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James Steller

Would Lyanna have been happy with anyone other than Robert?

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I’m not going to have a talk about Rhaegar and Lyanna because we don’t know the situation.

What we DO know is that Lyanna was not happy about marrying Robert. Even Ned Stark knew that to be true, he just wasn’t brave enough to tell Robert the truth all those years.

I recently commented on another thread that Robert probably should have abdicated his position as Lord of Storm’s End and given the title to Stannis. But would that have changed matters? Lyanna and Stannis aren’t the first couple I’d think of, but Stannis isn’t a hedonist or a rampant adulterer (though to be fair I don’t think he’d have been comfortable with Lyanna nor she with him).
But what about other possibilities. Edmure and Viserys were too young, Jon Arryn was too old. Rhaegar was taken by the time that Lyanna came of age. Assuming we’re only looking at Great Houses, that leaves Jaime Lannister (before his Kingsguard vows anyway), Oberyn Martell, maybe Willas Tyrell, Baelor Hightower (because the Hightowers count as Great Houses, I won’t argue about it), maybe Balon Greyjoy (not that I’d pick him, for obvious reasons), and maybe that’s it? 
I feel like Oberyn Martell is the only viable candidate; he’s got no issue with women learning how to ride and fight, he’s sexually explorative and open, and he’s also got bad boy cred in buckets. Maybe if Rickard had been smart enough to see where Lyanna would be happiest, things would have been so much different.

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2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I feel like Oberyn Martell is the only viable candidate; he’s got no issue with women learning how to ride and fight, he’s sexually explorative and open, and he’s also got bad boy cred in buckets. Maybe if Rickard had been smart enough to see where Lyanna would be happiest, things would have been so much different.

Lyanna would have disliked Oberyn just as much as Robert. If she griped about Robert's infidelity, she's not going to be happy with him fathering the Sand Snakes. 

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No.

From the characters we know, Garlan and Willas Tyrell seem to be the nicest chaps. They are the living representation of the chivalry values. They areboth  younger than Lyanna, which is a problem.

But the problem with Lyanna is with a society that disallow the development of women transforming them just in a way to continue dynasties. It seems that Lyanna had a problem with that and at the end she became so desperate that run away with a married man.

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53 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

No.

From the characters we know, Garlan and Willas Tyrell seem to be the nicest chaps. They are the living representation of the chivalry values. They areboth  younger than Lyanna, which is a problem.

But the problem with Lyanna is with a society that disallow the development of women transforming them just in a way to continue dynasties. It seems that Lyanna had a problem with that and at the end she became so desperate that run away with a married man.

If that's true, then it's the biggest irony of the whole story. Lyanna doesn't want to be defined by making babies so she runs off with a man whose only concern is making another baby?

Edited by Floki of the Ironborn

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43 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Given that she probably wasn't kidnapped isn't the answer kinda obvious?

All we can do is assume Rhaegar was her type. Proper mixture of chivlary, brains, artistic soul and handsomeness. Probably he was generous and kind too. It is really hard to guess who else it could be. I look at my friends / relatives I know for years and cannot say who should they be with to be happy / make good relationship. What appears to me may turn out to be completely false.

 

Edited by broken one

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4 hours ago, James Steller said:

I’m not going to have a talk about Rhaegar and Lyanna because we don’t know the situation.

What we DO know is that Lyanna was not happy about marrying Robert. Even Ned Stark knew that to be true, he just wasn’t brave enough to tell Robert the truth all those years.

I recently commented on another thread that Robert probably should have abdicated his position as Lord of Storm’s End and given the title to Stannis. But would that have changed matters? Lyanna and Stannis aren’t the first couple I’d think of, but Stannis isn’t a hedonist or a rampant adulterer (though to be fair I don’t think he’d have been comfortable with Lyanna nor she with him).
But what about other possibilities. Edmure and Viserys were too young, Jon Arryn was too old. Rhaegar was taken by the time that Lyanna came of age. Assuming we’re only looking at Great Houses, that leaves Jaime Lannister (before his Kingsguard vows anyway), Oberyn Martell, maybe Willas Tyrell, Baelor Hightower (because the Hightowers count as Great Houses, I won’t argue about it), maybe Balon Greyjoy (not that I’d pick him, for obvious reasons), and maybe that’s it? 
I feel like Oberyn Martell is the only viable candidate; he’s got no issue with women learning how to ride and fight, he’s sexually explorative and open, and he’s also got bad boy cred in buckets. Maybe if Rickard had been smart enough to see where Lyanna would be happiest, things would have been so much different.

