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Is Ned worse then Barristan in terms of honorable stupidity?


Alyn Oakenfist

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Yes, Barristan does act the honorable fool everytime, even going as far as saving Aerys, but I mean he does regret it. His POV's are filled with regret over serving a mad king and over saving him at Duskendale. And while he does seem to hate Jaime a bit, he seems far more understanding of him, or at least doesn't care enough. He never once thinks about him in his POV's. Ned on the other hand thinks and talks about honor like he's a headless chicken and is perfectly content with him wanting to kill Aerys and him considering Jaime the scum of the Earth for killing him, because Jaime swore a vow.

Because I'm sure if he had to watch his father roast alive and his brother strangled he would have kept a holy vow. Or if Aerys ordered him to kill his father. And Ned doesn't ever seem to regret his nasty actions done in the name of honor. So what do you think? Who is the bigger honorable fool? Ned or Barristan?

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13 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

We don't know anything about went besides him having a dark humor

We do know he was among Rhaegar’s closest friends, and that he was w/ Dayne and Rhaegar when they came upon Lyanna. To me that suggests he was in on Rhaegar’s plans to remove Aerys, regardless of what exactly those plans were. All of that points to Whent seeing and understanding the need to do something. In other words, doing the right thing, the honourable thing, despite it not being the dutiful thing. 

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3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Ned at least had the sense to join the rebellion against the mad king. Barristan is held up as the height of knightly virtue by turning a blind eye to the mad king's crimes and fighting so he may continue them.

Yes, but Ned also abhors the man that gave Aerys justice despite him wanting to do the same, while Barristan seems a lot more mild in regards to Jaime.

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18 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes, but Ned also abhors the man that gave Aerys justice despite him wanting to do the same, while Barristan seems a lot more mild in regards to Jaime.

If Robert stormed into the Red Keep and smashed Aerys' head in, Ned probably wouldn't have had an issue. I think the core of Ned having issue with Jaime's actions is he distrusts the Lannisters and is grabbing at every reason he can to justify that distrust.

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Just now, Lord Lannister said:

If Robert stormed into the Red Keep and smashed Aerys' head in, Ned probably wouldn't have had an issue. I think the core of Ned having issue with Jaime's actions is he distrusts the Lannisters and is grabbing at every reason he can to justify that distrust.

That doesn't quite make sense. It would make sense for him to bundle them together and blame them equally for Aegon and Rhaenys, but he didn't know about that when he confronted Jaime in the Throne room. And yet from what Jaime tells us, the hate was there from the beginning. So if he used the Kingslaying as an excuse to cover his hatred of the Lannister, what caused that original hatred?

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2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That doesn't quite make sense. It would make sense for him to bundle them together and blame them equally for Aegon and Rhaenys, but he didn't know about that when he confronted Jaime in the Throne room. And yet from what Jaime tells us, the hate was there from the beginning. So if he used the Kingslaying as an excuse to cover his hatred of the Lannister, what caused that original hatred?

Tywin Lannister didn't live a saintly life. There's plenty there alone to look down on and Ned is in the habit of looking down on people's flaws he doesn't like and turning a blind eye to those he does.

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26 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Tywin Lannister didn't live a saintly life. There's plenty there alone to look down on and Ned is in the habit of looking down on people's flaws he doesn't like and turning a blind eye to those he does.

Interesting thought... It could be correct. If it were it would mean Ned is the biggest hypocrite that ever walked the Earth, finding reason to hate Jaime for something he himself would have done solely because of the crimes of his father.

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Part of the reason why Ned judges Jaime so harshly, is because he stabbed Arys in the back. We know that he's a sound believer that 'he who passes the sentence, must look the convicted in the eyes, to know whether he deserves the sentence'. It's not a full explanation however, since he doesn't judge Robert as harshly for using a headsman, he simply just disapproves. 

Another thing that played a part, was that he found Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne (and he was the one who found him there), which may well be a bigger offence, than it seems to be. Robert laughed it off, but Ned saw it as a grab for power, which it may well have been. Even if Jaime didn't intend to grab the power, it's quite likely that the act itself did indeed symbolise Jaime proclaiming himself king. I don't think this is something well known, and if it was, it wouldn't be unlike Barristan to disapprove of it as well.

This in combination with the sack of King's Landing is the only reasonable explanation for Ned's distrust towards the Lannisters, given that there's never been a feud between the two houses that we know of. 

