Star Trek: Keeping Up With the Cardassians

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Tyria said:

 

*Board ate my previous post...grr*

 I knew someone would disagree! I actually liked him when the show originally aired. It was during my numerous re-watches that he started to get on my nerves. I like him more in the funny scenes, but it's hard to get past the creeper aspects of the character. The whole episode with Sarina is just so gross. I mean, she'd rather go back to being catatonic (or pretending to be) than be pressured into a relationship she clearly didn't want. You could tell even Miles was uncomfortable with his behaviour, but he just said "but she's your patient" not "back the fuck off". And the whole scene where she's upset and apologizing to him?!! Even when he leaned in for the kiss as she was leaving I was like nooo!!!! Get away from her! Just let her go! And he doesn't learn from it.

Despite all that, he's still a better character than the vast majority (almost all) the characters on the other shows.

Indeed.

If nothing else Bashir and Garak are great together. Not gona lie, the very first episode of DS9 I saw was Come Along Home, which naturally I hated and I was ready to give up on the show right there. My friends however told me, to give it another try and that that episode was one of the worst. I trusted them and eventually did give DS9 another try. The next episode I caught was the James Bond one, which was almost entirely an hour of Bashir and Garak just going on a crazy adventure in the holodeck and I instantly fell in love with both characters and wanted to see more of them together.

[Tyria]

3 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Oh yeah, that episode definitely did not show off the character at his best. But what I appreciate about that episode is that it didn't let Bashir's behaviour off the hook; he was clearly in the wrong and this was shown (whereas early in the episode, I was afraid they were going to try to romanticize it). But you're right that the skeevy elements of his character never quite go away..

Still, what a performance in this scene:

 

 

2 hours ago, sifth said:

If nothing else Bashir and Garak are great together. Not gona lie, the very first episode of DS9 I saw was Come Along Home, which naturally I hated and I was ready to give up on the show right there. My friends however told me, to give it another try and that that episode was one of the worst. I trusted them and eventually did give DS9 another try. The next episode I caught was the James Bond one, which was almost entirely an hour of Bashir and Garak just going on a crazy adventure in the holodeck and I instantly fell in love with both characters and wanted to see more of them together.

I do love Bashir and Garak together! That and his friendship with Miles. He's not completely terrible just...icky.

Yeah...Move Along Home. I used to skip it on re-watches. This time I just skipped the song parts and it wasn't so bad. It's stuck in my head now though, so thanks guys

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Oh yeah, that episode definitely did not show off the character at his best. But what I appreciate about that episode is that it didn't let Bashir's behaviour off the hook; he was clearly in the wrong and this was shown (whereas early in the episode, I was afraid they were going to try to romanticize it). But you're right that the skeevy elements of his character never quite go away..

Still, what a performance in this scene:

Yeah, Siddig was really not very good in Season 1. He got a lot better in Season 2 and then through the rest of the show, and of course turned in quite good performances in later projects (even Game of Thrones where he was clearly annoyed by the writers not knowing what the fuck they were doing with his storyline).

I do like Move Along Home from the meta-Star Trek POV. It looks like a standard piece of Star Trek BS where aliens are treating our crew like pawns in some game and if they lose the game, they die for real, so they put their faith in someone because they know he'll come through and save them. Except Quark doesn't, fucks up the game (twice) and gets them all killed. Then the aliens let them go and look insulted when they ask why they're still alive: "It's only a game!"

[DaveSumm]

Oh dear. That episode actively irritated me for the most part, easily the weakest of the season. 

Spoiler

So Vulcans and Romulans living on the same planet is a sensitive situation right now, delicate diplomacy is needed. But fuck that, Michael needs her data for her super advanced theory of “ThEsE tHrEe TiMeS aRe DiFfErEnT”, so in she barges, demanding that lots of important people fill a room and hear what she has to say. Let’s leave aside the completely ridiculous coincidence that her Mother happens to be assigned as her advocate (conflict of interest? Anyone? No?). So Michael tells them all about her theory, and they say “actually we’ve looked at our data, which has thousands more data points and people far more intelligent than you have have looked at it for a century, and we’ve concluded that the Burn did originate on this planet.”