Aside from the Lyanna issue, Robert did something interesting by giving Dragonstone to Stannis, because it was the official seat of the heir of the IT. He could've left it vacant, and given it to Joffrey once he came of age, but he didn't. He gave it to Stannis, and kept it that way. 

He could've given Storm's End to Stannis, but he couldn't have given Renly Dragonstone instead, because that would've opened up the door to similar inheritance issues as the Blackfyre sword did with the Blackfyre rebellions.

Stannis felt that being given Dragonstone was an insult, but it actually was an honour. He could've chosen to give Stannis Storm's End and Dragonstone as a temporary seat, because he probably needed someone there to keep an eye on the inhabitants, and the Velaryons, because they were obviously still loyal to the Targaryens, and have given Renly another seat, but he didn't. All in all, giving Dragonstone to Stannis was by all means an insult to his future heir Joffrey, than to Stannis. It's quite symbolic that Robert's true heir had the seat of the Prince of Dragonstone, rather than his official heir.

Robert DID give up Storm's End though, he just have it to Renly rather than Stannis.

 

On the matter of Lyanna; Stannis would've been a terrible match. He's very misogynistic, and can't cope with women who don't fit into their gender role. Renly might have beetje best choice of the three, even though he was gay. I could see them having a good time together. Renly was a way too young though.

Rickard was focusing his attention southwards, making alliances with other great houses, but there may well have been some viable options in the North. Rickard Karstark perhaps, although he was probably quite a bit older than Lyanna, or the Great job; I think those two would've gotten along nicely. Lyanna seems like a person who would've earned his respect soon enough, and he's extremely loyal to those who've earned it. Both of them might have already been married at the time of the Tourney of Harrenhal, but I'm sure their fathers would've proposed the match to Rickard, before making a different one. Jorah Mormont could've been interesting as well, as his first wife died prior to Robert's Rebellion, and he was still quite young. I think Lyanna would've fit in quite well on Bear Island.

Jaime Lannister could've been an interesting match, and I don't know if Aerys would've made him kingsguard if he'd already been betrothed. I have doubts about how happy the marriage would've been, but Lyanna might have been interesting enough to get Jaime's attention away from Cercei, once he got to know her better, and at the very least Jaime is loyal to the woman he loves.

Oberyn could've been interesting too. I'm sure she would've enjoyed being treated as an equal, and in Dorne it would've been acceptable to be into swordfighting as a woman. I can imagine Lyanna being happy in Dorne. It depends if it was just Robert's infidelity that put her off, or something else.

Willas seems to be closest to Rhaegar in personality, so he might be the best match. He's younger than Lyanna, and it depends on his exact age of he'd be a viable match. Lyanna was born in 266 or 267, Willas between 269 and 276. So he could be too young. 

Edmure wasn't necessarily too young either, he was born between 267 and 274, it wouldn't make sense to marry two children into the same house though, so that would've meant making a different match for Brandon.

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23 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Oberyn could've been interesting too. I'm sure she would've enjoyed being treated as an equal, and in Dorne it would've been acceptable to be into swordfighting as a woman. I can imagine Lyanna being happy in Dorne. It depends if it was just Robert's infidelity that put her off, or something else.

 

I agree. Robert was hopeless simpleton in general. I usderstad Cersei's repulsion well. I am not sure if the presumable infidelity was the core of the problem Lyanna had with him. Sometimes we can take some things from some people, and form other people - not.

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27 minutes ago, broken one said:

I agree. Robert was hopeless simpleton in general. I usderstad Cersei's repulsion well. I am not sure if the presumable infidelity was the core of the problem Lyanna had with him. Sometimes we can take some things from some people, and form other people - not.

