How aware was Robert of Lyanna's true feelings for him

[frenin]

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thats not how it works though. Rhaegar doesn't 'get' Lyanna just because they are both dead, In fact, it should be the very opposite - if Rhaegar was Lyanna's captor and rapist then in death, even shared death, she should be 'free' of him.
Robert's 'reasoning' is clearly counter to all normal cultural beliefs about the afterlife. 
That doesn't matter to him, because Robert is is willing to accept cognitive dissonance rather than face a hard truth. Thats part of the reason why he's such a weak and lost individual, drowning himself in alcohol and cheap and meaningless sex. 

What we see in the first passage is Robert unconsciously expressing the knowledge that his conscious mind refuses to acknowledge or accept. He doesn't even realise the meaning of what he's said. Too busy 'feeling' (wallowing) to think.

That's exactly how it works to Robert, for him who doesn't have Lyanna because he's dead, It means that Rhaegar has her because he's dead too. 

"How it works", "Normal cultural believes" are completely irrelevant in this, we're talking about how he sees things, and they are pretty straight forward. 

 

 

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

That expression is his conscious mind, which blocks off the knowledge he doesn't want to accept, expressing its chosen belief.
That its inconsistent with his unconscious mind understanding the reality is entirely consistent with Robert's character throughout AGoT.

No It isn't. Robert is saying out loud things he didn't want to accept before.

 

Quote

“Robert,” Ned said in a voice thick with grief, “you must not do this. Don’t die on me. The realm needs you.” Robert took his hand, fingers squeezing hard. “You are … such a bad liar, Ned Stark,” he said through his pain. “The realm … the realm knows … what a wretched king I’ve been. Bad as Aerys, the gods spare me.” “No,” Ned told his dying friend, “not so bad as Aerys, Your Grace. Not near so bad as Aerys.” Robert managed a weak red smile. “At the least, they will say … this last thing … this I did right. You won’t fail me. You’ll rule now. You’ll hate it, worse than I did … but you’ll do well. Are you done with the scribbling?” “Yes, Your Grace.” Ned offered Robert the paper. The king scrawled his signature blindly, leaving a smear of blood across the letter. “The seal should be witnessed.” “Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” “I promise.” Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed. “The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it … not too late … talk to them … Varys, Littlefinger … don’t let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be … better than me.” He winced. “Gods have mercy.” “They will, my friend,” Ned said. “They will.” The king closed his eyes and seemed to relax. “Killed by a pig,” he muttered. “Ought to laugh, but it hurts too much.” Ned was not laughing. “Shall I call them back?” Robert gave a weak nod. “As you will. Gods, why is it so cold in here?” The servants rushed back in and hurried to feed the fires. The queen had gone; that was some small relief, at least. If she had any sense, Cersei would take her children and fly before the break of day, Ned thought. She had lingered too long already. King Robert did not seem to miss her. He bid his brother Renly and Grand Maester Pycelle to stand in witness as he pressed his seal into the hot yellow wax that Ned had dripped upon his letter. “Now give me something for the pain and let me die.” Hurriedly, Grand Maester Pycelle mixed him another draught of the milk of the poppy. This time the king drank deeply. His black beard was beaded with thick white droplets when he threw the empty cup aside. “Will I dream?” Ned gave him his answer. “You will, my lord.” “Good,” he said, smiling. “I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me.” The words twisted in Ned’s belly like a knife. For a moment, he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie. Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother’s breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. “I shall … guard your children as if they were my own,” he said slowly. Robert nodded and closed his eyes. Ned watched his old friend sag softly into the pillows as the milk of the poppy washed the pain from his face. Sleep took him.

 

- He tells Ned that he was a better King than Aerys in the "you did not know Lyanna as i did" chapter.

- In his deathbed, he confesses to Ned that he's as bad as Aerys.

- He was hellbent on killing Dany once he knew she was pregnant.

- He admits to Ned that it was wrong and praises him for telling him the truths others would not dare to tell him.

 

He's dying, he has no reason whatsoever to keep denying anything, hell that's one of the perks dying provides, he's trying to clean house and set things right. He has no reason whatsoever to keep denying that Lyanna loved Rhaegar, yet he actually believes that he's going to be reunited with her again.

You're constructing an argument based on what you want Robert to say, think and feel rather than what he's actually saying, thinking and feeling.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Robert never acknowledges it, his reasoning is quite clear,  Cersei and him are alive, Lyanna and Rhaegar are dead.

Once he's going to die, he believes he's going to be reunited with Lyanna again. A very odd thought if he already knew what was up.

It's unclear what Robert knows about Lyanna's thoughts and feelings about him. I don't think there's any point at which Ned would have told Robert. Rhaegar is the only person I can think of who might have known and had the opportunity to tell Robert, but if either of them said anything at all, I'm not sure that came up before the end.

