Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

On a slight tangent from that, it occurs to me that if they are indeed spirits of the air, normally unseen because they're off the human spectrum, and only becoming visible to humans when they deliberately assume corporeal bodies of snow and ice - or of green leaves and moss - then they may be more ubiquitous than we know.

And as a further thought, I wonder whether the direwolves can see them 

An interesting thought which brings me to Rickon and the important part he has to play.  Shaggy Dog and his eyes of green fire come to mind.  I wonder if it is Rickon who will be able to see the green men and talk to trees like Howland Reed.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"

"No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

 

.

 

[Matthew.]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Wow! Just Wow!  What a pleasure it is to hear from you Matthew.  Your explanation and quote feels so right to me.  Wonderful insight.  

Thank you, I've been following the conversation for the past few threads and agreeing with a lot of what you were saying, so I figured I'd chime in.
 

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

However, I can't help but feel that there's something more to it than "winterising" and that while the magic may be the same, the green and the white shadows are at least "different" if not actually opposed.

This is the area where things become more hazy--for simplicity's sake, I like to view both Green Men and the Others as being created by the magic of the CotF, but where (and why) the Others enter the picture opens quite a few more prospects.

For one thing, at one point, the magic of the CotF appears to have become the magic of the First Men also, so even if the Others were made with the magic of the old gods, it does not necessarily follow that they were made by the CotF themselves.

A couple broad strokes scenarios I've considered would be:

Scenario A:  The traditional chronology is wrong, and the war between the CotF and First Men was actually ended during the Long Night, with the Last Hero "crying pax" as has been suggested throughout Heresy's history. The CotF try to stop men at the Arm of Dorne, fail, try to stop them at the Neck, fail, and finally halt their advances at the Haunted Forest; the Wall is established, the Nightfort acts as the 'gate' between realms, and peace is maintained until the era of the Night King and Brandon the Breaker.

Scenario B:  The traditional chronology is roughly correct--the Pact is established, and some men willingly become Green Men to act as defenders of the Isle of Faces, and perhaps other weirwood groves as well. Eventually, the potential of the CotF's magic is abused, culminating in the Starks creating WWs to become ascendant in the North, or to give themselves an escape from death.

Scenario C:  The story, as presented by Luwin and Bran in GoT is roughly correct, with the caveat that men eventually started to violate the Pact, prompting the CotF to create the Others out of desperation, and hide away in their warded burrows.


Regardless of the exact origins of the Others, I do believe that they are not presently under the control of the CotF (if they were ever under control in the first place).

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not at all convinced that "the return of the white walkers is relatively new". We've discussed in the past how there does seem to be a long tradition of them being "native" to the Haunted Forest. Even Mormont, remember, wasn't ringing bells that the old semi-mythical enemy had suddenly returned after thousands of years. What bothered him was that they had been seen nearly as far south as Eastwatch.

As to Craster and the gods, taken in conjunction with what the women are saying, he regards himself as right with the gods, the cold ones who come in the night, because he gives them his sons and so doesn't need to flee south with Mance's people, who don't.

 

That quote about Mormont and Eastwatch was during a conversation with Tyrion well before the Watch even finds Othor and Jafer.

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion III

The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face." Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. "You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."

"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."

 

Mormont was concerned and it wasn't because of the change of season to winter. He said "darkness is coming" and connected "darkness" to his observances of direwolves, mammoths, and snow bears - which are a return of extinct animals. This must be an unbelievable claim, because Tyrion doesn't take him seriously and throws out his snarky retort about merlings which are similar to mermaids.

We've been so hung up about what he said about white walkers that we skipped over where Mormont has "seen" darker shapes in his dreams. He seems to be viewing his disturbing dreams as having some significance.

 

After they find Othor and Jafer, Mormont commands that the woods and area within ten leagues of the Wall be searched for wildings or anything else - meaning evidence of white walkers and wights.

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"I will have these woods searched," Mormont commanded Ser Jaremy as they set out. "Every tree, every rock, every bush, and every foot of muddy ground within ten leagues of here. Use all the men you have, and if you do not have enough, borrow hunters and foresters from the stewards. If Ben and the others are out here, dead or alive, I will have them found. And if there is anyone else in these woods, I will know of it. You are to track them and take them, alive if possible. Is that understood?"

 

If Mormont's position was that white walker have always been around then why did he say it's been eight thousand years?

