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Queen Nym

Why I think Lady Stoneheart is much more important than we imagine

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First of all, Hi everybody!  I am new in this forum so I am very excited (and a little nervous) because this is my first post:)

Lady Stoneheart's importance 

In the past, I thought Lady Stoneheart's role in the books was only revenge, and that her biggest impact on the story would be the plotting of Red Wedding 2.0... and although I am 100% sure she will participate in the new RW and kill her fill of Freys and Lannisters, her role seems to be much more important than avenging poor Robb. Why? 

[An Italian fan] then asked George if Lady Stoneheart was going to appear on the show. George said no, that she’d been cut. He said if he were involved in the show things would be different, but he’s busy trying to finish books. (Speaking to fans at a dinner at Balticon in 2016).

here’s Martin in 2017 talking to TIME

"At some points, when [showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss] and I had discussions about what way we should go in, I would always favor sticking with the books, while they would favor making changes. I think one of the biggest ones would probably be when they made the decision not to bring Catelyn Stark back as Lady Stoneheart. That was probably the first major diversion of the show from the books and, you know, I argued against that, and David and Dan made that decision".

 

This quote seems somehow fishy for me. How could LS character be the first major diversion from the books if hers was merely a revenge arc? I mean, yeah, she can be the mastermind behind  the Red Wedding 2.0, but any other character could take her place: Arya, Blackfish or even bloody Jane Westerling, there is no need for LS in such as way that George considers it a "major diversion". 

George, who takes utmost care in revealing nothing about his story and future plot twists, and specially when it's related to the TV adaptation,  seems quite vocal about his disagreement with D&D in this point. Spoiler from TV show:

Spoiler

specially if you take into account that in the TV show Arya took the revenge arc in the Riverlands from Stoneheart: what does it matter if RW was accomplished by Arya or LS?  

In an interview with Esquire China (translated by CNET)

"In the book, characters can be resurrected. After Catelyn is resurrected as Lady Stoneheart, she becomes a vengeful, heartless killer. In the sixth book, I still continue to write her. She is an important character in the set of books. [Keeping her character] is the change I most wish I could make in the [show]".

I searched in the internet and this last interview is from 2017. That year Game of Thrones released (July-Agost) their seventh season. Seriously the biggest change he regret in that moment was still that LS didn't make it to the screen? There are a lot of diversions that seems more important to me...

In my opinion, perhaps George R R Martin created this zombie Cat with a key role in mind. What if she is Nissa Nissa? Or she could be there for other reasons I can't fathom.

Playing devil's advocate, here Martin says:

"Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books. Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you."

Martin is a fan of Tolkien, but he always points how Gandalf's death felt cheap to him when he came back alive and more powerful. Of course LS sends a nice message that death shouldn't be so easy for your characters, but I think he can send the same message using Beric Dondarrion, and It does't look like a major diversion for me.

That's all, sorry if it was very long and excuse any grammatical problems, english is not my first language:)

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I'm very interested in where this story will go with respect to Brienne and Jaime. An enounter with LSH is bound to have a big impact on both of them and where the story goes from there.  They have both sworn oaths to find Arya and Sansa; and Jaime was never supposed to take up arms against her family again. 

She could be a kind of Nissa Nissa character; but I think Melisandre fits that bill.  All it would take to make a fiery sword would be to plunge a valyrian steel blade into a heart that has been bathed in holy fire.  So what will Brienne do if she is forced to execute Jaime?  Perhaps she will plead for his life and offer to take him to the Wall. 

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Welcome, that's a fine 1st post @Queen Nym.  The 1st thought crossed my mind was Oh God, NO NO NO, don't let her be the 1 to return Jon Snow to life.  I hate that idea.  Stoneheart is about revenge, not doing right by Jon Snow.  However the point of Lady Stoneheart has been bandied about quite a bit.  Lots of reasons for this wraith to appear.  Personally, I think she serves or will serve to teach Arya the true meaning of mercy.  Gads, that's almost as bad as the 1st one, but I think it speaks to Arya's side trip to the House of Black and White with punctuation.  The poison pools for the terminally hopeless.  The prohibition of judgement.  The many faces of death.  Paying the price.  There are a lot of moving parts in the Faceless Men story and Arya, with her hard heart may actually mature into the poison pool merciful thinking where the monster who was her mother is concerned.  LSH will no doubt clean house in the Riverlands, perhaps even get North for a little housekeeping, but she cannot kill everyone nor bring her son back to life.  When Arya either gives the order or has to end LSH herself, it should be quite illuminating to our little killing revenge machine.  The real cost of revenge should be apparent to her at that point.  

I am currently listening to the final Brienne chapters from AFFC along with the final Jamie chapter in ADWD, so I'm seeing a lot of LSH just now.  She's pretty mean to Brienne and Thoros sure doesn't like her.  Like to Arya, I think LSH has everything to do with affecting change in Thoros.  This ghastly monster can actually do some good in the awful truth of her return.  

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3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome, that's a fine 1st post @Queen Nym.  The 1st thought crossed my mind was Oh God, NO NO NO, don't let her be the 1 to return Jon Snow to life.  I hate that idea.  Stoneheart is about revenge, not doing right by Jon Snow.

I am curious about why you think having a character be purely about revenge makes for an interesting character? Her bringing Jon Snow back is not so much doing right by him, it is about retaining her humanity and following the last wish of the son and king she loved despite hating the idea of it herself. It is purely about the conflict of the human heart, what grrm loves to write about, and imo makes for a much more interesting character than one who is telegraphed and single minded.

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33 minutes ago, Makk said:

I am curious about why you think having a character be purely about revenge makes for an interesting character? Her bringing Jon Snow back is not so much doing right by him, it is about retaining her humanity and following the last wish of the son and king she loved despite hating the idea of it herself. It is purely about the conflict of the human heart, what grrm loves to write about, and imo makes for a much more interesting character than one who is telegraphed and single minded.

Lady Stoneheart has no humanity.  She is what Arya could end up being if she stays on a diet of revenge.  LSH is a monster.  She's got grief in spades, but no humanity.  Arya may require a step so drastic as to require an intersection with this thing her mother became to remind her of her own humanity.   The character Lady Stoneheart is mildly interesting as all the magic in this world is.  I think this bit I envision with Arya, a living character, is an inspired way to remind Arya of her own heart.  How do you imagine Arya would react to Lady Stoneheart?  Do you think Arya would be all in on this merciless mission of death LSH seems hell bent on?  

