Star Trek: Keeping Up With the Cardassians

[DaveSumm]

Thinking about it some more, I could accept the idea of...

Spoiler

A psycho-kinetic mutated Kelpian causing a wave of badness IF it was an episode plot. That’s pretty standard fare for an episode, but who in the fuck took that and said “That! That right there, that’s our season arc! Drag that out as a mystery for the whole season!” I mean, really? Imagine we hadn’t had the Burn hyped all this time, and we just had:

Burnham: “Captain, there are reports that some waves of (technobabble) are disrupting sector (sector).

Saru: “Set a course.”

That’s how much set up this idea deserved. Or needed. It’s got ‘one episode idea’ written all over it.

 

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Thinking about it some more, I could accept the idea of...

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A psycho-kinetic mutated Kelpian causing a wave of badness IF it was an episode plot. That’s pretty standard fare for an episode, but who in the fuck took that and said “That! That right there, that’s our season arc! Drag that out as a mystery for the whole season!” I mean, really? Imagine we hadn’t had the Burn hyped all this time, and we just had:

Burnham: “Captain, there are reports that some waves of (technobabble) are disrupting sector (sector).

Saru: “Set a course.”

That’s how much set up this idea deserved. Or needed. It’s got ‘one episode idea’ written all over it.

 

If my idea was accurate that could also

Spoiler

Be a complete fake out. Michael in particular is very focused on the burn and fears that their investigation is going to cause a second now they're at the origin point.

But it won't be. Even if my theory turned out right for the rest they wouldn't actually do that for the season arc - this is the location that started the burn even if the rest of that was happening.

So yeah, I've done a lot of defending this show and arguing for benefit of the doubt but I'm getting tired of needing to.

 

[Mindwalker]

I'm not interested in Star Wars. but maybe I should start watching The Mandalorian, fans seem pretty happy...

[RumHam]

13 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

I'm not interested in Star Wars. but maybe I should start watching The Mandalorian, fans seem pretty happy...

I'd actually be curious to get the reaction of someone who was fairly unfamiliar with Star Wars. I don't think there's any question it's a better show, but what it's trying to do is probably easier. They also clearly spent a shit ton more money on it, but that shouldn't really affect the writing. 

[DaveSumm]

4 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

I'm not interested in Star Wars. but maybe I should start watching The Mandalorian, fans seem pretty happy...

My GF never cared for Star Wars and she loves the Mandalorian. I actually wish Discovery would learn a thing or two from it, such as, calm down, the pace doesn’t have to be 150% for everything, it’s OK to tell a simple tale once in a while.

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

I don't think there's any question it's a better show, but what it's trying to do is probably easier. 

I think the Discovery team are making it far harder than it needs to be. Their choice of season arcs have been very ambitious, and they haven’t convincingly pulled any of them off, always resorting to contorted reasoning to get where they need to be. It feels like Doctor Who a lot of the time; come up with a cool sounding mystery and then fix it later with technobabble. And the characters suffer. Maybe Tilly I think is the only one with what looks like a planned season arc? I can’t pull out a good arc for anyone else. Adira probably comes second actually. I was thinking about Book during this episode, what purpose was there in his creation? From a writing point of view? He met Burnham, had a cool ship, then started a relationship with her (which hasn’t been relevant since), he expressed an interest in taking part more ... but every plan involves his ship, not really him. It’s always him leaving on his ship that’s the plan. In fact, this is exactly what I said about the Burn: it’s a one episode idea (the one about his brother) that they’ve pulled out into a season arc. 

Maybe that’s ultimately what they aren’t good at - turning Trek into seasons. I guess there’s no playbook for it and they aren’t excelling at it for me.

[sifth]

11 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

I'm not interested in Star Wars. but maybe I should start watching The Mandalorian, fans seem pretty happy...

That and the Clone Wars cartoon are better than all of the Disney movies combined.