Another reason why Barristan doesn't judge Jaime as harshly, is because he knows him personally, as a colleague. He has probably seen a bit more of Jaime's redeeming qualities. Although Jaime's redemption arch doesn't start until later in the books, he was probably capable of being nice before that, and Barristan has surely seen him being brave and courageous many times. Ned has an image of a man performing a cowardly act, but Jaime is no coward, and it's reasonable to assume that Barristan has a much more accurate image of Jaime in that respect, than Ned has. Prowess in battle, and courage are qualities that Barristan values, hence he thinks more highly of Jaime.

Another difference is that Ned was actually in a position, being a Lord, where passing judgement was part of the job, whereas Barristan goes out of his way to avoid that. Now as Hand of the Queen, he is starting to form opinions about right and wrong, and it's quite clear that he has a hard time doing that, partially due to all his years being dutiful, and keeping quiet about all the atrocities he's seen the kings (Arys in particular, but Robert wasn't the most capable king either) he served perform. His tactic has always been to try not to have an opinion about it. 

Speaking of atrocities; unlike Ned, Barristan has actually SEEN the monstrous things Arys did. Even if he doesn't approve stabbing the king you serve in the back, he could probably completely UNDERSTAND why Jaime might have done it. He may even have contemplated doing the same, but deciding against it. In fact he may even admire Jaime for having the courage to do, what he did not. In the end the main reason why he would not have done it, would be because he didn't want to lose his honour, and in turn be known as a kingslayer, but in the end that is an egotistical reason, motivated by pride. Jaime was capable of setting aside his pride and honour, for all the realm to see. He was willing to have his name be smeared, and in the end (even though he had his own, personal reasons for doing it) it was for the good of the realm.

Ned was incapable of acknowledging the courage of Jaime's action, and he saw Jaime's sitting on the throne as an act of arrogance, or treason or whatever. But there was courage in that too. Jaime could have run away, or claimed that someone else did it. In all the confusion, he could have blamed anyone for murdering the king, but he didn't. He chose to own what he did, and bear whatever consequences it would have. It's perfectly possible that Barristan saw the courage in that as well, for it may well have been the reason why he himself never killed the king (I'm sure that if he had chosen to kill the king, he would've owned it too, but I think he couldn't bear the consequence of listing his honour, he could live with being sentenced to death, but not losing his honour). In that sense it's quite ironic, that Ned, who was so honourable, and so judgemental of Jaime doing something so dishonourable, eventually died a traitor's death.

 

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5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes, Barristan does act the honorable fool everytime,

Not everytime. Not when he arrested king Hzdar nor when he agreed to give the dictatorship of Pentos to the Tattered Prince in return for Danys boyfriend and bloodrider

1 hour ago, Eliscat said:

If Ned didn’t agree to lie at the steps of the Sept, would he have been executed? 

Or when he forged Roberts will? Or if he never tried bribing the gold cloaks?

1 hour ago, Eliscat said:

Can an argument be made it was his dishonor that killed him?

Sure seems like it!

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8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And while he does seem to hate Jaime a bit, he seems far more understanding of him,

No, he doesn't, he absolutely despises Jaime, with his cognitive dissonance but he does.

 

Quote

"Your time is done," Cersei Lannister announced. "Joffrey requires men around him who are young and strong. The council has determined that Ser Jaime Lannister will take your place as the Lord Commander of Sworn Brothers of the White Swords."
"The Kingslayer," Ser Barristan said, his voice hard with contempt. "The false knight who profaned his blade with the blood of the king he had sworn to defend."

 

Quote

Sansa heard someone gasp. Ser Boros and Ser Meryn moved forward to confront him, but Ser Barristan froze them in place with a look that dripped contempt. "Have no fear, sers, your king is safe … no thanks to you. Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese. If you would serve under the Kingslayer, not a one of you is fit to wear the white." He flung his sword at the foot of the Iron Throne. "Here, boy. Melt it down and add it to the others, if you like. It will do you more good than the swords in the hands of these five. Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne."
 

 

Quote

"Yours, if you will have me." Ser Barristan had tears in his eyes. "I took Robert's pardon, aye. I served him in Kingsguard and council. Served with the Kingslayer and others near as bad, who soiled the white cloak I wore. Nothing will excuse that. I might be serving in King's Landing still if the vile boy upon the Iron Throne had not cast me aside, it shames me to admit. But when he took the cloak that the White Bull had draped about my shoulders, and sent men to kill me that selfsame day, it was as though he'd ripped a caul off my eyes. That was when I knew I must find my true king, and die in his service—"

 

 

Quote

He had almost revealed himself then and there, but something stopped him—caution, cowardice, instinct, call it what you will. He could not imagine Barristan the Bold greeting him with anything but hostility. Selmy had never approved of Jaime's presence in his precious Kingsguard. Before the rebellion, the old knight thought him too young and untried; afterward, he had been known to say that the Kingslayer should exchange that white cloak for a black one. And his own crimes were worse. Jaime had killed a madman. Tyrion had put a quarrel through the groin of his own sire, a man Ser Barristan had known and served for years. He might have chanced it all the same, but then Penny had landed a blow on his shield and the moment was gone, never to return.