What is clear is that Robert understands that there was more to the Rhaegar and Lyanna situation than the story he tells Ned in anger in AGOT Ned II. If he really believed that story he would no doubt believe that Rhaegar is burning in the darkest put of the seven hells, not spending life after death with his innocent hundreds of times raped betrothed.

Giving Lyanna Ned's love is not the same as being reunited with her. He certainly says nothing similar about how he is going to finally get to have Lyanna, or retracts what he said about Rhaegar having Lyanna now.

[frenin]

28 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's unclear what Robert knows about Lyanna's thoughts and feelings about him. I don't think there's any point at which Ned would have told Robert. Rhaegar is the only person I can think of who might have known and had the opportunity to tell Robert, but if either of them said anything at all, I'm not sure that came up before the end.

It's unclear as it's very unlikely that Robert ever got to hear a whiff of something going on if it wasn't by Ned or Lyanna or Rhaegar, ed kept his mouth shut,  Lyanna died in Dorne and the only time Rhaegar got to see him after everythig wet south, hell was surrounding them, so even more unlikely that they exchanged anything.

So... How is Robert knowing and or suspcting anything at all??

 

28 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

What is clear is that Robert understands that there was more to the Rhaegar and Lyanna situation than the story he tells Ned in anger in AGOT Ned II. If he really believed that story he would no doubt believe that Rhaegar is burning in the darkest put of the seven hells, not spending life after death with his innocent hundreds of times raped betrothed.

It's not clear at all,  it's actually just a circular reasoning that by default ignores every other meaning, even if it's more simple.  Rhaegar is dead, Lyana is dead, Robert is alive, thus Rhaegar has her. It's just that simple.

If the problem is that Robert's thoughts are unorthodox... the answer is so what??  This feels like a you problem rather than  there being something wrong with the reasoning, you can't accept the reasoing and as such it has to mean something different rather than what it actually means.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Giving Lyanna Ned's love is not the same as being reunited with her. He certainly says nothing similar about how he is going to finally get to have Lyanna, or retracts what he said about Rhaegar having Lyanna now.

He's not giving Lyanna anything unless he gets to see her, thus them being reunited.  By that, he's already changing the old narrative, as now he's also dead and gets to hang with Lyanna. Nor do i see why would he feel the need to retract on something he doesn't really seem to believe.

Robert is saying out loud the things he denied to himself or simply chose to ignore,  Rhaegar and Lyanna  being cozy doesn't come up. Robert seeig Lyanna again weirdly enough does.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

That's exactly how it works to Robert, for him who doesn't have Lyanna because he's dead, It means that Rhaegar has her because he's dead too. 

"How it works", "Normal cultural believes" are completely irrelevant in this,

Thats absurd. Of course they are not. These things inform a character's beliefs at a very deep level - deeper than their conscious choices usually.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

we're talking about how he sees things, and they are pretty straight forward. 

No, they aren't. Nothing about Robert (psychologically) is straightforward. Thats why he's such a mess.

Robert is presented to us as a very human, flawed, failed even (despite his status and advantages) person. We see often how much he is in denial about things, seeing only what suits him.  How he 'sees' things is a complex picture made up of both his conscious choices and beliefs and the things his unconscious mind can work out even when he chooses to ignore them on a conscious level. The same is true for any human being, though some have a stronger or weaker facility for self delusion on a superficial level.
Robert isn't stupid, only weak.

Taking everything that Robert says at face value only ignores everything about GRRM's writing. His characters are human, flawed, and many lie even to themselves, even on their deathbeds. But you can see how they really think and feel in cues in their behaviour and sometimes speech. Robert knew he was a terrible person and worse king, thats part of why he drunk and whored so much,

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No It isn't. Robert is saying out loud things he didn't want to accept before.

These are things he didn't want to admit before. He knew them, he just chose to state otherwise or ignore them.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

- He tells Ned that he was a better King than Aerys in the "you did not know Lyanna as i did" chapter.

- In his deathbed, he confesses to Ned that he's as bad as Aerys.

Hardly something he didn't know before. He knew what he was doing then, he just wouldn't face up to it and change. There was no great 'revelation' on his deathbed here.
Admitting it now, on his deathbed, doesn't change anything about his self image. Or make him actually face it - Ned's the one who has to face the results, as Robert indicates.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

- He was hellbent on killing Dany once he knew she was pregnant.

- He admits to Ned that it was wrong and praises him for telling him the truths others would not dare to tell him.

Same again. There is no great 'revelation' here. He knew it was wrong before, and thats part of the reason he was so angry with Ned for defying him - he knew Ned was right, he just wouldn't admit it.

