Star Trek: Keeping Up With the Cardassians

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Oh, I definitely agree that Profit and Lace is the worst. I was responding to people above who claimed that it and Move Along Home were the only two really bad episodes. My point was there's a lot more out there... And honestly, I'd prefer to watch Move Along Home over many other bad episodes. Move Along Home at least hits "it's so bad it's entertaining."

I feel the same way about His Way as I do about Move Along Home. I do think it's a very bad episode, especially because it completely fails in its job to sell you on the Odo/Kira relationship from Kira's perspective, it gets very creepy, and honestly, Vic Fontaine was a dumb idea - though he does get a couple good episodes in season 7. But watching Odo play jazz piano for no reason falls into "it's so bad it's entertaining," so I'll take it over Molly becoming a cavewoman.

 

See I actually liked His Way. After seeing Odo mostly miserable for 6 years, it was nice to have an episode about him finding some form of happiness. I mean the music was great as well, but any episode of Trek that has a core theme of creating a bond of friendship gets a win in my book. Odo actually having an episode centered around making a new friend and getting together with the woman of his dreams, just left me feeling happy by the end and I'll take that compared to the alternative any day.

[Maltaran]

I was specifically talking about the Ferengi episodes when I said Profit and Lace was the only stinker I could remember (although there may be others that weren't quite as bad so I don't remember tem).

[Mindwalker]

55 minutes ago, sifth said:

See I actually liked His Way. After seeing Odo mostly miserable for 6 years, it was nice to have an episode about him finding some form of happiness. I mean the music was great as well, but any episode of Trek that has a core theme of creating a bond of friendship gets a win in my book. Odo actually having an episode centered around making a new friend and getting together with the woman of his dreams, just left me feeling happy by the end and I'll take that compared to the alternative any day.

I hated it. And I wasn't opposed to them getting together.

Odo and Kira, individually, were my favorites of the show, and I also loved their friendship. I thought if the writers got them tgether romantically, they'd do a good job, and I, too, wanted some happiness for both characters.

"His Way", otoh, felt like a bad high shool movie to me, very untrue to both their characters, unironically cheesy and full of the worst clichés. The only thing that saved it a bit for me is that both René and Nana were acting their asses off to sell it.

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

I hated it. And I wasn't opposed to them getting together.

Odo and Kira, individually, were my favorites of the show, and I also loved their friendship. I thought if the writers got them tgether romantically, they'd do a good job, and I, too, wanted some happiness for both characters.

"His Way", otoh, felt like a bad high shool movie to me, very untrue to both their characters, unironically cheesy and full of the worst clichés. The only thing that saved it a bit for me is that both René and Nana were acting their asses off to sell it.

I do think the problem is that we saw the non-requited romance from Odo's perspective and we never got a handle on Kira's perspective, and Nana Visitor was irate because she felt that the writers didn't know if they wanted Odo and Kira to get together or not and she couldn't play the process until they decided. You can see that in the 20-odd episodes after she finds out Odo's feelings (in Children of Time, when the future Odo effectively commits genocide on her behalf) and before His Way, and the writers were not really committing to one path or another (especially having them resolve their problems from the Dominion occupation off-screen in You Are Cordially Invited).

There were a few moments when she did make some acting choices based on the idea that maybe Kira had occasionally thought about Odo in that way. In the episode where Odo has his relationship with the alien intelligence officer and the Ops team hear about it, Kira looks really conflicted, rather than being glad for your friend as you might expect if she wasn't interested at all.

I think the reasoning for getting them together was flawed: they had a story conference where they mapped out the end of the show and decided Odo would go back to the Founders, but it was a relatively easy choice to make because, apart from being a bit sad to say goodbye to his friends on the station, he had no real ties there. By giving him the relationship with Kira they made that ending more poignant. Which is fine as far as it goes, but it perhaps should have been part of a clearer plan.

I would say that once they did commit to the relationship, the actors did a pretty good job of selling it but it took a while to get there.

[VarysTheSpider]

7 hours ago, Werthead said:

His Way, the Kira/Odo episode where they finally hook up? It's not great (and I remain ambivalent on if their relationship with the best idea)

Definitely a bad idea.

Kira's past partners are mostly good people who share her faith, which is the most important thing in the world to her.

Then she dates... Odo. Odo who does not share her faith, or any faith. Odo who is surly, awkward, bitter, quick to anger and a bit weird.