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9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Lady Stoneheart has no humanity. 

She may still be very human. and her behaviour is based on the hurt she has suffered. some other people with 'no humanity' just have no feelings.

I think Lady Stoneheart is important in the resurrection game. I think Jaime and Brienne are going to be caught up in this. But in any case, I think Jaime and Brienne are important so whatever happens when they meet her again, makes Lady S important.

 

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Just now, Castellan said:

She may still be very human. and her behaviour is based on the hurt she has suffered. some other people with 'no humanity' just have no feelings.

I think Lady Stoneheart is important in the resurrection game. I think Jaime and Brienne are going to be caught up in this. But in any case, I think Jaime and Brienne are important so whatever happens when they meet her again, makes Lady S important.

 

I'm not smacking your ideas here.  As I read LSH, she is nothing like Cat.  This comes from a reader who rates Catelyn dead last among enjoyable characters.  I think the point is that Lady Stoneheart is not Catelyn Tully.  We've already seen how loyalty to Catelyn serves Brienne and soon we shall see how it serves Jamie.  Remember, she's hanging little boys here.  Catelyn might have been a terrible mom, but she wasn't Cersei by a long shot.  

What does important in the resurrection game mean?  Taken that Thoros, the original kiss of life guy, is in LSH's company, your statement really gets me thinking about why.   

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27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Lady Stoneheart has no humanity.  She is what Arya could end up being if she stays on a diet of revenge.  LSH is a monster.  She's got grief in spades, but no humanity.  Arya may require a step so drastic as to require an intersection with this thing her mother became to remind her of her own humanity.   The character Lady Stoneheart is mildly interesting as all the magic in this world is.  I think this bit I envision with Arya, a living character, is an inspired way to remind Arya of her own heart.  How do you imagine Arya would react to Lady Stoneheart?  Do you think Arya would be all in on this merciless mission of death LSH seems hell bent on?  

I think you are jumping to conclusions about her having no humanity. I would consider grief as part of humanity, along with love and compassion.

We have very little to go on in regards with what Stoneheart is thinking or just how much of Catelyn remains. Personally I think this is the most telling passage.

Quote

A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood.

I think her behavior with Robb's crown clearly indicates she is capable of thought, is pensive, and she has memories although I admit you can bring this to a lot of different conclusions. However the fact she even wanted the crown in the first place is interesting to me. Her eyes glimmering sounds almost as if she is crying.

Arya becoming self reflective upon seeing what her mother has become and comparing herself to that might be interesting, then again it might not. It would effectively be reducing Catelyn to a plot mechanic rather than a character and then giving Arya a pretty straightforward suggestion of what she has become rather than letting Arya's character work that out gradually as she develops.

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2 minutes ago, Makk said:

I think you are jumping to conclusions about her having no humanity. I would consider grief as part of humanity, along with love and compassion.

We have very little to go on in regards with what Stoneheart is thinking or just how much of Catelyn remains. Personally I think this is the most telling passage.

I think her behavior with Robb's crown clearly indicates she is capable of thought, is pensive, and she has memories although I admit you can bring this to a lot of different conclusions. However the fact she even wanted the crown in the first place is interesting to me. Her eyes glimmering sounds almost as if she is crying.

Arya becoming self reflective upon seeing what her mother has become and comparing herself to that might be interesting, then again it might not. It would effectively be reducing Catelyn to a plot mechanic rather than a character and then giving Arya a pretty straightforward suggestion of what she has become rather than letting Arya's character work that out gradually as she develops.

"She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."   AFFC Brienne VII

We do have a direct statement of LSH's wants.  Reads like revenge to me.  

I am not here to argue or change your mind.  I am curious as to what you think LSH is.  Beric was almost exclusively about justice, dying several times in its name.  He himself said he couldn't remember things and people from his life.  He understood he was dead.  LSH was in the river 3 days--too long for a practicing resurrectionist to kiss.  Perhaps we have some lingering loyalty or compassion in Beric Dondarrion, but we get no indication of this from Brienne's chapters. 

That crown twirling is a really interesting point.  I thinks it's creepy as all get out, but I get where you could see the twirling as pensive or commemorative.   Have you ever wondered why she would want Robb's crown and what she plans to do with it?  I still don't see anything good in this without adding Jon Snow to the mix and I simply don't see it.  

Makk, nothing you're saying is without warrant.  I think LSH is precisely a plot mechanic as much as Ser Robert Strong or Biter or any of the truly nasty characters we see come and go.   I will put her on par with Ramsay Bolton.  That isn't to say I disagree with Frey hanging and the whole kick those nasty bastard's asses vibe she exudes.  We don't have a POV from this thing.  It had a POV when it was a noble woman and meaningful part in the story.  She's just a monster now, regardless who she was.  I don't think she's capable of change in this form.  

Arya gets a lot of heat for being quasi-homicidal and it will take something huge for her to get he head screwed on straight.  I would be interested in any option to Arya attaining this end that will be a traumatic as the many things that led her to the HoBaW.  Do you believe that LSH will be known to anyone outside her company as Catelyn Tully?  

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One possibility is fire vs ice magic. Or lady SH was revived by fire and so she is different than wights created by ice. She could also cause some kind of effects to anything created or connected to ice magic.

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3 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

One possibility is fire vs ice magic. Or lady SH was revived by fire and so she is different than wights created by ice. She could also cause some kind of effects to anything created or connected to ice magic.

I also find interesting the fact itself that she's called Lady Stoneheart.

Heart => heart tree => weirwood tree, and as we know weirwood trees morph into stone when dead.
Therefore, to some extent, in "resurrection" she was turned into a "dead" weirwood (that we generally associate with ice magic) by fire magic. It's a very weird combination.

And what about the line of the prophecy "to wake up dragons out of stones"?
Not that she is a dragon, of course. But if prophecies have to be interpreted not literally but metaphorically/symbolically, then maybe the LSH storyline holds some clues, even more so because her story is connected to fire magic.