I agree. I think Lyanna saw quite clearly that Robert loved the idea of her, rather than who she was. I believe that she instinctively knew that he would fall out of love with her once they were married, and would possibly mistreat her, as he did with Cercei (although probably to a lesser extent). She sensed that he didn't respect women, and that their personalities would clash, since she was way too proud to be treated as a plaything.

Oberyn may not be her dreamboat, and he would probably have been unfaithful as well, but he would at the very least have treated her as an actual person. I don't think that Lyanna was entirely unwilling to accept a match that wasn't her ideal marriage, she knew how their world worked. She just knew that Robert would have been a very bad match for her personality.

Robert may have fallen in love with her wild character (I do think that this appealed to him, but only as an idea, not for an actual marriage), but Robert would've been better of with a rather meek and gentle wife, who wouldn't have clashed with him the way Lyanna would have, and Cercei did. He also needed someone who admired him. I think Lysa could've been a decent match for Robert..

She might not have slept with LF had she been betrothed to a handsome man like Robert, and she went mad, not just from the abortion, but also all the miscarriages afterwards, and generally be being married to a very old man. She could've had healthy children with Robert, and might have been quite happy that way.

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7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Given that she probably wasn't kidnapped isn't the answer kinda obvious?

Probably only. Not a certainty. We dunno for sure. Howland Reed is still my best bet. Only meaningful relationship she had with a male who wasn't kin. 

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10 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

If that's true, then it's the biggest irony of the whole story. Lyanna doesn't want to be defined by making babies so she runs off with a man whose only concern is making another baby?

That's not irony, that's deeply inconsistent. On GRRM's part, if that's true. I can buy that Lyanna was a teenage girl full of frustrated hormones who fell head over heels for a hot prince who's as emo as her. But if she was genuinely trying to avoid being just another baby-maker and she went with frigging Rhaegar, that's just a really stupid plot point as far as I'm concerned. Let's not try and turn Lyanna into Arya Stark, here; yes, they share a bit in common, but Lyanna is equal parts Sansa Stark.

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20 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

That's not irony, that's deeply inconsistent. On GRRM's part, if that's true. I can buy that Lyanna was a teenage girl full of frustrated hormones who fell head over heels for a hot prince who's as emo as her. But if she was genuinely trying to avoid being just another baby-maker and she went with frigging Rhaegar, that's just a really stupid plot point as far as I'm concerned. Let's not try and turn Lyanna into Arya Stark, here; yes, they share a bit in common, but Lyanna is equal parts Sansa Stark.

Having a child or even more does not make one "just another baby maker". If you love sb it may happen you have sex with the person and consequence of sex may be a child. And it does not mean you have to start looking for an abortion clinique, even if you're  XXI century western-extremely-busy-big-city-businesswoman and Lyanna was not one. She just wanted more freedom than most women had and maybe she thought Rhaegar could have given it to her, unlike Robert. The fact she liked to ride horse and fight with sword does not mean she wanted to be a man.

Anyway, I imagine it was all not so simple, flat 1:0 thing. Just like in real life, this is one of reasons I like the books so much.

Edited by broken one

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7 minutes ago, broken one said:

Having a child or even more does not make one "just another baby maker". If you love sb it may happen you have sex with the person and consequence of sex may be a child. And it does not mean you have to start looking for an abortion clinique, even if you're  XXI century western-extremely-busy-big-city-businesswoman and Lyanna was not one. She just wanted more freedom than most women had and maybe she thought Rhaegar could have given it to her, unlike Robert.

Anyway, I imagine it was all not so simple, flat 1:0 thing. Just like in real life, this is one of reasons I like the books so much.

Complexity is what drew me to this story in the first place. But how exactly would Lyanna expect more freedom from the heir to the throne of the Seven Kingdoms who's not only a married man, but who's only concerned about making a third head for the dragon. 

I'm not saying Lyanna has to be a third wave feminist. I'm saying that her motivations need to have some kind of consistency. I can buy that she fell head over heels for Rhaegar and wanted to be with it. I can buy that he convinced her that they needed to save the world by making the Prince that was Promised. But if Lyanna was mature and smart enough to see the rampant sexism all around her and she wanted to avoid that kind of a life, she surely would not have run off with Rhaegar Targaryen? 

