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US Politics: Locking Up the Vote!


Fragile Bird

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Wait, are we actually agreeing, and just kind of yelling at each other?

I honestly have no idea.  My point is justices are political players or competitors, not referees.  I don't know what your point is other than people are fallible and don't like admitting it.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

In the opening, "But not all students benefit." Pretty easy to figure out here. Not everyone benefits from a rigid type of education. Sure. Duh. But then to just say do away with homework? 

And no, it's not. This is rather political, as education policy has been for years. 

But here is the key:

 

Which is specifically what I wrote before. The problem isn't homework, it's the means to deal with some of the challenges it proposes. Most of those outside of pure intelligence are rooted in SEC. Maybe fix that part first before judging the value of homework. 

Again, you are demonstrating a lack of knowledge on this subject.  My link was just a summary primer.  

I agree, the socioeconomic problems with schools need to be addressed, and yes, it is a political problem.  (Again, this touches on what I do for a living.)  The specific arguments about homework is probably a little too nuanced for this particular thread. 

Also, you took one line from the entire summary and summarily ignored the rest.  Homework, as it is used, is a part of an educational problem, because it's benefits are questionable, ACROSS ALL, socioeconomic status.  The issues are more pronounced the lower one goes.

With that said, there are benefits to learning how to independently learn (such as learning to read), and as it is being presented, we are probably not hitting that.  Right now, we aren't giving "quality" homework.

Now you want to talk about socioeconomic reform for education?  I am all on board that train as well.  We are already reaping the consequences of trying to make the schools, like the police, the one stop shop for social services.....annnnd we are tying that funding to land value, with all the problems that entails.  I don't think you will get much argument from me.

My only goal in the whole mention, that eliminating deadlines for homework is actually founded in science.

ETA: Now here is a counter article about the benefits of homework.  If I was more in the education field.  I would really want to read some Cook on this subject.  One of the interesting factors I found, which surprised me, is that there are those on the lower end of the socioeconomic scale that benefit from homework more than the upper end because it presents an opportunity for engagement not otherwise found.  I have not experienced that in my work, but I could see where that is coming from.

ETA2:  And from the article, they are again stating 10 minutes per grade level is the sweet spot, capping out to 90 Minutes a day for high school.  So you have usually around 7 classes, each of those classes would be giving out around 12 to 13 minutes of homework in that daily allotment.  That is a pretty big shift as well.

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6 minutes ago, DMC said:

I honestly have no idea.  My point is justices are political players or competitors, not referees.  I don't know what your point is other than people are fallible and don't like admitting it.

MY POINT FOR THE BETTER PART OF A FEW DAYS HAS BEEN SPECIFCALLY THIS!

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Starting to wonder about something pertaining to the left/right 'info bubbles'

As I understand it, not that long ago, Brietbart was once nothing more than the old Nazi 'Storm Front' site.  These days, though, Brietbart can almost masquerade as a legitimate, if far right news site - a fairly astonishing transformation.

Currently my Facebook is inundated with anti-Biden memes (mostly calling him a senile pedophile, a very strong, rapidly growing belief among conservatives).  These memes, I believe, largely originated or were reposted by Q Anon.  Purportedly, Q Anon has a US (?) membership into the millions and from what I've seen, conservatives regard it as credible.  Q Anon is also in serious trouble with the lords of Facebook and You-Tube, making them...semi-homeless.  So...I'm starting to wonder....maybe they'll embrace the break, take some dark money from some screwball rightwing billionaire, and found their own news network.  Given the number of conservatives already attuned to Q Anon and their unhappiness with FOX, this seems almost feasible - FOX being replaced by a network even more paranoid and deceitful. 

 

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1 hour ago, Castellan said:

I was an A student and in either streamed classes (ie schools that ranked pupils by performance in classes from A to D) or unstreamed systems I do not remember spare time.

I do know that as part of teacher training (I never went ahead and taught) they said that 90% of class time should be students working not the teacher talking. I don't think that's 'dead time'. That could be doing an experiment, small group discussions, acting out scenes from a book, participating in a teacher led discussion, reading out answers and discussing them etc, not just individual working on set tasks.

Not to mention the social aspect of all those activities.

Just getting assignments and doing them sounds soul destroying to me.

The student's were given work.  I'd finish it.  Then I'd read.  And the teachers were fine with that.  Very few involved other students, and when they did I did the work because otherwise the standard was crap.  

Streaming was for maths only, and only in the last years.  But then, I went to a public school in the countryside (Australia), and outside myself, my brother and 1 other, I don't think that school had anyone finish top 10% of the state for at least a decade.  Many of the teachers could have been replaced by mannequins with little ill effect on the students' education.  

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7 minutes ago, ants said:

The student's were given work.  I'd finish it.  Then I'd read.  And the teachers were fine with that.  Very few involved other students, and when they did I did the work because otherwise the standard was crap.  

Streaming was for maths only, and only in the last years.  But then, I went to a public school in the countryside (Australia), and outside myself, my brother and 1 other, I don't think that school had anyone finish top 10% of the state for at least a decade.  Many of the teachers could have been replaced by mannequins with little ill effect on the students' education.  

That was my experience with education too.  In essence, I would get all my work done and spend time reading a book.  

My personal opinion, is, at least the US Education System, struggles with what to do with students that don't fit the median.

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10 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

He's refering to when he prevented social housing programs i the suburbs.. . I forgot the details. Poor people would have moved there>> brown people >> crime and anarchy.