On the other hand, that of ice magic (but - see above - are they really two separate things?) I am under the impression that the scene of Arya's direwolf - thus Arya herself - finding and speaking to the dead body of Cat may foreshadow not only the resurrection of Cat as LSH, but something else too.

I believe I am alone on this (to my knowledge) but I highly suspect - for many reasons that I won't list here to stay on topic - that wargs and direwolves are somehow connected to the Others and their creation. Those words "rise and hunt with us" to me look like the sort of connection that there might be between Others and Whites. And if so, the relationship between Nymeria (thus Arya) and her pack may hint to the same thing. 

Edited by lalt

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I completely agree with you in that @Curled Finger: LS will show Arya what it's the true meaning of mercy (there are a lot of hints that point to that in the books, and personally I feel Arya has unresolved issues with her mother, and she indirectly caused the resurrection of her mother: also I believe LS will meet at least one of her daughters). But in my point of view, that's one of the reasons, not the most relevant one.

LS not only took back Robb's crown, she is activately looking for her daughter Arya: it's likely she wants to name Arya Robb's heir. Robb's will is pretty interesting to me: Robb named Jon his heir against his mother's wishes, or he put conditions to Jon being KITN? like: he will inherit only if Bran, Rickon, Arya are dead? Sansa was disinherited for sure, and Rickon and Bran were believed dead, so perhaps he put Arya (in case she appeared alive) before Jon in the will to appease Cat. I believe he named Jon directly his heir, but who knows :P

LS could give Arya Robb's crown, and Arya after refusing to be queen, could give the crown to Jon after their reunion (perhaps that is her role in the story?) 

 

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@laltI also thought there could be a connection between LS and that part of the prophecy "to wake dragons from the stone" cause that name Lady Stoneheart... We know George usually chooses meaningful name for his characters (Sansa means "praise, charm", Catelyn "pure", Eddard comes from Edward  "guardian, protector" ,Jon (gift of Jehovah) or Robert (glory, fame).

But even if "from the stone" is related to LS, I don't know how could fit "wake dragons" with her:huh:

"Rise and hunt with us" I believe it shows how Arya "commanded" her mother to wake up after Nymeria retrieved the body from the water (Arya indirectly caused LS's creation) and it could even be because of her that Beric gave his life to bring back to life Catelyn (remember Beric promised Arya to reunite her with her mother: Arya didn't believe him so he promised for his knight's honour he would make everything in his hand to fulfill his promise). This will result in Arya feeling responsible for her mother being a "zombie" that can't even rest in peace. 

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7 hours ago, lalt said:

 

I also find interesting the fact itself that she's called Lady Stoneheart.

Heart => heart tree => weirwood tree, and as we know weirwood trees morph into stone when dead.
Therefore, to some extent, in "resurrection" she was turned into a "dead" weirwood (that we generally associate with ice magic) by fire magic. It's a very weird combination.

And what about the line of the prophecy "to wake up dragons out of stones"?
Not that she is a dragon, of course. But if prophecies have to be interpreted not literally but metaphorically/symbolically, then maybe the LSH storyline holds some clues, even more so because her story is connected to fire magic.

On the other hand, that of ice magic (but - see above - are they really two separate things?) I am under the impression that the scene of Arya's direwolf - thus Arya herself - finding and speaking to the dead body of Cat may foreshadow not only the resurrection of Cat as LSH, but something else too.

I believe I am alone on this (to my knowledge) but I highly suspect - for many reasons that I won't list here to stay on topic - that wargs and direwolves are somehow connected to the Others and their creation. Those words "rise and hunt with us" to me look like the sort of connection that there might be between Others and Whites. And if so, the relationship between Nymeria (thus Arya) and her pack may hint to the same thing. 

That's flat fascinating.  While I can't recall any specific mention of wargs or direwolves being connected to the Others, I think many of us take that as a matter of fact.  Take the Starks and their magic.  They had to conquer so many magical families.  (I still wonder if the magic was inherent or something 1st Men were awarded after migrating.)  The World Book mentions 4 kings in the North, but remains very sketchy on the powers and identities.  X were Warg Kings, Boltons were Red Kings, but we have no idea what that brand of magic is.  Marsh and Barrows Kings is at least more obvious.  That's some real power just in what we do know.  

I don't know about all this prophecy.  Some seems specific to areas or families, like TPTWP or Azor Ahai.  We've got legends in the North, closer to the Others, but does that tie into the big prophecy?  I think it could.  Your deconstruction of the name Stoneheart is very telling.   What would an ice representative look like if fire gave it new life.  Really nice. Wonder how this ties in, if it does, to the weirwood at Raventree? 

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3 hours ago, Queen Nym said:

I completely agree with you in that @Curled Finger: LS will show Arya what it's the true meaning of mercy (there are a lot of hints that point to that in the books, and personally I feel Arya has unresolved issues with her mother, and she indirectly caused the resurrection of her mother: also I believe LS will meet at least one of her daughters). But in my point of view, that's one of the reasons, not the most relevant one.

LS not only took back Robb's crown, she is activately looking for her daughter Arya: it's likely she wants to name Arya Robb's heir. Robb's will is pretty interesting to me: Robb named Jon his heir against his mother's wishes, or he put conditions to Jon being KITN? like: he will inherit only if Bran, Rickon, Arya are dead? Sansa was disinherited for sure, and Rickon and Bran were believed dead, so perhaps he put Arya (in case she appeared alive) before Jon in the will to appease Cat. I believe he named Jon directly his heir, but who knows :P

LS could give Arya Robb's crown, and Arya after refusing to be queen, could give the crown to Jon after their reunion (perhaps that is her role in the story?) 

 

Thankee for the show of support.  I'm not sure the crown actually means anything.   That's not to say it doesn't, I just don't see any indication it does.  We see Jeyne's crown, too so something is here in these crowns.   Must be my limited imagination.   Robb's crown, at least, was supposed to symbolize or replicate the Kings of Winter crown.  Perhaps the crown represents something very different to LSH.  As I have said, I don't see any human compassion at all in the revenant LSH.  It could be for Jon in the end and in a circumvented sort of way, but would he wear it?  

Great conversation.  

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Thanks for this discussion about Lady Stoneheart and the heart trees. Does anyone think that the heart trees are not about valentines, and that the blood sacrifices may have included, well, feeding it human hearts? Real hearts. 
 