Odo who worked for the Cardassians during the Occupation, for crying out loud. Here the writers engage in some really fanciful thinking in that the Bajorans actually regard him as a hero because he was "fair", ha ha. Until Kira discovers that actually he wasn't always that fair, oops. I'm sure there were members of the Bajoran government during the Occupation who tried to be fair and sometimes weren't. Didn't stop the provisional government from exciling them after, with Kira's support.

Odo who could have quite easily cost the Federation the war because he was too busy shagging the other changeling.

But Kira is able to look past all of these giant red flags to miss the biggest one - a truly incredible act of callous psychotic selfishness - Odo commits temporal genocide of a whole colony of people to alter the timeline so his past self gets to have a shot at dating someone who a) he hasn't seen in over 200 years and b) doesn't even know he is even compatible with. Real people like O'Brien were prepared to sacrifice their future with their families for these people they've only known for a day. Odo has spent a lifetime with them and is like, fuck you kids, I'm "in love" with Kira!

I'll take the Ferengi episodes over Odo any day - at least the Ferengi know they're arseholes.

[Werthead]

8 minutes ago, VarysTheSpider said:

Odo who worked for the Cardassians during the Occupation, for crying out loud. Here the writers engage in some really fanciful thinking in that the Bajorans actually regard him as a hero because he was "fair", ha ha. Until Kira discovers that actually he wasn't always that fair, oops. I'm sure there were members of the Bajoran government during the Occupation who tried to be fair and sometimes weren't. Didn't stop the provisional government from exciling them after, with Kira's support.

There was the flashback episode to Odo and Kira's first meeting just before he's put in charge of security on the Promenade where it's clear that Odo knows she's Resistance and agrees to help her, and does not betray her or the other Resistance fighters to the Cardassians, and they are able to operate on DS9 without Cardassian detection.

So effectively Odo was a collaborator with the Resistance, and that's why they trusted him (with some exceptions, and that one horrendous mistake he made which we learn about in the weird semi-time-travel-Odo's-mind episode).

[Mindwalker]

1 hour ago, VarysTheSpider said:

Definitely a bad idea.

Kira's past partners are mostly good people who share her faith, which is the most important thing in the world to her.

Then she dates... Odo. Odo who does not share her faith, or any faith. Odo who is surly, awkward, bitter, quick to anger and a bit weird.

Odo who worked for the Cardassians during the Occupation, for crying out loud. Here the writers engage in some really fanciful thinking in that the Bajorans actually regard him as a hero because he was "fair", ha ha. Until Kira discovers that actually he wasn't always that fair, oops. I'm sure there were members of the Bajoran government during the Occupation who tried to be fair and sometimes weren't. Didn't stop the provisional government from exciling them after, with Kira's support.

Odo who could have quite easily cost the Federation the war because he was too busy shagging the other changeling.

But Kira is able to look past all of these giant red flags to miss the biggest one - a truly incredible act of callous psychotic selfishness - Odo commits temporal genocide of a whole colony of people to alter the timeline so his past self gets to have a shot at dating someone who a) he hasn't seen in over 200 years and b) doesn't even know he is even compatible with. Real people like O'Brien were prepared to sacrifice their future with their families for these people they've only known for a day. Odo has spent a lifetime with them and is like, fuck you kids, I'm "in love" with Kira!

I'll take the Ferengi episodes over Odo any day - at least the Ferengi know they're arseholes.

Kira was always able to look past his collaboration, or hiis charming personality, and form a very good friendship with him, I doubt she would have another set of moral standards for a romantic partner.

Now, the question of having a different 'type', e.g. religious, is a valid point. Although many people don't always fall for someone of their 'type'.

As for FutureOdo's actions in CoT - I never held that against present Odo. Sure, he had the potential for committing these acts, or for not doing so. It wasn't predetermined. I guess I just assumed Kira felt the same; otherwise, it would be hard for her to even be his friend.

Then again, I don't view Odo as an arsehole.

The almost-killing-Kira-and-losing-the-war-because-shagging-Changeling thing was quite a different matter, and the writers clearly didn't see how they would ever realistically get over this, which is why they simply stuck them in a closet at a party, and the next morning they had reconciled. That was infuriatingly dumb writing, particularly for DS9.

