DUNE: For Want of Little Makers

[Arakan]

12 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

He was surprised by the Face Dancer attack in Om as well.  That wasn’t Siona.  And if they see the future in a “haze of possibility” how is that different from pushing the narrative toward the future they prefer?

Well we should ask Leto ll himself . What you are trying to say is that he didn’t chose the objectively best future for humanity but the one he liked the most. I don’t know Scot, might be but doesn’t make much sense. One major pillar of his Golden Path was to teach humanity a lesson so traumatic that they won’t suffer again Someone like him, a tyrant, a savior-leader, messiah leader, FÜHRER, a king/emperor/kaiser anointed by god, or even just a mundane dictator…

An objectively good thing. Imagine: in Herberts post Leto‘s world Someone like Trump won’t ever be elected again   

[Veltigar]

6 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

When it comes to the Fremen and Sardaukar, Herbert himself states they're the best fighters around. It's not debatable, when the all-knowing author asserts it. We just have to assume rules are bit different when applied to a galactic empire than when applied to our past history in some parts of our planet.

 

Obviously, as no one was stating otherwise here. Within this fictional universe they are the best. What readers are however very able (and dare I say entitled to do) is look at the philosophy, statements and other views in a work of fiction and point out how plausible these are in comparison to the real world, which is our primary frame of reference.

On that front, the Fremen and Sardaukar fail on pretty much every level. If you take a bunch of real people and were able to submit them to Sardaukar/Fremen circumstances and cultural values, not only would most of them die, but the minority of survivors would make for poor quality soldiers.

As an example, just look at the way these people transition their leadership before Paul arrives. They literally knife fight each other to death As if individual martial prowess is enough to make one a good leader. Not to mention that as a leader you would always have to be mistrustful of your best underlings, instead of utilizing them to their full effect.

It would be terrible for group cohesion if you were to enforce that in the real world (even though Herbert writes it as working in his) and it is just wasteful. Think about Jamis as a big bag of wasted resources. Sure, they recuperate his measly possessions and water but what about the hours upon hours of time they invested in rearing him? The food he ate? All of it gone in the blink of an eye. 

It is important to point that out, because books of fiction have a tendency to influence thinking and decision-making in the real world. Especially books that are as engaging and fun to read as Dune. That is why someone like Deveraux takes an inexorable amount of time to point out the flaws in the Fremen Mirage and the historic myth making about the Spartans as their supposed lessons lead to calamity and waste in the real world.

6 hours ago, Arakan said:

Completely irrelevant, also @Veltigar

This is Herbert‘s world, not the real world, and this is how he assessed it. His world, his rules. My last sentence exactly foreshadowed reactions like this. 

Wasn't your last sentence:

Spoiler

I know that’s a concept many won’t like. 

Don't see how that foreshadows anything really   Look at my reply above to Clueless Norman. I can accept that this is how Herbert wrote it. That being said, I can also point out that it isn't a very plausible description of the roots of military power and I hesitate always to think how many people read Herbert's work and internalized his extreme version of the idea that "hard times breed hard men" which leads to wrong priorities in the real world.

 

[Zorral]

13 hours ago, Arakan said:

I guess when you think of „hard“ Warriors, your mental picture shows you muscle-bound Marines. 

You know nothing Jon Snow  ,  When I think of hard warriors I think of Lagertha and Brida and Æthelflæd.     Who also have gone through labor, which is at least as tough as going through a battle. Which no warrior male has ever done.   At least when I think of historic or semi-historic or fictional or semi-fictional warriors.

But who, when it comes to fictional warriors, cannot think of Conan the Barbarian? 

 

14 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

Devereux's posts are good, but should also be taken with a grain of salt.

Why? Which dox and cites?

It really is hard to let go of what we always have believed we and the world knows, even when presented with the evidence.  This includes the idea, particularly among quite young males that women generally throughout history, and particularly medieval women, had no agency, never ruled  and never fought.  Which, holy cow, does even the histories of the so-called European Dark Ages tell us differently.

You're mistaken in saying any of this is irrelevant when consistently bringing up other fictional figures such as comix universe superheroes to support your arguments.

Yes, we do get what was going on in Dune, but we are saying please don't take what Herbert's story telling for how it works in the real world.

An army composed of nothing but psychopaths and sociopaths cannot stand because it cannot cooperate.  For instance, you want an army of tRumps as defense against Napoleon?

