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Star Trek: Keeping Up With the Cardassians


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On 2/25/2021 at 12:32 PM, red snow said:

Having finished Discovery and Lower Decks last week I have to be honest and say that it's a good thing they aren't making any more shows for a while. Lower decks is probably the best show of the bunch as it doesn't take it's self too seriously and is intentionally silly while the live action shows suffer from unintentional silliness. There's also a nice balance of the characters/crew in the sense I actually know who all the lower deck characters are - which I still can't say of Discovery.

Not sure this is a spoiler thread so I'll play it safe but while I think the current setting/season of Discovery worked the reveal that the burn was

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an alien whose "polyploidy" allowed him to become some dilithium hybrid who screamed and put an end to warp travel was ridiculous. The only positive I can say about that is that I didn't see it coming and it didn't involve fungi for a change

. Discovery did suffer from JJ syndrome though with needless "flash" to distract from boring fights/transition sequences. WTF was with all the meccano appearing all the time? Why did a fight have to occur in an elevator moving through a vast open warehouse (I still don't know if this was inside the discovery or another ship). Worst of all the utterly pointless transformer stutter of spaceships changing shape because I guess someone thought it was too dull watching a fixed spaceship move.

I finished Discovery Season 3 last night. I enjoyed it; the last episode was pretty silly. I agree with you about the action scenes set in Elevator City, a seemingly endless expanse of elevators traveling the great roads. I'm not someone who cares about suspension of belief during action scenes, but that was a real stretch. The reveal for the Burn was definitely silly, but my low expectations there meant it didn't ruin the season for me.

Overall the show seems a lot stronger than it was in Season 1. There are still good episodes and bad episodes, but that was true of DS9 (not that Discovery reaches the heights of DS9 too). I do like that members of the bridge crew got more development and screen time this season, I thought Ossyra was a good villain, and Saru is just a great character. The show's big problem is really Michael Burnham; her becoming captain should have been a huge moment, but it felt very random and one in a series of too many scenes where one character tells Burnham that she's the coolest bestest person ever (and then she whispers back at them). Still, I'm pretty excited for Season 4. I liked it a lot more than the Mandalorian Season 2; it's not as polished, and it stumbles much more, but at least it's trying something a little more ambitious.

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12 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I finished Discovery Season 3 last night. I enjoyed it; the last episode was pretty silly. I agree with you about the action scenes set in Elevator City, a seemingly endless expanse of elevators traveling the great roads. I'm not someone who cares about suspension of belief during action scenes, but that was a real stretch. The reveal for the Burn was definitely silly, but my low expectations there meant it didn't ruin the season for me.

Overall the show seems a lot stronger than it was in Season 1. There are still good episodes and bad episodes, but that was true of DS9 (not that Discovery reaches the heights of DS9 too). I do like that members of the bridge crew got more development and screen time this season, I thought Ossyra was a good villain, and Saru is just a great character. The show's big problem is really Michael Burnham; her becoming captain should have been a huge moment, but it felt very random and one in a series of too many scenes where one character tells Burnham that she's the coolest bestest person ever (and then she whispers back at them). Still, I'm pretty excited for Season 4. I liked it a lot more than the Mandalorian Season 2; it's not as polished, and it stumbles much more, but at least it's trying something a little more ambitious.

My criticisms aside, I felt season 3 was the best yet for Discovery. It finally felt more comfortable about being its own thing. It also helps that I (and presumably the creators) don't need to worry about the weird continuity issues the first two seasons presented. I was releived they didn't return to the status quo as I think this might help the show going forward not swinging so wildly from season to season and there's a hell of a lot still to be explored in the setting.

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14 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

There are still good episodes and bad episodes, but that was true of DS9 (not that Discovery reaches the heights of DS9 too).

I have been puttering around and rewatching some DS9 episodes. I just watched The Wire, from season 2 and it's just so good. Cmd. Sisqo only has a cameo, as do Kira, Dax, and O'Brien. The show just had so many characters with real personalities that they could actually do episodes where different people shine. The prior episodes were Sisqo and Kirea-heavy, along with Dukat. The following episode was Kira-Bashir, though it was a weaker effort. Then we get a Kira/Bajor episode, then O'Brien episode, then the JH show up... they actually fleshed out an existence. Things mattered beyond one character.

