would still be a better person than Cersei, tho.

You see why I don't wanna reply? Because we're running around in a circle.

I don’t apply the same standards, because they aren’t really comparable. I like Gregor a Clegane as a character. I like Tywin as a character. But I wouldn’t compare them morally to more nuanced characters.

Had Robert married someone else, he probably would have slept around and drank. He’d always done that. I imagine that it would happen less though. Cersei refused to have sex with him and it’s implied in that scene where Cersei tries to get him to maim Arya, that part of the reason he drinks so much is so he doesn’t have to deal with her. Jaime says that Cersei shrieked into the middle of the night about wanting to cut off Cersei’s hand and Robert called her mad and cruel for it. He then drank until he passed out. Do you really think that Cersei trying to badger him into cutting off his friends, daughters hand had no part to play in that?

Aside from the infidelity and drunkenness, I see no reason why his relationships would be toxic. He tried spending time with Cersei and she constantly turned him down. He gave her encouraging words at the presentation. He did hit her occasionally when he lost his cool, but showed remorse after. It’s unlikely that he’d hit any other woman he married (unless you have evidence of him being a serial woman beater from the text). When he went to Storms End he’d eat, play and sometimes train with Edric. He did try to talk to Joffrey about his behaviour and wanted to implement corporal punishment. This isn’t just about him liking to beat children. When it came to Arya and Cersei wanted to punish her, he said that “children fight and it’s over”. In his conversation with Ned, he tells him about his disappointment in Joffrey and says that it wouldn’t trouble him if Joffrey was wild. He’s obviously bothered by Joffreys innate cruelty.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

After the Red Wedding Joffrey has an outburst and Tywin sends him to his room. He then goes on to have a conversation with Joffreys mother and Tyrion about the boy needing a lesson and discipline. Cersei says that Robert hit him over “some mischief with a cat”. That mischief is cutting open a pregnant cat and digging out the cats babies. She also says that Robert wanted to beat him for his bad behaviour more, but she threatened to murder him in his sleep if he did. Even then, she says that Robert would say things to Joffrey after the cat incident and a Tywin says that things needed to be said. Given that the context was disciplining Joffrey and straightening him out, what sort of things do you think Robert was saying to him? Was he encouraging or discouraging Joffreys bad behaviour?

I've got no idea what Robert did to Joffrey to 'cure' him, but I know that he would've beaten him to death (likely) if he was to be the only factor in that situation. He almost killed the boy he tought to be his son, and was willing to continue the same process. Great achievement, again.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

I’m bringing it up, because you don’t seem to have read the books. Robert being equally responsible for the toxicity of their relationship doesn’t have much grounding in the source material.

Of course there isn't when you simply dismiss the source material and call someone who daily raped his wife 'a man with deep flaws'. Even if it's not criminal in Westeros, it is a shunned thing by somone who actually has a working moral compass, and I wonder what Ned would've said if he would've came to the realisation to what kind of a man he called his friend (given the difference between the two in a moral context).

All it would take is to leave back your personal preferences in an argument and interpret the text as it is.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

Yes. You have. That’s the implication of your posts.

How could it be when I clearly state and say that Cersei is a way worse person than him. And on top of that only I claim that it doesn't change the fact that Robert had a hand in fucking up the royal marriage as much ad she had, because being a better person does not mean you were better than a worse person in a single matter. This arguments of yours entirely lacks the thing one would call mathematical logic. x=y doesn't mean x=z too. Being a better person doesn't mean you were the better man in a given situation.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

That’s absolutely relevant. You’ve made the argument that married to other people they would have had the same outcomes.

Quote me where was I saying it. You can't, because I never said that. I said both would've had a better relationship with someone else, which you said isn't the case, because Cersei would be a jerk to anyone no matter if she is raped by that person daily or not and that Robert would've had a GOOD marriage with Edric's mother, of who we know nothing but that she was willing to fuck wih him.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

Yet a Roberts the only one that showed remorse for his bad deeds,

Like when he blamed the drink for the constant rape? Oh, yea, when he hit Cersei. I guess he showed his remorse in the inside when he still wanted to beat Joffrey after he almost killed him. Or maybe that's how he shows remorse. Beating the child you think is yours to death.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

he’s the only one that was able to form relationships that weren’t toxic and he did put in a smidge of effort towards having a better relationship with his wife. Cersei shot him down.