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"Spare me your but's, boy," Lord Mormont interrupted. "I would not be sitting here were it not for you and that beast of yours. You fought bravely … and more to the point, you thought quickly. Fire! Yes, damn it. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure … yet if the Night's Watch does not remember, who will?"

 

 

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

So why does Craster sacrifice to the cold gods?  Why do the wildlings allow it?  The Starks have forgotten their obligations to provide greenseers to the old gods. But the wildlings have not.  So they provide the Stark bloodline (by way of Craster) to appease the cold gods and honor the Pact at the same time, since they cannot escape over the Wall.   

Because he thinks he inherited his father's curse. His father was cursed because he broke his vows as a man of the Watch to father no children, and then denied that he broke his vow. Craster is quite proud of the fact that none of his children are bastards. Child sacrifice is thought to be an extreme extension of the idea that, the more important the object of sacrifice, the more devout the person giving it up is.

[Melifeather]

On the subject of child sacrifice...

The Maya people believed that supernatural beings had power over their lives. The sacrifices were essentially to satisfy the supernatural beings. This was done through k'ex, which is an exchange or substitution of something. Through k’ex infants would substitute more powerful humans. It was thought that supernatural beings would consume the souls of more powerful humans and infants were substituted in order to prevent that. 

Infants were believed to be good offerings because they have a close connection to the spirit world through liminality. "Liminality" is a state of transition from one stage of life to the next.

Mayan depictions of child sacrifice demonstrate that this was a very emotional time for the parents, but they would carry through because they thought the child would continue to exist. It is also known that infant sacrifices occurred at certain times. Child sacrifice was preferred when there was a time of crisis and transitional times such as famine and drought.

It is possible that Craster thought he needed multiple wives, because firstborn sons would be desired over all other children. The firstborn son carries redemption for a firstborn son, meaning Craster was a firstborn son, therefore his firstborn sons would redeem him. Living firstborn sons inherited double portions further emphasizing their importance.

As for how Craster justified marrying his own daughters, I think we might look to the Bible account of Lot and his two daughters after they escaped the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and after his wife turned to a pillar of salt. Apparently his son-in-laws perished also, because the Bible states the idea came from the daughters and that they got their father drunk. Of course, blame the women! 

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And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the world. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, so that we may preserve offspring through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night; and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; he did not know when she lay down or when she rose.

It just occurred to me that Craster might be restricting his marriages to only firstborn daughters, so in his mind this might make everything double-double holy (moly). 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Regardless of the exact origins of the Others, I do believe that they are not presently under the control of the CotF (if they were ever under control in the first place).

This is an important point. Whether white or green the shadows we're discussing are to quote GRRM "not dead", they're not brain-dead wights. They are alive and have minds of their own. 

To switch sideways they are like the clone troopers in Star Wars. The supposed rationale for creating a slave army was that if they are living humans they can out-think tin droids. In other words they have free will. Same applies to the Walkers. The magic may ultimately perhaps come from the trees, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are controlled by the trees.

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Mormont was concerned and it wasn't because of the change of season to winter. He said "darkness is coming" and connected "darkness" to his observances of direwolves, mammoths, and snow bears ...

We've been so hung up about what he said about white walkers that we skipped over where Mormont has "seen" darker shapes in his dreams. He seems to be viewing his disturbing dreams as having some significance.

...If Mormont's position was that white walker have always been around then why did he say it's been eight thousand years?

 

Yes it does seem contradictory if we focus solely on the White Walkers, but there is indeed evidence of their continuing/recent presence. Mormont's comment is focussed not on their appearance but on how disturbingly close they have approached. Whatever the truth of what's been going on at Craster's, they've been turning up there for a long time, Gared hints at their presence in the forest as do the records Sam researches at Castle Black - no he doesn't find much there, but its implied that he does find some references to them, - but nothing, oddly enough about how the battle for the Dawn was won - and the Wildlings also fear something long before Mance rallies them

What Mormont fears is not the odd party of white shadows in the woods, but all the powers of Hell breaking loose for the first time in thousands of years. Ser Puddles and his mates are only the harbingers of that.

[LynnS]

Sorry, I'm binge watching The Magicians and they just broke the moon.  Now they have to wake the Kraken.  One of a few references to GoT.   The episode where Penny goes to the underworld to get information from the dead, also hilarious.  The only coin he can use is to tell a story.  "The white walkers! Right!  And the guy with the dope outfit and eight dragons." 

[LynnS]

I have trouble with the chronologies and timelines. Luwin is an unreliable narrator since he attempts to subvert and hide information.  So I start with Old Nan:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran I

The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

"Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.