Gosh I glad I got into DS9.

Except for most of the Ferengi episodes. :) 

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2 hours ago, Lightning Lord said:

I have been puttering around and rewatching some DS9 episodes. I just watched The Wire, from season 2 and it's just so good. Cmd. Sisqo only has a cameo, as do Kira, Dax, and O'Brien. The show just had so many characters with real personalities that they could actually do episodes where different people shine. The prior episodes were Sisqo and Kirea-heavy, along with Dukat. The following episode was Kira-Bashir, though it was a weaker effort. Then we get a Kira/Bajor episode, then O'Brien episode, then the JH show up... they actually fleshed out an existence. Things mattered beyond one character.

Gosh I glad I got into DS9.

Except for most of the Ferengi episodes. :) 

The Wire is incredible. And you're right, one of the things that makes DS9 great is its ensemble; it's the rare show with no weak links in its main cast, though any Quark episode with the Grand Nagus was bound to be terrible. I don't expect Discovery to live up to that, but developing more characters so that Burnham doesn't always have to be the main focus would really pay off for them. It does seem like they started to do that this season; it'd just be nice if they allowed the characters to be less mushy with each other all the time.

I don't expect Discovery to have the same quality of writing as DS9 at its best,

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3 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

The Wire is incredible. And you're right, one of the things that makes DS9 great is its ensemble; it's the rare show with no weak links in its main cast, though any Quark episode with the Grand Nagus was bound to be terrible. I don't expect Discovery to live up to that, but developing more characters so that Burnham doesn't always have to be the main focus would really pay off for them. It does seem like they started to do that this season; it'd just be nice if they allowed the characters to be less mushy with each other all the time.

I don't expect Discovery to have the same quality of writing as DS9 at its best,

The Wire is probably my second favorite show of all time, I probably quote things from that show with my friends, more than any show I've seen before. Omar was such a cool character and I loved every second of him on that show.

Yea, DS9 was amazing. Not sure why no one here seems to like the Ferengi episodes though. They were nice little comedic side stories, I felt that helped lighten the tone. Plus Rom and Nog had an amazing amount of growth and character development over that show; both felt like very different people by the end. 

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24 minutes ago, sifth said:

The Wire is probably my second favorite show of all time, I probably quote things from that show with my friends, more than any show I've seen before. Omar was such a cool character and I loved every second of him on that show.

I made the same mistake at first, but there's an episode of DS9 called The Wire. It's the one where Garak's Obsidian Order brain implant is malfunctioning. 

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1 hour ago, sifth said:

Yea, DS9 was amazing. Not sure why no one here seems to like the Ferengi episodes though. They were nice little comedic side stories, I felt that helped lighten the tone. Plus Rom and Nog had an amazing amount of growth and character development over that show; both felt like very different people by the end. 

I think I liked most of them, although I think there were a couple of bad ones.

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2 hours ago, williamjm said:

I think I liked most of them, although I think there were a couple of bad ones.

The only real stinker I can recall is the one where Quark has a sex change

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7 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I don't expect Discovery to have the same quality of writing as DS9 at its best,

Yeah, modern Trek's only saving grace is that expectations are so much lower now. I can and do rewatch classic TNG and DS9 episodes form time to time. Episodes which are 20/30 years old and still hold up really well. Ain't nobody going to be watching Picard in 30 years.

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Sorry for the confusion on the titling. I really should have looked up formatting conventions for episode titles - probably "The Wire."

I wasn't trying to compare the best of DS9 to Star Trek: Discovering Michael Burnham. I was more trying to highlight that even the middling/mediocre episodes are better than the best of DMB. There are 42 episodes of Disco, so it seems to make sense to compare it to the first two seasons of the others. There are some absolute bombs in the first two seasons of both TNG and DS9. But there are literally dozens of in each of those sets that I will happily re-watch. I admit that these four seasons have some absolutely offensive dreck, too (I'm looking at you, "Code of Honor"). There were so many positives that they far outweighed the negatives. Disco doesn't do it for me, especially now that Michelle Yeoh is gone.