What do you expect from a woman who was raped A HUNDRED TIMES by that man? This only shows how he realised his marriage was fucked up, and if he would've felt like he isn't to balme for that, he would've done nothing.

Also, how is it proof that he and Jon had a good relationship that he was carrying a dagger given to him by Jon? It's like saying that he and Lyanna were in a good relationship because he still 'loves' him. That's not the case, and that's not a proof either.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

The burden of proof is on you that Robert would have turned out exactly the same if he was married to a normal woman.

For a good marriage (you were talking before) you need a normal woman and a normal man too. It is expectable from you to call him 'normal' (I wouldn't be surprised), but that doesn't change anything. Robert was raping Cersei while drunk without having a bad relationship playing a factor in it. That means that a frunk Robert would've raped anyone, be it his beloved wife you're talking about or Cersei. I wonder how much love a woman can feel to the man that constantly rapes her. I don't know exactly, but I guess I can still understand it better than you, since you don't even take into account such 'pity' things since they matter not. At this point you either protect the act of raping or your favourite. I'd like to know which (and I mean variation A or B. If you say none of those, I already dare call you a liar in that scenario), and if you don't intend to answer to this question, neither you should bother with another reply. 

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

And no. You’ve provided absolutely nothing.

At this point this statement is pathetic instead of laughable.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

lot of BS here. Robert had no role in the deaths of Rhaegars kids.

I guess you really have a serious problem with interpretation, because I never said that. I said he didn't even care how the two children were threated. Not when he himself saw dead Rhaenys and Aegon with his eyes, and also not when Ned was outraged by what Tywin did to them and was talking to Robert.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

Being bad with money doesn’t make you a bad person.

He wasn't bad with money. We don't know if he was good with money or not. All we know is that he did not care. He gave a fuck about Jon's efforts and warnings so that he could fuck, feast and drink all the time.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

He hit his wife’s son for torturing a pregnant cat. At Winterfell, Theon was jumping down the stairs and accidentally bumped into Old Nan.

I bet Theon's life wasn't considered being in danger, like Joffrey's was. And the boy he hit wasn't his wife's son. He was a person he considered his own, and acted as such, so don't refer to Joffrey again that way.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

Being promiscuous isn’t really a moral failure either.

Yes, it is. The fact that promiscuous people are a bigger factor in Westeros doesn't mean it is approved by honorable people. For example, a men like Ned Stark, Garlan Tyrell or Lord Rowan would see raping your own wife as a horrible thing, whether it is approved or not by the Westerosi society. So yes, it is, in the eyes of a moral men, which sadly isn't the majority in Westeros.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

We don’t know if he had twins at Casterly a Rock and if he did, we don’t know that he didn’t care about their deaths. You’re making a lot of assumptions here.

And here we are, AGAIN. Going as far as claiming there might have been no twins at Casterly Rock. There were, don't question that. And the fact that their death ended up in no consequence supports that he didn't care after all. (Which is also supported by his own self, given that neither the death of Rhaegar's children affected him).

 

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

The king did come, and he sat beside the bed for hours, talking and joking of times long past in hopes of raising Lord Jon’s spirits. His love was fierce to see.”

“The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three. If you have need of a dagger, take one from the armory. Robert left a hundred when he died. Gerion gave him a gilded dagger with an ivory grip and a sapphire pommel for a wedding gift, and half the envoys who came to court tried to curry favor by presenting His Grace with jewel-encrusted knives and silver inlay swords.”

Tyrion smiled. “They’d have pleased him more if they’d presented him with their daughters.”

“No doubt. The only blade he ever used was the hunting knife he had from Jon Arryn, when he was a boy.” Lord Tywin waved a hand, dismissing King Robert and all his knives.

He obviously didn’t care about Jon Arryn!

I didn't say he didn't care about Jon Arryn. If I did, quote me and prove it (but I didn't ). I said that he gave a literal damn about the efforts Jon put into his work so that he could fuck and drink like hog. That doesn't mean he didn't love him, but I wonder what Jon Arryn felt when he had to clean Robert's shit for the thousandth time and saw the realm bankrupting.

 

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

I don’t apply the same standards, because they aren’t really comparable. I like Gregor a Clegane as a character. I like Tywin as a character. But I wouldn’t compare them morally to more nuanced characters

What the fuck. So by this logic, can I say that Tywin is a good character, because he is far better than other persons, and then both Tywin and Ned are good characters? Do you realise what the actual bullshit you're talking about? 