Just for fun I looked up weir for weir wood. Weir means a dam basically. It’s designed to regulate the flow of water from a river, or a fish trap!
 

I believe Aryas role was changed greatly in the show. LSH was eliminated. The last minute intervention of Sandor Clegane to change Arya didn’t seem very plausible. It seems to me that there will be major chapters between Arya and LSH involving revenge.

 


 

 

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15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Catelyn might have been a terrible mom, but she wasn't Cersei by a long shot.  

14 hours ago, Makk said:

I think her behavior with Robb's crown clearly indicates she is capable of thought, is pensive, and she has memories although I admit you can bring this to a lot of different conclusions. However the fact she even wanted the crown in the first place is interesting to me.

The Mother Parallel / Reborn as Crones?

Catelyn and Cersei are different in many ways, but I think GRRM has set up both of them as Mother figures and, more specifically, as queen mothers of monsters. Who else do we know who is the mother of monsters? That would be Dany, mother of dragons. I think we are supposed to compare them and to learn things about them from the comparison.

Catelyn has her throat cut and is thrown into the Green Fork at The Twins. She is pulled out of the river by the direwolf Nymeria and revived as Lady Stoneheart by Ser Beric Dondarrion.

Cersei has her hair cut and is thrown into the dungeon at Baelor's Sept. She is released from the dungeon and introduced to Ser Robert Strong, who gathers her up in his arms as if she were a newborn baby.

Both of these rebirth situations are foreshadowed in King Robert's dialogue with Ned in the crypt at Winterfell:

Quote

"And the girls, Ned!" he exclaimed, his eyes sparkling. "I swear, women lose all modesty in the heat. They swim naked in the river, right beneath the castle. Even in the streets, it's too damn hot for wool or fur, so they go around in these short gowns, silk if they have the silver and cotton if not, but it's all the same when they start sweating and the cloth sticks to their skin, they might as well be naked." The king laughed happily.

AGoT, Eddard I

We know that Cersei tore up a rough gown provided to her in the dungeon by he silent sisters.

Rebirth / Death of a Hand

The Stoneheart transformation is also foreshadowed in the statue and waterfall of Alyssa Arryn at The Eyrie. This legendary figure was fated to mourn the slaughter of her family until her tears reach the valley floor. The waterfall turns to mist or snow long before it reaches the valley, however. The statue is instrumental in defeating "ever my lord husband's good right hand," Ser Vardis Egen, chosen by Lysa Arryn as champion to fight Bronn, serving as Tyrion's champion.

The defeat of Jon Arryn's "good right hand" could foreshadow Cersei / Joffrey defeating The Hand of the King (Ned Stark) and / or the amputation of Jaime Lannister's good right hand. In other words, both Catelyn and Cersei (and Lysa) have "husbands" who lose their hands in violent ways.

I suspect Cersei's rebirth / transformation is not entirely derived from her imprisonment by the High Sparrow. When Tywin dies, Cersei takes on the role of the power behind the throne. There is a key scene where she tells off Pycelle, who would like to continue serving her and House Lannister. Instead, she climbs the serpentine steps with Qyburn (or is it the drawbridge to Maegor's Holdfast? Both key crossing points in the Red Keep), who seems to represent dark magic (and who may have kept Jaime's severed right hand).

Ser Beric may be a symbolic Ned. He and the others of the Brotherhood without Banners (BwB) profess loyalty to King Robert, who has long since died. Ser Beric was betrothed to a Dayne: a similar rumor has stuck to a mysterious interval in Ned's past. Ser Beric is a dead guy who kisses Catelyn, restoring her to life. Ned is the only other person we know who kissed Catelyn - Doh! Except Littlefinger, but that is a story for another day.

Two of the BwB members won contests in the Hand's Tourney - the tournament Robert ordered to honor Ned's assumption of the title of Hand of the King. Anguy wins the archery and Thoros of Myr wins the melee. These men split off from the BwB after Lady Stoneheart takes over the leadership role held by Ser Beric, however. Since they are closely associated with the Ned symbolism (as victors in his tourney), I suspect they may play key roles later in resolving the Lady Stoneheart plot line.

Birth of a Champion

Cersei wants Jaime to be her champion and exhorts him (through Qyburn) to return to King's Landing. We know that Jaime chooses not to act on her plea. Instead, Qyburn transforms the body of Ser Gregor Clegane to create a super-king's guard, the headless monster known as Ser Robert Strong. So. Much. Symbolism:

  • Qyburn cured Jaime after his hand was cut off. Qyburn cured Ser Gregor after his head was cut off.
  • Gregor Clegane killed baby Aegon Targaryen. (Catelyn killed Aegon "Jinglebell" Frey.)
  • I believe Gregor Clegane is a parallel to the Green Grace. "Green Grace" in ASOIAF implies Green King, as "Your Grace" is a form of address for royalty.
  • Robert Baratheon also seems to have some characteristics of the fertility legend and Green King, Garth Greenhands. So the parallel may be strengthened if Ser Gregor's Green Grace connection is correct.
  • Ser Gregor was also an important extension of Tywin's power, acting on his orders to advance Lannister interests.
  • "Ser Robert" is an allusion to Robert Baratheon, who was a hunky warrior before he became king.
  • "Strong," translated into German, would be "stark."
  • Some of the "ingredients" for Ser Robert Strong include Cersei's handmaid, her friend Falyse Stokeworth and some puppeteers who acted out a story of lions devouring their own subjects as well as a stag, but who are eventually defeated by a dragon.
  • Ser Gregor was knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen. I can't recall another person we know of who was knighted by Rhaegar.
  • Ser Gregor was The Mountain that Rides. Dany's baby was going to be The Stallion that Mounts the World. There may be a yin-yang relationship between these two symbolic titles.

It would seem that Cersei's champion contains elements of Jaime, Robert, Ned, Tywin and Rhaegar. If the surmise is correct that ASOIAF characters take on some of the powers of people they kill, the champion also embodies baby Aegon (because Ser Gregor killed him), House Stokeworth, and Cersei's "hand" (-maid) as well as the insolent, treasonous puppeteers. Then add in some of the mojo of Dany's baby.

It's almost as if there is an entire brotherhood embodied by one badass headless dude. So Stoneheart inherits the Brotherhood without Banners and Cersei takes control of Ser Robert Strong.

