Who will be King by the end? And what will king mean?

[Brandon Snow was right]

I just pray it isn't Bran.

[Azarial]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Exactly. Jon is not the most eager man for power and authority, but true to his Stark side he sees it as duty and once he gets it he goes all the way to do his duty.

I agree with all of yours and @SeanF assessments on Jon, and was thinking the exact same thing about Robert as well. But, I think the key with Jon, is he believes the right to rule should be earned. No forcing people to follow you (he implied as much in his conversations with Stannis) or blood right. We all know how he felt about both Robert and Jeoffery. I also know some on here will jump in with but the Starks inherit! And that's true. But Ned earned their respect, he didn't demand it. We are told that he visits all the Lords, he doesn't just expect them to attend him, he follows the traditions of the mountain clans and earns their respect by respecting them, he has each head of areas in his castle eat with him to discuss matters, and he never feels worthy or entitled so he keeps trying to earn their trust and took all the boys with him. I think this is more where GRRM is going BTW not the silly those who don't want it should rule, it's more those who feel they need to earn it, a lack of entitlement more so than a lack of desire. Very similar to what you say above, the duty vs right dichotomy. 

And Jon actively supports peoples right to question those in authority. So if he ever becomes a King in any capacity it would have to keep these factors in mind, and Iron throne just doesn't work that way. He is in opposition to everything it stands for. So if he was given it based on blood right, then he'd pull a Creigan Stark and give up the power (I get one was hand and the other king, but the idea is the same). Especially since his thoughts on the south are, "Southron fools." All the Stark children apart from Jon were raised with both faiths as well, Jon thanks to Cat, and his treatment at the wall by followers of the faith of the Seven has no respect for it. I think this means he can't rule south of the neck. He's not one of their own. He knows that. But he knows the north, and the far north. So this doesn't mean he can't rule in some capacity, north of the neck  I know people think Bran is fully linked to the Old Gods, but he's not. He's both and that makes him a good choice to bridge the gap.

[Shierak Qiya]

On 10/16/2020 at 5:33 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

The only people who will accept Jon Snow are the Wildlings.  There won't be any king of Westeros in the end.  But there will be a monarch who will rule in the end.  Queen Daenerys Targaryen. 

This. I think so too.  Daenerys Targaryen will be a great ruler for Westeros.  She is the leader that the long-suffering people need.  Their leaders have failed them repeatedly.  Robert, Joffrey, Robb, Jon Arryn, Tywin, Jon Snow, Balon Greyjoy, Euron, and Cersei have all failed the people they led.  Bran is not learning anything about leadership.  Knowing the past is not enough.  A ruler should spend time with people and connect with the world.  Bran is in the cover of darkness, watching people's lives like that weird guy in Sliver.  That's not a good background for a leader of any kind. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

23 hours ago, Azarial said:

Jon, is he believes the right to rule should be earned. No forcing people to follow you (he implied as much in his conversations with Stannis) or blood right.

I think Jon adopts this view with the free folk and when he advises Stannis but he has an authoritarian streak too. He imposes his will on Gilly, Pip, Marsh, and makes unilateral decisions. Also if he had an organized opposition to blood right and rule by force he wouldn't have Dareon Targaryen as his hero. Like what the hell Jon.

[Azarial]

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Jon adopts this view with the free folk and when he advises Stannis but he has an authoritarian streak too. He imposes his will on Gilly, Pip, Marsh, and makes unilateral decisions. Also if he had an organized opposition to blood right and rule by force he wouldn't have Dareon Targaryen as his hero. Like what the hell Jon.

But Lord commander is an elected position, and he made those unilateral decisions in that capacity, nothing to do with blood right. I didn't mean to imply he was against him being in a position of power, it's the why that I think would be an issue for him. And he did the job, but was miserable as LC so I don't think a much larger role where he wasn't chosen, and didn't earn it would appeal to him unless there is a big shift over the next two books (and there easily could be)

As for this:

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"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.