"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

"Well," Bran said reluctantly, "yes, only …"

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

 

Old Nan says that the Others came for the first before the Andals and Rhoynish and they swept over the hundred kingdoms of men.  Before the Wall was raised.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

"The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes."

Bran's fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. "But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said."

 

I think most of what Old Nan is true and some of what Luwin says is true.

Although when Old Nan talks about the Long Night, she is talking about winter in general, where it can last a generation and people live and die in the dark (caves) to survive.    

What is missing in Luwin's chronology is the tale of the Last Hero which I think results in the Pact and ends the first long night.

The histories, legends and lore was released as an extra with the release of the GoT DVD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uE04nQfO-Q

 

 

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

I don't think we've ever zeroed in on this claim. We've always discussed the assumption that any children born were sacrificed, but Old Nan claims these children were "half-human" children. Is this the origin of skin-changers?

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What is missing in Luwin's chronology is the tale of the Last Hero which I think results in the Pact and ends the first long night.

The Pact was signed to halt the fighting between First Men and CofF. The Long Night came after the 4000 years of friendship, because its said the Pact held through the Long Night and until the Andals arrived and formed the Seven Kingdoms, defeating all the smaller First Men kingdoms save the North.

12,000 years ago First Men arrived

10,000 years ago the Pact was signed/Age of Heroes began

8,000 years ago was the Long Night, which lasted a "generation", typically 20-30 years. Battle for the Dawn after that, then the Wall built. 13 Lord Commanders later was the Nights King.

6,000 years ago the Andals arrived. Seven Kingdoms formed. 

1000 years ago the Rhoynar arrived

300 years ago the Targaryens arrived

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The Pact was signed to halt the fighting between First Men and CofF. The Long Night came after the 4000 years of friendship, because its said the Pact held through the Long Night and until the Andals arrived and formed the Seven Kingdoms, defeating all the smaller First Men kingdoms save the North.

Sure, I think there was more than one long night.  The first being described by Old Nan before the Wall.  

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 So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds –[2]

How does the Last Hero convince the gods to give them back what they have lost?  Their land?  The First Men have been defeated.  What ancient magic could the COTF give the last Hero to defeat their mutual enemy, the White Walkers and their armies?  How can one man defeat an army?  It must be a dragonglass sword and a trial by champion before the gods cold and otherwise.  To my mind, the defeat of the Others is the only thing that could result in the Pact.

There has been more than one Long Night and more than one weapon that can defeat them. Sam discovers that dragonsteel can also defeat the Others. If the COTF gave the LH a weapon to replace his shattered sword, it wasn't dragonsteel.  More Likely dragonglass, since this is something they also give in tribute or for protection to the NW.

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

Part of the LH story is missing.  I think it's a trial by combat, the defeat of winter and banishment of the Others, that ends the Dawn Age, followed by the Pact, The Wall and NW and the beginning of the Age of Heroes.  

The WW continue to be a threat, but a lesser threat than before the Wall.  It may be that their magic is bound up in the Wall, at the same time acting as a source of their power.  Ygritte may be correct that blood built the Wall.  So every time the Wildlings break themselves upon the Wall, the blood and ice magic gets a power-up.

So to Matthews point that the magic of the COTF has somehow been transferred to the Stark bloodline or taken from them brings me to the Night King.  I think he used the power of the Wall (as Mel suggests Jon can do) and it backfired.  There is always a price to pay for using magic.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Aye, m'lord," said Edd, "but all she knows is that she ran off during the battle and hid in the woods after. We filled her full of porridge, sent her to the pens, and burned the babe."

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

Is this the power of King's blood or Mel accessing the power of the Wall.  She comes close to burning herself up if it wasn't for Jon killing Rattleshirt. 

So what of Sam's discovery about dragonsteel.  Is this from a rare book, the Jade Compendium, but I doubt there has been any dragonsteel at the Wall until Mormont brought his sword.

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 Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"His Grace is not an easy man. Few are, who wear a crown. Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings."

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"

 Sounds much like Ser Puddles Stark except that he doesn't burst into flames like AA's beastie.  But that could be the difference between dragonglass breaking the spell and drawing out the cold; and dragonsteel injecting an overload of white hot dragon fire.

When does this happen?  I would think that if it occurred at the Wall, there would be more about it in their own records rather than an Essosi book sent by the Citadel at some point.

Is it possible that the First long night had a global impact since there was no Wall to contain it?