A Daughter's Role

I see a number of comments here have speculated that Arya will play a key role in resolving Stoneheart's story line. We already saw "Arya" play a role in transforming Catelyn, as it was Arya's direwolf that pulled Catelyn's body from the river, enabling her to become Lady Stoneheart. In a similar (I believe) incident, Arya freed three men in a cage who were about to die in a fire - Rorge, Biter and Jaqen. Brienne had to go to a lot of trouble to clean up the "should have died" problems that Arya created by releasing these monsters - and she has only addressed two of them as Jaqen's current situation is unconfirmed. If we had to pick one at this point, I lean more toward Sansa as the daughter who will play a key role for Catelyn / Stoneheart.

  • We had a detailed account of Catelyn ascending to the Eyrie but no description of her descent. We have little or no reference to Sansa / Alayne climbing the mountain to the Eyrie, but a lengthy description of her descent. If Alyssa's tears have to reach the valley to resolve her grief, Sansa's successful descent seems significant. (Lysa's descent from the mountain is also described.)
  • Sansa has a key scene restoring Winterfell near the toppled statue of Alyssa. (Catelyn is closely associated with the castle as she travels with Rodrik Cassell - I believe House Cassell symbolically represents the castle of Winterfell. Later, Lady Stoneheart is closely associated with Harwin, son of the master of horses at Winterfell. Keep the horses / whores in mind because we are going to examine the crown worn by the Queen o' Whores in a moment.) 
  • Littlefinger loved Catelyn and, apparently, he loves Sansa / Alayne. He cajoles Alayne into kissing him more passionately than she would choose to do on her own.
  • Catelyn and Sansa have similar auburn hair. Lysa's beautiful hair is the only part of her that is not spoiled after she loses her beauty in middle age. Catelyn's last words are, "Don't cut my hair; Ned loves my hair." Sansa/Alayne wears Lysa's clothes and takes on a maternal role toward Robert "Sweetrobin" Arryn (who was supposed to be fostered by Tywin).

But I have also seen Brienne as a symbolic daughter of Catelyn or, at least, a sister of Sansa and Arya. Based on Brienne killing Rorge and Biter, two of the monsters unleashed by Arya, it would not surprise me at all if Brienne ends up killing Lady Stoneheart.

Queen of Whores

The crown that Lady Stoneheart handles within the Hollow Hill appears to be the crown made at Riverrun and worn by Robb Stark. (Catelyn described him wearing it and noted that it did not fit him.)

In the previous scene were we saw that bronze circlet with nine swords, it was worn by a prostitute who is in the company of Ryman Frey, heir to the Twins.

I believe House Frey is a parallel to House Lannister - both use marriage to create alliances; both are headed by tyrants who boss around their family members; both have ambitions to marry into higher classes of nobility or royalty; both wait to take sides and will switch sides in a war if they see a way to advance the interests of their Houses. Lord Walder Frey rules a castle called The Twins and Tywin has two important children who are twins.

When the crowned prostitute tells Jaime that Ryman Frey has made her Queen o' Whores, Jaime tells her that that title belongs to his sister. Jaime then "deposes" Ser Ryman and, symbolically, awards his "throne" to his son, Edwyn Frey. We soon learn that Ryman has been hanged by outlaws (could be BwB?) or by another ambitious Frey, Black Walder.

Horse / whores wordplay?

In the wonderful world of literary analysis, Jaime is saying that Queen o' Whores crown belongs to Cersei, and he orders Ryman's whore to leave it when he departs. But the crown apparently goes to Lady Stoneheart, perhaps with the assistance of Tom of Sevenstreams who is a BwB man but seems to have infiltrated Ryman's camp at Riverrun, as singers are known to do.

So the crown and the Queen o' whores title are other important parallels between Lady Stoneheart and the post-Jaime Cersei.

It occurs to me that the crown with the swords is similar to the dragon skulls in the lower levels of the Red Keep - Arya steps through the open jaw of the biggest skull which is still surrounded by dragon teeth. In an analysis of black diamonds somewhere in this forum, I found that they are compared to dragon teeth and are most often associated with Lannisters: Cersei, Joffrey and Myrcella, to be precise. Since crowning someone often leads to their downfall, it may be that Cersei's hubris in wearing black diamonds (or dressing her children in black diamonds) foreshadows bad outcomes for them. Similarly, the crowning notion did not end in the way that Robb Stark desired.

Interestingly, besides Arya, Tyrion and Shea are the other characters who venture to interact with the dragon skulls. They seem to be successful in their visit to the chamber. (I believe this is because Shea is a character who has the power to transcend certain barriers and she sees Tyrion as a worthy mortal to benefit from her powers. But that is also a story for another thread.)

Note: Robb had a similar crown made for his queen, Jeyne Westerling. Jeyne's mother has to wrestle the crown from Jeyne after Robb's death, leaving a cut on Jeyne's forehead. This could be a symbolic "open your third eye" situation for Jeyne. If Jeyne is a fourth "Queen o' Whores" because of her crown, she may also play a role in the eventual resolution of Lady Stoneheart or Cersei's story arcs.

Edited by Seams

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14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Lady Stoneheart has no humanity.  She is what Arya could end up being if she stays on a diet of revenge.  LSH is a monster.  She's got grief in spades, but no humanity.

I have to strongly disagree with you here. Vengeance is just as human an emotion as love, and just as personal.

First and foremost, vengeance is part of Cat's character, and the road for her to get there was much of her arch. Perhaps the line between a Cat and a Cersei, both loving mothers, isn't as stark as one might suspect.

Cat jumps to conclusions and wrongly abducts Tyrion on the King's Road, using an authority that was not hers to break the peace, and starts the War of Five Kings. 

As it turns out, I think Beric is very much a part of this same arch, the difference between justice and vengeance.

Quote

"Vengeance?" Ned said. "I thought we were speaking of justice. Burning Clegane's fields and slaughtering his people will not restore the king's peace, only your injured pride." He glanced away before the young knight could voice his outraged protest, and addressed the villagers. "People of Sherrer, I cannot give you back your homes or your crops, nor can I restore your dead to life. But perhaps I can give you some small measure of justice, in the name of our king, Robert."