These things are very different from the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation. That one touches Robert's core as a person in a way that the superficialities of rulership do not. He has internalised his own narrative so deeply that he believes it.  Thus there is no change on his deathbed. He hasn't been 'lying' about the kidnapping, rape and murder, because he truly believes it.
Yet somehow, his unconscious knows its not true. And thus, it slips out in subtle fashion in an unguarded moment of anger, reflecting the reality his heart understands even though his head has chosen a different truth, And he doesn't even notice, because it was unguarded, subtle, and noticing it would cause severe emotional issues for him at a very deep level.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He's dying, he has no reason whatsoever to keep denying anything, hell that's one of the perks dying provides, he's trying to clean house and set things right.

As far as his conscious mind goes, he never was 'denying' it. He has chosen the narrative he believes and since it touches his core, he really believes it, even as he lies dying.
Its only his subconscious that betrays his cognitive dissonance. As always with cognitive dissonance, he can't see it himself. Instead it shows in unconscious ways - in his mis-behaviour (due to self-hate) rather than in his thoughts.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He has no reason whatsoever to keep denying that Lyanna loved Rhaegar, yet he actually believes that he's going to be reunited with her again.

Except, he makes no mention of being 'reunited' with her, or 'together' with her. Even now he doesn't think she's 'his', that they'll be 'reunited' or forever together' or that now he'll 'take her' back from Rhaegar or anything. Even though ne would think that would be his focus.

All Robert indicates is that he thinks he will have an opportunity to see Lyanna, to give her Ned's love. Because they'll both be in the place of death.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

You're constructing an argument based on what you want Robert to say,

Projecting are we?

1 hour ago, frenin said:

think and feel rather than what he's actually saying, thinking and feeling.

Funny how your statement that Robert and Lyanna will now be 'reunited' doesn't match what Robert actually says. 
Being 'reunited' or 'together in death' is something significantly more than just jointly present and able to interact - which is all that Robert indicates.
 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Thats absurd. Of course they are not. These things inform a character's beliefs at a very deep level - deeper than their conscious choices usually.

Yes, they are irrelevant, so far a character doesn't agree with it.  

You can't prove either, you''re operating on the fact that "everyone" thinks one way, ergo Robert too thinks that way, whether he wants to admit it or not and thus he's lying to himself. Your whole argument is based on ad populum and about how someone "should believe about the afterlife".

That's indeed absurd.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

No, they aren't. Nothing about Robert (psychologically) is straightforward. Thats why he's such a mess.

Robert is presented to us as a very human, flawed, failed even (despite his status and advantages) person. We see often how much he is in denial about things, seeing only what suits him.  How he 'sees' things is a complex picture made up of both his conscious choices and beliefs and the things his unconscious mind can work out even when he chooses to ignore them on a conscious level. The same is true for any human being, though some have a stronger or weaker facility for self delusion on a superficial level.
Robert isn't stupid, only weak.

Taking everything that Robert says at face value only ignores everything about GRRM's writing. His characters are human, flawed, and many lie even to themselves, even on their deathbeds. But you can see how they really think and feel in cues in their behaviour and sometimes speech. Robert knew he was a terrible person and worse king, thats part of why he drunk and whored so much,

Everything about Robert is straighforward.

He's presented to us as a depressed man that is going to an early grave through  self destructive hedonism, a man who will gladly reject anything that comes in the way of him getting his pleausure and that hates the Targs with passion. And a man that is pouring all his dreams and hopes and frustrations on Rhaegar and Lyanna. That's as straightforward as it comes. He's a complex character ofc but the core is there.

No, Robert is not stupid, nor any of us have called him that.

I take Robert's words at face value if they do not contradict the lore, nothing we know leads me to believe otherwise, your own piece of evident is cotradicted by him. Rejecting the parts that contradict your pov just because you know Martin's writing will not lead me to take this seriously,  Robert has no reaso to lie to himself on his deathbeds, not especially when he's admitting his many wrongs, wrongs that he had eiter ignored or dismissed previously.

I don't agree on the latter part but i'm not going to discuss it, others will if they care to i guess.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

These are things he didn't want to admit before. He knew them, he just chose to state otherwise or ignore them.

And how isn't Lyanna and Rhaegar being whatever something he didn't want to admit before??

And how do you figure that were things that he knew beforehanded?? It seems to me that you're making an arbitrary selection.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Hardly something he didn't know before. He knew what he was doing then, he just wouldn't face up to it and change. There was no great 'revelation' on his deathbed here.
Admitting it now, on his deathbed, doesn't change anything about his self image. Or make him actually face it - Ned's the one who has to face the results, as Robert indicates.

Something that he didn't know before as it takes much to compare oneself to Aerys, that's a pretty big revelation. How do you know it's something he didn't knoe before??

Admitting now, on his deathbed, changes his self image, he's now sayig out loud what has been of the back of his head for yeard now. 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Same again. There is no great 'revelation' here. He knew it was wrong before, and thats part of the reason he was so angry with Ned for defying him - he knew Ned was right, he just wouldn't admit it.