[Werthead]

8 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Maybe that’s ultimately what they aren’t good at - turning Trek into seasons. I guess there’s no playbook for it and they aren’t excelling at it for me.

I think Star Trek ultimately is not really built for serialisation. Even the much-vaunted DS9 wasn't that serialised. They just remembered to refer to the events of previous episodes every now and then and sometimes - like on three occasions - did a serialised arc (the longest of which was only nine episodes, not thirteen or fifteen). When Discovery has done completely stand-alone episodes, they've usually been decent. Their main problem is delivering a resolution to their story arcs with descending into nonsensical CGI and ADHD plotting (Season 2's ending was really bad for that, after a very promising start), and it feels like Season 3 is starting to go the same way.

The extremely inconsistent characterisation is also starting to remind me of Voyager.

Slightly frustrating because Season 3 has, overall, been much stronger than the first two, but at this juncture it feels like they're locked into a pattern they can't help repeating season after season. I'm also wondering if a budget cut might help them tone down the messy CGI and massively over-designed sets.

[Mindwalker]

13 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'd actually be curious to get the reaction of someone who was fairly unfamiliar with Star Wars. I don't think there's any question it's a better show, but what it's trying to do is probably easier. They also clearly spent a shit ton more money on it, but that shouldn't really affect the writing. 

I want to try The Expanse first, but then I'll give it a try. I did watch the first two SW movies as a child, though. (No spoilers for either show, please!)

9 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

My GF never cared for Star Wars and she loves the Mandalorian. I actually wish Discovery would learn a thing or two from it, such as, calm down, the pace doesn’t have to be 150% for everything, it’s OK to tell a simple tale once in a while.

I think the Discovery team are making it far harder than it needs to be. Their choice of season arcs have been very ambitious, and they haven’t convincingly pulled any of them off, always resorting to contorted reasoning to get where they need to be. It feels like Doctor Who a lot of the time; come up with a cool sounding mystery and then fix it later with technobabble. And the characters suffer. Maybe Tilly I think is the only one with what looks like a planned season arc? I can’t pull out a good arc for anyone else. Adira probably comes second actually. I was thinking about Book during this episode, what purpose was there in his creation? From a writing point of view? He met Burnham, had a cool ship, then started a relationship with her (which hasn’t been relevant since), he expressed an interest in taking part more ... but every plan involves his ship, not really him. It’s always him leaving on his ship that’s the plan. In fact, this is exactly what I said about the Burn: it’s a one episode idea (the one about his brother) that they’ve pulled out into a season arc. 

Maybe that’s ultimately what they aren’t good at - turning Trek into seasons. I guess there’s no playbook for it and they aren’t excelling at it for me.

Agree with most of this. (Except for the fact that I don't know Dr. Who yet.)

IMO, they are just lazy writers. Or witers wth a form of adhc. They want a huge secret but fail to make it interesting (for me), and the resolution is underwhelming. Sometimes they have many interesting ideas but choose the most boring one to explore and leav the others hanging. Theymay want to have a character arc for someone (e.g. it's not unreasonable for the Burnham character to finally - or even earlier - become Captain), but they don't walk the walk of showing development, instead relying on tell, don't show, or developments off-screen etc. Particularly with Burnham. They also don't trust their own characters. Burnham, e.g.,  supposedly too rebellious, but she is always proven right, etc.

51 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I think Star Trek ultimately is not really built for serialisation. Even the much-vaunted DS9 wasn't that serialised. They just remembered to refer to the events of previous episodes every now and then and sometimes - like on three occasions - did a serialised arc (the longest of which was only nine episodes, not thirteen or fifteen). When Discovery has done completely stand-alone episodes, they've usually been decent. Their main problem is delivering a resolution to their story arcs with descending into nonsensical CGI and ADHD plotting (Season 2's ending was really bad for that, after a very promising start), and it feels like Season 3 is starting to go the same way.