Also the Janissaries became the tail that wagged the emperor, decadent to the extent that being a Janissary was all about having control over trade and businesses and owning real estate, not fighting, as one learns from reading multiple works on the history of the Ottoman Empire. They got to the point where more than one of them schemed, despite supposedly being eunuchs, of removing their emperor, establishing a dynasty of their own in place of whom they were to obey in all things no questions asked.

 

[Corvinus85]

When it comes to tough armies, it's the training regimens and instilled discipline that makes the soldiers terrifying fighters on the battlefield. The sociopathy part comes in the form of the individual soldiers being able to kill their enemies without remorse and mercy. That's also part of their training. The toughness part comes from being able to endure a lot of shit. If you look at modern special forces, it's not always the biggest, strongest dude who completes the training regimen, it's the dude that has the mental fortitude to endure all the shit thrown at him and whose body doesn't simply shut down during those challenges.

The Spartans holding out at Thermopylae can be attributed to their training. After all, all they had to do is hold a narrow pass with the numbers they had against overwhelming odds. In other battles more was required, and they didn't always cut it. Winning wars takes more than just the mental and physical toughness of your soldiers.

As to the Fremen, they had the mental and physical toughness due to their upbringing. Until Paul showed up, they had no specific military discipline. While a Fremen could beat just about anyone in a knife fight, it didn't mean he was the superior soldier. Paul made them into that. The Atreides had already developed a training regimen for their own soldiers that made Shaddam worry about the Atreides being able to challenge the Sardaukar. All that and the Bene Gesserit weirding way Paul brought to the Fremen. Maybe to his credit, Herbert knew where his limits were regarding writing about military strategy and tactics, so the Fremen Jihad is ultimately vague on how it happened. But Paul had control of the only source of the spice melange in the universe, which gave him an immense logistical leverage. How many planets and noble houses simply surrendered to him? Ahead of the final battle in Dune, all the houses had shown up in orbit with troops, and they did nothing once Paul defeated Shaddam. I am also thinking, based on Dune Messiah, that a lot of the Fremen "successes" were mainly just atrocities committed without actual combat involved.

[Zorral]

Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' -- something else that most people think know what it means, don't know what it means -- at least as Darwin intended.

https://www.bbc.com/reel/playlist/a-fairer-world?vpid=p08rvznc

But there are lots of books and articles on this subject.

[Clueless Northman]

18 hours ago, Arakan said:

Well we should ask Leto ll himself . What you are trying to say is that he didn’t chose the objectively best future for humanity but the one he liked the most. I don’t know Scot, might be but doesn’t make much sense. One major pillar of his Golden Path was to teach humanity a lesson so traumatic that they won’t suffer again Someone like him, a tyrant, a savior-leader, messiah leader, FÜHRER, a king/emperor/kaiser anointed by god, or even just a mundane dictator…

An objectively good thing. Imagine: in Herberts post Leto‘s world Someone like Trump won’t ever be elected again   

Herbert really disliked the whole "Great Man" trope and obviously set out to destroy it entirely with late-stage Leto II and the aftermath of his reign. Mankind post-Leto II is basically what Herbert would've loved to see: people cured forever from the idea that a strong benevolent all-powerful leader would be a good idea.

 

5 hours ago, Zorral said:

It really is hard to let go of what we always have believed we and the world knows, even when presented with the evidence.  This includes the idea, particularly among quite young males that women generally throughout history, and particularly medieval women, had no agency, never ruled  and never fought.  Which, holy cow, does even the histories of the so-called European Dark Ages tell us differently.

You're mistaken in saying any of this is irrelevant when consistently bringing up other fictional figures such as comix universe superheroes to support your arguments.

Where did I mention anything about women in the Middle-ages? Or about fucking superheroes - typically a genre I don't give a damn about? I mean, I'm well aware of women's status in various ancient eras. Thankfully, they've not been relegated to the kitchen everywhere at every time. I was merely mentioning that Devereux' deconstruction of Fremen and Spartans were interesting but not 100% gospel truth either.

 

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

When it comes to tough armies, it's the training regimens and instilled discipline that makes the soldiers terrifying fighters on the battlefield.

so the Fremen Jihad is ultimately vague on how it happened. I am also thinking, based on Dune Messiah, that a lot of the Fremen "successes" were mainly just atrocities committed without actual combat involved.