"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"

He was trying to show that he was old enough to make a life altering decision at his age, while drunk lol. And he was a hero to him for accomplishing so much when of an age with Jon. It's natural for him to be his hero, and was likely a hero of many young men in Westeros. But, if Jon thinks on what Ben said, and he thinks on everything people say to him being such a brooder, paired with everything he's seen as he grew up some over the last two years, I suspect his beliefs are now more in line with Ben's than his own original thoughts as he values protecting lives over earning glory. I'd be surprised if he still thinks costing 60k lives, with no long term gain other than songs and post humous glory, for no reason other than he wanted to, and felt entitled to rule a place his family has no real claim on simply because they listed it as one of their kingdoms is admirable. Kids and teenagers have all sorts of heroes that they themselves find laughable when they grow up a bit.  And we know that in Dance he respects Mance more than Stannis, and Stannis more than the Lannister's. This shows he values a king that is chosen by the people over one that is entitled, and one that fights to save lives over one that fights for glory and titles, at this point in his arc. He's no longer a sheltered 14y old.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Azarial said:

He was trying to show that he was old enough to make a life altering decision at his age, while drunk lol. And he was a hero to him for accomplishing so much when of an age with Jon. It's natural for him to be his hero, and was likely a hero of many young men in Westeros. But, if Jon thinks on what Ben said, and he thinks on everything people say to him being such a brooder, paired with everything he's seen as he grew up some over the last two years, I suspect his beliefs are now more in line with Ben's than his own original thoughts as he values protecting lives over earning glory. I'd be surprised if he still thinks costing 60k lives, with no long term gain other than songs and post humous glory, for no reason other than he wanted to, and felt entitled to rule a place his family has no real claim on simply because they listed it as one of their kingdoms is admirable. Kids and teenagers have all sorts of heroes that they themselves find laughable when they grow up a bit.  And we know that in Dance he respects Mance more than Stannis, and Stannis more than the Lannister's. This shows he values a king that is chosen by the people over one that is entitled, and one that fights to save lives over one that fights for glory and titles, at this point in his arc. He's no longer a sheltered 14y old.

I wish I shared your optimism but Jon has not really learned the story of Dorne outside of Daeron's account. Daeron is still in Jon's thoughts by Dance! He gets corrected on his history again by Stannis just like Benjen corrected him in Book 1. Which probably means he still doesn't understand what "his hero" did. These blindspots in history will catch up with him just like they have with other characters. 

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But Lord commander is an elected position, and he made those unilateral decisions in that capacity, nothing to do with blood right. I didn't mean to imply he was against him being in a position of power, it's the why that I think would be an issue for him. And he did the job, but was miserable as LC so I don't think a much larger role where he wasn't chosen, and didn't earn it would appeal to him unless there is a big shift over the next two books (and there easily could be)

By unilateral decisions I mean that he mistakenly thinks he only needs himself and not advisors, that he only listens to his instincts, and that he knows what's best. Forget for a moment that he does know what's best; when characters come back from death, they are changed, and not in a positive way. So I think this personality trait is not going to help him going forward. 

[Azarial]

15 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I wish I shared your optimism but Jon has not really learned the story of Dorne outside of Daeron's account. Daeron is still in Jon's thoughts by Dance! He gets corrected on his history again by Stannis just like Benjen corrected him in Book 1. Which probably means he still doesn't understand what "his hero" did. These blindspots in history will catch up with him just like they have with other characters. 

I interpreted that scene as him adapting a useful strategy, and discarding the rest and Stannis disliking the tactic at first, but he used that tactic in the end, and it worked. This was more showing Stannis's flawed thinking in preferring traditional direct battle plans, over using goat trails, and trickery in how I interpreted it. But I can see that it's open for interpretation.

15 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

By unilateral decisions I mean that he mistakenly thinks he only needs himself and not advisors, that he only listens to his instincts, and that he knows what's best. Forget for a moment that he does know what's best; when characters come back from death, they are changed, and not in a positive way. So I think this personality trait is not going to help him going forward. 

He does seek advice though, he just chose his advisors poorly.  He even thinks about how he's glad they aren't yes men as he wanted differing opinions. It's more that he doesn't understand the need to surround himself with people he can trust, choosing instead the ones most experienced in their area, not understanding that being the most knowledgeable in their area doesn't make them the best suited for a leadership/advisory position.  He also didn't know how a bias against the Free Folk would impact their ability to advise him effectively, how could he? The alliance with them was very new, and he didn't even know he was being considered for LC and was pressured to make decisions in the moment with no time to think it over (Bowen). I view it more as him not being willing to demote them and replace them with someone better once their personal biases make it clear that they are ineffective advisors, as he is to used to a role being for life. Also him trying so hard to not show preferential treatment to his friends that he went to far the other way. He is very extreme (for a man in a feudal society) in his belief in you get what you earn, without understanding that leadership roles require more than expertise in a specialized area. 