These things are very different from the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation. That one touches Robert's core as a person in a way that the superficialities of rulership do not. He has internalised his own narrative so deeply that he believes it.  Thus there is no change on his deathbed. He hasn't been 'lying' about the kidnapping, rape and murder, because he truly believes it.
Yet somehow, his unconscious knows its not true. And thus, it slips out in subtle fashion in an unguarded moment of anger, reflecting the reality his heart understands even though his head has chosen a different truth, And he doesn't even notice, because it was unguarded, subtle, and noticing it would cause severe emotional issues for him at a very deep level.

There is a great revelation there, he believes that the Targlings are a threat and need to die, he was so angry with Ned because he openly insulted, which is one, if not the only thing iirc, that actually triggers Robert from his apathy.

That all Targaryens are evil and must die touches Robert's core too and Robert too believes it, he doesn't see children, he sees dragonspawn, his unsconcious knows the truth, how is that?? Unless you're arguing about the 6th sense, if so we must stop right now, that info Robert is hiding from himself must have gone through the same process, Robert had to at some point "known it before",  then  burying it. Which then would not be a revelation and would pop just as easy as the rest do on his deathbed.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

As far as his conscious mind goes, he never was 'denying' it. He has chosen the narrative he believes and since it touches his core, he really believes it, even as he lies dying.
Its only his subconscious that betrays his cognitive dissonance. As always with cognitive dissonance, he can't see it himself. Instead it shows in unconscious ways - in his mis-behaviour (due to self-hate) rather than in his thoughts.

All of his denials touches the core and Robert was believing them all up until his death. Robert blindly believed them at some point, the idea that one yes, the others no, it's purely arbirtrary.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Except, he makes no mention of being 'reunited' with her, or 'together' with her. Even now he doesn't think she's 'his', that they'll be 'reunited' or forever together' or that now he'll 'take her' back from Rhaegar or anything. Even though ne would think that would be his focus.

All Robert indicates is that he thinks he will have an opportunity to see Lyanna, to give her Ned's love. Because they'll both be in the place of death.

By talking with her, he must reunite with her, unless ofc you're assuming that he'll just shout out to her whatever and then part ways, Robert doesn't think there is going to be ay problem with Rhaegar, as he strangely enough doesn't mention him, as if for once he had stopped being a problem as he actually is going to see Lyanna.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Projecting are we?

 

Quote

Thats not how it works though. Rhaegar doesn't 'get' Lyanna just because they are both dead, In fact, it should be the very opposite - if Rhaegar was Lyanna's captor and rapist then in death, even shared death, she should be 'free' of him.
Robert's 'reasoning' is clearly counter to all normal cultural beliefs about the afterlife. 

Your whole argument is related to the proper way to actually regard the dead and that one can't view it differently, that and arbitrary deciding what thoughts of Robert knew and those he didn't even suspect.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Funny how your statement that Robert and Lyanna will now be 'reunited' doesn't match what Robert actually says. 
Being 'reunited' or 'together in death' is something significantly more than just jointly present and able to interact - which is all that Robert indicates.

I've already told you, for them to be able to interact, they have be together first. 

[corbon]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Yes, they are irrelevant, so far a character doesn't agree with it.  

You can't prove either, you''re operating on the fact that "everyone" thinks one way, ergo Robert too thinks that way, whether he wants to admit it or not and thus he's lying to himself. Your whole argument is based on ad populum and about how someone "should believe about the afterlife".

That's indeed absurd.

Robert is not a deep or subtle thinker. Its absurd to think that he believes something highly contrary to the usual cultural narrative when there is a clear and obvious and very easy fit.
Its just as absurd to take everything at face value despite contrary evidence, just because it suits your argument.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Everything about Robert is straighforward.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

He's presented to us as a depressed man that is going to an early grave through  self destructive hedonism, a man who will gladly reject anything that comes in the way of him getting his pleausure and that hates the Targs with passion. And a man that is pouring all his dreams and hopes and frustrations on Rhaegar and Lyanna. That's as straightforward as it comes. He's a complex character ofc but the core is there.

So, is he straightforward, or complex?
He's complex of course, we all are. And self contradictory too - we all are to one extent or another, Robert just more than most because he's an emotional coward that runs away from hard truths. Why is he self destructive? Why can't he move past the distant past? 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I take Robert's words at face value

There's your problem.
The more messed up one is, the less 'face value' there is in one's words.
Robert is a very messed up individual. 

This is a bit pointless and circular.
I say Robert's own words point to his subconscious 'knowing' something different than his conscious beliefs, because thats what the usual meaning of those phrases, in that context, would mean. And because Robert's own words are self-contradictory at different times.
You ignore the usual meaning and insist that his words can only show his conscious beliefs, so he must uniquely believe some pretty weird shit. Even when his beliefs are self-contradictory.
We aren't going to agree.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And how isn't Lyanna and Rhaegar being whatever something he didn't want to admit before??