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I do think the problem is that we saw the non-requited romance from Odo's perspective and we never got a handle on Kira's perspective, and Nana Visitor was irate because she felt that the writers didn't know if they wanted Odo and Kira to get together or not and she couldn't play the process until they decided. You can see that in the 20-odd episodes after she finds out Odo's feelings (in Children of Time, when the future Odo effectively commits genocide on her behalf) and before His Way, and the writers were not really committing to one path or another (especially having them resolve their problems from the Dominion occupation off-screen in You Are Cordially Invited).

Both important points:

- the indecision of the writers showed in the lead-up to His Way. Do it or don't do it, but commit to it and do the work!

- And yes, even in this episode, we never really get her perspective. It's all about The Nice Guy getting the girl. His way, indeed. One of the many reasons I dislike the ep so much. It does such a disservice to both their characters.

Quote

I think the reasoning for getting them together was flawed: they had a story conference where they mapped out the end of the show and decided Odo would go back to the Founders, but it was a relatively easy choice to make because, apart from being a bit sad to say goodbye to his friends on the station, he had no real ties there. By giving him the relationship with Kira they made that ending more poignant. Which is fine as far as it goes, but it perhaps should have been part of a clearer plan.

Indeed.

 

[Caligula_K3]

Once the relationship started, I didn't mind it so much. His Way just needed to actually justify Kira wanting to be in a relationship with Odo. Instead it focused on Odo learning pickup artists tricks and playing jazz piano and having creepy practice holosuite dates. As @Mindwalker says, it's Nice Guy romantic storytelling.

As for future Odo's actions in the temporal genocide episode, I didn't particularly care. The episode tried to present that the only moral choice was for the Defiant to stay on that planet because if they didn't they would wipe out lives, but it ignored the effects of the Defiant not returning to DS9 right before the Dominion War broke out (many, many, many more lives lost). If they'd presented both sides of the argument it could have been an interesting episode from a moral perspective, and future Odo's actions could have had some weight. But instead the writers wanted to emotionally manipulate you into thinking only one decision was right - and then future Odo is a convenient person to get the blame. At least future Odo wore some great sexy v-necks.

[Werthead]

9 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

As for future Odo's actions in the temporal genocide episode, I didn't particularly care. The episode tried to present that the only moral choice was for the Defiant to stay on that planet because if they didn't they would wipe out lives, but it ignored the effects of the Defiant not returning to DS9 right before the Dominion War broke out (many, many, many more lives lost). If they'd presented both sides of the argument it could have been an interesting episode from a moral perspective, and future Odo's actions could have had some weight. But instead the writers wanted to emotionally manipulate you into thinking only one decision was right - and then future Odo is a convenient person to get the blame. At least future Odo wore some great sexy v-necks.

Something that was interesting was that in The Visitor the time jumps to the future indicate that the Dominion War never happens, and the Federation and Klingons have a more strained relationship but are otherwise reasonably okay. So by restoring his dad to the timeline Jake inadvertently causes the war and kills billions of people 

The predominant fan theory seems to be that the Federation surrenders control of DS9 and the wormhole to the Klingons somewhere around the start of Season 5 and either the Klingons simply collapse the wormhole the nanosecond the Dominion looks like it's going to be a problem, or they go all-out and throw the entire Klingon fleet at the first Dominion fleet to enter the Alpha Quadrant and successfully drive them back and massively fortify the entrance with mines and force the Dominion to negotiate a stalemate.

[Derfel Cadarn]

8 hours ago, Werthead said:

Something that was interesting was that in The Visitor the time jumps to the future indicate that the Dominion War never happens, and the Federation and Klingons have a more strained relationship but are otherwise reasonably okay. So by restoring his dad to the timeline Jake inadvertently causes the war and kills billions of people 

The predominant fan theory seems to be that the Federation surrenders control of DS9 and the wormhole to the Klingons somewhere around the start of Season 5 and either the Klingons simply collapse the wormhole the nanosecond the Dominion looks like it's going to be a problem, or they go all-out and throw the entire Klingon fleet at the first Dominion fleet to enter the Alpha Quadrant and successfully drive them back and massively fortify the entrance with mines and force the Dominion to negotiate a stalemate.

But if the wormhole is destroyed then so are the prophets, and Sisko would never be born... unless they just sealed it.

Another possibility is that without Sisko stopping the coup, it happened and Sec31 deployed thr virus earlier and more efficiently, giving thr Founders a more pressing problem.