There is only 1 standard, and that applies on everyone. That's how you decide if someone is good or bad. Else Tywin ends up good as well as Ned, and you can't compare the two, since they're "uncomparable". That's not how things work. You can and you have to compare the good ones to bad ones, and the bad ones to the even worse ones. That's what makes the worse worse than bad, else Cersei and Robert are bot bad and equally bad, which they aren't. That's a logical mistake by your side, sir.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

Had Robert married someone else, he probably would have slept around and drank. He’d always done that. I imagine that it would happen less though. Cersei refused to have sex with him and it’s implied in that scene where Cersei tries to get him to maim Arya, that part of the reason he drinks so much is so he doesn’t have to deal with her. Jaime says that Cersei shrieked into the middle of the night about wanting to cut off Cersei’s hand and Robert called her mad and cruel for it. He then drank until he passed out. Do you really think that Cersei trying to badger him into cutting off his friends, daughters hand had no part to play in that?

How wanting to cut off Arya's hand played a part in ruining the royal marriage which happened 10+ years ago? Again you left logic behind for the reasons I can only guess yet, but I have a good one.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

Aside from the infidelity and drunkenness, I see no reason why his relationships would be toxic.

That proves something.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

He tried spending time with Cersei and she constantly turned him down.

After hundreds of occasions when he raped her. Isn't it what you expect?

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

He did hit her occasionally when he lost his cool, but showed remorse after.

Already heard that. But where was his remorse during other situations? Answer already, for God's sake, don't ignore this question for the 5th time.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

It’s unlikely that he’d hit any other woman he married (unless you have evidence of him being a serial woman beater from the text).

Well, I have undeniable proff that he was a rapist and had issues with controlling anger. Isn't that enough? He always tried to solve his problems with beating a threatening others, even when it came to his best friend 

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

When he went to Storms End he’d eat, play and sometimes train with Edric.

He never went to the Vale to Mya, tho. I wonder if he saw his bastard son because he often paid a visit to his home or because of his bastard son was there too. And you can see how Edric wasn't aware of who Robert actually was (in a Davos chapter when Edric talks about his father).

On 4/25/2021 at 5:58 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

isn’t just about him liking to beat children.

I didn't say he likes beating children. Where do these things come from? 

It's almost like you feel being offended by anything, but not the thing you actually should (tho you shouldn't be offended by anything, since we're tslking about fictional characters).

Quote

In his conversation with Ned, he tells him about his disappointment in Joffrey and says that it wouldn’t trouble him if Joffrey was wild. He’s obviously bothered by Joffreys innate cruelty.

He's bothered by many things, but never resolved a single one.

As an end, as I mentioned, I expect you to give a complete answer this time, else don't bother with it, because I'm tired AF of this conversation that had no point this way.

[Lee-Sensei]

12 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I've got no idea what Robert did to Joffrey to 'cure' him, but I know that he would've beaten him to death (likely) if he was to be the only factor in that situation. He almost killed the boy he tought to be his son, and was willing to continue the same process. Great achievement, again.

There’s zero evidence that he’d have killed Joffrey. He hit him for torturing animals. Hitting bad children is normal in Westeros, and Joffrey didn’t steal a pie (Arlan beat Duncan for that). He was torturing animals.

Nice dodge by the way. Given the context of Cersei and Tywins conversation, wouldn’t you say it’s fair to infer that Robert tried talking to Joffrey about his behaviour?

 

Quote

Of course there isn't when you simply dismiss the source material and call someone who daily raped his wife 'a man with deep flaws'. Even if it's not criminal in Westeros, it is a shunned thing by somone who actually has a working moral compass, and I wonder what Ned would've said if he would've came to the realisation to what kind of a man he called his friend (given the difference between the two in a moral context).

All it would take is to leave back your personal preferences in an argument and interpret the text as it is.

That’s my line. George is pretty much where I am. He’s said that Robert was a good guy in a lot of ways, but he was flawed. On the other hand, he said that he felt like he needed to take a shower after writing Cersei’s chapters.

 

Quote

How could it be when I clearly state and say that Cersei is a way worse person than him. And on top of that only I claim that it doesn't change the fact that Robert had a hand in fucking up the royal marriage as much ad she had, because being a better person does not mean you were better than a worse person in a single matter. This arguments of yours entirely lacks the thing one would call mathematical logic. x=y doesn't mean x=z too. Being a better person doesn't mean you were the better man in a given situation.