To admit something, you have to believe it.
He hasn't changed his conscious belief about Lyanna/Rhaegar, even on his deathbed. So there can be no admitting it even now. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And how do you figure that were things that he knew beforehanded?? It seems to me that you're making an arbitrary selection.

Because there is no indication of any great 'revelation'. He doesn't have any new information that 'changes things'. Therefore he already 'knew' the stuff he admits, he just refused to admit it before. He's just facing up to what he already knew now because he can finally do it without having to actually do anything about it.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Something that he didn't know before as it takes much to compare oneself to Aerys, that's a pretty big revelation. How do you know it's something he didn't knoe before??

I'm not sure I parsed that right because its barely intelligible.
Of course he 'knew' it before. How could he not? He knew he was terribly irresponsible and his behaviour was atrocious. Nothing has changed. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Admitting now, on his deathbed, changes his self image, he's now sayig out loud what has been of the back of his head for yeard now. 

And there you go. Admitting yourself that he always knew it, has done for years now. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

There is a great revelation there, he believes that the Targlings are a threat and need to die,

Except he doesn't, does he? He tells Ned to let Dany live. Its not like they suddenly became less of an issue for the kingdom or for his dynasty now. He knew it was wrong before, and he knew Ned was right. He just wouldn't face it honestly.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

That all Targaryens are evil and must die touches Robert's core too

Ahh, no. Others are irrelevant to a person's core. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

and Robert too believes it, he doesn't see children, he sees dragonspawn,

Thats his excuse for not facing the truth, not his real truth. If it was, he wouldn't be changing his mind on his deathbed.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

his unsconcious knows the truth, how is that??

You honestly don't understand the concept?
He has chosen to believe a certain thing. But he must also have some data that he knows contradicts the thing he has fiercely chosen to believe. Because his unconscious mind has processed differently to his conscious mind and the truth he refuses to believe slips out unconsciously, Freudianly I guess. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Unless you're arguing about the 6th sense, if so we must stop right now, that info Robert is hiding from himself must have gone through the same process, Robert had to at some point "known it before",  then  burying it. Which then would not be a revelation and would pop just as easy as the rest do on his deathbed.

Its nothing to do with the sixth sense. Its about fierce devotion to a narrative that rules iron belief in that narrative, regardless on any evidence. And when there is evidence that contradicts the chosen narrative that often leads to cognitive dissonance and mental instability. Which is a large part of why Robert is so terrible as a person. He self hates, and so self-destructs, in part at least, because deep inside he knows his worldview is built upon hollow foundations.  

2 hours ago, frenin said:

All of his denials touches the core

None of them touch his core. They only touch his superficial image.  His Kingship, etc., external things.

His core is who he is as a person, the individual, stripped of all the worldly trappings. Whether he is worthy of love, more than anything else. 
And thats why he can't accept Rhaegar and Lyanna being a voluntary thing. Because that would mean Lyanna rejected him, which leaves him loveless, unworthy of being loved.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

and Robert was believing them all up until his death. Robert blindly believed them at some point,

Just because he said something doesn't mean he truly believed it. Is that so difficult to comprehend?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

the idea that one yes, the others no, it's purely arbirtrary.

Just because you refuse to understand a clear distinction, doesn't make it arbitrary.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

By talking with her, he must reunite with her, unless ofc you're assuming that he'll just shout out to her whatever and then part ways,

You understand better than that, which leads me to believe you are trolling here.

The context of 'reuniting', of 'having' of 'being with' in this situation goes vastly beyond mere joint locale and basic interaction. And you understand this.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Robert doesn't think there is going to be ay problem with Rhaegar, as he strangely enough doesn't mention him, as if for once he had stopped being a problem as he actually is going to see Lyanna.

Indeed. 
Which is contradictory to his earlier words, isn't it? Because Rhaegar 'has her' now (then). But Rhaegar isn't relevant in his mind at the end. Either Rhaegar 'has' her, in which case its a problem when Robert dies too, or Rhaegar doesn't 'have' her. Apparently its both.

Your own argument is self defeating. Rhaegar has her now because they are both dead, together, Yet Rhaegar is not an issue once Robert is dead too and the three of them will be together. Your position doesn't resolve this.

My position does. Robert's conscious mind dismisses Rhaegar because he chooses to believe that he and Lyanna were always destined for each other and he will be with her in the afterlife.
Robert's unconscious mind doesn't agree, hence a Freudian slip (which he didn't even notice) when he was angry which is in complete opposition of his expressed beliefs

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Your whole argument is related to the proper way to actually regard the dead and that one can't view it differently,

Your argument is that Robert is straightforward. Or is it complex? 
Your argument denies that people have internal contradictions.
That Robert believes that Rhaegar 'has' Lyanna because they are both dead, but that apparently dead Rhaegar is irrelevant and will just magically fade out of the picture once dead Robert joins Lyanna.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

that and arbitrary deciding what thoughts of Robert knew and those he didn't even suspect.

