Jump to content

Why I think Lady Stoneheart is much more important than we imagine


Queen Nym

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

You're wasting your sympathy on Tyrion - he's all about vengeance:

And that's just AGOT!

Two wrongs do not make a right, but I try to sympathize with all characters.

This is not a defense of Tyrion, it is an assessment of Cat's arc from GoT through becoming Lady Stoneheart.

The contrast between justice and vengeance is an important part of that, if not the very crux of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

This is not a defense of Tyrion, it is an assessment of Cat's arc from GoT through becoming Lady Stoneheart.

Being over-generous to Tyrion is being unjust to Cat. You see him as an innocent man, but it's more realistic for Cat to see him as a dangerous man. Part of the family firm. And what a family! Lysa says the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn; and Cat has already deduced that Jaime and Cersei tossed Bran out of that window - that attack was followed up by an assassin she had to fight off with her bare hands; and finally LF identifies the dagger as Tyrion's.

Lannisters are dangerous, and Cat is scared. That's why she tried to stay anonymous in KL, and on the road and in the inn, and why she wanted to stay out of Tyrion's sight. Because she was afraid.

She's not all wrong about Tyrion. He is dangerous; as we know. And he stays loyal to Jaime even after he works out what happened to Bran - not a flicker of disgust or rejection in him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Being over-generous to Tyrion is being unjust to Cat. You see him as an innocent man, but it's more realistic for Cat to see him as a dangerous man. Part of the family firm. And what a family! Lysa says the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn; and Cat has already deduced that Jaime and Cersei tossed Bran out of that window - that attack was followed up by an assassin she had to fight off with her bare hands; and finally LF identifies the dagger as Tyrion's.

Lannisters are dangerous, and Cat is scared. That's why she tried to stay anonymous in KL, and on the road and in the inn, and why she wanted to stay out of Tyrion's sight. Because she was afraid.

She's not all wrong about Tyrion. He is dangerous; as we know. And he stays loyal to Jaime even after he works out what happened to Bran - not a flicker of disgust or rejection in him.

I never said Tyrion was an innocent man, I said he was innocent of what Cat was charging him with. People should be punished for specific crimes if anyone is going to claim it's justice, one can't justly do whatever you want to someone because you don't like them and think they are a bad person.

Blaming people for who their family is is wrong. Another major theme of the series. People should be judged for their actions, not punished for the actions of others. This is very very basic morality 101, and something harped on over and over in ASoIaF.

Being scared I can sympathize with, and I get why she did what she did, but she was catastrophically wrong both morally and practically in her choice to abduct Tyrion.

And again, justice isn't based on punishing people for vaguely perceived moral judgements of their character or their last name or how they react to other people's crimes. You might not feel bad for Tyrion, and that's fine, but it was not justice to kidnap him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I never said Tyrion was an innocent man, I said he was innocent of what Cat was charging him with. People should be punished for specific crimes if anyone is going to claim it's justice, one can't justly do whatever you want to someone because you don't like them and think they are a bad person.

Blaming people for who their family is is wrong. Another major theme of the series. People should be judged for their actions, not punished for the actions of others. This is very very basic morality 101, and something harped on over and over in ASoIaF.

Being scared I can sympathize with, and I get why she did what she did, but she was catastrophically wrong both morally and practically in her choice to abduct Tyrion.

And again, justice isn't based on punishing people for vaguely perceived moral judgements of their character or their last name or how they react to other people's crimes. You might not feel bad for Tyrion, and that's fine, but it was not justice to kidnap him. 

So we agree on principles. If Cat seized Tyrion in order to personally punish him, that would be wrong. But she has two other motives she could give:

  • Justice. LF's evidence involves Tyrion in the second attack on Bran - in my view that's easily enough to justify forcing Tyrion to trial. Tyrion wanted the king to judge the case in KL, which would have suited Cat perfectly because LF and Ned and any witnesses would be there. Unfortunately Lysa took over with her own personal trial of Tyrion for the death of Jon Arryn.
  • Self-defence. She fears she's meeting her son's murderer. She fears he will suspect her reasons for a secret journey south (LF was suspicious). If he hired one assassin, he could hire another - unless she grabs him first.

