Who will be King by the end? And what will king mean?

[TheLastWolf]

On 10/16/2020 at 1:28 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Dany fans will disagree coz they want their precious exiled queen to claim her birthright (like she wants to and which was just for 300 yrs compared to the 1000s other houses ). But if she prolongs the war, plays the game and not defends the Realm using her nukes (3 kids), she will be just another tyrant for power, like Cersei or Euron.

Not even passed to the next page yet and it is more than true. Look at the choice of words in the subsequent quotes. (That made me helpless in taking a dig at u guys) 

On 10/16/2020 at 3:03 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

The only people who will accept Jon Snow are the Wildlings.  There won't be any king of Westeros in the end.  But there will be a monarch who will rule in the end.  Queen Daenerys Targaryen

Blah blah blah 

22 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that only person who would be strong enough to rule all 7 kingdoms would be Dany

This is atleast is OK. Not heroine worshipping biased opinion. Considering her medieval nuke kids, she's definitely powerful. If she could bond with them like the direwolves and Starks instead of trying to control them and hadn't wasted all those great opportunities to get lots of swords to win her birthright, bloodright and all rights back, she would be even more powerful. 

20 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I do not believe it will be Jon Snow.  He was very bad at leading and ruling at the wall.  He would not be able to handle a kingdom if he could not even manage the wall.  The only person who really is getting the right preparation and who also has the right attitude is Daenerys Targaryen.  All the other contenders are merely serving his or her own family.  

Blah blah blah. Who is Dany serving then? Her own incestuous family's bloodline only. Like all the others want to. To put their family and house in a great position. And don't drag the slaves into this. No real difference in their living conditions after freeing. More fights and diseases and hunger while she eats unborn dogs in her pyramid. 

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The obvious perfect choice to lead Westeros out of the darkness and into the Light is Daenerys 

 Obvious. Perfect. Perhaps to u worshippers. @TedBear was and is right about her being not so great a ruler.

And we already have out-of-darkness to Light stuff guys a lot. Red Rahloo's ass lickers. Meli for starters. Moqorro, Benerro. Thoros (not so much). 

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

May god help Westeros if Jon ever becomes king.  Even divine help may not be enough to save the realm from him

Embolden everything. Biased exaggeration of the decade. And FYI, no gods exist. Just ask Tyrion. Just magic and humans. In PLANETOS at least. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

On 10/16/2020 at 10:58 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Dany fans will disagree coz they want their precious exiled queen to claim her birthright (like she wants to and which was just for 300 yrs compared to the 1000s other houses ). But if she prolongs the war, plays the game and not defends the Realm using her nukes (3 kids), she will be just another tyrant for power, like Cersei or Euron.

Not even passed to the next page yet and it is more than true. Look at the choice of words in the subsequent quotes. (That made me helpless in taking a dig at u guys) 

On 10/16/2020 at 12:33 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

The only people who will accept Jon Snow are the Wildlings.  There won't be any king of Westeros in the end.  But there will be a monarch who will rule in the end.  Queen Daenerys Targaryen

Blah blah blah 

On 10/16/2020 at 2:47 PM, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that only person who would be strong enough to rule all 7 kingdoms would be Dany

This is atleast is OK. Not heroine worshipping biased opinion. Considering her medieval nuke kids, she's definitely powerful. If she could bond with them like the direwolves and Starks instead of trying to control them and hadn't wasted all those great opportunities to get lots of swords to win her birthright, bloodright and all rights back, she would be even more powerful. 

22 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I do not believe it will be Jon Snow.  He was very bad at leading and ruling at the wall.  He would not be able to handle a kingdom if he could not even manage the wall.  The only person who really is getting the right preparation and who also has the right attitude is Daenerys Targaryen.  All the other contenders are merely serving his or her own family.  

Blah blah blah. Who is Dany serving then? Her own incestuous family's bloodline only. Like all the others want to. To put their family and house in a great position. And don't drag the slaves into this. No real difference in their living conditions after freeing. More fights and diseases and hunger while she eats unborn dogs in her pyramid. 

6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The obvious perfect choice to lead Westeros out of the darkness and into the Light is Daenerys 

 Obvious. Perfect. Perhaps to u worshippers. @TedBear was and is right about her being not so great a ruler.

And we already have out-of-darkness to Light stuff guys a lot. Red Rahloo's ass lickers. Meli for starters. Moqorro, Benerro. Thoros (not so much). 

6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

May god help Westeros if Jon ever becomes king.  Even divine help may not be enough to save the realm from him

Embolden everything. Biased exaggeration of the decade. And FYI, no gods exist. Just ask Tyrion. Just magic and humans. In PLANETOS at least. 