There are no revelations on his deathbed. No new information. Therefore, what he knew when dying was only what he knew all along.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

LMAO, I guess Rhaegar has Robert's parents too, and Rickard and Brandon, you know, because they are all also dead. What utter bullshit.

[Lee-Sensei]

23 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

LMAO, I guess Rhaegar has Robert's parents too, and Rickard and Brandon, you know, because they are all also dead. What utter bullshit.

It’s not the same thing. Robert believes that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Rickard, Brandon and Roberts parents didn’t have a sexual relationship (not a consensual one according to Robert) with Lyanna. As he sees it, Robert and Rhaegar fought for Lyanna, he won the fight, but Rhaegar and Lyanna died. That’s why when he dies, he thinks that he’s going to be reunited with her in death.

[frenin]

8 hours ago, corbon said:

Robert is not a deep or subtle thinker. Its absurd to think that he believes something highly contrary to the usual cultural narrative when there is a clear and obvious and very easy fit.
Its just as absurd to take everything at face value despite contrary evidence, just because it suits your argument.

... What contrary evidence?? You're making any sense.

You'd need to know:

- Robert's views on religion.

- Robert's views on the afterlife.

- Robert's views on hell.

 

You don't know either, in fact you admit that as much, you're basing your argument in an ad populum and you're admitting that as much.  How can i take you seriously if your whole argument it's just a fallacy??

 

10 hours ago, corbon said:

So, is he straightforward, or complex?
He's complex of course, we all are. And self contradictory too - we all are to one extent or another, Robert just more than most because he's an emotional coward that runs away from hard truths. Why is he self destructive? Why can't he move past the distant past? 

There's no dichotomy there, we're all complex, that doesn't mean that our thoughts and problems and our response to said problems are not straightforward.

Why is he self destructive?? Because he's trapped in a life he doesn't like and he's frustrated with it. Why can't he move past the distant past?? Because the distant past serves as a emotional container, he's pouring all he's failed dreams, frustrations, hopes, yadda yadda yadda, in said distant past.  

 

 

Quote

There's your problem.

The more messed up one is, the less 'face value' there is in one's words.

Robert is a very messed up individual.

Yet that doesn't mean us giving him traits, regardless of whether i agree or not with your take, I don't, making up ad hoc facts to support one's arguments is simply absurd.

 

 

11 hours ago, corbon said:

To admit something, you have to believe it.
He hasn't changed his conscious belief about Lyanna/Rhaegar, even on his deathbed. So there can be no admitting it even now. 

You have to face it first, Robert's facing all the truths he has buried until his deathbed... Except...

 

 

11 hours ago, corbon said:

Because there is no indication of any great 'revelation'. He doesn't have any new information that 'changes things'. Therefore he already 'knew' the stuff he admits, he just refused to admit it before. He's just facing up to what he already knew now because he can finally do it without having to actually do anything about it.

How and why do you need a great revelation??

 

 

12 hours ago, corbon said:

I'm not sure I parsed that right because its barely intelligible.
Of course he 'knew' it before. How could he not? He knew he was terribly irresponsible and his behaviour was atrocious. Nothing has changed. 

This is something i don't understand, you're on one hand saying that he could delude himself into believing one thing and on the other that it was impossible for him not to be aware of his shortcomings. You're cherrypicking one way or other.

 

 

12 hours ago, corbon said:

And there you go. Admitting yourself that he always knew it, has done for years now. 

Do you understand what it being on the back of his head implies right?? 

 

 

12 hours ago, corbon said:

None of them touch his core. They only touch his superficial image. His Kingship, etc., external things.

His core is who he is as a person, the individual, stripped of all the worldly trappings. Whether he is worthy of love, more than anything else. 

And thats why he can't accept Rhaegar and Lyanna being a voluntary thing. Because that would mean Lyanna rejected him, which leaves him loveless, unworthy of being loved.

All of them touches him at his core, whether he deserves or not the Throne he took, whether he deserves or not the life he took by force or not.

One of the earliest introductions to the character, he's confessing Ned that he dreads the Throne so much that there are nights he wished to have been killed in the Trident.

Someone rejecting other doesn't mean that one's unworthy of love, I don't think that he ever felt unworthy of love because Cersei didn't love him, it's likelier than the "truth" would've freed him from the  burden of Lyanna's death and he actually started to resent her and Rhaegar instead of actually going to mental gymnastics to keep what he once believed true.

 

13 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats his excuse for not facing the truth, not his real truth. If it was, he wouldn't be changing his mind on his deathbed.

Do you really believe that one's unable to actually change his mind??

That one's "truth" remains unchangeable even in one's deathbed?? Never to change?? Or to recognize one's past mistakes?? That either you see them as a mistake from the get go or you never get to realize you were wrong all along??