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4 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Let's not try and turn Lyanna into Arya Stark, here; yes, they share a bit in common, but Lyanna is equal parts Sansa Stark.

"Equal parts" This is so funny. 

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18 minutes ago, MissM said:

"Equal parts" This is so funny. 

Not the best way I should have worded it, fair. But my point is, Lyanna Stark has a lot in common with Sansa. Both of them hate seeing people bullied and stand up for them when possible (Dontos, Howland), and if Sansa had been at the Tourney of Harrenhal, she'd have been weeping over Rhaegar too. They both went crazy for the handsome guy who was not only the winner of the tourney but who also sang beautifully at dinner. They're both clearly romantics.

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44 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Not the best way I should have worded it, fair. But my point is, Lyanna Stark has a lot in common with Sansa. Both of them hate seeing people bullied and stand up for them when possible (Dontos, Howland), and if Sansa had been at the Tourney of Harrenhal, she'd have been weeping over Rhaegar too. They both went crazy for the handsome guy who was not only the winner of the tourney but who also sang beautifully at dinner. They're both clearly romantics.

You're overreaching here. Sansa isn't the way she is because of traits that she shares with Lyanna. Arya also admires knights and gets moved by good music. Sansa's different, she actively fights against her Northern ancestry for a good portion of the first book, it's her southron Tully ancestry rearing itself inside of her. And because she grew up in the North and never became well versed in courtly intrigue or how to play the game, she's got to learn a lot of lessons the hard way.

Edited by Floki of the Ironborn

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16 hours ago, James Steller said:

 Assuming we’re only looking at Great Houses,

I don't see why we should impose that restriction. If we look at the Stark geneaological tree, Stark daughters had been marrying with their vassals for centuries. Marrying outside the North would be the exception, rather than the norm.3

4 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

I can buy that Lyanna was a teenage girl full of frustrated hormones who fell head over heels for a hot prince who's as emo as her. But if she was genuinely trying to avoid being just another baby-maker and she went with frigging Rhaegar, that's just a really stupid plot point as far as I'm concerned.

It's not unlikely that Rhaegar, just as he was open with Elia about it, shared with Lyanna his beliefs about the need to produce a "Prince That Was Promised" who'll fulfill the "Song of Ice and Fire". Giving birth to the saviour of the world it's much more than being "just another baby-maker"

By the way, I'll have to try this pick-up line next time I have the chance: "I've heard of a prophecy claiming that we need to have a child to save mankind from apocalypsis. Let's have sex."

 

11 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Stannis felt that being given Dragonstone was an insult, but it actually was an honour. He could've chosen to give Stannis Storm's End and Dragonstone as a temporary seat, because he probably needed someone there to keep an eye on the inhabitants, and the Velaryons, because they were obviously still loyal to the Targaryens, and have given Renly another seat, but he didn't. All in all, giving Dragonstone to Stannis was by all means an insult to his future heir Joffrey, than to Stannis. It's quite symbolic that Robert's true heir had the seat of the Prince of Dragonstone, rather than his official heir.

The problem is that while Dragonstone is a very prestigious seat, it's prestige was linked to the Targaryen dynasty and the fact that it had been always held by the heir to the throne. Once the Targaryens were gone and the crown's heir resided in King's Landing, Dragonstone was just a moistly gloomy castle on a small island. Prestige would fade with time, and Renly's heirs will end being richer and more powerful than Stannis' heirs.

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1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

You're overreaching here. Sansa isn't the way she is because of traits that she shares with Lyanna. Arya also admires knights and gets moved by good music. Sansa's different, she actively fights against her Northern ancestry for a good portion of the first book, it's her southron Tully ancestry rearing itself inside of her. And because she grew up in the North and never became well versed in courtly intrigue or how to play the game, she's got to learn a lot of lessons the hard way.

Oh right, because Andals=Bad and First Men=Good, how stupid of me to forget!

Spare me. This is just anti-Sansa attitude mixed with pro-North posturing. 

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