DS9

TNG

Lower Decks

Voyager

TOS (I never really watched this)

...

...

...

Discoverprise

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2 hours ago, Denvek said:

That one and Move Along Home.

I found the ones set on Ferenginar to be ... well not great at best.

6 minutes ago, Lightning Lord said:

Sorry for the confusion on the titling. I really should have looked up formatting conventions for episode titles - probably "The Wire."

I wasn't trying to compare the best of DS9 to Star Trek: Discovering Michael Burnham. I was more trying to highlight that even the middling/mediocre episodes are better than the best of DMB. There are 42 episodes of Disco, so it seems to make sense to compare it to the first two seasons of the others. There are some absolute bombs in the first two seasons of both TNG and DS9. But there are literally dozens of in each of those sets that I will happily re-watch.

I think you may be overstating TNG S1/2. On my semi-recent rewatch I found it ranged from pretty mediocre to basically unwatchable, with much of it being towards the terrible end of the scale. Maybe a few good-great episodes (Measure of Man and Q Who spring to mind). DS9 was much more consistent. But YMMV.

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You may be right about TNG. I scanned Netflix quickly and thought there were some real stinkers, but plenty that were just middle-of-the-road. I admit that I haven't done much re-watching of those episodes in the last 15 years though, so I will readily admit it's likely worse than I remember :D 

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1 hour ago, Lightning Lord said:

You may be right about TNG. I scanned Netflix quickly and thought there were some real stinkers, but plenty that were just middle-of-the-road. I admit that I haven't done much re-watching of those episodes in the last 15 years though, so I will readily admit it's likely worse than I remember :D 

Yeah I definitely think there's some nostalgia/rose tinted glasses going on with TNG. I'll give you DS9, but as a contemporary watcher there's not a lot of early TNG I'd particularly want to rewatch either. And as shallow as it is, some of that just comes down to the effects - I know a lot of long term fans dislike the updated visuals for their dissonance with classic Trek, but its just much more enjoyable to watch on a purely visual level. And TNG is smack in the time period that I have a personal hang up that's hard to explain relating to things I see as "just before my time" that isn't helping it either. DS9 and Voyager I both saw episodes of as teens so don't hit that same note, but TNG is just that bit earlier with that bit older acting style.

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19 hours ago, sifth said:

The Wire is probably my second favorite show of all time, I probably quote things from that show with my friends, more than any show I've seen before. Omar was such a cool character and I loved every second of him on that show.

Yea, DS9 was amazing. Not sure why no one here seems to like the Ferengi episodes though. They were nice little comedic side stories, I felt that helped lighten the tone. Plus Rom and Nog had an amazing amount of growth and character development over that show; both felt like very different people by the end. 

Ha, The Wire (show) is great, but here I was talking about the DS9 episode.

As for Ferengi... I like Quark as a character, and I have no problem with many Ferengi episodes that focus on Quark and Rom and Nog and the Inspector. Even the Little Green Men episode was pretty funny. But any time you add the Grand Nagus and that cast of characters (including Quark's mom) you get some truly terrible comedy: lots of over-the-top slapstick and farce, truly grating performances (I know Wally Shawn is Jewish, but there is still something that makes me very uncomfortable about how much the Grand Nagus is just a collection of exaggerated anti-Semitic stereotypes), and the same "jokes" beat into the ground over and over again - "hey guys! Ferengi women are always naked! Isn't that hilarious?" There's a kind of interesting story in the background of Ferenginar going from uber-capitalism to a social democracy, but they don't really explore that.

I only watched DS9 for the first time recently and I will say that I think there are a lot more stinkers in there than just two episodes. There's the one where Worf and Dax go to vacation planet... There's the one where a succubus tries to suck up Jake's life energy... There's the one where Troi makes everyone horny. And then there's all the Mirror Universe episodes after the first two. I would also never watch the first season of DS9 again, aside from a few episodes.