The extremely inconsistent characterisation is also starting to remind me of Voyager.

Slightly frustrating because Season 3 has, overall, been much stronger than the first two, but at this juncture it feels like they're locked into a pattern they can't help repeating season after season. I'm also wondering if a budget cut might help them tone down the messy CGI and massively over-designed sets.

Idk, Babylon 5 did a great job with the serialisation (minus the final season, which was a result of real-world shit), it should be possible for Trek, too. Of course, the degree of DS9's serialisation would be fine for me, too. If producers think a cliffhanger at the end is what makes serialisation, they are wrong anyway. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, it's the quality of the writing. (Plus direction and acting ofc, but mostly the writing.) Not just story arcs, also characters, character development, and dialogue. "Unification III" was fairly episodic, but imo, the soapy story and dialogue sucked. Hard. Somewhere upthread someone wrote they prefer character stuff/ drama to action stuff. So do I, but DSC is so very bad at it!

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Mindwalker said:

Idk, Babylon 5 did a great job with the serialisation (minus the final season, which was a result of real-world shit), it should be possible for Trek, too. Of course, the degree of DS9's serialisation would be fine for me, too. If producers think a cliffhanger at the end is what makes serialisation, they are wrong anyway. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, it's the quality of the writing. (Plus direction and acting ofc, but mostly the writing.) Not just story arcs, also characters, character development, and dialogue. "Unification III" was fairly episodic, but imo, the soapy story and dialogue sucked. Hard. Somewhere upthread someone wrote they prefer character stuff/ drama to action stuff. So do I, but DSC is so very bad at it!

In its first three seasons, Babylon 5's serialisation was about the same level as DS9's or The X-Files' or Buffy the Vampire Slayer's: stand-alone episodes punctuated by "arc episodes" that pushed forwards the overall storyline. It wasn't until they got to Season 4 that they got to the point of almost every episode being dedicated to that one storyline, so they ratcheted it up and earned it over time.

[karaddin]

My biggest fear of shows switching back to episodic story telling is that they'll go back to the events of each episode having no weight. Probably the best example of how this can hamstring an otherwise great story is the Tuvix episode of Voyager and its complete lack of any ongoing character influence. I don't *need* a long term arc, but I need the characters to be informed by the events they have gone through. I'd say Farscape is one of the prime examples of that from before serialisation became he norm.

[Mindwalker]

18 hours ago, Werthead said:

In its first three seasons, Babylon 5's serialisation was about the same level as DS9's or The X-Files' or Buffy the Vampire Slayer's: stand-alone episodes punctuated by "arc episodes" that pushed forwards the overall storyline. It wasn't until they got to Season 4 that they got to the point of almost every episode being dedicated to that one storyline, so they ratcheted it up and earned it over time.

If memory serves me, I disagree. There were episodic plots, but there was also a steady buildup (e.g. the Nan/ Centauri conflict) and with some of the plots, in hindsight they were connected to the bigger picture. The tread was always woven through in some way or simmering in the background. That counts for serialisation as I define it, ymmv. It's not, ofc, in the sense of someone announcing, "We have got to solve this mystery from now on", of course. Maybe we have a different definition of serialisation. If you mean one ongoing plot from episode to episode, like a season long movie, then you are right.

[sifth]

15 hours ago, karaddin said:

My biggest fear of shows switching back to episodic story telling is that they'll go back to the events of each episode having no weight. Probably the best example of how this can hamstring an otherwise great story is the Tuvix episode of Voyager and its complete lack of any ongoing character influence. I don't *need* a long term arc, but I need the characters to be informed by the events they have gone through. I'd say Farscape is one of the prime examples of that from before serialisation became he norm.

See, I think the episodic structure just works better in Trek. Let's look at Enterprise for an example of this. That show started with massive story arc, similar in tone to DS9's Dominion War, right off the bat. The quality however of that show is often considered much inferior to DS9's, which I honestly agree with. However once season 4 rolled around and they got rid of/ended the Temporal Cold War arc and just went back to episodic adventures, the quality of the show improved a lot. Sadly by that point the damage was already done and hardly anyone was watching.