      

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

So I start with Old Nan:

Presumably Old Nan's history is a bit suspect since she dwells in the realm of folklore and bedtime tales, which don't have a great track record for historical accuracy.

My take, is that the White Walkers viewed by Will and Sam may not be the same as the historical White Walkers that came to have a conflict with the First Men during the Long Night.  Instead, Old Nan's tales of the White Walker as told to Bran may have influenced the creation of the "ice golem" White Walkers that exist in the stories.  Creatures magically created by ice to resemble Whitle Walkers as orally told over the generations as bed time stories and boogeymen to scare children into behaving.

(Take Ogres as an example.  Historically, Ogres may have been barbarians in the Hungary region, whose monstrous actions may have created folk tales casting them in the role as actual monsters.  So this monstrous, fantasy version of Ogres lives on as oral and written tales passed on through the generations.  So if you decided to craft an "Ogre" today perhaps using the imagination of a ten year old boy who watched Shrek too many times as a model, you might create something large, bald, and green as opposed to the actual Hungarian barbarian that may have been responsible for the tales of the "Ogres" of folklore.)

Historically, the White Walkers may have been a a biological lifeform similar to the First Men but perhaps with some genetic differences.  Perhaps a race of albino (hence "white") beings who had an aversion to sunlight, thus they didn't come into frequent contact with mankind until the Long Night put them on equal or greater footings than the humans that had taken over Westeros.  Perhaps these are the beings that made the oily black stone structures seen at Pyke, the Highgarden, ect.

If you look closely at Old Nan's tales, her white walkers enjoyed human blood and would actually mate with humans.  These ice golems we've seen don't seem capable of mating.  Instead we should be talking about a race of being that are human enough to be able to mate with traditional First Men humans.

In fact her description makes me think the vampire race in GRRM's Fever Dream.  A pale almost albino race of people who had a blood thirst for human blood and would painfully and ultimately fatally blister if exposed to sunlight for too long.  They existed concurrently with humans but lived in the shadows of humans because of their aversion to sunlight.  And their bloodlust apparently kept their race from advancing like humanity.

Now in our story we do have a number of characters who seem unusually pale, almost albino like.  Bloodraven, Melisandre, Illyrio, Biter, the denizens of Qarth ect.

So perhaps there was a very pale race of people who came into direct contact with human kind during the Long Night because habitable territory became scarcer during the Long Night.  And if this race had a natural aversion to sunlight, a Long Night may also explain why they came into conflict with the First Men.

 

[LynnS]

53 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Presumably Old Nan's history is a bit suspect since she dwells in the realm of folklore and bedtime tales, which don't have a great track record for historical accuracy.

She has reached an age where she gets thing jumbled up or mis-remembers and she is clearly telling Bran the scary stories he wants to hear; but I also think she is lucid in her storytelling for the most part.  Oral histories can be changed over time but sometimes they are so important that they are not changed and are handed down generation to generation ntact for the most part.  

When Nan talks about the long night; she is also talking about winters in general.  On Westeros they are long, people starve to death, women kill their babies, they live die in the dark caves near sources of thermal heat to survive as I suspect the wildlings do in a severe and long winter.  Wildling men chase women as a marriage tradition and producing half-human children seems a reference to wargs and skinchangers. 

I don't dispute that the wildlings have more history with the WW's or know more about them.  That seems pretty clear from the text.

The Others that Old Nan refers to could very well be wildlings.  The Other race you refer to could very well be the strange tribes of the North who take the brunt of WW predations before any of the other wildling tribes and have had their numbers drastically reduced.  

The business of drinking blood from cups seems suspect to me or it has another meaning.  We know the wights can smell and track hot blood.  Not so sure about the WWs.  I need something more to go that way.  Drink from a cup of ice, drink from a cup of fire, drink from a cup of blood?   I can think of Bran seeing the sacrifice and his mouth filling with the taste of blood.  This happens to various characters in the story including Tyrion when they bite their tongues and seem to have had a near death experience. Is this the cup of blood Nan refers to?

Things she says seem to have a context that isn't always obvious.  For example when Bran complains that the crow lied to him and she says all crows are liars.  Mormont gives the context:

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Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. "A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it."

 

I don't know who or what souls can turn into ice dancers/WWs but I think it includes wildlings, Craster's boys and Starks, 

In terms of Martin's other work Fevre Dream; is there any mention of souls or what happens to them in that story?   

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sure, I think there was more than one long night.  The first being described by Old Nan before the Wall.  