Yes, it's really bad. People take the whole image of Dany as the great heroin breaker of chains mother of dragon, etc, and think it's going to carry on with her being the messiah, when in fact not only will GRRM never do something like that, but she's already showing some big crack by ADWD with her unable to effectively deal with Mereen

[The Young Maester]

If starks retake winterfell. Independence is the most likely option, and I’m sure the south and whoever sits the iron throne will accept it.

The seven kingdoms will likely become an elective monarchy with more power being given to the nobles and less to the king. They’ll likely form some sort of parliament where laws most be approved by the nobles before the king can enact them. 

I predict a mixture of the Holy Roman Empire with a certain number of electors. The position of electors will probably be given to the great houses, and some other powerful houses like Royce and Hightower.

Whilst the seven kingdom will also look like England after the English civil war, with a more constitutional monarchy in which more power is given to parliament.

And who will be king? I think we all know who George has chosen. 

[El Guapo]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Not even passed to the next page yet and it is more than true. Look at the choice of words in the subsequent quotes. (That made me helpless in taking a dig at u guys) 

Blah blah blah 

This is atleast is OK. Not heroine worshipping biased opinion. Considering her medieval nuke kids, she's definitely powerful. If she could bond with them like the direwolves and Starks instead of trying to control them and hadn't wasted all those great opportunities to get lots of swords to win her birthright, bloodright and all rights back, she would be even more powerful. 

Blah blah blah. Who is Dany serving then? Her own incestuous family's bloodline only. Like all the others want to. To put their family and house in a great position. And don't drag the slaves into this. No real difference in their living conditions after freeing. More fights and diseases and hunger while she eats unborn dogs in her pyramid. 

 Obvious. Perfect. Perhaps to u worshippers. @TedBear was and is right about her being not so great a ruler.

And we already have out-of-darkness to Light stuff guys a lot. Red Rahloo's ass lickers. Meli for starters. Moqorro, Benerro. Thoros (not so much). 

Embolden everything. Biased exaggeration of the decade. And FYI, no gods exist. Just ask Tyrion. Just magic and humans. In PLANETOS at least. 

Yes. A lot of Dany fans would like to see Dany on the throne at the end and your point is what exactly?   

How pray tell is this any different than Jon Snow fans wanting to see his boring ass on the throne?

[TheLastWolf]

8 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Yes. A lot of Dany fans would like to see Dany on the throne at the end and your point is what exactly? 

Be realistic 

8 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

How pray tell is this any different than Jon Snow fans wanting to see his boring ass on the throne?

Im one and yet don't want that. Only power hungry crazies play the game of thrones. Power or revenge. Jon fights for the entire realm. The entire race. Jon may end up king of Winter. Fuck the Iron Throne and its dirty politics. Winter is pure. Snow is pure. Clean. 

[El Guapo]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Be realistic 

Im one and yet don't want that. Only power hungry crazies play the game of thrones. Power or revenge. Jon fights for the entire realm. The entire race. Jon may end up king of Winter. Fuck the Iron Throne and its dirty politics. Winter is pure. Snow is pure. Clean. 

Realistic about what exactly?

And I wasn't talking about you specifically. There are plenty of Jon fans that would like to see him on the throne and I want to what the difference is between them expressing that wish as opposed to Dany fans?  Here is a hint. There is no difference.

[TheLastWolf]

On 10/17/2020 at 10:57 PM, El Guapo said:

Realistic about what exactly?

This question has no answer if you remain (choose to remain) blind to all Dany does. Her denial seems to be a character in her fans too (hardcore ones)

On 10/17/2020 at 10:57 PM, El Guapo said:

And I wasn't talking about you specifically. There are plenty of Jon fans that would like to see him on the throne and I want to what the difference is between them expressing that wish as opposed to Dany fans?

I have been on this forum for 7 or so months and I haven't seen ANYONE ( MUCH LESS JON FANS) who wants him on the IT. Sure, Alyn, Bastard of Hull said so in his/this OP, but he is no Jon fan unless I'm mistaken. A few people suggested King of Winter/ North or even Nights' King in my King Jon thread and i go by KOW. 

On the Other hand, there are scores of Dany fans who want her to get her blah blah rights etc.

On 10/17/2020 at 10:57 PM, El Guapo said:

Here is a hint. There is no difference.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooook

[El Guapo]

7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

This question has no answer if you remain (choose to remain) blind to all Dany does. Her denial seems to be a character in her fans too (hardcore ones)

I have been on this forum for 7 or so months and I haven't seen ANYONE ( MUCH LESS JON FANS) who wants him on the IT. Sure, Alyn, Bastard of Hull said so in his/this OP, but he is no Jon fan unless I'm mistaken. A few people suggested King of Winter/ North or even Nights' King in my King Jon thread and i go by KOW. 