As Frederick II said, "If a single one of my soldiers has an independent thought during battle, I am lost". Depending on the time and place, it was all drilling and discipline under a brilliant general that gave armies victories. Individual strength of soldiers was of no importance.

As for the Fremen, what has always been dubious for me about the Jihad is the few tens of mio of Fremen living in Arrakis being able to bring Paul enough manpower to go on a rampage across dozens or hundreds of worlds. It makes basically no sense. Like the conquistadores in Mexico or Peru, his troops must have been made up of a lot of other houses' troops to enable him to do his Jihad. Though I agree that atrocities against the bigger points of resistance to make sure others would surrender at once was most probably involved - like with the Mongols: make an example of a few so that you don't have to massacre half the continent / galaxy.

[mcbigski]

23 hours ago, Arakan said:

Anyway, the Sardaukar were not inspired by stupid Spartans but very obviously by the Janissary, the elite slave warrior units of the Ottoman Empire, under direct control of the Sultan (and only him), to a much lesser degree by the Mamluks and Pretorian Guard. 

The Sardaukar even suffer from the same hubris of believing their own hype too much as the later Janissary.

The Sardaukar weren't enslaved as children though like the Jannisaries, they were just the natives of Salusa Secondus.  Or did the Corrinos send the kids of the conquered to Salusa Secondus?  

[Arakan]

1 hour ago, mcbigski said:

The Sardaukar weren't enslaved as children though like the Jannisaries, they were just the natives of Salusa Secondus.  Or did the Corrinos send the kids of the conquered to Salusa Secondus?  

I have no idea if only young children from Salusa Secundus were „taken“ or „selected“ (however you wanna call THAT) or from other planets from the Empire as well. The text is unclear in that regard. Does it matter? The overwhelming majority (90%+) of the Jannisaries were recruited from a single region as well: the Balkans (incl. Greece/Bulgaria). 

And the Jannisaries were slaves in so far as they were the property of the Sultan, meaning only he could command the Jannisaries and they were loyal only to him. But to be a Jannisary was a huge thing, very prestigious. It’s complicated.
 

What matters is the following:

- selected / start of training as young children 
- harsh natural environment and training regime (for the Sardaukar: 6 out of 13 die before 11)
- trained to become soldier fanatics / religious fanatics 
- elite warriors with superb skillsets 
- feared throughout the Galaxy/Europe/Middle East
- superior to most foes they faced
- personal army of the Imperator / Sultan
- slow downfall (hubris, arrogance)

[Jace, Extat]

It is also suggested that the Emperor's Sardaukar could replace him if he didn't give them plunder or glory or whatever. Like the Praetorian guard indeed. 

It's something that the Duke Leto says in part one, I think. Or maybe the Baron.

 

[Arakan]

13 hours ago, Zorral said:

Why? Which dox and cites?

It really is hard to let go of what we always have believed we and the world knows, even when presented with the evidence.  This includes the idea, particularly among quite young males that women generally throughout history, and particularly medieval women, had no agency, never ruled  and never fought.  Which, holy cow, does even the histories of the so-called European Dark Ages tell us differently.

You're mistaken in saying any of this is irrelevant when consistently bringing up other fictional figures such as comix universe superheroes to support your arguments.

Yes, we do get what was going on in Dune, but we are saying please don't take what Herbert's story telling for how it works in the real world.

An army composed of nothing but psychopaths and sociopaths cannot stand because it cannot cooperate.  For instance, you want an army of tRumps as defense against Napoleon?

Also the Janissaries became the tail that wagged the emperor, decadent to the extent that being a Janissary was all about having control over trade and businesses and owning real estate, not fighting, as one learns from reading multiple works on the history of the Ottoman Empire. They got to the point where more than one of them schemed, despite supposedly being eunuchs, of removing their emperor, establishing a dynasty of their own in place of whom they were to obey in all things no questions asked.

Overall you are talking nonsense. And why for the love of God do you have to make it a male vs. female thing, I already asked you that. As I ALREADY had mentioned Herbert didn’t separate between men/women, his thinking included Fremen women as well and later on the Fishspeakers, not to mention the Bene Gesserit or later on the Honoured Matres. So, as I said you are speaking nonsense. 

