Star Trek: Keeping Up With the Cardassians

[Mindwalker]

Ah, Farscape is another one I always wanted to watch but somehow never got around to it.

[Mindwalker]

After 10 minutes of The Expansion I'm suffering from a major depression, so I think I'll check out the Mandlorian first...

PS: I don't watch any Reality TV, so it was only yesterday that I finally 'got' the title of this thread, LOL!

[karaddin]

Yeah I agree that DS9 didn't suffer from the "character reset" after each episode issue. I don't think the impact was quite as heavy as Farscape for the most part, but it's in the right part of the spectrum and you see it with all the characters. There's a reason I needed to turn to Voyager for my example of doing it terribly, but I think TNG and TOS also suffered from it? Maybe not to the same absurd extent but that's a high bar.

@Plessiez we do not speak of Jeremiah Crichton nor include it in any rewatch lol. I'd even advise a new viewer to skip it on the first run through.

[Toth]

23 minutes ago, karaddin said:

There's a reason I needed to turn to Voyager for my example of doing it terribly, but I think TNG and TOS also suffered from it? Maybe not to the same absurd extent but that's a high bar.

TOS didn't have many episodes that touched the characters involved, at most a character had to leave a love interest behind and was a bit sad until the next problem of the week hit the Enterprise. So Kirk's brother was killed by space lasagna? Oh well, another day in the office I guess. The main focus point of continuity was the state of the cold war against the Klingons at any given point, what with the Organia episode being referenced several times as a significant change.

TNG is a peculiar case. I have seen several times people complaining about why things like The Inner Light didn't impact as massively in Picard's character as it should have and... well, yeah, it was downplayed in that the only effect was Picard picking up playing the flute. Then again, there was a distinct continuity with Worf and Alexander, Klingon politics and background conflicts with Romulans and Cardassians (and the one with the Ferengi that got doggedly aborted early on for being too silly). But stuff like the relationship of Picard and Crusher went nowhere while Troi's affair with Worf was the oddest thing ever as it was rather haphazardly shoehorned in in two episodes or so (Jadzia in DS9 made a whole lot more sense as a partner for him, but even there I found it a little rushed) and it is no surprise that the movies forgot it ever happened and snapped back to Troi/Riker.

[Derfel Cadarn]

2 hours ago, Toth said:

TOS didn't have many episodes that touched the characters involved, at most a character had to leave a love interest behind and was a bit sad until the next problem of the week hit the Enterprise. So Kirk's brother was killed by space lasagna? Oh well, another day in the office I guess. The main focus point of continuity was the state of the cold war against the Klingons at any given point, what with the Organia episode being referenced several times as a significant change.

TNG is a peculiar case. I have seen several times people complaining about why things like The Inner Light didn't impact as massively in Picard's character as it should have and... well, yeah, it was downplayed in that the only effect was Picard picking up playing the flute. Then again, there was a distinct continuity with Worf and Alexander, Klingon politics and background conflicts with Romulans and Cardassians (and the one with the Ferengi that got doggedly aborted early on for being too silly). But stuff like the relationship of Picard and Crusher went nowhere while Troi's affair with Worf was the oddest thing ever as it was rather haphazardly shoehorned in in two episodes or so (Jadzia in DS9 made a whole lot more sense as a partner for him, but even there I found it a little rushed) and it is no surprise that the movies forgot it ever happened and snapped back to Troi/Riker.

In DS9 they retconned Worf/Alexander somewhat, as if Alexander was barely on the Enterprise. Which was weird

[sifth]

10 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

In DS9 they retconned Worf/Alexander somewhat, as if Alexander was barely on the Enterprise. Which was weird

Don't the also make Alexander a teenager, even though not a whole lot of time passes between the final episode of TNG and when Alexander shows up on DS9, only 2 or 3 years I think. Do Klingons grow up quicker than humans or something or is this just a plothole or something like that?

[DaveSumm]

31 minutes ago, sifth said:

Don't the also make Alexander a teenager, even though not a whole lot of time passes between the final episode of TNG and when Alexander shows up on DS9, only 2 or 3 years I think. Do Klingons grow up quicker than humans or something or is this just a plothole or something like that?

I think the DS9 writers realised we hadn’t seen a Klingon child age, so they could make the rules up purely for the concept they wanted; Worf having a teenage son. He also had a personality transplant so it stretched belief that it was even the same character.

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

Don't the also make Alexander a teenager, even though not a whole lot of time passes between the final episode of TNG and when Alexander shows up on DS9, only 2 or 3 years I think. Do Klingons grow up quicker than humans or something or is this just a plothole or something like that?

They had a think about it and decided that Klingons' warrior nature comes from Qo'noS being a harsh environment and that would encourage them to mature and age much faster than humans, whilst also being able to live roughly twice as long. Although TNG themselves created the issue by having Alexander aging super-fast on the show themselves.