Reading back, one thing really surprises me: Tyrion was absolutely certain that Cersei would fight for him to be released. And he was totally right, she did. (And the king did in fact order Tyrion to be released.)

Also, I would love to know what would have happened if Tyrion did get a trial and accused LF of lying about the knife. What could he say? LF is nuts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

So we agree on principles. If Cat seized Tyrion in order to personally punish him, that would be wrong. But she has two other motives she could give:

  • Justice. LF's evidence involves Tyrion in the second attack on Bran - in my view that's easily enough to justify forcing Tyrion to trial. Tyrion wanted the king to judge the case in KL, which would have suited Cat perfectly because LF and Ned and any witnesses would be there. Unfortunately Lysa took over with her own personal trial of Tyrion for the death of Jon Arryn.
  • Self-defence. She fears she's meeting her son's murderer. She fears he will suspect her reasons for a secret journey south (LF was suspicious). If he hired one assassin, he could hire another - unless she grabs him first.

Reading back, one thing really surprises me: Tyrion was absolutely certain that Cersei would fight for him to be released. And he was totally right, she did. (And the king did in fact order Tyrion to be released.)

Also, I would love to know what would have happened if Tyrion did get a trial and accused LF of lying about the knife. What could he say? LF is nuts.

No matter her motive it cannot be justice for multiple reasons.

A victim retaliating is vengeance.

She was wrong in her accusations.

Cat had no right to arrest Tyrion. It's obvious to everyone in KL immediately that Cat is wildly out of line and in the wrong here, as you point out, even Cersei won't put up with it.

In fact, it's a textbook act of war, and is the first public act of violence which does in fact spark the conflict.

It's not that she doesn't have excuses. She was attacked, she feels vulnerable, she was lied too, but it still isn't justice, and no amount of excuses justifies it.

The argument for self defense is just ridiculous and laughable if I'm being honest. This situation doesn't come anywhere close to justifying self defense by any reasonable standard.

However, I too would like to know what LF would have said had Cat done the right thing and brought Tyrion to KL for trial. It seems like the reality is that Robert won the knife from LF and not Tyrion though (and LF did try to get Ned to throw it away), so I'm not sure LF would be in any real danger despite the lie. LF wasn't in Winterfell and is one of the few people we can be sure didn't send the assassin.

The fact is Cat, more than anyone, should have know better than to trust LF.

Quote

He looked contrite. The look brought back vivid memories for Catelyn. He had been a sly child, but after his mischiefs he always looked contrite; it was a gift he had. The years had not changed him much. - A Game of Thrones, Cat 4

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lady Dacey Thanks! And I am very sorry for not replying until now, I have been really busy this week. That is an interesting thing indeed, but i never even noticed that LS could be going north. :huh: I will give it some thought. I have realised that I should reread the novels again because some things are a little blurry (and until George publishes Winds of Winter I believe I have enough time lol):rofl:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lady Stoneheart is like an artificial intelligence who was programmed to do one thing.  She will carry out that program until she finally dies.  That programming imprinted the last desire she had before her first death.  She will go on killing Freys and Lannisters until she dies.  This is the clue as to what Jon will become when he comes back.  He will be just like her.  It is a tragedy in the making.  He will become an Undead with a single mission to carry out with his remaining time.  Jon will kill the men of the Night's Watch.  He will become the ghost of Castle Black and haunt the Wall. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/16/2020 at 4:15 AM, Makk said:

Her eyes glimmering sounds almost as if she is crying.

That's also how read that line. Brienne has an issue with reading faces, especially emotions in faces. Her descriptions of faces are very factually descriptive, but lack emotional reading, and she tends to take words literally. Double entendres are not her strong suit. I suspect Brienne was written in a manner to being impaired to some level to read body language, especially facial language. And LS's glimmering eyes are an example of this. 