Regarding the Janissaries…now you are joking right? Right? Yes, they became a corrupt, mutinous joke of a former elite corps but that doesn’t change the fact that they were feared throughout Europe, and rightly so, as an efficient, fanatic (more religious order than military order) and ruthless elite infantry corps between the late 14th and early 18th century (roughly 1380-1700). And guess what? Here is the excerpt of the Sardaukar from Dune:

Quote

Sardaukar: the soldier-fanatics of the Padishah Emperor. They were men from an environmental background of such ferocity that it killed six out of thirteen persons before the age of eleven. Their military training emphasized ruthlessness and a near-suicidal disregard for personal safety. They were taught from infancy to use cruelty as a standard weapon, weakening opponents with terror. At the apex of their sway over the affairs of the Universe […] any one of them was rated a match for any ten ordinary Landsraad military conscripts. By the time of Shaddam lV, while they were still formidable, their strength had been sapped by overconfidence, and the sustaining mystique of their warrior religion had been deeply undermined by cynicism.

 

Quote

An army composed of nothing but psychopaths and sociopaths cannot stand because it cannot cooperate.  For instance, you want an army of tRumps as defense against Napoleon?

Trump? Really? Trump? A narcissistic coward as example is the best you got? holy moly. As I have already mentioned, there is not really an real world example of a military unit consisting solely of fullblown (pathological) psychopaths, Dirlewanger‘s Black Hunters is maybe the only real example. But those things are not black or white, 0 or 1, psychopathic tendencies or better anti-social personality traits are on a spectrum, shades of grey. Only a fraction of people with an anti-social personality structure or clear psychopathic/sociopathic tendencies can be considered pathological or clinical psychopaths or better can be considered as a person with anti-social personality disorder. Studies suggest that roughly 15-20% of the population fall under the former while only 3-5% of the Overall Population can be considered having anti-social personality disorder. 

[Arakan]

8 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

As for the Fremen, what has always been dubious for me about the Jihad is the few tens of mio of Fremen living in Arrakis being able to bring Paul enough manpower to go on a rampage across dozens or hundreds of worlds. It makes basically no sense. Like the conquistadores in Mexico or Peru, his troops must have been made up of a lot of other houses' troops to enable him to do his Jihad. Though I agree that atrocities against the bigger points of resistance to make sure others would surrender at once was most probably involved - like with the Mongols: make an example of a few so that you don't have to massacre half the continent / galaxy.

Yep, the conduction of Paul‘s jihad is kept very vague which is ok. I think you nailed it with your scenario. The Fremen have to be considered as his elite corps, coming into action only when resistance is tough. And of course Mongolian shock and awe tactics make much sense. We have to keep in mind that the Fremen at this stage (after the won Battle of Arrakis against Shaddam) have been totally and wholly fanatical (with very few exceptions). Paul is their Mahdi, and resistance against him is resistance against the will of God. It’s frightening really, especially in Dune Messiah, when Paul who clearly is traumatized by the jihad in his name talks to Stilgar about all the atrocities committed by or through him and Stilgar, normally a voice of reason and cool head, casually dismisses any of Paul‘s worries. 80 billion dead? Well shouldn’t have resisted against the Chosen One.

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, mcbigski said:

The Sardaukar weren't enslaved as children though like the Jannisaries, they were just the natives of Salusa Secondus.  Or did the Corrinos send the kids of the conquered to Salusa Secondus?  

 

The designation 'prison planet' suggests pretty strongly that people were sent there. However since the Emperor presumably isn't sending hordes of politically opposed under-11s to the planet, it does seem like it must be whole families/cultures sent there for opposing the Emperor and their children become Sarduakar. And there may be some natives as well, it's never really very clear. 

 

15 minutes ago, Arakan said:

As I ALREADY mentioned Herbert didn’t separate between men/women,

 

You can ALREADY mention all you like, Herbert pretty clearly did separate between men and women, especially in the first book which is under discussion. Yes, there were Fremen women warriors but even in their culture women obviously had separate roles and in the galaxy at large things are very very gendered, and even at a narrative level, though he does in later books wind back from it, the search for the Kwisatz Haderach has weird men's energy/women's energy stuff going on.
But that's beside the point of Zorral's comments, which so far as I can tell were a more general comment on the reason for the popularity of things like the Spartan myth and etc, a reason which does usually come with a side-order of relegating women. It wasn't in this case a specific attack on anyone.