Alexander was conceived in 2365 (in the TNG Season 2 episode The Emissary), born offscreen in 2366 (during TNG's third season) and met Worf on the Enterprise-D in 2367 (in the TNG Season 4 episode Reunion). He returned to the Enterprise in 2368 (in the TNG Season 5 episode New Ground).

So when he returned to the Enterprise-D he was only two years old but was played by a 10-year-old actor. We last see him in 2370 in Firstborn (TNG Season 7) when he's 4 years old but where the actor playing him is now 12.

His first appearance on DS9 is in 2374 in the DS9 Season 6 episode Sons and Daughters, where the new actor playing him was 21 but he was intended to look around 15. In real terms he was only 8 years old!

[Mindwalker]

I've watched the latest DSC installment and am bored to tears. Maybe the rest will surprise me...

[Denvek]

Finally someone calls Michael out on her bullshit

Spoiler

and she shoots him into space.

 

[Werthead]

The latest episode was rote, but it did have a really intriguing core idea that it seems to have undersold.

Spoiler

The idea of Osyyra really wanting peace is a really intriguing idea and it would have thrown them off from doing the standard run around shooting things ending, but having her revert to supervillain type within three minutes was lazy.

Although the admiral pointing out she'd need to stand trial because, y'know, of all her genociding is reasonable and in keeping with the precedent of how DS9 ended (allowing peace with the Dominion and basically amnesty for all its troops, but the female Changeling needed to stand trial).

On 12/31/2020 at 12:25 AM, Werthead said:

Alexander was conceived in 2365 (in the TNG Season 2 episode The Emissary), born offscreen in 2366 (during TNG's third season) and met Worf on the Enterprise-D in 2367 (in the TNG Season 4 episode Reunion). He returned to the Enterprise in 2368 (in the TNG Season 5 episode New Ground).

So when he returned to the Enterprise-D he was only two years old but was played by a 10-year-old actor. We last see him in 2370 in Firstborn (TNG Season 7) when he's 4 years old but where the actor playing him is now 12.

His first appearance on DS9 is in 2374 in the DS9 Season 6 episode Sons and Daughters, where the new actor playing him was 21 but he was intended to look around 15. In real terms he was only 8 years old!

To really confuse things, I just passed Time's Orphan in my DS9 rewatch, where Dax says that Alexander was four years old when he joined Worf on the Enterprise. Even assuming they're talking about New Ground rather than Reunion, that's still rather inaccurate (he'd have just turned 3). I think they were rounding up (rather generously) to try to sell it a bit better, but it's still not really convincing.

Star Trek is rather poor at keeping its own canon straight though. I was debating the size of the Federation with one of the Star Trek novel writers on another forum and that's an even more massive can of worms for something pretty fundamental to the franchise.

[Mindwalker]

3 hours ago, Denvek said:

Finally someone calls Michael out on her bullshit

  Hide contents

and she shoots him into space.

 

Spoiler

Oh, but Burnham is the hero here, the needs of the many (unless it's her own future bf who needs rescuing). After they, I mean she has rescued the Discovery and the universe, Stamets will see the error of his ways and apologize.

40 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The latest episode was rote, but it did have a really intriguing core idea that it seems to have undersold.

  Hide contents

The idea of Osyyra really wanting peace is a really intriguing idea and it would have thrown them off from doing the standard run around shooting things ending, but having her revert to supervillain type within three minutes was lazy.

Although the admiral pointing out she'd need to stand trial because, y'know, of all her genociding is reasonable and in keeping with the precedent of how DS9 ended (allowing peace with the Dominion and basically amnesty for all its troops, but the female Changeling needed to stand trial).

 

Spoiler

I agree. I liked the Vance/ O. scenes. Had they developed her/ the Chain a bit earlier, it would have been even more riveting. Lazyness again.

Btw., goodbye, Ran. I gave them props wen they didn't kill him off in the escape episode. Should have known they only saved that for later.

Yeah, mass murderers may serve/ live/ be mourned after their departure on the fastest ship of the fleet though...

Spoiler

So when will Saru step down or be demoted because of his bad decisions to make way for Burnham? I say next episode.

ETA: On another board, people fear Detmer will bite it .

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

The latest episode was rote, but it did have a really intriguing core idea that it seems to have undersold.

  Reveal hidden contents

The idea of Osyyra really wanting peace is a really intriguing idea and it would have thrown them off from doing the standard run around shooting things ending, but having her revert to supervillain type within three minutes was lazy.

Although the admiral pointing out she'd need to stand trial because, y'know, of all her genociding is reasonable and in keeping with the precedent of how DS9 ended (allowing peace with the Dominion and basically amnesty for all its troops, but the female Changeling needed to stand trial).