The death changing him bit is true, but since we don't know how it's going to change him, and the resurrected characters all vary greatly, I try not to make assumptions on how he will be when he comes back. We don't know if he'll even be able to talk when he comes back. Him having a silent wolf, getting his throat slit, Dany's vision of  silent wolf, and Lady Stonehearts difficulty speaking could mean he loses the ability to speak for example (thankfully he and Bran are telepathic if this does happen) but we just don't know. And if it enhances the traits shown when the person dies as many speculate, then we really don't know since no one agrees on what his main motivations were at that time. (Please, thread posters, don't discuss this here, as it would derail the thread, it's just an observation  )

So I, personally, try to approach these questions based on how he was in Dance, and when we see what happens in Winds I will reevaluate. As basing things on how he might be when he comes back is just guessing. Fun and interesting, but way to many variables to say for sure when it comes to resurrection. Especially when many don't believe he actually died and won't have any magical changes. I don't know what I believe in regards to it all, and change my mind on what I think may happen often so refuse to use speculation on how he'll be post res. as a starting point for theorizing. Although analyzing all the possible changes and ways the various possibilities in regards to res./being in a comma etc. in isolation could make a fun thread. I've only seen this discussed in combination with other things.

[Wholala17]

Definitely not Dany. The delusional Dany fans can stop. George isn't generic vanilla story teller like you. 

And in all honesty, it's probably Bran lmao. How that happens is the million dollar question isn't it

[TheLastWolf]

26 minutes ago, Wholala17 said:

Definitely not Dany. The delusional Dany fans can stop. George isn't generic vanilla story teller like you.

Oh poor guy! I pity you. Just escape when her million strong Queensguard (on this forum) comes to salvage her honor by avenging the slight to her name by trolling you or something.

Or not, just to prove __ wrong.

[Quoth the raven,]

On 10/23/2020 at 2:26 AM, Shierak Qiya said:

This. I think so too.  Daenerys Targaryen will be a great ruler for Westeros.  She is the leader that the long-suffering people need.  Their leaders have failed them repeatedly.  Robert, Joffrey, Robb, Jon Arryn, Tywin, Jon Snow, Balon Greyjoy, Euron, and Cersei have all failed the people they led.  Bran is not learning anything about leadership.  Knowing the past is not enough.  A ruler should spend time with people and connect with the world.  Bran is in the cover of darkness, watching people's lives like that weird guy in Sliver.  That's not a good background for a leader of any kind. 

Bran is the next greenseer.  I suppose you could stretch it and say he sits on a "throne" of leaves and roots.  But he is not going to be the ruler of the seven kingdoms.  I believe that honor will belong to Dany. 

[Frey family reunion]

If the last book is supposed to be titled a Dream of Spring than it seems pretty evident that the series ends during another Long Night.  (After all the first Long Night lasted a generation) So I doubt that we’re going to see a realm that at all resembles the realm as it existed at the start of the series.  I doubt the Iron Throne will still exist.  I also doubt we’ll see anything that resembles the Targaryen kingdom crafted by Aegon the Conqueror or his descendants.  Instead I expect to see a collected group of survivors perhaps living in caves, awaiting the end of a post-apocalyptic winter.

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If the last book is supposed to be titled a Dream of Spring than it seems pretty evident that the series ends during another Long Night.  (After all the first Long Night lasted a generation) So I doubt that we’re going to see a realm that at all resembles the realm as it existed at the start of the series.  I doubt the Iron Throne will still exist.  I also doubt we’ll see anything that resembles the Targaryen kingdom crafted by Aegon the Conqueror or his descendants.  Instead I expect to see a collected group of survivors perhaps living in caves, awaiting the end of a post-apocalyptic winter.

Sad but possible.  According to GM, Aegon might have known what was coming.  He did what he did to get the people ready.  Perhaps he had a copy of Dreams and Portents.  