I see. So, essentially, keep those "bad" races and SES types out of the suburbs. You know, I hate to say it, but it's honestly a message that probably resonates with a ton of suburbanites. My mom and her friends vehemently opposed social housing in their neighborhood back when I used to still communicate with her.

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8 hours ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Good, homework, as it stands, is awful. It doesn't promote much learning and becomes a source of conflict.  It is one of the many things that needs to be rethought in our education system.

I'm working on my doctoral degree in educational psychology. I'm with you. Homework only punishes those who need the most help. Additionally, education in general, (speaking as a researcher and former middle school teacher), hold kids to ridiculous standards of timeliness that no adult has to live by. Sometimes deadlines are serious, and you meet them. Sometimes you talk to your peers and supervisors and ask for more time depending on the circumstances. 

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3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I did not, but I'll read it in a bit. However, I cannot agree with this at all. You're basically saying we should teach down to the worst students. And then when their parents bitch at you about their grades, you're just saying they don't need to turn their homework in on time the next time they receive an assignment. 

ETA:
 


Virtual education is inferior to learning in a classroom, and it's harder to wrangle 30 kids online than it is if they're in your room. 
 

How many low-paying (or no paying jobs as students are not paid) have you worked where every night and weekends you were sent home with two plus hours of extra work--for which, again, you weren't paid? It's bullshit. You can't argue around it. Look at good educational systems around the world. Some, like China, really push this framework to great success. Others, like Finland, don't have much homework (if any). 

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1 minute ago, Simon Steele said:

How many low-paying (or no paying jobs as students are not paid) have you worked where every night and weekends you were sent home with two plus hours of extra work--for which, again, you weren't paid? It's bullshit. You can't argue around it. Look at good educational systems around the world. Some, like China, really push this framework to great success. Others, like Finland, don't have much homework (if any). 

You mean like being a full time, unpaid intern, who also had to work weekends, while also being a full time student? ;)

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47 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

According to Kirschner, "super-precedent" is not a widely accepted concept.

Kirschner is being disingenuous at about the 6:50 mark there when he acts like Barrett is pulling the term out of her ass.  She's not, and the term was popularized in John Roberts' confirmation hearings when Arlen Specter said (paraphrasing) Roe should be a "super-duper" precedent.  Kirschner's qualms aren't with the concept of super-precedent but rather the cases Barrett does not think are super-precedents.  And so are mine.

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3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You mean like being a full time, unpaid intern, who also had to work weekends, while also being a full time student? ;)

Yeah, that's your choice, and guess what? No matter how much or little homework you get has literally nothing to do with college success. Primary and public school is compulsory, college is not. They are not comparable in this instance.

Edit: In fact, homework and punishment (low grades) prevent low SES students from going to college. 

You don't even need to be invested in this research to see how many other countries have successfully moved away from homework and their students flourish. 

This is literally an argument you can't win because you have no clue what you're talking about.

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46 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

That was my experience with education too.  In essence, I would get all my work done and spend time reading a book.  

My personal opinion, is, at least the US Education System, struggles with what to do with students that don't fit the median.

This has been the struggle with our daughter as well.  We are in one of the better school districts in the US, but even then, the pandemic has been an eye opening experience.  Our child is a 3rd grader but the classes have been literally focused on basic addition and subtraction with half the class struggling with the concepts of just number sequences.  In contrast, over the summer, as usual, our daughter went through "mommy boot camp" where we taught her fractions, geometry, and long division.  Now, as we have seen due to remote learning, she is bored out of her mind, responding to teachers asking her if she understood how to add 10+12.  While I can totally agree with you on the homework issued by the school which is just mindless work, we've figured that the only real chance for forward progress in our daughter's learning is by us teaching her. 

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6 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

You don't even need to be invested in this research to see how many other countries have successfully moved away from homework and their students flourish. 

Yeah, no. And you're not even being as nuanced as  @Guy Kilmore, who presents an interesting argument. One I disagree with, strongly, but I can accept he disagrees with mine too while also liking that we should spend a lot more on education, so we're not at odds, I hope. 
 

Quote

This is literally an argument you can't win because you have no clue what you're talking about.

I floated this with a few teachers I'm friends with and they all just laughed at it. No homework? Really? Even just no deadlines? It's chaos. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Yeah, no. And you're not even being as nuanced as  @Guy Kilmore, who presents an interesting argument. One I disagree with, strongly, but I can accept he disagrees with mine too while also liking that we should spend a lot more on education, so we're not at odds, I hope. 
 

I floated this with a few teachers I'm friends with and they all just laughed at it. No homework? Really? Even just no deadlines? It's chaos. 

 

Lol. Do some research. 

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2 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

How many low-paying (or no paying jobs as students are not paid) have you worked where every night and weekends you were sent home with two plus hours of extra work--for which, again, you weren't paid? It's bullshit. You can't argue around it. Look at good educational systems around the world. Some, like China, really push this framework to great success. Others, like Finland, don't have much homework (if any). 

I have that kind of job where I do hours of work at home nightly for which I am not paid. I do not recommend this model (or my profession itself) for most people. I would not consider it low paying in my case currently, but it is in the first few (or several) years while one establishes themself. You also have to touch and shave strangers, which is suboptimal. However, it is the greatest of all jobs except for baby walrus caretaker at the Alaska Sea Life Center. 

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