How the fuck was that not the end of it right there. But nah, Michael needs to see it cos she’s smarter and has her theory; you know, the three time stamps she’s gathered. So come on, give it to her. Oh shit, this might cause a rift between Romulans and Vulcans? Well, because Michael is so awesome and humble, she recognises that it’s not worth that, you can keep your data. Oh, thanks so much Michael.

Wow, we’re so impressed with your humility, you know what? Here, take it. I mean, our scientists couldn’t possibly triangulate an origin point based on some time stamps, only you and the Discovery can. Oh and also, I just feel the need to mention, that we all think Spock was awesome because you’re so awesome.

I feel actively insulted by so much of that. When promoting Tilly isn’t even the worst part of the episode you know something’s gone wrong. You know who they should’ve given the data to? Captain Saru, for being a stand up fucking gentleman the whole episode. Impeccable manners, clearly a far more skilled diplomat and all round payer-of-attention-to-delicate-situations than Michael. Shame he then made an ensign his commander, but hey ho. (Hey Tilly, maybe don’t ask the crew if they mind terribly you taking a promotion, and then cry when they all say yes. Wouldn’t catch Riker doing that).

Haven’t felt the need to rant like that about an episode in a long time, but that was complete bullshit.

[Mindwalker]

@DaveSumm , amen to that!

Plus, remember when Nhan

Spoiler

was "too close" to talk down seed ship guy because he was of her own species, so Michael was THE person to do it? Different this time around, huh? I mean, she was raised a Vulcan, plus all the unresolved, tear-drenched issues between her and Spock, her and Sarek... but NOOOO, now that's fine. Not too close at all.

To add insult to the injury of the whole Vulcan/ Romulan debacle, the ending was extremely predictable. Of course they'd change their minds because of the goodness of her heart. Totally... logical.

Now, off to Michael single-handedly reuniting the Federation and saving the galaxy.

It's sad that the writers don't trust their protagonist character(s). Otherwise, they wouldn't NEED to do all this stuff to prop them up.

In the same vein, back to Tilly: Everyone seems to rave about

Spoiler

the scene where all her crewmates told Tilly to take the promotion. I thought it was cringe. You get away with that when it's your crew telling you they won't stay behind in the DQ (barely), but... come on.

 

[Rippounet]

Well, that was bad.

Pretty much everything I dislike in Discovery concentrated in one episode.

The world-building is cool though.

At this point, I think I keep watching this show for Saru.

[karaddin]

@Tyria you're not alone in your feelings about Bashir. Although I also didn't love Miles so less affection for Bashir's dynamic with him as well. The show sure made Miles suffer though, like it wanted to make me feel bad for not liking him.

[Lightning Lord]

11 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Well, that was bad.

Pretty much everything I dislike in Discovery concentrated in one episode.

The world-building is cool though.

At this point, I think I keep watching this show for Saru.

So much this.

This episode seemed specifically designed to piss me off.

 

Can I ask - why is Michael breathy voicing everything? Sonequa Martin-Green has a really pleasant speaking voice (and a delightful laugh) and I don't understand why 90% of what she says is delivered as though she's trying to expel all of the air from her lungs. She's clearly being directed to do so but I do not understand.

 

DS9: Bashir on his own is obnoxious AF. I like that most of the time we're supposed to find him obnoxious. I love him + Garak and him + O'Brien. Such fun to watch those often-bizarre interactions.

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, Lightning Lord said:

Can I ask - why is Michael breathy voicing everything? Sonequa Martin-Green has a really pleasant speaking voice (and a delightful laugh) and I don't understand why 90% of what she says is delivered as though she's trying to expel all of the air from her lungs. She's clearly being directed to do so but I do not understand.

This was odd, and I think it's new. I don't remember it being an issue in the first two seasons, but for at least the last couple of episodes she's been whispering half her dialogue.

[sifth]

12 hours ago, karaddin said:

@Tyria you're not alone in your feelings about Bashir. Although I also didn't love Miles so less affection for Bashir's dynamic with him as well. The show sure made Miles suffer though, like it wanted to make me feel bad for not liking him.