It is Cat's abduction of Tyrion that causes Tywin to send Clegane to rape and pillage the Riverlands, and in turn which causes Ned to send Beric after him. Ned sends Beric exactly because it wouldn't be personal vengeance.

Quote

Ned could not let that happen again. The realm could not withstand a second mad king, another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children.

Unfortunately for Ned, we clearly see another dance of blood and vengeance, and this is the crux of Cat's arch for the rest of her story so far.

Quote

"Your grief is mine, Cat," he said when they broke apart. "When we heard about Lord Eddard … the Lannisters will pay, I swear it, you will have your vengeance."
"Will that bring Ned back to me?" she said sharply. The wound was still too fresh for softer words. She could not think about Ned now. She would not. It would not do. She had to be strong. "All that will keep. I must see Father."

And, at first, Cat seems to be the staunch advocate for peace, mercy, and wanting to see an end to the bloodshed.

But, it is a thin veneer at best, and mostly seems to be based on wild hopes of saving her own children.

Quote

"You are a woman, my lady," the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. "Women do not understand these things."
"You are the gentle sex," said Lord Karstark, with the lines of grief fresh on his face. "A man has a need for vengeance."
"Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be," Catelyn replied. "Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy … but I understand futility. We went to war when Lannister armies were ravaging the riverlands, and Ned was a prisoner, falsely accused of treason. We fought to defend ourselves, and to win my lord's freedom.

Cat makes a seemingly legitimate effort to end the war here, coming close to getting the gathered lords to listening, but instead it results in Rob being crowned King in the North. But she begins, honestly, by admitting she would take vengeance on Cersei given the chance.

The parallel between Cat and Lord Karstark should also not be ignored in this conversation. Cat lets Jaime go in a desperate attempt to help her daughters.

Quote

"I had five children. Now I have three."
"Aye, my lady." Lord Rickard Karstark pushed past the Greatjon, like some grim specter with his black mail and long ragged grey beard, his narrow face pinched and cold. "And I have one son, who once had three. You have robbed me of my vengeance."
Catelyn faced him calmly. "Lord Rickard, the Kingslayer's dying would not have bought life for your children. His living may buy life for mine."
The lord was unappeased. "Jaime Lannister has played you for a fool. You've bought a bag of empty words, no more. My Torrhen and my Eddard deserved better of you."

So again, while Cat seems to be a proponent of peace here, it is really about her personal situation, something she herself realizes.

Quote

"It was no murder, ser," said Lord Rickard Karstark, no more discomfited by the ropes about his wrists than by the blood that trickled down his face. "Any man who steps between a father and his vengeance asks for death."
His words rang against Catelyn's ears, harsh and cruel as the pounding of a war drum. Her throat was dry as bone. I did this. These two boys died so my daughters might live.
"I saw your sons die, that night in the Whispering Wood," Robb told Lord Karstark. "Tion Frey did not kill Torrhen. Willem Lannister did not slay Eddard. How then can you call this vengeance? This was folly, and bloody murder. Your sons died honorably on a battlefield, with swords in their hands."
"They died," said Rickard Karstark, yielding no inch of ground. "The Kingslayer cut them down. These two were of his ilk. Only blood can pay for blood."

When it is Cat's sons who have died she suddenly changes approach entirely.

Quote

From the way Robb looked at her, she could tell that it had been a long while since anyone had dared speak to him so bluntly. "When they told me Winterfell had fallen, I wanted to go north at once," he said, with a hint of defensiveness. "I wanted to free Bran and Rickon, but I thought . . . I never dreamed that Theon could harm them, truly. If I had . . ."
"It is too late for ifs, and too late for rescues," Catelyn said. "All that remains is vengeance."

And this brings us to the Red Wedding.

Where we see Cat's last act is one of petty vengeance, worried about her word and her honor, it is entirely personal, and entirely human.

Quote

Boom, the drum sounded, boom doom boom doom. The old man's lips went in and out. The knife trembled in Catelyn's hand, slippery with sweat. "A son for a son, heh," he repeated. "But that's a grandson . . . and he never was much use."
A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.
Robb had broken his word, but Catelyn kept hers. She tugged hard on Aegon's hair and sawed at his neck until the blade grated on bone. Blood ran hot over her fingers. His little bells were ringing, ringing, ringing, and the drum went boom doom boom.

...

"On my honor as a Tully," she told Lord Walder, "on my honor as a Stark, I will trade your boy's life for Robb's. A son for a son." Her hand shook so badly she was ringing Jinglebell's head.
Boom, the drum sounded, boom doom boom doom. The old man's lips went in and out. The knife trembled in Catelyn's hand, slippery with sweat. "A son for a son, heh," he repeated. "But that's a grandson . . . and he never was much use."
A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

And the saddest sound was the little bells. Which is again highlighted in the epilogue.

Quote

"Not murder." His voice was shrill. "It was vengeance, we had a right to our vengeance. It was war. Aegon, we called him Jinglebell, a poor lackwit never hurt anyone, Lady Stark cut his throat. 

And now Cat has come back, less human perhaps, and full of hate and vengeance, but those are as human as any quality can be.

Vengeance cannot be justice because it is personal.

This is not the same as Beric, who also may have forgotten things and become a little less human with each death, but never lost his sense of justice.

Quote

"That turned the whole world on its head. We'd been sent out by the King's Hand to deal with outlaws, you see, but now we were the outlaws, and Lord Tywin was the Hand of the King. There was some wanted to yield then, but Lord Beric wouldn't hear of it. We were still king's men, he said, and these were the king's people the lions were savaging. If we could not fight for Robert, we would fight for them, until every man of us was dead. And so we did, but as we fought something queer happened. For every man we lost, two showed up to take his place. A few were knights or squires, of gentle birth, but most were common men—fieldhands and fiddlers and innkeeps, servants and shoemakers, even two septons. Men of all sorts, and women too, children, dogs . . ."

Beric was about the cause, not the man.

We do see from Arya that Beric is still able to make jokes about being killed by Cleganes three times, so I can't believe his humanity is entirely gone. As much as I think love and hate are human, humor is doubly so!

In conclusion, I guess the point of this rambling was that Lady Stoneheart may have lost parts of herself and memories of Cat, the vengeance and hate were already there and are entirely human and part of her character from the start. In fact it seems to be the crux of her story arc.