I agree with you that Farscape should be the gold standard for telling on going stories, with fun likeable characters. That show was so much fun, it had great main characters and awesome villains. It had ongoing story arcs, but plenty of great adventure of the week episodes. The show also had some over all great ideas, season 3 in particular.

I know I'm in the minority, when it comes to this opinion, but I really did not like the BSG remake. Don't get me wrong, the cast was amazing and is filled with actors and actresses I love, but the tone was just too dam dark and depressing. Some episodes of that show reminded me of how I felt in school after just witnessing 9/11, for some daft reason. It's strange too, because Ronald Moore wrote some great Star Trek episodes, but I guess giving him freedom to make something as dark and as miserable as he likes was the issue though.

[DaveSumm]

39 minutes ago, sifth said:

See, I think the episodic structure just works better in Trek. Let's look at Enterprise for an example of this. That show started with massive story arc, similar in tone to DS9's Dominion War, right off the bat. The quality however of that show is often considered much inferior to DS9's, which I honestly agree with. However once season 4 rolled around and they got rid of/ended the Temporal Cold War arc and just went back to episodic adventures, the quality of the show improved a lot. Sadly by that point the damage was already done and hardly anyone was watching.

That’s not quite right for Enterprise, Season 1 and 2 had the temporal Cold War as a backdrop but they were still very much episodic. Then Season 3 was a full season arc, the Xindi - almost every episode related to that in some way. They split the difference in Season 4, which was a collection of 2-3-4 parters.

Actually, I think Season 3 is probably the most successful season arc that Trek has done. They managed to find a lot of episode long plots that still propelled the season forwards, I don’t know why Discovery is struggling so much with this.

[Plessiez]

I'd agree that this season has definitely lost its way, but I'm not sure it's gone wrong in the same way that the second season did.  That season (and arguably the first as well) both ended up being consumed by a fairly ridiculously plot about saving all life in the galaxy/universe/multiverse from some superpowerful threat, with Burnham somewhat implausibly at the centre of it all.  But this season the main mystery arc is weirdly anticlimatic and the closest thing to central villains for this season are just ... generic evil space pirates?  Compared to last season, it seems almost directionless.

But honestly I'm really just posting to join the chorus of people saying nice things about Farscape.  I've been rewatching it recently and it really does do a pretty great job of having the monster-of-the-week episodes actually matter in terms of how they affect the main characters in later episodes.  (Except for season one's "Jeremiah Crichton", which is still awful twenty years later.)

54 minutes ago, sifth said:

I know I'm in the minority, when it comes to this opinion, but I really did not like the BSG remake.

I think the first season of the BSG remake is pretty good, if a little bleak, but it definitely started to go downhill fast during its second season and I found it basically unwatchable by the middle of the third season.

[felice]

5 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

If memory serves me, I disagree. There were episodic plots, but there was also a steady buildup (e.g. the Nan/ Centauri conflict) and with some of the plots, in hindsight they were connected to the bigger picture. The tread was always woven through in some way or simmering in the background.

Yeah. I'm currently rewatching DS9 (most of the way through season 4 now) and have been surprised at how little serialisation there is compared to B5. There are several ongoing arcs, but they may as well not exist outside the occasional episode dedicated to them (I know there are a lot more arc episodes in the last couple of seasons). B5 had a lot more going on in the background of episodes with standalone main plots to tie it all together.

[RumHam]

Seems like Jeri Ryan is coming back for season two if Picard. She tweeted something about them filming in February. I'm shocked they haven't given her her own spin-off yet. 