On the Other hand, there are scores of Dany fans who want her to get her blah blah rights etc.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooook

Ah I see, so your position is that anyone who does not share your view of Dany is somehow misguided or in denial. lol.  Talk about arrogance..

But whatever you are entitled to your opinion. As far as Jon goes I have been on this forum for 7 years and I repeat there are plenty of Jon fans who want and or/expect Jon to be the King in the end and why not her is one of the main characters in the story.  There is nothing wrong with anyone wanting their favorite character to rule in the end.

[Azarial]

I agree with @TheLastWolf that neither Dany nor Jon are likely to sit the throne in the end. Nor do I think that either of them would really be happy doing so. Dany wanted a family and a place to call home. Taking back Westeros was Visery's dream, not hers. I believe 'remember who you are, the dragons know do you?' doesn't mean Queen. I think it means mother. She wants to be a mother, and have a family and home and is the MOTHER of dragons. She has this vision when she's struggling with being a queen and locked up two of her children, and the third flew off, so she was no longer acting as their mother.

Jon, very similar. Wanted to belong and have a place that was his, where he could earn his way and to prove that bastards are just as honorable as everyone else. He can't do that if he becomes King as a Targaryen, and that is the only way he would end up on the throne. Not going to happen.

Their abilities and blood rights are moot as this end doesn't fit their character arcs. Booth have strengths and weaknesses, both have a blood right to the throne. Neither will get it, or if they do it won't be for long. And since crowning and killing going hand in hand in regards to the throne being a big thing in the books I don't see why anyone would want a character they like to sit the Iron throne. I hope Dany changes her mind and melts it down, then takes off to live the life she wants. Jon can help defeat the bad guys then be allowed to retire (an ending hinted at in book one)

Now, Iron throne is gone, those two are not options, so who will it be?

Well GRRM said a good person doesn't necessarily make a good ruler. They spend to much time trying to please everyone but always disappointing some and it weighs on them as they're too compassionate. But the books also make it clear that someone who is cruel is also bad. So we need someone who can be ruthless when needed, but is willing to compromise and listen. That leaves Bran and Sansa for main characters introduced in book one. Both have made mistakes, both have tried to learn from their mistakes, both try to listen to those around them, both care about the people but understand the need for some separation and how to achieve that without causing offence, both have links to the north and south, both are being trained by people very skilled in politics. I think they will rule together, possibly from Harrenhall. Neither is my favorite character, but that doesn't change the fact that they make sense given the clues in the books up to this point. And no I don't think Sansa will be queen of the North, or that the North will separate. One realm, where they are hopefully chosen at a great council and choose to form a constitutional monarchy in order to prevent this from happening again. It could also be some version of an elected monarchy, this is not unheard of, we see examples in Essos, and in the Nights Watch, of elections being accepted in their world. If the realms split I would see it being into larger regions based on differing cultures, environments and religions. But with two books to go who knows. It's difficult to have more than a vague 'this seems most likely to me' feeling this far from the end of the series. But GRRM did say the clues were in book one, and Cat talking about Bran healing rifts stands out to me.

[TheLastWolf]

On 10/19/2020 at 9:01 PM, El Guapo said:

Ah I see, so your position is that anyone who does not share your view of Dany is somehow misguided or in denial. lol.  Talk about arrogance..

Your position (including most, if not all fervent fanatical (not necessarily a bad thing) Dany worshippers) is that anyone who doesn't think that the sun shines out of Dany's and the Targ's asses is arrogant etc. 

Dany is in denial about her father's sanity, her brothers' (both) complexes and a lot of other things like the guys whom she falls in love with (bastards to whose cruelty she turns a blind eye to, like Daario) and u worshippers are in denial too if you can't accept that. Maybe you guys are her fans coz u share this common trait? I love Dany for her flaws which make her human, but a few ignore those flaws, elevate her to godhood and troll anyone who doesn't think so. 

On 10/19/2020 at 9:01 PM, El Guapo said:

But whatever you are entitled to your opinion. As far as Jon goes I have been on this forum for 7 years and I repeat there are plenty of Jon fans who want and or/expect Jon to be the King in the end and why not her is one of the main characters in the story.  There is nothing wrong with anyone wanting their favorite character to rule in the end.

As @Azarial said, why would you want such a cruel fate for your favorite character?

And there are limits to opinions. Like extreme bias for instance 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

16 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Dany is in denial about her father's sanity, her brothers' (both) complexes

I think that's under control in her case. She doesn't quite realize the magnitude of her father's insanity, but she does realize enough to know that he earned the name of Mad King. And she is in no way in denial about Viserys. She might be about Rhaegar, but honestly we don't know enough about him to say that for now. He might have been Jaehaerys the I come again or he might have been Aerys the 3rd, we just don't know for sure.