That's a pretty reductionist view and a wrong one at that.

 

 

13 hours ago, corbon said:

You honestly don't understand the concept?
He has chosen to believe a certain thing. But he must also have some data that he knows contradicts the thing he has fiercely chosen to believe. Because his unconscious mind has processed differently to his conscious mind and the truth he refuses to believe slips out unconsciously, Freudianly I guess. 

I do understand the concept, I'm telling you there's no difference between thus and that.

 

 

14 hours ago, corbon said:

Just because he said something doesn't mean he truly believed it. Is that so difficult to comprehend?

It is not actually, what's it's more difficult to believe is that someone is lying or hiding something because he's not acting as you would.

 

 

14 hours ago, corbon said:

The context of 'reuniting', of 'having' of 'being with' in this situation goes vastly beyond mere joint locale and basic interaction. And you understand this.

It actually doesn't for me, but english it's not my first language. I'm just as fine saying that he expects seeing her again.

 

 

14 hours ago, corbon said:

Indeed. 
Which is contradictory to his earlier words, isn't it? Because Rhaegar 'has her' now (then). But Rhaegar isn't relevant in his mind at the end. Either Rhaegar 'has' her, in which case its a problem when Robert dies too, or Rhaegar doesn't 'have' her. Apparently its both.

It's not contradictory at all actually, the only reason why Rhaegar had her was because they were both dead, Robert being dead solves the issue in his mind as he's reaching the stage they are now, see that he doesn't mention Cersei either, he doesn't have her anymore, he's going to die.

 

14 hours ago, corbon said:

Just because you refuse to understand a clear distinction, doesn't make it arbitrary.

Just because you believe there's a clear distinction doesn't mean it actually exists.

 

14 hours ago, corbon said:

Your argument is that Robert is straightforward. Or is it complex? 
Your argument denies that people have internal contradictions.
That Robert believes that Rhaegar 'has' Lyanna because they are both dead, but that apparently dead Rhaegar is irrelevant and will just magically fade out of the picture once dead Robert joins Lyanna.

No, my position is that his thoughts are straightforward.

The fact that Rhaegar, magically Fades, highlights it, Robert doesn't care anymore about Rhaegar once he's dead, why would he?? He's not an impediment no more, he's going to see Lyanna again.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

LMAO, I guess Rhaegar has Robert's parents too, and Rickard and Brandon, you know, because they are all also dead. What utter bullshit.

Robert it's not talking about his parents too, nor Rhaegar was involved in their deaths.

[corbon]

39 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It’s not the same thing. Robert believes that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Rickard, Brandon and Roberts parents didn’t have a sexual relationship (not a consensual one according to Robert) with Lyanna. As he sees it, Robert and Rhaegar fought for Lyanna, he won the fight, but Rhaegar and Lyanna died. That’s why when he dies, he thinks that he’s going to be reunited with her in death.

But... Rhaegar has her. So is he going to fight Rhaegar for her again?

Do you see the inconsistency between thinking that Rhaegar 'has' her because they are both dead but Robert will 'have her' now he's dead and Rhaegar is irrelevant? 

The funny thing is, there are a multitude of hints that there was something other than kidnap, rape and abuse going no between Rhaegar and Lyanna. And only one contemporaneous source, a source with no verifiable access to the real data, Robert, who claims rape. So its not really a surprise that even Robert, with his claims of rape, appears to subconsciously not believe his own hate-propaganda.

 

@freninour Weltanschauung are just too different. 

[Lee-Sensei]

44 minutes ago, corbon said:

But... Rhaegar has her. So is he going to fight Rhaegar for her again?

Do you see the inconsistency between thinking that Rhaegar 'has' her because they are both dead but Robert will 'have her' now he's dead and Rhaegar is irrelevant? 

The funny thing is, there are a multitude of hints that there was something other than kidnap, rape and abuse going no between Rhaegar and Lyanna. And only one contemporaneous source, a source with no verifiable access to the real data, Robert, who claims rape. So its not really a surprise that even Robert, with his claims of rape, appears to subconsciously not believe his own hate-propaganda.

 

@freninour Weltanschauung are just too different. 

No. I don’t see the inconsistency at all. Rhaegar and Lyanna died. Robert lived and married Cersei. When he dies, he says that he’d be with Lyanna again. I don’t see any other way to look at this. If Lyanna went with a Rhaegar willingly, Robert didn’t know about it.

[corbon]

40 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

No. I don’t see the inconsistency at all. Rhaegar and Lyanna died. Robert lived and married Cersei. When he dies, he says that he’d be with Lyanna again. I don’t see any other way to look at this.

How does that fit with her being 'had' by Rhaegar after they died?

40 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If Lyanna went with a Rhaegar willingly, Robert didn’t know about it.