[Mindwalker]

3 hours ago, felice said:

Yeah. I'm currently rewatching DS9 (most of the way through season 4 now) and have been surprised at how little serialisation there is compared to B5. There are several ongoing arcs, but they may as well not exist outside the occasional episode dedicated to them (I know there are a lot more arc episodes in the last couple of seasons). B5 had a lot more going on in the background of episodes with standalone main plots to tie it all together.

To be fair, they did a good job in building the characters (more so than B5, I think), and they tried a bit with developing Bajoran politics. But yeah.

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Seems like Jeri Ryan is coming back for season two if Picard. She tweeted something about them filming in February. I'm shocked they haven't given her her own spin-off yet. 

I'd totally watch a Seven show, but I'm quite happy to have her return to Picard. I hope they make her a regular, though. Harry Treadstone does not return according to SPS, so there's a free spot!

[Werthead]

20 hours ago, felice said:

Yeah. I'm currently rewatching DS9 (most of the way through season 4 now) and have been surprised at how little serialisation there is compared to B5. There are several ongoing arcs, but they may as well not exist outside the occasional episode dedicated to them (I know there are a lot more arc episodes in the last couple of seasons). B5 had a lot more going on in the background of episodes with standalone main plots to tie it all together.

Yeah, DS9 never got as serialised as B5 at its height. Seasons 1-2 are effectively not serialised at all (apart from the four-part Bajor arc that ends Season 1 and starts Season 2), they're almost entirely stand-alones with acknowledged continuity (the Dominion being mentioned in 3-4 episodes before they actually show up). Season 3 is about as serialised as B5 Season 1: almost entirely stand-alones, but there's a good 6-8 episodes which are important in moving the main story arc forwards. Seasons 4 and 5 are about as serialised as B5 Season 2 and Seasons 6 and 7 are about as serialised as B5 Season 3, maybe. And they never get anywhere close to the serialisation of B5 Season 4.

It does depend on where you draw the line though. Some of DS9's stand-alones are actually quite important from a character perspective: Doctor Bashir, I Presume? has nothing whatsoever to do with the Prophets, Dominion or Bajor, but it does completely transform Bashir's character (and our understanding of him) for the entire rest of the series, and the B-plot puts Rom and Leeta together, which helps Rom along the path that leads to him completely transforming Ferengi society and culture for good. Those three or four episodes they did on DS9 during the Occupation don't really do anything for the ongoing story, but they do inform the Cardassian/Bajoran, Kira/Dukat/Odo backstories in key ways.

[sifth]

12 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 It does depend on where you draw the line though. Some of DS9's stand-alones are actually quite important from a character perspective: Doctor Bashir, I Presume? has nothing whatsoever to do with the Prophets, Dominion or Bajor, but it does completely transform Bashir's character (and our understanding of him) for the entire rest of the series, and the B-plot puts Nog and Leeta together, which helps Nog along the path that leads to him completely transforming Ferengi society and culture for good. Those three or four episodes they did on DS9 during the Occupation don't really do anything for the ongoing story, but they do inform the Cardassian/Bajoran, Kira/Dukat/Odo backstories in key ways.

Rom, not Nog, but very good points all the same. DS9 was great at character building episodes. Like the episode, Solider of the Empire, where Worf and Dax join Martok's crew for an episode. This episode could very well stand on it's own, but in truth it is very important to Worf's character for the remainder of the show. Martok see's Worf's selfless actions and true value of honor and respects them so much, he welcomes Worf into his family. Worf is no longer part of an abandoned Klingon family and is now part of one of the highest and most respected ones in the Empire. This comes into play several more times in the series, such as his wedding episode and especially in the episode where he challenges Gowron for the throne.

[Poobah]

Yeah I think it's not necessarily about huge season-arcs but about internal continuity - where you get a feeling of progression for the characters and universe such that the events of a given episode aren't immediately forgotten and reset as soon as the titles roll which was essentially the case with Trek at its most episodic. @karaddin brought up Farscape (a show I love to bits) which as she mentioned does episodic while maintaining continuity extremely well.