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If the last book is supposed to be titled a Dream of Spring than it seems pretty evident that the series ends during another Long Night.  (After all the first Long Night lasted a generation) So I doubt that we’re going to see a realm that at all resembles the realm as it existed at the start of the series.  I doubt the Iron Throne will still exist.  I also doubt we’ll see anything that resembles the Targaryen kingdom crafted by Aegon the Conqueror or his descendants.  Instead I expect to see a collected group of survivors perhaps living in caves, awaiting the end of a post-apocalyptic winter.

I agree with everything. No Kingdoms. Targs or otherwise. No IT. Apocalypse and it's after effects, not so much. I think George is going to pull a Twilight saga like ending with the climax revealing Others aren't out to cause Armageddon, but just another species. GRRM doesn't use typical evil villains just because it's a species trait. No Orcs from him. He isn't entirely Tolkien. I believe the evildoers are Bloodraven and the COTF, who are out for revenge against Shiera/Quaithe and the humans respectively. Reasons (respectively) are for wedding BR to a tree and humans wiping out most creatures (magical and otherwise). 

As to the title, A Dream of Spring was originally titled A Time for Wolves, IIRC. So the Starks will bring Winter to many people (Freys and Boltons chiefly) via Arya, Rickon, and Sansa incl. their direwolves. Jon, not so much. Knows nothing does everything. Bran, nope. Knows everything does nothing. 

So no certainty about post apocalyptic future. No certainty about Targ/Stark or any rule. Baratheon included. 

[Azarial]

11 hours ago, Wholala17 said:

And in all honesty, it's probably Bran lmao. How that happens is the million dollar question isn't it

The main clues we have are greenseers being metaphorical giants, and Harrenhall being made to the scale of giants, with weirwood beams etc. Then Dany's vision of the Others reaching the Trident. So the most plausible reason seems that the survivors make their last stand at Harrenhall under Brans direction, and that he is the one who tells them how to survive. Shelter, survival, food, and a link to the Gods (that the Seven followers may adopt after seeing what goes on as the first men are said to have done in the first long night), are all pretty reasonable reasons to declare someone a King. Especially since the Riverlands has intermarried greatly with the North in the past (Creigans troops for example) meaning there are a lot more old gods followers than many seem to realize.  Stannis took the storm lords and the lords pledged to Dragonstone north, and they will likely turn to Jon when/if Stannis dies, linking them to the north. The Stoney Dornish could join the North because of the bond between the Daynes and the Starks, especially Arya and Edrick. Sansa will Bring the Vale. Half of the Ironborn are already trying to join the north via Asha and Theon, and are currently with Stannis. So house Stark would have the support of many of the kingdoms with no need to wage war. All they need to do is protect people to earn their loyalty. "Save the realm to earn the crown." As Stannis/Davos said. The big thing will be how does he reach there from north of the wall. But I'm betting on the underground river that goes to the sunset sea, since the sunset Kingdom is the other name for Westeros, I figure that river will take them home.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 10/18/2020 at 5:01 AM, TheLastWolf said:

On 10/18/2020 at 4:51 AM, El Guapo said:

How pray tell is this any different than Jon Snow fans wanting to see his boring ass on the throne?

Im one and yet don't want that. Only power hungry crazies play the game of thrones. Power or revenge. Jon fights for the entire realm. The entire race. Jon may end up king of Winter. Fuck the Iron Throne and its dirty politics. Winter is pure. Snow is pure. Clean. 

"I don't even want Jon to be King! Here's a thread I made about Jon being King..."

"Dany fans are delusional, thinking she's flawless! Hello Sir, have you heard the good word of our pure & clean lord and savior, Jonsus Snow?"

Keeping it real 2020

[TheLastWolf]

8 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

"I don't even want Jon to be King! Here's a thread I made about Jon being King..."

Oh Boy! Another person who doesn't fully read before commenting, that too sarcastically. 

I said I didn't want Jon to be King OF WESTEROS, ON THE IRON THRONE!!! Dirty politics, got it?

But many foreshadowing events suggest he may end up a ruler (whether he, you or I like it or not). That's why I made a thread about that. Ruler includes King of North, King in the North (don't ask me what's the difference), King of Winter, King of Corn or even the Night King

8 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

"Dany fans are delusional, thinking she's flawless!

Pretty sure it was more along the lines of blind fanatical worshipers. I didn't spell it out, but you get the gist.

8 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Hello Sir, have you heard the good word of our pure & clean lord and savior, Jonsus Snow?"