Edited by Mourning Star
wrong starting quote, grammar

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20 minutes ago, Seams said:

The Mother Parallel / Reborn as Crones?

Catelyn and Cersei are different in many ways, but I think GRRM has set up both of them as Mother figures and, more specifically, as queen mothers of monsters. Who else do we know who is the mother of monsters? That would be Dany, mother of dragons. I think we are supposed to compare them and to learn things about them from the comparison.

Catelyn has her throat cut and is thrown into the Green Fork at The Twins. She is pulled out of the river by the direwolf Nymeria and revived as Lady Stoneheart by Ser Beric Dondarrion.

Cersei has her hair cut and is thrown into the dungeon at Baelor's Sept. She is released from the dungeon and introduced to Ser Robert Strong, who gathers her up in his arms as if she were a newborn baby.

Both of these rebirth situations are foreshadowed in King Robert's dialogue with Ned in the crypt at Winterfell:

We know that Cersei tore up a rough gown provided to her in the dungeon by he silent sisters.

Rebirth / Death of a Hand

The Stoneheart transformation is also foreshadowed in the statue and waterfall of Alyssa Arryn at The Eyrie. This legendary figure was fated to mourn the slaughter of her family until her tears reach the valley floor. The waterfall turns to mist or snow long before it reaches the valley, however. The statue is instrumental in defeating "ever my lord husband's good right hand," Ser Vardis Egen, chosen by Lysa Arryn as champion to fight Bronn, serving as Tyrion's champion.

The defeat of Jon Arryn's "good right hand" could foreshadow Cersei / Joffrey defeating The Hand of the King (Ned Stark) and / or the amputation of Jaime Lannister's good right hand. In other words, both Catelyn and Cersei (and Lysa) have "husbands" who lose their hands in violent ways.

I suspect Cersei's rebirth / transformation is not entirely derived from her imprisonment by the High Sparrow. When Tywin dies, Cersei takes on the role of the power behind the throne. There is a key scene where she tells off Pycelle, who would like to continue serving her and House Lannister. Instead, she climbs the serpentine steps with Qyburn (or is it the drawbridge to Maegor's Holdfast? Both key crossing points in the Red Keep), who seems to represent dark magic (and who may have kept Jaime's severed right hand).

Ser Beric may be a symbolic Ned. He and the others of the Brotherhood without Banners (BwB) profess loyalty to King Robert, who has long since died. Ser Beric was betrothed to a Dayne: a similar rumor has stuck to a mysterious interval in Ned's past. Ser Beric is a dead guy who kisses Catelyn, restoring her to life. Ned is the only other person we know who kissed Catelyn - Doh! Except Littlefinger, but that is a story for another day.

Two of the BwB members won contests in the Hand's Tourney - the tournament Robert ordered to honor Ned's assumption of the title of Hand of the King. Anguy wins the archery and Thoros of Myr wins the melee. These men split off from the BwB after Lady Stoneheart takes over the leadership role held by Ser Beric, however. Since they are closely associated with the Ned symbolism (as victors in his tourney), I suspect they may play key roles later in resolving the Lady Stoneheart plot line.

Birth of a Champion

Cersei wants Jaime to be her champion and exhorts him (through Qyburn) to return to King's Landing. We know that Jaime chooses not to act on her plea. Instead, Qyburn transforms the body of Ser Gregor Clegane to create a super-king's guard, the headless monster known as Ser Robert Strong. So. Much. Symbolism:

  • Qyburn cured Jaime after his hand was cut off. Qyburn cured Ser Gregor after his head was cut off.
  • Gregor Clegane killed baby Aegon Targaryen. (Catelyn killed Aegon "Jinglebell" Frey.)
  • I believe Gregor Clegane is a parallel to the Green Grace. "Green Grace" in ASOIAF implies Green King, as "Your Grace" is a form of address for royalty.
  • Robert Baratheon also seems to have some characteristics of the fertility legend and Green King, Garth Greenhands. So the parallel may be strengthened if Ser Gregor's Green Grace connection is correct.
  • Ser Gregor was also an important extension of Tywin's power, acting on his orders to advance Lannister interests.
  • "Ser Robert" is an allusion to Robert Baratheon, who was a hunky warrior before he became king.
  • "Strong," translated into German, would be "stark."
  • Some of the "ingredients" for Ser Robert Strong include Cersei's handmaid, her friend Falyse Stokeworth and some puppeteers who acted out a story of lions devouring their own subjects as well as a stag, but who are eventually defeated by a dragon.
  • Ser Gregor was knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen. I can't recall another person we know of who was knighted by Rhaegar.
  • Ser Gregor was The Mountain that Rides. Dany's baby was going to be The Stallion that Mounts the World. There may be a yin-yang relationship between these two symbolic titles.

It would seem that Cersei's champion contains elements of Jaime, Robert, Ned, Tywin and Rhaegar. If the surmise is correct that ASOIAF characters take on some of the powers of people they kill, the champion also embodies baby Aegon (because Ser Gregor killed him), House Stokeworth, and Cersei's "hand" (-maid) as well as the insolent, treasonous puppeteers. Then add in some of the mojo of Dany's baby.

It's almost as if there is an entire brotherhood embodied by one badass headless dude. So Stoneheart inherits the Brotherhood without Banners and Cersei takes control of Ser Robert Strong.

A Daughter's Role

I see a number of comments here have speculated that Arya will play a key role in resolving Stoneheart's story line. We already saw "Arya" play a role in transforming Catelyn, as it was Arya's direwolf that pulled Catelyn's body from the river, enabling her to become Lady Stoneheart. In a similar (I believe) incident, Arya freed three men in a cage who were about to die in a fire - Rorge, Biter and Jaqen. Brienne had to go to a lot of trouble to clean up the "should have died" problems that Arya created by releasing these monsters - and she has only addressed two of them as Jaqen's current situation is unconfirmed. If we had to pick one at this point, I lean more toward Sansa as the daughter who will play a key role for Catelyn / Stoneheart.