The picture of LS with the crown and studying the sword and the letter strikes me as very Cat-like, melancholic and sad. Sure she's harsh and not open to believing what those she believes guilty proclaim in defence of their innocence. But even that is not that much different of Cat with Tyrion. The major difference imo is that if Cat could still doubt herself when alive and therefore hold back, she has become more ruthless.

I don't consider he a monster at all, nor without emotions. Even desiring revenge is a human emotion. And while Cat may have been dead for several days before she was resurrected, she was also resurrected but once, while Beric was resurrected so many times he couldn't even remember his home, what food was like, etc. She's mostly a tragic, sad character to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mordred said:

Lady Stoneheart is like an artificial intelligence who was programmed to do one thing.  She will carry out that program until she finally dies.  That programming imprinted the last desire she had before her first death.  She will go on killing Freys and Lannisters until she dies.  This is the clue as to what Jon will become when he comes back.  He will be just like her.  It is a tragedy in the making.  He will become an Undead with a single mission to carry out with his remaining time.  Jon will kill the men of the Night's Watch.  He will become the ghost of Castle Black and haunt the Wall. 

She is what Jon and Arya are becoming.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/16/2020 at 1:00 PM, Curled Finger said:

What does important in the resurrection game mean?  Taken that Thoros, the original kiss of life guy, is in LSH's company, your statement really gets me thinking about why.   

I think the possibility of being resurrected through fire magic is extremely important in the story not just some little novelty. After all, the one instance of resurrection we have seen so far - Beric - wields a flaming sword - which is essential for the AA myth to happen again. We saw in the first prologue that Waymar's sword shattered from the cold of the Other's strange sword - perhaps a fiery sword is needed to fight an Other. I believe the flame in his sword comes from himself - from the fire magic that raised him. So it could be any sword that is used to defeat the Others, although perhaps a Valyrian one would be extra powerful. And we have seen that Beric can pass on resurrection, as long as he is prepared to die himself. Thoros seems to be able to keep resurrecting Beric but we can't really be sure he can do this for other people. He surprised himself with Beric.

Early on I could see Ice was the most important sword and most likely to be AA's sword. Like the characters, it has gone on a journey from north to south, been destroyed to be reforged, and changed from Ice to Fire, It now has ripples of blood read Valerian steel and of smoky charcoal black. In the scenes at the Whispers where Brienne ends up killing the outlaws with Oathkeeper, there is constant mention of 'magic swords' in the text. There is a whole lot of attention in the text to explaining that Stannis sword is 'fake' meanwhile in my opinion something 'real' is happening at the BWB hideout.

Then I read a post by a guy who just signed up, made an interesting and then didn't hang around. I can never find his original post. His theory was that Thoros could be seen as AA and the people he resurrects as his sword. I don't really care how it fits together, but the pattern he notices was to do with Lightbringer being tempered in 1. fire 2. water 3. the heart of a lion and 4. the breast of AA's beloved.  This guy pointed out that Beric could represent fire (red hair, lightning sigil, known as the lightning lord) - he fails, though, he cannot bear his constant deaths and fading sense of self and chooses to try to breathe life into Cat when Thoros says it is too late). Catelyn represents water - there is a host of symbolism to do with this - the surname Tully, the blue of Tully eyes and on their sigil, their castle Riverrun, their river burials, the fact that Catelyn is hauled out of the river etc - and her forging failed in that she has dedicated herself to vengeance - just as the sword shattered when put in water. Both Beric and Catelyn have a sense of mission - Beric is still essentially carrying out the mission Ned sent him on and Catelyn is carrying out the vengeance she was thinking about as she died after killing Jinglebells.

So two people on their way to the BWB hideout are Jaime and Brienne. Jaime is obviously a lion. Brienne is a kind of antithetical beloved - she is mockingly called Brienne the Beauty, and Evenstar is one of the classical names for the planet Venus, Goddess of Love. That is because it is the first star seen at night. But it is also known as Lightbringer because it precedes the sun in the morning. Also, of course, she is on her way to being Jaime's beloved.

