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DUNE: For Want of Little Makers


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On 10/26/2020 at 2:32 PM, SpaceChampion said:

Herbert called Paul an anti-hero, but I think he's in error, from my perspective 50 years later when these concepts are more delineated.  The proper term for him is anti-villain.  An anti-hero is a reluctant hero.  Paul knew his actions would result in jihad, and wanted to teach humanity how fucked up starting a genocidal war-mongering religion is.  So Paul became a reluctant villain, and saw his goal fulfilled by his son thousands of years later.

This is the only anti-villain story I'm familiar with.  Are there others?

Not sure about the terms, but Paul and Jessica didn't set out to teach anyone a lesson about religion, they selfishly manipulated Fremen religion via the missionaria protectiva to survive the assassination attempt against them, and harness and turn the desert power of the Fremen against the Emperor and Harkonnens rather than just be content to disappear and survive with their lives.

Duke Leto and House Atreides went into Arrakis with every intention of trying to use the Fremen to defeat the trap the Emperor and Harkonnens had laid for them on Arrakis, and Paul and Jessica masterfully used the missionaria protectiva to continue those plans after Leto was murdered.

Basically, at first Paul was just a wronged duke trying to survive and get justice. In the process, his prescient abilities made him aware that humanity was on a path where every human life would be able to be hunted down a killed. He chose the path in which humanity survives, but he couldn't bring himself to endure another 3,000 years of the last decade plus and worse.

Paul chose the only path in which he saw humanity would survive total destruction. Yet after living through the billions murdered in his name for over a decade after Dune, he couldn't bring himself to shepherd humanity over thousands of more years, doing all of the terrible things he knew would have to be done until he knew the golden path had succeeded, as Leto II did.

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2 hours ago, Vaughn said:

I loved the first book, enjoyed the second book and read the next two a few times. I never gave Heretics or Chapterhouse a go and from the summaries I've read, they don't sound good. What do people *on here* think of them?

As a lover of the Frank Herbert originals, I say definitely worth reading. By that point, humanity's survival has already been guaranteed in the countless unknown worlds and universes, but we stay in the core of the old empire to see what will become of the remnants that have remained in the core of the old empire. 

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2 hours ago, Vaughn said:

Yeah, there seem to be a lot of militant feminists running amok from the wiki summaries. Ghola Idaho never really interested me that much either so that's another drawback. I think at a very basic level, I don't buy that after 3500 years anything (other than than the near immortal being in the center) would last. So the idea that the BG and Tlexitian (sp?) are still active is absurd. Like if we had Old Kingdom Egyptian kings or Zhou dynasty emperors as world players today.

It's a funny thing, fantasy/scifi - immortal worm-human hybrid, sure. Reincarnated clone, sure. Organzations made up of and run by humans lasting 3500, impossible! I guess I can suspend my disbelief in stuff of real fantasy but not my beliefs about what human nature is.

I disagree. The Bene Gesserit and Bene Tleilax are more like religions than royal dynasties (no matter how cynical and manipulative the BG are on religion), and we have 3,000+ year old religions today, no matter how much or little they have changed over the millennia. In fact, one of those peoples/religions is present in the final book of Dune, making them over 15,000 years old at that point.

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1 hour ago, Rhom said:

Saw an ad for Dune action figures from McFarlane today... somehow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised; but I was.  :dunno: 

A real missed opportunity out there to not have an inflatable Xmas sandworm to compete with all the Star Wars lawn decorations this season. You could even have Santa and some elves riding it.

'the 'nog must flow'

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Kind of related, but Legendary is apparently not ruling out a legal option if they can't bring WB to the table to renegotiate, re: the latter's intention to simultaneously release all of its 2021 films on HBO max and theaters. 

I wonder, beyond covid, if this might likewise have an impact on the consideration of greenlighting of Dune's sequel. Gut says no, but...

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On 12/7/2020 at 8:14 PM, JEORDHl said:

Kind of related, but Legendary is apparently not ruling out a legal option if they can't bring WB to the table to renegotiate, re: the latter's intention to simultaneously release all of its 2021 films on HBO max and theaters. 

I wonder, beyond covid, if this might likewise have an impact on the consideration of greenlighting of Dune's sequel. Gut says no, but...

Yup. They are furious because Legendary own 75% of the rights to Godzilla vs. Kong and were offered $275 million to put it on Netflix (which would put them in profit immediately) but were blocked by WB, who own the other 25%. Legendary asked WB to make a counter-offer to have it on HBO Max and WB refused to answer. WB have then unilaterally announced it's going to be on HBO Max without asking Legendary, which they don't have the right to do, plus the way they've gone about it is apparently a form of self-trading. So Legendary are going to rinse them in court.

WB could buy out the rest of the movies which would probably be the cheapest way to get around the problem (although that would cost them ~$200 million), although it would also leave responsibility for a future Dune sequel with WB alone. I get the impression Villeneuve is pissed off with them (and Nolan certainly is).

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14 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

According to a Collider article I just read Dune will be getting an exclusive theatrical release.

I’m... torn.  

Not until October, which assuming the vaccines hold against the new variants should be fine.

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9 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Not until October, which assuming the vaccines hold against the new variants should be fine.

I hear you, and I'll likely have my second does by then [Canada is pushing up to 4 months for the second] I still don't think it's something I can risk, personally. So yeah, kind of butthurt.

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Warner Brothers are saying the news is BS and Dune will launch day and date in both cinemas and HBO Max.

Legendary were threatening legal action over breach of contract a few months back over this, so it's unclear what the final situation will be.

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It came from Deadline and Deadline are usually 100% reliable.

I am wondering if there is a third way here, and the film will be released to cinemas only in some overseas territories but to streaming in the US, which would (just about) satisfy both sides' claims.

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