To really confuse things, I just passed Time's Orphan in my DS9 rewatch, where Dax says that Alexander was four years old when he joined Worf on the Enterprise. Even assuming they're talking about New Ground rather than Reunion, that's still rather inaccurate (he'd have just turned 3). I think they were rounding up (rather generously) to try to sell it a bit better, but it's still not really convincing.

Star Trek is rather poor at keeping its own canon straight though. I was debating the size of the Federation with one of the Star Trek novel writers on another forum and that's an even more massive can of worms for something pretty fundamental to the franchise.

Klingon years maybe?

[DaveSumm]

So eeerrrrrr

Spoiler

Did I miss an episode where Stamets and Culber adopted Adira? What the fuck? I mean I knew they had a bond of sorts, but saying he had a kid, and being much more cut up about them being on the planet than he was Saru? That was really weird. Also isn’t Adira an ... adult? 

Pretty much agree with @Werthead that it could’ve been an interesting concept, having the admiral realise that he could do an awful lot of good by outlawing slavery in the Emerald Chain, and need to compromise and negotiate around that. But we needed more of Ossyra before this. I’m assuming the Burn will become more relevant because at the moment, it looks like they’ve been building up to the wrong conclusion; the Burn goes nowhere, and the actual climax hasn’t been built enough.

Not as frustrating an episode as recent weeks, but it was mainly action based which Discovery has always been better at. 

 

[Ran]

I liked that episode more than just about anything this season of the show (especially the previous episode, which I thought was a mess and silly), but yeah, it devolved very quickly into same-old, same-old. And I'm with you, Dave, on the Adira thing. That was bizzare.

But man, that Jonathan Frakes. He should direct more stuff.

[Werthead]

46 minutes ago, Ran said:

I liked that episode more than just about anything this season of the show (especially the previous episode, which I thought was a mess and silly), but yeah, it devolved very quickly into same-old, same-old. And I'm with you, Dave, on the Adira thing. That was bizzare.

But man, that Jonathan Frakes. He should direct more stuff.

He'd have probably had a promising feature film career after First Contact, but I think the pretty weak Thunderbirds movie sank those prospects.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

So eeerrrrrr

  Reveal hidden contents

Did I miss an episode where Stamets and Culber adopted Adira? What the fuck? I mean I knew they had a bond of sorts, but saying he had a kid, and being much more cut up about them being on the planet than he was Saru? That was really weird. Also isn’t Adira an ... adult? 

Pretty much agree with @Werthead that it could’ve been an interesting concept, having the admiral realise that he could do an awful lot of good by outlawing slavery in the Emerald Chain, and need to compromise and negotiate around that. But we needed more of Ossyra before this. I’m assuming the Burn will become more relevant because at the moment, it looks like they’ve been building up to the wrong conclusion; the Burn goes nowhere, and the actual climax hasn’t been built enough.

Not as frustrating an episode as recent weeks, but it was mainly action based which Discovery has always been better at. 

 

No, there was nothing official but it kind of felt like they did. 

[karaddin]

I thought the really interesting potential conflict would have been

Spoiler

If the Admiral had signed the armistice and the Discovery crew struggled to accept it and been framed by the story as being in the wrong. Is Burnham going to blow the whole thing up kind of thing. I feel like that's a story continuing what they've done with her so far this season.

Instead we get her being a complete hypocrite by being all "I'm the objective utilitarian even though I was the opposite only a few episodes back and got myself demoted as a result".

The Adira thing was a bit abrupt, but they'd at least set up the foundation of it.

[DaveSumm]

7 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I thought the really interesting potential conflict would have been

  Hide contents

If the Admiral had signed the armistice and the Discovery crew struggled to accept it and been framed by the story as being in the wrong. Is Burnham going to blow the whole thing up kind of thing. I feel like that's a story continuing what they've done with her so far this season.

Instead we get her being a complete hypocrite by being all "I'm the objective utilitarian even though I was the opposite only a few episodes back and got myself demoted as a result".

The Adira thing was a bit abrupt, but they'd at least set up the foundation of it.

Maybe I misread what they were going for, but I saw them as reaching out to Adira because Adira was lonely. They’re an adult, not only that, a Trill host (our main reference point being Jadzia; wise beyond her years) who never struck me as needing a paternal figure. So I got a bit of whiplash going from ‘professional equal / friend’ to ‘I’m basically their Dad’.

[Mindwalker]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that!

Sure, that Adira thing was beginning to develop,

Spoiler

and I enjoy the idea of a little rainbow family, but this was much too early. We've seen, like, 3 bonding scenes beginning with being total strangers...

Show , don't tell, dear lazy writers. Walk the walk.

Sometimes I think they took their clues from GoT: Have everything interesting happen off-screen! Plus, never develop characters or relationships well... Somehow, DSC reminds me more of a superhero movie (which I'm not interested in) than anything resemblng a coherent, grown-up show. They are more cartoonish than Lower Decks.