I don't interpret this reading of a chain of resurrection as necessarily meaning that Brienne will fight the Others, although that is possible. But I think a chain of resurrection in starting at the BBW that will end up being important. Brienne may not be the last person in the chain. I don't really care about that. I think its absolutely obvious that the real way that a Lightbringer can be forged is being demonstrated - it is through fire and blood - and the story of lightbringer's forging is hidden in the sequence of people affected. Anyway, if TWOW comes out we can see how crackpot or otherwise this theory of the four people proves to be. I like it for now! Another big issue is, how will Jon survive? I think surely by temporarily entering Ghost as a warg. But will he get his own body back? Will the same fire magic be involved in his resurrection?

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Castellan said:

I think the possibility of being resurrected through fire magic is extremely important in the story not just some little novelty. After all, the one instance of resurrection we have seen so far - Beric - wields a flaming sword - which is essential for the AA myth to happen again. We saw in the first prologue that Waymar's sword shattered from the cold of the Other's strange sword - perhaps a fiery sword is needed to fight an Other. I believe the flame in his sword comes from himself - from the fire magic that raised him. So it could be any sword that is used to defeat the Others, although perhaps a Valyrian one would be extra powerful. And we have seen that Beric can pass on resurrection, as long as he is prepared to die himself. Thoros seems to be able to keep resurrecting Beric but we can't really be sure he can do this for other people. He surprised himself with Beric.

Early on I could see Ice was the most important sword and most likely to be AA's sword. Like the characters, it has gone on a journey from north to south, been destroyed to be reforged, and changed from Ice to Fire, It now has ripples of blood read Valerian steel and of smoky charcoal black. In the scenes at the Whispers where Brienne ends up killing the outlaws with Oathkeeper, there is constant mention of 'magic swords' in the text. There is a whole lot of attention in the text to explaining that Stannis sword is 'fake' meanwhile in my opinion something 'real' is happening at the BWB hideout.

Then I read a post by a guy who just signed up, made an interesting and then didn't hang around. I can never find his original post. His theory was that Thoros could be seen as AA and the people he resurrects as his sword. I don't really care how it fits together, but the pattern he notices was to do with Lightbringer being tempered in 1. fire 2. water 3. the heart of a lion and 4. the breast of AA's beloved.  This guy pointed out that Beric could represent fire (red hair, lightning sigil, known as the lightning lord) - he fails, though, he cannot bear his constant deaths and fading sense of self and chooses to try to breathe life into Cat when Thoros says it is too late). Catelyn represents water - there is a host of symbolism to do with this - the surname Tully, the blue of Tully eyes and on their sigil, their castle Riverrun, their river burials, the fact that Catelyn is hauled out of the river etc - and her forging failed in that she has dedicated herself to vengeance - just as the sword shattered when put in water. Both Beric and Catelyn have a sense of mission - Beric is still essentially carrying out the mission Ned sent him on and Catelyn is carrying out the vengeance she was thinking about as she died after killing Jinglebells.

So two people on their way to the BWB hideout are Jaime and Brienne. Jaime is obviously a lion. Brienne is a kind of antithetical beloved - she is mockingly called Brienne the Beauty, and Evenstar is one of the classical names for the planet Venus, Goddess of Love. That is because it is the first star seen at night. But it is also known as Lightbringer because it precedes the sun in the morning. Also, of course, she is on her way to being Jaime's beloved.

I don't interpret this reading of a chain of resurrection as necessarily meaning that Brienne will fight the Others, although that is possible. But I think a chain of resurrection in starting at the BBW that will end up being important. Brienne may not be the last person in the chain. I don't really care about that. I think its absolutely obvious that the real way that a Lightbringer can be forged is being demonstrated - it is through fire and blood - and the story of lightbringer's forging is hidden in the sequence of people affected. Anyway, if TWOW comes out we can see how crackpot or otherwise this theory of the four people proves to be. I like it for now! Another big issue is, how will Jon survive? I think surely by temporarily entering Ghost as a warg. But will he get his own body back? Will the same fire magic be involved in his resurrection?

Thanks for the explanation.  I got 2 paragraphs in and cursed you for a R'hllorist.  But the idea as you present it is really interesting.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...