We just fundamentally disagree. We have two people that are toxic to each other. One puts in a modicum of effort to make it work. The other doesn’t. One tries to avoid fights. The other constantly provokes them. One feels bad when he hurts his spouse. The other feels no remorse at all. Guess which of these apply to Robert and which of these apply to Cersei.

It’s good that you acknowledge that Cersei was a far worse person generally. Bow back on to the issue of them marrying other people. Is there any evidence of arobert hitting any other woman besides Cersei? That doesn’t make it right, but if you’re going to argue that he’d act the same no matter who he married, shouldn’t you provide evidence that he was just a woman beater generally? Do you have evidence that it wasn’t this one, incredibly toxic woman that seems to bring out the worst in everyone she has a relationship with?

 

Quote

Quote me where was I saying it. You can't, because I never said that. I said both would've had a better relationship with someone else, which you said isn't the case, because Cersei would be a jerk to anyone no matter if she is raped by that person daily or not and that Robert would've had a GOOD marriage with Edric's mother, of who we know nothing but that she was willing to fuck wih him.

What makes you think Cersei would have a good marriage with anyone else? How do you think Ned would react if Cersei threatened to murder Jon, like she threatened to murder Mya? How do you think he’d react when Jon was smothered in his crib (Cersei called Catelyn a weakling for not strangling the baby in its crib and accepting Jon in her home).

 

Quote

Like when he blamed the drink for the constant rape? Oh, yea, when he hit Cersei. I guess he showed his remorse in the inside when he still wanted to beat Joffrey after he almost killed him. Or maybe that's how he shows remorse. Beating the child you think is yours to death.

Did you not read the story? We saw that Robert had regrets about hitting Cersei. Cersei has no regrets about hitting and ultimately killing him though.

As I said, beating children is normal. Theon was beaten. Duncan was beaten. And neither of them were anywhere near as bad as Joffrey.
 

Quote

What do you expect from a woman who was raped A HUNDRED TIMES by that man? This only shows how he realised his marriage was fucked up, and if he would've felt like he isn't to balme for that, he would've done nothing.

Also, how is it proof that he and Jon had a good relationship that he was carrying a dagger given to him by Jon? It's like saying that he and Lyanna were in a good relationship because he still 'loves' him. That's not the case, and that's not a proof either.

Maybe you could read the book and set your bias aside? Robert got many better knives, but the only one he ever used was the old one he got from Jon Arryn. When Jon Arryn was dying, Robert sat by his bed for hours trying to raise his spirits. When Robert became King, he made Jon his hand. Jon named his first and only child after Robert. It’s beaten over our heads over and over that Robert and Ned were like sons to Jon. Yes. They had a good relationship.

 

Quote

For a good marriage (you were talking before) you need a normal woman and a normal man too. It is expectable from you to call him 'normal' (I wouldn't be surprised), but that doesn't change anything. Robert was raping Cersei while drunk without having a bad relationship playing a factor in it. That means that a frunk Robert would've raped anyone, be it his beloved wife you're talking about or Cersei. I wonder how much love a woman can feel to the man that constantly rapes her. I don't know exactly, but I guess I can still understand it better than you, since you don't even take into account such 'pity' things since they matter not. At this point you either protect the act of raping or your favourite. I'd like to know which (and I mean variation A or B. If you say none of those, I already dare call you a liar in that scenario), and if you don't intend to answer to this question, neither you should bother with another reply.

Does Robert have a pattern of raping or hitting women like Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton? Surely if he’d do that to any woman, there must be evidence from the books of him doing it to many other women. Right?

 

Quote

At this point this statement is pathetic instead of laughable.

I guess you really have a serious problem with interpretation, because I never said that. I said he didn't even care how the two children were threated. Not when he himself saw dead Rhaenys and Aegon with his eyes, and also not when Ned was outraged by what Tywin did to them and was talking to Robert.

He wasn't bad with money. We don't know if he was good with money or not. All we know is that he did not care. He gave a fuck about Jon's efforts and warnings so that he could fuck, feast and drink all the time.

Why do you think Robert didn’t have Daenerys or Viserys killed as children? Again, being bad with money doesn’t make you an evil person.

 

Quote

I bet Theon's life wasn't considered being in danger, like Joffrey's was. And the boy he hit wasn't his wife's son. He was a person he considered his own, and acted as such, so don't refer to Joffrey again that way.