  • We had a detailed account of Catelyn ascending to the Eyrie but no description of her descent. We have little or no reference to Sansa / Alayne climbing the mountain to the Eyrie, but a lengthy description of her descent. If Alyssa's tears have to reach the valley to resolve her grief, Sansa's successful descent seems significant. (Lysa's descent from the mountain is also described.)
  • Sansa has a key scene restoring Winterfell near the toppled statue of Alyssa. (Catelyn is closely associated with the castle as she travels with Rodrik Cassell - I believe House Cassell symbolically represents the castle of Winterfell. Later, Lady Stoneheart is closely associated with Harwin, son of the master of horses at Winterfell. Keep the horses in mind because we are going to examine the crown worn by the Queen or Whores in a moment.) 
  • Littlefinger loved Catelyn and, apparently, he loves Sansa / Alayne. He cajoles Alayne into kissing him more passionately than she would choose to do on her own.
  • Catelyn and Sansa have similar auburn hair. Lysa's beautiful hair is the only part of her that is not spoiled after she loses her beauty in middle age. Catelyn's last words are, "Don't cut my hair; Ned loves my hair." Sansa/Alayne wears Lysa's clothes and takes on a maternal role toward Robert "Sweetrobin" Arryn (who was supposed to be fostered by Tywin).

But I have also seen Brienne as a symbolic daughter of Catelyn or, at least, a sister of Sansa and Arya. Based on Brienne killing Rorge and Biter, two of the monsters unleashed by Arya, it would not surprise me at all if Brienne ends up killing Lady Stoneheart.

Queen of Whores

The crown that Lady Stoneheart handles within the Hollow Hill appears to be the crown made at Riverrun and worn by Robb Stark. (Catelyn described him wearing it and noted that it did not fit him.)

In the previous scene were we saw that bronze circlet with nine swords, it was worn by a prostitute who is in the company of Ryman Frey, heir to the Twins.

I believe House Frey is a parallel to House Lannister - both use marriage to create alliances; both are headed by tyrants who boss around their family members; both have ambitions to marry into higher classes of nobility or royalty; both wait to take sides and will switch sides in a war if they see a way to advance the interests of their Houses. Lord Walder Frey rules a castle called The Twins and Tywin has two important children who are twins.

When the crowned prostitute tells Jaime that Ryman Frey has made her Queen o' Whores, Jaime tells her that that title belongs to his sister. Jaime then "deposes" Ser Ryman and, symbolically, awards his "throne" to his son, Edwyn Frey. We soon learn that Ryman has been hanged by outlaws (could be BwB?) or by another ambitious Frey, Black Walder.

Horse / whores wordplay?

In the wonderful world of literary analysis, Jaime is saying that Queen o' Whores crown belongs to Cersei, and he orders Ryman's whore to leave it when he departs. But the crown apparently goes to Lady Stoneheart, perhaps with the assistance of Tom of Sevenstreams who is a BwB man but seems to have infiltrated Ryman's camp at Riverrun, as singers are known to do.

So the crown and the Queen o' whores title are other important parallels between Lady Stoneheart and the post-Jaime Cersei.

It occurs to me that the crown with the swords is similar to the dragon skulls in the lower levels of the Red Keep - Arya steps through the open jaw of the biggest skull which is still surrounded by dragon teeth. In an analysis of black diamonds somewhere in this forum, I found that they are compared to dragon teeth and are most often associated with Lannisters: Cersei, Joffrey and Myrcella, to be precise. Since crowning someone often leads to their downfall, it may be that Cersei's hubris in wearing black diamonds (or dressing her children in black diamonds) foreshadows bad outcomes for them. Similarly, the crowning notion did not end in the way that Robb Stark desired.

Interestingly, besides Arya, Tyrion and Shea are the other characters who venture to interact with the dragon skulls. They seem to be successful in their visit to the chamber. (I believe this is because Shea is a character who has the power to transcend certain barriers and she sees Tyrion as a worthy mortal to benefit from her powers. But that is also a story for another thread.)

Note: Robb had a similar crown made for his queen, Jeyne Westerling. Jeyne's mother has to wrestle the crown from Jeyne after Robb's death, leaving a cut on Jeyne's forehead. This could be a symbolic "open your third eye" situation for Jeyne. If Jeyne is a fourth "Queen o' Whores" because of her crown, she may also play a role in the eventual resolution of Lady Stoneheart or Cersei's story arcs.

Wow Seams, thanks.  It has crossed my mind that Beric was a sort of Ned on a smaller scale in life and of course, much larger in death.  While I could not pretend to grasp all you've brought in here, some points you make are brilliant, even to me.  I want to hone in on 1 small comment, though as it seems you and I hold the same impression of this crown and I have been told by much brighter readers that we are wrong.  Catelyn has Robb's crown in her possession, not Jeyne's.   It was Jeyne's crown Jamie confiscated from Pia, no?  But we don't see Robb's crown though it could have been gathered up at any point since the Red Wedding.   So why do we see Jeyne's crown if Lady Stoneheart has Robb's?  I am trying to separate the 2 ideas about this crown, but it actually does my head some good to know that you also perceive LSH's crown as Jeyne's.  

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8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Catelyn has Robb's crown in her possession, not Jeyne's.   It was Jeyne's crown Jamie confiscated from Pia, no?  But we don't see Robb's crown though it could have been gathered up at any point since the Red Wedding.   So why do we see Jeyne's crown if Lady Stoneheart has Robb's?  I am trying to separate the 2 ideas about this crown, but it actually does my head some good to know that you also perceive LSH's crown as Jeyne's.  

Sorry, something may have been lost in my gigantic post.

Robb had a similar crown made for Jeyne: a bronze circlet with swords. I don't think Lady Stoneheart has Jeyne's crown, as we know that Sybell Spicer (Lady Westerling) took that crown from Jeyne.

As you say at one point, Catelyn seems to have Robb's crown in the hollow hill.

I don't think Pia has Jeyne's crown.

When I say that Jeyne could be a fourth Queen o' Whores, I was deriving this from the similar, separate crown Robb gave her, not from the crown we see in Lady Stoneheart's hands.

I'm a little confused by some of your other questions, but maybe I have just forgotten some of the details. Or it may be another situation where GRRM is deliberately vague about who has which crown - along with the original sword Ice, the original crown of the Kings of Winter / Kings in the North was lost at some point. The author sometimes gives us a "reborn" sword or crown or character when it is convenient to be inexact about some detail.

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