[SeanF]

It seems to have been confirmed that Bran will, in some sense, be king at the end.  I don't know if that is good news or not.

I don't think that in the end, either Jon or Daenerys would enjoy the role of Queen or King of Westeros very much.  Either would probably make a good Dux Bellorum. 

I don't buy into the show's stupidity that the only person worthy to exercise power is the person who does not want it.  That's not a serious political statement.  Any good political leader is driven by a mix of ambition and altruism.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

It seems to have been confirmed that Bran will, in some sense, be king at the end.  I don't know if that is good news or not.

GRRM please change it, it makes no sense

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I don't buy into the show's stupidity that the only person worthy to exercise power is the person who does not want it.  That's not a serious political statement.  Any good political leader is driven by a mix of ambition and altruism.

I think the point was that the Throne belongs to someone who doesn't crave power for power's sake but rather a mix of a desire to do good and duty to the realm (kinda like Stannis, but more chiseled and less ambitious)

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

GRRM please change it, it makes no sense

I think the point was that the Throne belongs to someone who doesn't crave power for power's sake but rather a mix of a desire to do good and duty to the realm (kinda like Stannis, but more chiseled and less ambitious)

If you were to take someone like Aragorn (and Martin is deliberately using Jon and Dany as foils to Aragorn) even he is not driven by pure altruism.  Obviously, defeating Sauron is a good and heroic thing, but he also wants the throne so he can marry the woman he loves and found a dynasty.  I think a good leader has to both desire the job for its own sake, and be public spirited. It's both/and rather than either/or.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, SeanF said:

7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

GRRM please change it, it makes no sense

I think the point was that the Throne belongs to someone who doesn't crave power for power's sake but rather a mix of a desire to do good and duty to the realm (kinda like Stannis, but more chiseled and less ambitious)

If you were to take someone like Aragorn (and Martin is deliberately using Jon and Dany as foils to Aragorn) even he is not driven by pure altruism.  Obviously, defeating Sauron is a good and heroic thing, but he also wants the throne so he can marry the woman he loves and found a dynasty.  I think a good leader has to both desire the job for its own sake, and be public spirited. It's both/and rather than either/or.

Interesting idea. One thing is for sure "I dohn wan it" and "she's muh kween" are not suitable qualifications for a King. Cause you know who else didn't want the bloody throne? Robert, the man who layed the seeds tot he clusterfuck that is Wetseros after his death.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Interesting idea. One thing is for sure "I dohn wan it" and "she's muh kween" are not suitable qualifications for a King. Cause you know who else didn't want the bloody throne? Robert, the man who layed the seeds tot he clusterfuck that is Wetseros after his death.

One of the (many) things the two D's got wrong was portraying Jon as a person who runs away from responsibility, which is not at all how the books portray him.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

One of the (many) things the two D's got wrong was portraying Jon as a person who runs away from responsibility, which is not at all how the books portray him.

Exactly. Jon is not the most eager man for power and authority, but true to his Stark side he sees it as duty and once he gets it he goes all the way to do his duty.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

One of the (many) things the two D's got wrong

Are you referring to Deavus and Dutthead?

[Loose Bolt]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

It seems to have been confirmed that Bran will, in some sense, be king at the end.  I don't know if that is good news or not.

The faith would be happy that their protector is demon worshipping shaman/warlock and great houses of southern kingdoms seem to decide that they do not really care who is wearing funny hat or sitting in very unconfy chair. 

[El Guapo]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Your position (including most, if not all fervent fanatical (not necessarily a bad thing) Dany worshippers) is that anyone who doesn't think that the sun shines out of Dany's and the Targ's asses is arrogant etc. 

Dany is in denial about her father's sanity, her brothers' (both) complexes and a lot of other things like the guys whom she falls in love with (bastards to whose cruelty she turns a blind eye to, like Daario) and u worshippers are in denial too if you can't accept that. Maybe you guys are her fans coz u share this common trait? I love Dany for her flaws which make her human, but a few ignore those flaws, elevate her to godhood and troll anyone who doesn't think so. 

As @Azarial said, why would you want such a cruel fate for your favorite character?

And there are limits to opinions. Like extreme bias for instance 

Have any quotes of mine to back this up?  I'd love to see them because it seems like you are just talking out of your ass here. And I can say with complete certainty of having been on this forum for 7 years that the majority of Dany fans like myself love her because she is a very flawed and gray character.  The only "extreme bias" I am seeing is of course coming from you.