He didn't acknowledge it, agreed that far at least. I think he literally convinced himself that his own narrative was true even when underneath he 'knew' it wasn't.
His own confused, frustrated words were that despite him killing Rhaegar, Rhaegar still 'won' - Rhaegar 'had' Lyanna while he was stuck with Cersei.
In short, he 'knew' that Rhaegar wasn't Lyanna's rapist and murderer, he just couldn't accept it. But even as he denied any such possibility, he 'knew' it enough for his own clear 'reality' to be confused and inconsistent.

Quote

"Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup.

Or do you subscribe to the idea that Robert believes that murderer/rapists get to 'have' their victims in the afterlife as well?

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

But... Rhaegar has her. So is he going to fight Rhaegar for her again?

Do you see the inconsistency between thinking that Rhaegar 'has' her because they are both dead but Robert will 'have her' now he's dead and Rhaegar is irrelevant? 

The funny thing is, there are a multitude of hints that there was something other than kidnap, rape and abuse going no between Rhaegar and Lyanna. And only one contemporaneous source, a source with no verifiable access to the real data, Robert, who claims rape. So its not really a surprise that even Robert, with his claims of rape, appears to subconsciously not believe his own hate-propaganda.

 

@freninour Weltanschauung are just too different. 

They can write walls of text, but it won't change how illogical and ridiculous their argument is. Can't discuss with irrational. If Robert believed dying was enough to be with Lyanna he would have done it fifteen years ago. He should think Rhaegar is burning in the deepest pit of seven hells. He should think Lyanna is reunited with her father and brother. Instead he thinks Rhaegar has Lyanna. Not because they and millions of other people are all dead, but because she wanted Rhaegar back, and didn't want Robert.

[James West]

It matters very little if Lyanna ran away or got kidnapped.  Family pride was on the line.  The Starks were never going to admit this publicly.  She was engaged and then broke her oath.  They wanted her back so they can make good on the family's promise to Robert.  She was loved as well. 

[Lee-Sensei]

6 hours ago, corbon said:

How does that fit with her being 'had' by Rhaegar after they died?

He didn't acknowledge it, agreed that far at least. I think he literally convinced himself that his own narrative was true even when underneath he 'knew' it wasn't.
His own confused, frustrated words were that despite him killing Rhaegar, Rhaegar still 'won' - Rhaegar 'had' Lyanna while he was stuck with Cersei.
In short, he 'knew' that Rhaegar wasn't Lyanna's rapist and murderer, he just couldn't accept it. But even as he denied any such possibility, he 'knew' it enough for his own clear 'reality' to be confused and inconsistent.

Or do you subscribe to the idea that Robert believes that murderer/rapists get to 'have' their victims in the afterlife as well?

I don’t know what else to say. They’re together in death. Robert was alive with Cersei. It doesn’t mean that he thought Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, anymore than there was love in his marriage. It means that they were dead and Robert and Cersei were alive. Which is why he says that he’s going to her on his deathbed.

[frenin]

19 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

They can write walls of text, but it won't change how illogical and ridiculous their argument is. Can't discuss with irrational. If Robert believed dying was enough to be with Lyanna he would have done it fifteen years ago. He should think Rhaegar is burning in the deepest pit of seven hells. He should think Lyanna is reunited with her father and brother. Instead he thinks Rhaegar has Lyanna. Not because they and millions of other people are all dead, but because she wanted Rhaegar back, and didn't want Robert.

 

As i said to @corbon, to take your statement seriously you should know what Robert's religious pov is. Do you even know if Robert actually believes in hell for him to "have to act one way and not the other"??

Do you know what's his take of the afterlife?? If you don't know, and you don't, why do you presume he should act one way and not the other??  That's actually the irrational, and arrogant, bit of this. You don't believe that you need to know that because ofc you know better.

[corbon]

14 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I don’t know what else to say. They’re together in death. Robert was alive with Cersei. It doesn’t mean that he thought Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, anymore than there was love in his marriage. It means that they were dead and Robert and Cersei were alive. Which is why he says that he’s going to her on his deathbed.

ok, so you do subscribe to the idea that Robert believes murderer-rapists and their victims are together in the afterlife.

[Lee-Sensei]

51 minutes ago, corbon said:

ok, so you do subscribe to the idea that Robert believes murderer-rapists and their victims are together in the afterlife.

I subscribe to the idea that a guy who thinks that he’s going to be reunited with his dead fiancée when he dies, doesn’t believe that she loved someone else and rejected him. Yes.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I subscribe to the idea that a guy who thinks that he’s going to be reunited with his dead fiancée when he dies, doesn’t believe that she loved someone else and rejected him. Yes.

With Robert Baratheon, there's what he believes and there's what he knows (subconsciously) and those are frequently two very different things. Of course he doesn't believe that Lyanna rejected him, yet subconsciously he knows that she did.

Otherwise, his bitter statement to Ned that Rhaegar "somehow [he] still won" and that he "has Lyanna now" doesn't really make much sense.