I never claimed he was/is/will be purrrrr-fect. Coming to think of it, i've seen no one else on the forum claim so either (atleast since i joined), jon fan or otherwise. But the same cannot be said for many dany fans (worsh...). 

All sorts of fiction crop up to suit one's one argument.

8 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Keeping it real 2020

"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                                                                                                    "

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

 

I am fond of looking for foreshadowings in the text in order to find clues for the future.

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"Kings are a rare sight in the north." Robert snorted "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

A King is hiding under snow in the North.

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When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. "You don't need to kneel for me. That's just for kings."

Even Gilly a wildling bends the knee to Jon. Something that should be done only for the Kings.

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She rubbed away a tear angrily, the way Arya might have done it. “Will you help me?”
“Marriages and inheritance are matters for the king, my lady. I will write to Stannis on your behalf, but—”
Alys Karstark laughed, but it was the laughter of despair. “Write, but do not look for a reply. Stannis will be dead before he gets your message. My uncle will see to that.”
“Arnolf is rushing to Winterfell, ’tis true, but only so he might put his dagger in your king’s back... Lord Stannis is marching to a slaughter. So he cannot help me, and would not even if he could.” Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.”

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“No.” He could hear the defeat in her voice. “Sorry to be of trouble, m’lord. I only … they said the king keeps people safe, and I thought …”
Damn her, he thought resentfully, and damn Sam twice for sending her to me. What did he think I could do for her? We’re here to fight wildlings, not save them.

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I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

The King's duty is to save the Realm and those who is in danger, like Alys, Gilly and the wildlings.

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He wants me gone, Catelyn thought wearily. Kings are not supposed to have mothers, it would seem, and I tell him things he does not want to hear.

Which of the potential Kings is famously motherless?

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“That’s the real king of this castle right there, older than sin and twice as mean... One time the king was feasting the queen’s father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin’s fingers. Robert laughed so hard he was like to burst. You stay away from that one, child.”

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But they were all dead now, even Arya, everyone but her half-brother, Jon. Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman’s Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him.

The real King in the King's Landing is a Black Bastard and there is one Black Bastard who holds the Wall. Rhaenys' black bastard was called Balerion, could the Black Bastard on the Wall have a similar name like Baelor?

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I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

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She knows who he is, She sees things in her fires.
Arya he thought, hoping it was so. Ashes and cinders.
Kings and dragons.

Melisandre who sees both Kings and dragons in her flames sees only Snow.

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"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," IT said again, strutting back and forth.
"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.
"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."
"King," the bird said again.
"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."
"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while HIS eyes never left Jon Snow.

A raven, Bloodraven, is calling Jon King.

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"You have my word, Lord Snow. I will be a proper wildling princess for your queen."

Does this means tha Val is going to be Jon's wife and Queen?

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"Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne."
Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

Aemon Targaryen gave Jon the same counsel he gave Aegon V.

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"Jon laughed, laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him. "

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He had spent the best part of his own life obeying the commands of drunkards and madmen.

The Kings Barristan had served were drunkards and madmen.

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"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?"

Jon's road leads to the castle Arya was going.

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“Marriages and inheritance are matters for the king,

[...]

“Your father is a castellan, not a lord. And a castellan has no right to make marriage pacts.”

[...]
And this marriage is mine own work, after all

 

For Alys' marriage

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“Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.
He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

The bastard Joffrey is not allowed to hurt Jon.

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Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king.

I wonder who will warg Ghost

 

Let us guess now who it looks like being the King in the end.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

30 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Let us guess now who it looks like being the King in the end.

Dany

[Only 89 selfies today]

There won't be a king, but there will be a queen.  Dany will be the ruler of Westeros.  The story is progressing to bring the story to that conclusion.  The story will end during the long night but we will get the beginnings of a new dawn empire just like it did at the start of the Great Empire of the Dawn.  Dany will be building the foundations for this empire just as her ancestors did a long time ago. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

46 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

There won't be a king, but there will be a queen.  Dany will be the ruler of Westeros.  The story is progressing to bring the story to that conclusion.  The story will end during the long night but we will get the beginnings of a new dawn empire just like it did at the start of the Great Empire of the Dawn.  Dany will be building the foundations for this empire just as her ancestors did a long time ago. 

Of course she will, who cares about such minor things like the literal mountain of foreshadowing @Lilac & Gooseberries presented.