 

The Visitor had the same problem as the TNG finale; both show a fairly ok future with some issues, more personal to the crew than the galaxy, and things change. Then we end up with a ‘worse’ future.

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

But if the wormhole is destroyed then so are the prophets, and Sisko would never be born... unless they just sealed it.

Another possibility is that without Sisko stopping the coup, it happened and Sec31 deployed thr virus earlier and more efficiently, giving thr Founders a more pressing problem.

The Visitor had the same problem as the TNG finale; both show a fairly ok future with some issues, more personal to the crew than the galaxy, and things change. Then we end up with a ‘worse’ future.

Collapsing the wormhole is not the same as destroying it (Rejoined and By Inferno's Light make it clear that the wormhole can be rendered inaccessible without harming the Prophets).

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Collapsing the wormhole is not the same as destroying it (Rejoined and By Inferno's Light make it clear that the wormhole can be rendered inaccessible without harming the Prophets).

I know, but doubt the Klingons would use half-measures. Unless they had to keep the Bajorans happy.

[SpaceChampion]

Star Trek, all series apparently, are available free on Youtube in the U.S. to "celebrate" rebranding CBS All Access as Paramount+.

I don't understand how that is suppose to drive people to Paramount+ if they go to Youtube, but okay, rabbit, we'll do it your way.

I suppose if you have a VPN you can watch Lower Decks those of you who haven't seen it yet.

Not sure if it's the Star Trek youtube channel or the Paramount+ one.

[felice]

5 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

I don't understand how that is suppose to drive people to Paramount+ if they go to Youtube, but okay, rabbit, we'll do it your way.

I assume they'll only be on YouTube for a short time, and if people start watching a series on YouTube they'll need to get Paramount+ to keep going.

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, felice said:

I assume they'll only be on YouTube for a short time, and if people start watching a series on YouTube they'll need to get Paramount+ to keep going.

Yup, it's for the weekend and then it'll come down again.

Even the most hardcore binger can't fit all of Star Trek into two or three days (even if they restrict themselves to the good stuff).

[RumHam]

They're still trying to do another movie.

The new writer worked on Discovery and was actually named after a minor TOS character. 

[Plessiez]

This thread inspired me to start rewatching Deep Space 9 as well.  I'd forgotten that there were actually quite a few really strong episodes in the early seasons (as well as The Wire, there's Duet in season 1 and Second Skin in season 3, as well as the Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast two parter which I've just reached).

Haven't got that far yet, but I remember hating His Way (and, to only a slightly lesser extent, the other Vic Fontaine episodes that came after it).  Like @Mindwalker, I liked both Odo and Kira a lot -- they're not quite my favourite characters, but possibly my favourite non-Cardassian characters -- but their relationship just never worked for me, and the way it was established was pretty horrible.  

I'm also not sure why Move Along Home makes so many people's list of DS9's worst episodes. It's definitely a stupid concept (and it's one of a large number of episodes I've skipped it in my current rewatch) and I remember feeling that it was a complete waste of the audience's time when I originally saw it.  But at the same time it's a lot better than Profit and Lace, or any of the Mirror Universe episodes, or Let He Who Is Without Sin...  I don't think it's even the third worst episode of season one, honestly.

[Werthead]

The writer of Lower Decks explains why they decided to make O'Brien "the most important person in Starfleet history."

Quote

“So why did we put that statue at the end of the episode? If you ask the common fan on the street to name the most important Star Trek character, they’ll probably say Picard or Kirk. Us Lower Deckers would like to offer a different answer... Chief O’Brien is the original Lower Decker, moving from an enlisted crewman all the way to professor of engineering at Starfleet Academy. We experienced his full life in Starfleet: his marriage and relationship with Keiko, being a dad and moving up in rank and location, the dynamic between enlisted crew and officers through his friendships with Bashir and Sisko, and the trauma he experienced being a veteran of the Federation-Cardassian War. One could argue Miles O’Brien is the most fully realized character in Star Trek, and we ask, no, demand he be given a statue. While a nod to Miles might be seen as slight by a casual fan, those of us who spent years watching him grow across two television series know he is, without a doubt, the most important person in Starfleet History.”

Colm's reaction is excellent:

 

[john]

That was one of the best lines in a show full of jokes aimed at fans. I very much enjoyed the “sens-oars” one as well.