 

Quote

What Herbert writes about, and what very much applies to the real world, is a toughness and flexibility of the mind. Perfection of necessary skill sets, psychological endurance, the ability to suffer without complaint (a psychological asset) etc pp. 

In the end, it’s a psychological and even philosophical thing. „The glory of life lies in the struggle itself, against all odds and in the face of certain death.“ 

I mean, this is still a load of bollocks, the idea that tough circumstances intrinsically produces tough people, physically or mentally. Heck, coincidentally a mate of mine did a podcast recently that I listened to yesterday discussing among other things this idea through the slant of MMA and how fighters from the Caucausus are perceived. It's nonsense. For every person that manages to break through, there are gonna be several who drop away who would have been just as good at the final job if they didn't burn out.

Also Herbert is very very focused on the idea that tough environment makes tough warriors, when it comes to fighting people. Yes, there's more complexity to it, but not only are the Sarduakar defined by their combat capability and the Fremen lionised for their beating them at it, but it's explicitly stated that the Sarduakar fight that well because of the environment and the Baron freaks out when he realises the Emperor might have cause to believe he's training warriors in his own harsh environment. And the Fremen don't want to entirely un-barren Dune because they also believe they'll lose their edge.  It's an explicitly stated part of the novel. 

 

 

 

[Arakan]

3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

The designation 'prison planet' suggests pretty strongly that people were sent there. However since the Emperor presumably isn't sending hordes of politically opposed under-11s to the planet, it does seem like it must be whole families/cultures sent there for opposing the Emperor and their children become Sarduakar. And there may be some natives as well, it's never really very clear. 

 

 

You can ALREADY mention all you like, Herbert pretty clearly did separate between men and women, especially in the first book which is under discussion. Yes, there were Fremen women warriors but even in their culture women obviously had separate roles and in the galaxy at large things are very very gendered, and even at a narrative level, though he does in later books wind back from it, the search for the Kwisatz Haderach has weird men's energy/women's energy stuff going on.
But that's beside the point of Zorral's comments, which so far as I can tell were a more general comment on the reason for the popularity of things like the Spartan myth and etc, a reason which does usually come with a side-order of relegating women. It wasn't in this case a specific attack on anyone.

 

I mean, this is still a load of bollocks, the idea that tough circumstances intrinsically produces tough people, physically or mentally. Heck, coincidentally a mate of mine did a podcast recently that I listened to yesterday discussing among other things this idea through the slant of MMA and how fighters from the Caucausus are perceived. It's nonsense. For every person that manages to break through, there are gonna be several who drop away who would have been just as good at the final job if they didn't burn out.

Also Herbert is very very focused on the idea that tough environment makes tough warriors, when it comes to fighting people. Yes, there's more complexity to it, but not only are the Sarduakar defined by their combat capability and the Fremen lionised for their beating them at it, but it's explicitly stated that the Sarduakar fight that well because of the environment and the Baron freaks out when he realises the Emperor might have cause to believe he's training warriors in his own harsh environment. And the Fremen don't want to entirely un-barren Dune because they also believe they'll lose their edge.  It's an explicitly stated part of the novel. 

 

 

 

A load of bollocks? Wonderful argument :).
What? You are the ones who are focusing on physical aspects and all that shit, not Herbert. It’s your bias, not Herbert‘s. That you mention stupid MMA fighters tells me all.

You know who are the toughest motherfuckers out there when it comes to professional sports? OLYMPIC GYMNASTS (regardless discipline), be it men or women. THIS IS IT.

Yeah, they need to have the physical attributes, motoric capabilities, hand-eye coordination, perfect muscle control etc but it’s the MIND, the Psyche, who separates the good ones from the Great ones. The ability to suffer in training (incomparable to every other sports), the necessary, almost killing discipline, the conditioning of the mind to overcome every intrinsic instinct of the body, to be crazy enough to do such exercises.  

Why is it that I have to suffer stupid example after stupid example, be it from you or from Zorral? Spartans, Conan the Barbarian (ffs), Trump (ffs), MMA fighters (give me a break). 

You wanna now what Herbert was talking about? Go and watch Olympic Gymnasts (or ballet dancers). Stop trying to build an agenda against Herbert, men vs. women bullshit, don’t leave out the Bene Gesserit (the real superhumans in the novels) or the Fishspeakers or the Honored Matres. And check your own biases (MMA fighters…REALLY??).