The writers on the show loved torturing the character. Each season they insisted on having at least one "O'Brien must suffer episode". Out of all of them, the one where he was trapped in the mental prison is my favorite.

[Ran]

@Lightning Lord

Yeah, the breathy voice thing has been getting on my nerves pretty much from the start of this season (even singled it out here). It's decidedly annoying, very actorly, and I wish she'd stop doing it so often. No doubt it's partially direction, but I think it's definitely a choice she's made for the character and she's falling back onto it way too often.

[Werthead]

So I was trying to work out the rationale for selecting Tilly as Acting XO. Several points occur:

Discovery is currently operating on a restricted number of crew. The ship is down to 89 crew (from 136 at the start of Season 1), given Nhan's departure and Burnham's rejoining, and the addition of Adira. That means they don't have a vast number of crew to call upon. A larger number of the 88 will be noncoms, cadets and other ensigns as well (not to mention Georgiou, whom I think we can assume is outside the chain of command entirely). There's also a good chance that most of the career-minded officers, especially the older ones with family back home, elected to remain behind with the Enterprise rather than travel into the future.

Looking at the Discovery crew mentioned so far, apart from Burnham there is only Commander still definitively on board: engineer Jett Reno (several previously-mentioned commanders seem to have died in action or left the ship before the jump).  The only surviving Lt. Commanders are Culber and Stamets. The only full Lieutenants that are still definitively extant are Detmer, Nilsson and Rhys. The only Lieutenant JGs still extant are Owosekun, Linus and Bryce.

So, as far as we can tell, there are only eleven people definitively above Tilly in the command structure who are still alive and on the ship. Obviously we remove Saru and Burnham and that drops the number to nine. Previous Trek incarnations have made it clear that under ordinary circumstances you would never have a Chief Medical Officer or Chief Engineer as XO, they're far too busy and are not on the bridge enough (Crusher being acting commanding officer in Descent was a major anomaly, and they note that at the time). Riker doesn't even consider LaForge or Crusher for XO in The Best of Both Worlds. So that removes both Culber and Stamets from contention, dropping the number to seven. Detmer is having medical issues and isn't great at dealing with people at the best of times, so we can recuse her. Reno is out of contention for the same reason as Stamets and I suspect would laugh at the idea, so five.

Rhys is Chief Tactical Officer, a position that we have seen combined with XO before (with Chekov on the Reliant); Nilsson is Spore Drive Operations Officer, a role that does not seem particularly important unless a jump is imminent. Owosekun is Conn, Linus is a junior science officer and Bryce is Communications. We've seen Conn officers in the command track before (most famously Sulu), and Science Officer duties are compatible with being XO (as with Spock and Burnham). I don't see a major issue with Communications Officer being combined with XO duties.

Tilly should really be a Lt. JG by now anyway given her contributions to the ship's survival on numerous occasions and her work on the Spore Drive, and has been seemingly overlooked only because the insanity of everything has meant there's not been enough time to deal with promotions. However, Owosekun, Linus and Bryce would still have seniority even at the same rank, and Rhys and Nilsson would still be superior officers.

Nilsson was also apparently Acting XO at the start of the season before Burnham showed up, so I can't fathom why she wouldn't be asked to retain that role. She seemed good in the position, doesn't have a "day job" that would onerously interfere with the position of XO and has seniority. In fact, she seems to be the highest-ranking person on the bridge crew after Saru and Burnham.

The only thing I can think of - and they sort of allude to this - is that Saru wants a more compliant first officer who has the respect of the crew, is a good people person (the XO role has effectively a HR admin component) and someone he can later demote if necessary and it wouldn't be a big deal. My main concern in the role would be that although Tilly is a great problem-solver, she's not necessarily great under immediate pressure in an emergency situation, and if she could make hard command decisions in that moment. I think she has the potential to do that later on, but we haven't seen great evidence for it so far. To give her more authority in the role, Saru also really needs to give her that promotion. 

 

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

@Lightning Lord

Yeah, the breathy voice thing has been getting on my nerves pretty much from the start of this season (even singled it out here). It's decidedly annoying, very actorly, and I wish she'd stop doing it so often. No doubt it's partially direction, but I think it's definitely a choice she's made for the character and she's falling back onto it way too often.