Joffrey was definitely his wife’s son. Theon was beaten for jumping down the stairs and accidentally bumping in to Old NaN. Joffrey was hit once for cutting open a pregnant cat and ripping out the babies. Jumping down the stairs vs. torturing animals. Which of these two is normal behaviour for a child and which is the sign of sociopath? I wonder?

 

Quote

Yes, it is. The fact that promiscuous people are a bigger factor in Westeros doesn't mean it is approved by honorable people. For example, a men like Ned Stark, Garlan Tyrell or Lord Rowan would see raping your own wife as a horrible thing, whether it is approved or not by the Westerosi society. So yes, it is, in the eyes of a moral men, which sadly isn't the majority in Westeros.

Promiscuity isn’t the same as rape. I said being promiscuous doesn’t necessarily make someone a bad person.

 

Quote

And here we are, AGAIN. Going as far as claiming there might have been no twins at Casterly Rock. There were, don't question that. And the fact that their death ended up in no consequence supports that he didn't care after all. (Which is also supported by his own self, given that neither the death of Rhaegar's children affected him).

You have no evidence these twins existed and no evidence that if they did, he knew that they were killed.

 

Quote

I didn't say he didn't care about Jon Arryn. If I did, quote me and prove it (but I didn't ). I said that he gave a literal damn about the efforts Jon put into his work so that he could fuck and drink like hog. That doesn't mean he didn't love him, but I wonder what Jon Arryn felt when he had to clean Robert's shit for the thousandth time and saw the realm bankrupting.

What the fuck. So by this logic, can I say that Tywin is a good character, because he is far better than other persons, and then both Tywin and Ned are good characters? Do you realise what the actual bullshit you're talking about?

Did Robert have his sons wife gang raped as a punishment for having the gall to marry into his family? Robert isn’t comparable to Tywin or Cersei.

 

Quote

There is only 1 standard, and that applies on everyone. That's how you decide if someone is good or bad. Else Tywin ends up good as well as Ned, and you can't compare the two, since they're "uncomparable". That's not how things work. You can and you have to compare the good ones to bad ones, and the bad ones to the even worse ones. That's what makes the worse worse than bad, else Cersei and Robert are bot bad and equally bad, which they aren't. That's a logical mistake by your side, sir.

How wanting to cut off Arya's hand played a part in ruining the royal marriage which happened 10+ years ago? Again you left logic behind for the reasons I can only guess yet, but I have a good one.

It tells us about their character. You’ve tried to portray Robert as a child abuser and a woman abuser that would have been terrible to anyone he married. The fact that Robert didn’t want to punish Arya and Cersei did is indicative of their character and how they treat children. The only woman Robert ever hit was Cersei, unless you have another example. The only child Robert ever hit was Joffrey, unless you have another example. Could it be that Cersei and Joffrey are just uniquely toxic?

 

Quote

That proves something.

It really doesn’t. Catelyn was going to marry Brandon and he was similar in a lot of ways to Robert. She was happy about it.

 

Quote

After hundreds of occasions when he raped her. Isn't it what you expect?

Already heard that. But where was his remorse during other situations? Answer already, for God's sake, don't ignore this question for the 5th time.

Well, I have undeniable proff that he was a rapist and had issues with controlling anger. Isn't that enough? He always tried to solve his problems with beating a threatening others, even when it came to his best friend

He was talking shit. He next time he saw him, he handed him something to drink and asked him how his leg was. Cersei took opportunity to try provoke a fight between him and Ned and called Robert weak for not hurting Ned and allowing his friend to talk back to him.

Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. "Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers, he loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!"
 

Quote

He never went to the Vale to Mya, tho. I wonder if he saw his bastard son because he often paid a visit to his home or because of his bastard son was there too. And you can see how Edric wasn't aware of who Robert actually was (in a Davos chapter when Edric talks about his father).

When he was young before the war he visited her constantly actually.

 

Quote

I didn't say he likes beating children. Where do these things come from? 

It's almost like you feel being offended by anything, but not the thing you actually should (tho you shouldn't be offended by anything, since we're tslking about fictional characters).

He's bothered by many things, but never resolved a single one.

As an end, as I mentioned, I expect you to give a complete answer this time, else don't bother with it, because I'm tired AF of this conversation that had no point this way.

Then stop replying. You’re wrong anyways and anyone that has their eyes opened can see it. They were both bad. Cersei was worse and she bares the lions share of responsibility in screwing up their marriage. End of story.

 

[saltedmalted]

Joffrey was worse than spoilt.

Robert isn't responsible for Joffrey's psychopathic nature.