[polishgenius]

 

11 minutes ago, Arakan said:

That you mention stupid MMA fighters tells me all.

It tells me that you don't understand MMA and are a disrespectful little ignorant tit if you just dismiss all of them as stupid just because I used the sport in a point against you. And then you have the nerve to dismiss my argument even though, despite  using a vaguely bad word, I made the arguments to back me up and your only response is that's not the TEXT that's YOU even though it pretty clearly is the text as well.


Also: yessss, your argument for Herbert not separating men and women is really strengthened by bringing up the famously mixed gender Bene Gesserit. 



Also also: your mentioning of gymnasts means fuck all here. No-one's suggesting that you don't get great at things by working really hard, sometimes past the point of your own physical endurance. But Olympic gymnasts aren't grown on a diet of deprivation and violence, which is the situation we're talking about here. They aren't deliberarely put in desperate poverty or danger over and over to toughen them, which is the basis used for the Sarduakar and Fremen being tough., 

[Arakan]

23 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

It tells me that you don't understand MMA and are a disrespectful little ignorant tit if you just dismiss all of them as stupid just because I used the sport in a point against you. And then you have the nerve to dismiss my argument even though, despite  using a vaguely bad word, I made the arguments to back me up and your only response is that's not the TEXT that's YOU even though it pretty clearly is the text as well.


Also: yessss, your argument for Herbert not separating men and women is really strengthened by bringing up the famously mixed gender Bene Gesserit. 

I am ignorant? Tells me the person whose only argument was „loads of bollocks“. And the last sentence…I know what you are trying to do and that is devious and dishonest. And fucking desperate. The Bene Gesserit are of female sex, better? And please, do not quote me again, you are arguing dishonestly. Bye.

[Arakan]

5 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Also also: your mentioning of gymnasts means fuck all here. No-one's suggesting that you don't get great at things by working really hard, sometimes past the point of your own physical endurance. But Olympic gymnasts aren't grown on a diet of deprivation and violence, which is the situation we're talking about here. They aren't deliberarely put in desperate poverty or danger over and over to toughen them, which is the basis used for the Sarduakar and Fremen being tough., 

Not deliberately put in danger? Really? You don’t know nothing about gymnastics I see. You are full of biases, and you don’t get Herbert, that’s for sure. The fact that you always come back to physical aspects or violence tells me that. You don’t get neither the Fremen nor the Sardaukar nor the Bene Gesserit nor the Fishspeakers nor the Honored Matres. Bye.

[polishgenius]

Gymnasts are great, I've said often in the past that I consider it the most hard-core sport and Shun Fujimoto the most hard-core sportsperson, but they aren't usually trained in situations where they're incessantly pushed as hard as possible, by the environment and each other, until they break or die. Which is explicitly, within the text, no interpretation required, how Herbert framed how the Sardukar and Fremen became who they are. And violence is a key part of that, it's the defining aspect of the Sardukar and a very key one of the Fremen. You certainly could make the argument that via Paul's changes of Fremen culture Herbert is commenting negatively on aspects of the trope, but it's still unquestionably clear in the text that living in hardship has made both elite at what they do- violence, in this case, but my whole point originally is this is a falsehood whether we're talking violence or anything else. 

Basically in the real world in general people with resources and a will to apply themselves to something do better than people with the will but whose life is also taken up with the needs of survival. 

[Veltigar]

I think both of you are missing the point. The real question is whether the Fighting Four would have done better than their silver medal at the Tokyo Olympics if Tom Forster had won his position as head coach after killing Valeri Liukin in a knife fight 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 hours ago, mcbigski said:

The Sardaukar weren't enslaved as children though like the Jannisaries, they were just the natives of Salusa Secondus.  Or did the Corrinos send the kids of the conquered to Salusa Secondus?  

Salusa Secondus is the Prison Planet of the Empire.  It had no “natives”.  The Sardaukar are the survivors of Salusa Secondus.

[polishgenius]

2 hours ago, Veltigar said:

I think both of you are missing the point. The real question is whether the Fighting Four would have done better than their silver medal at the Tokyo Olympics if Tom Forster had won his position as head coach after killing Valeri Liukin in a knife fight 

In fairness, although I had to write the tweet again so the bit where I was more clear on this is no more, I think that sentiment was implicit in my suggestion that I don't think training centers worldwide are littered with dead gymnasts.