Yeah, it's starting to approach "Aidan Gillen as Littlefinger post-Season 2" levels of oddness.

[DaveSumm]

15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

*Well researched good points*

Nice. Although from Starfleet’s point of view, surely the obvious choice would be a 32nd century savvy, qualified commander. They’re a little depleted from their hay day, but they must be able to spare a commander. Especially given the insane importance and tactical advantage of a spore-drive in a post-Burn world. Kind of a T’Pol for the ship, to make sure things are going smoothly and to have an experienced and well travelled officer on board.

[Werthead]

Just now, DaveSumm said:

Nice. Although from Starfleet’s point of view, surely the obvious choice would be a 32nd century savvy, qualified commander. They’re a little depleted from their hay day, but they must be able to spare a commander. Especially given the insane importance and tactical advantage of a spore-drive in a post-Burn world. Kind of a T’Pol for the ship, to make sure things are going smoothly and to have an experienced and well travelled officer on board.

I think Saru's arguments for keeping their crew intact as a unit made sense to the Admiral so - temporarily - he's willing to let them sort their own shit out, but would change that if he feels it necessary. I suspect the 32nd Century ships can almost fly themselves, so they don't necessarily have as many spare crewmembers hanging around as you'd expect.

I do think that's an ace in the hole to cause conflict in later seasons.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why they're not trying to replicate the spore drive. The problems they had previously with the mycelial network being damaged were down to the Mirror Universe fucking around with it in a reckless manner, but since they were stopped and the Discovery crew found how to use it safely, that shouldn't be a problem in applying it on a larger scale.

[DaveSumm]

23 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I'm a bit puzzled as to why they're not trying to replicate the spore drive. The problems they had previously with the mycelial network being damaged were down to the Mirror Universe fucking around with it in a reckless manner, but since they were stopped and the Discovery crew found how to use it safely, that shouldn't be a problem in applying it on a larger scale.

Plus, they have programmable matter now... so you’d think it’d be easy. I forget why Stamets is so critical to the system, what exactly is special about him?

[Poobah]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Plus, they have programmable matter now... so you’d think it’d be easy. I forget why Stamets is so critical to the system, what exactly is special about him?

He jammed a bunch of tardigrade DNA into himself or something if I remember rightly.

[Denvek]

14 minutes ago, Poobah said:

He jammed a bunch of tardigrade DNA into himself or something if I remember rightly.

That could be a reason Starfleet aren't expanding the spore drive program, assuming the 32nd century Federation still has same the eugenics laws. And given those laws survived from pre-Federation (possibly even pre-First Contact) times through to the 24th century, I'd assume they're still around in some form.

[Ran]

I really don't think there's any real justification for Tilly jumping ahead of a bunch of people short of the fact that the writers haven't really developed any of the other characters, hence Tilly has to be it. Nilsson, at the very least, is clearly getting snubbed and jumped over for a role she has previously played already and who should be taking this as a very public rebuke from the captain.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if they have it turn out that Saru chose Tilly for all the wrong reasons -- basically finding someone with pretty much every opposite quality to Burnham -- to make himself feel more secure, and that it ends up being disastrous with resentment in the crew festering despite the early encouragement where they fell into a mass delusion that it was okay and with Tilly simply being no good at it.

But I don't think they'll do that.

[Werthead]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

I really don't think there's any real justification for Tilly jumping ahead of a bunch of people short of the fact that the writers haven't really developed any of the other characters, hence Tilly has to be it. Nilsson, at the very least, is clearly getting snubbed and jumped over for a role she has previously played already and who should be taking this as a very public rebuke from the captain.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if they have it turn out that Saru chose Tilly for all the wrong reasons -- basically finding someone with pretty much every opposite quality to Burnham -- to make himself feel more secure, and that it ends up being disastrous with resentment in the crew festering despite the early encouragement where they fell into a mass delusion that it was okay and with Tilly simply being no good at it.

It's entirely possible that after doing the job for a few days or whatever, Nilsson decided noooope, it wasn't for her.

It'd be preferable to actually see that on screen though.

[Maltaran]

I have never heard the name Nilsson before. Is she the blond woman?