 

8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Ned on the other hand thinks and talks about honor like he's a headless chicken and is perfectly content with him wanting to kill Aerys and him considering Jaime the scum of the Earth for killing him, because Jaime swore a vow.

For all the Ned talks about honor like a headless chicken, people trying to shit on Ned do not bother to give the matter three seconds of thought.

 

- Ned had no swear any oath to Aerys.

- Aerys had crossed several lines, several times by the time.

- Jaime was a Kingsguard, with all that implies.

- Ned took the field and defeated the loyalists in fair battle.

- Jaime, apparently, jumped ship on the very last moment and quite literally stabbed the King he was protecting in the back. That's not only dishonorable, that's very very coward.

 

There is a conversation between Jaime and Ned in the show that sums how people see Jaime and why he's so despised.

 

 

 

All in all, comparing Ned and Jaime is simply a futile argument. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And Ned doesn't ever seem to regret his nasty actions done in the name of honor.

What nasty actions??

 

I will never understand why people believe Ned's issues with the Lannisters are more complicated that they really are.

 

  1. He believes them wildly opportunistic.
  2. He believes them way too power hungry.
  3. He knows them child murderers.
  4. Their word is shit in Ned's pov.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Or when he forged Roberts will? Or if he never tried bribing the gold cloaks?

We alm know why he forged Robert's will...

And if he never tried to bribe the Goldcloaks he would've needed to turn himself in... Which he kinda did anyways.

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11 minutes ago, frenin said:

- Ned took the field and defeated the loyalists in fair battle.

So I was goin to write a point by point reply, but this, this is just too much. Fair battle? Are you mental? If there is one clear abundantly clear about this story is that there is no honor or fairness about battle. It's just a horrible gnarly bloodbath. Ned killing thousands of innocents to get to Aerys doesn't make him more honorable then Jaime. If anything it makes him less honorable, that any justice to Aerys came at the cost of thousands of innocent.

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1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Fair battle?

Yes.

 

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Are you mental?

I think not.

 

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

If there is one clear abundantly clear about this story is that there is no honor or fairness about battle.

Sure but we all can tell the difference between fair battle and whatnot. And this is a world in which battle does kind of have honor. It happens the same as today, when you see armies bragging about their courage, loyalty and honor.

Battle and heroes have been romanticized since always. Ned and his rebellion, up until the aftermath of the Trident feels like an epic more like an actual war, especially because Martin doesn't dwelve in the distateful parts so often,  he will in a future i'm sure, the only  moments he does is when talking about the Sack or the Siege of Storm's End.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's just a horrible gnarly bloodbath

Yeah.

 

8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Ned killing thousands of innocents to get to Aerys doesn't make him more honorable then Jaime.

I think it depends of how Jaime kills him, if he does as he did, well, yes it does make him more honorable. This is medieval honor we're talking about.

 

9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

If anything it makes him less honorable, that any justice to Aerys came at the cost of thousands of innocent.

That's the world they live in, it's not like they could denounce Aerys, Aerys is the judge.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, frenin said:

We alm know why he forged Robert's will...

Because of some misplaced belief that Aegon the dragons near 300 year old law is anything less then gibberish, despite it clearly being less of an issue when Robert climbed over Rhaegars kids and ordered an assassin on a pregnant teenager?

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

And if he never tried to bribe the Goldcloaks he would've needed to turn himself in... Which he kinda did anyways.

Or he coulda just shown Janos a book and ordered him to dispense the Hands peace, but sad Ned thought a man whos once accused of corruption can only be moved by LFs treasury.

Turn himself in for what?

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42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because of some misplaced belief that Aegon the dragons near 300 year old law is anything less then gibberish, despite it clearly being less of an issue when Robert climbed over Rhaegars kids and ordered an assassin on a pregnant teenager?

What?? The Succession laws predate Targaryen invasion, they predate the Andal Invasion even.

I don't really see where's the correlation but...

 

 

44 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Or he coulda just shown Janos a book and ordered him to dispense the Hands peace, but sad Ned thought a man whos once accused of corruption can only be moved by LFs treasury.

What book?? Saying to him that color hair don't match ergo bastard?? I mean...

Btw,  Janos Slynt was indeed bought by Littlefinger and the Lannisters, he was not made Lord of Harrenhall because Cersei liked how he smelt. 

So yes, Ned was perfectly right to understand that in a moment where who has the legit power is in doubt... Buy swords. 

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