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4 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I only watched DS9 for the first time recently and I will say that I think there are a lot more stinkers in there than just two episodes. There's the one where Worf and Dax go to vacation planet... There's the one where a succubus tries to suck up Jake's life energy... There's the one where Troi makes everyone horny. And then there's all the Mirror Universe episodes after the first two. I would also never watch the first season of DS9 again, aside from a few episodes.

I mean if we're talking about DS9's worst episode, I think Move Along Home, is the episode to beat. When I first saw that episode as a kid, I nearly gave up on the show, in fact I did for a long while, until I randomly caught Our Man Bashir and was blown away by the Bashir/Garak chemistry. I instantly wanted to see more of it and was able to get back into the show again.

Also sorry about The Wire mix up. I guess I just love that show, lol

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1 hour ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I only watched DS9 for the first time recently and I will say that I think there are a lot more stinkers in there than just two episodes. There's the one where Worf and Dax go to vacation planet... There's the one where a succubus tries to suck up Jake's life energy... There's the one where Troi makes everyone horny. And then there's all the Mirror Universe episodes after the first two. I would also never watch the first season of DS9 again, aside from a few episodes.

The worst episode of DS9 is clearly Profit and Lace. It's sexist, misogynistic and somewhat transphobic, and makes Quark a really horrible character in a badly contrived way, like the six seasons of character development hadn't happened by that point.

Let He Who is Without Sin... (the Risa vacation episode) and The Muse (succubus) are very weak as well. There's the one where Bashir starts aging rapidly and it's all a weird fantasy in his own mind or something was also awful.

Quote

Come this Way

His Way, the Kira/Odo episode where they finally hook up? It's not great (and I remain ambivalent on if their relationship with the best idea) but I don't think it's on the same level as some of the other episodes. Ira Behr was a huge Vegas fan and if he wanted in to indulge that in a few episodes, I didn't have a problem with that. One of the benefits of having 26 episodes a year is that you can throw in a few indulgent things and it's not too much of a problem.

I'd also watch Jimmy Darren in anything. Very charismatic guy (and the fact he was William Shatner's sidekick in TJ Hooker is a nice bit of synchronicity).

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5 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The worst episode of DS9 is clearly Profit and Lace. It's sexist, misogynistic and somewhat transphobic, and makes Quark a really horrible character in a badly contrived way, like the six seasons of character development hadn't happened by that point.

Let He Who is Without Sin... (the Risa vacation episode) and The Muse (succubus) are very weak as well. There's the one where Bashir starts aging rapidly and it's all a weird fantasy in his own mind or something was also awful.

His Way, the Kira/Odo episode where they finally hook up? It's not great (and I remain ambivalent on if their relationship with the best idea) but I don't think it's on the same level as some of the other episodes. Ira Behr was a huge Vegas fan and if he wanted in to indulge that in a few episodes, I didn't have a problem with that. One of the benefits of having 26 episodes a year is that you can throw in a few indulgent things and it's not too much of a problem.

I'd also watch Jimmy Darren in anything. Very charismatic guy (and the fact he was William Shatner's sidekick in TJ Hooker is a nice bit of synchronicity).

Oh, I definitely agree that Profit and Lace is the worst. I was responding to people above who claimed that it and Move Along Home were the only two really bad episodes. My point was there's a lot more out there... And honestly, I'd prefer to watch Move Along Home over many other bad episodes. Move Along Home at least hits "it's so bad it's entertaining."

I feel the same way about His Way as I do about Move Along Home. I do think it's a very bad episode, especially because it completely fails in its job to sell you on the Odo/Kira relationship from Kira's perspective, it gets very creepy, and honestly, Vic Fontaine was a dumb idea - though he does get a couple good episodes in season 7. But watching Odo play jazz piano for no reason falls into "it's so bad it's entertaining," so I'll take it over Molly becoming a cavewoman.

 

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