I agree there is contradicting text, specifically Old Nan's words regarding the first time the Others came. If there's a "first" time, then logically there's a second time.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

The second contradiction is when Sam finds the account where the Children gave the Nights Watch obsidian during the Age of Heroes, which should have came before the Long Night and before the Nights King.

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

Contradictions numbers three and four - As you've pointed out, all the Last Hero's companions died out, presumably leaving a solitary man, and the Wall isn't supposed to exist until after the Others are defeated, and yet there's a song about the Nights Watch riding out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

Much later, after all the sweets had been served and washed down with gallons of summerwine, the food was cleared and the tables shoved back against the walls to make room for the dancing. The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking.

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

My take, is that the White Walkers viewed by Will and Sam may not be the same as the historical White Walkers that came to have a conflict with the First Men during the Long Night.  Instead, Old Nan's tales of the White Walker as told to Bran may have influenced the creation of the "ice golem" White Walkers that exist in the stories.  Creatures magically created by ice to resemble Whitle Walkers as orally told over the generations as bed time stories and boogeymen to scare children into behaving.

I do like the idea that Bran has brought to life the "monsters" that weren't really literal monsters, for example lets just say the historical Others were simply people, but the white walkers of the current story are creations made to fit the descriptions. Sort of like Vlad the Impaler and the exaggerated caricature named Dracula.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Historically, the White Walkers may have been a a biological lifeform similar to the First Men but perhaps with some genetic differences.  Perhaps a race of albino (hence "white") beings who had an aversion to sunlight, thus they didn't come into frequent contact with mankind until the Long Night put them on equal or greater footings than the humans that had taken over Westeros.  Perhaps these are the beings that made the oily black stone structures seen at Pyke, the Highgarden, ect.

If you look closely at Old Nan's tales, her white walkers enjoyed human blood and would actually mate with humans.  These ice golems we've seen don't seem capable of mating.  Instead we should be talking about a race of being that are human enough to be able to mate with traditional First Men humans.

Are you thinking like our two humanoid ancestors the homo sapiens and Denisovans?

 

 

 

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

Much later, after all the sweets had been served and washed down with gallons of summerwine, the food was cleared and the tables shoved back against the walls to make room for the dancing. The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking.

Hah! Nice find!  Sounds like a tale of bravura to me turning the NW into heroes.  Great for recruiting. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I do like the idea that Bran has brought to life the "monsters" that weren't really literal monsters, for example lets just say the historical Others were simply people, but the white walkers of the current story are creations made to fit the descriptions. Sort of like Vlad the Impaler and the exaggerated caricature named Dracula.

That's sort of my thought.  And there may be some textual justification in the Worldbook:

Quote

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients - though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and the westerlands - does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north.  Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south.  That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle of dominion.

Now the reader of the Worldbook is going to dismiss this theory because they believe that the Others seen in the books are the same Others as the Others that existed in legend.  But it would be interesting if these monsters were actually created based on the tales told of an otherwise human tribe made monstrous through folk lore and exageration.  

So literally the monsters are made of frozen wind modelled on a monster that really only exists in oral folktales.  I.e., Words are Wind.

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Are you thinking like our two humanoid ancestors the homo sapiens and Denisovans?

No, but only because I had to look up Denisovans.  Now that I've looked it up, yes, something like that.  A closely related relative of humandkind.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge.

 This is what I was referring to earlier. Note the present tense

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The Others that Old Nan refers to could very well be wildlings.  The Other race you refer to could very well be the strange tribes of the North who take the brunt of WW predations before any of the other wildling tribes and have had their numbers drastically reduced.  

The business of drinking blood from cups seems suspect to me or it has another meaning.  We know the wights can smell and track hot blood.  Not so sure about the WWs.  I need something more to go that way.  Drink from a cup of ice, drink from a cup of fire, drink from a cup of blood?   I can think of Bran seeing the sacrifice and his mouth filling with the taste of blood.  This happens to various characters in the story including Tyrion when they bite their tongues and seem to have had a near death experience. Is this the cup of blood Nan refers to?

I had to go back and look at Old Nan's story to Bran again:

Quote

He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them.  The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves.  They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns.  And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

So the business of drinking blood from horns is actually about the Wildlings not the Others.  She describes the Others or White Walkers as:

Quote

"In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click.  "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.  They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain.  All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them.  They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children...

Heh, Old Nan's needles working away as she crafts a tale of the Others to Bran.  If Bran's consciousness later enters the weirnet, and if the weirnet uses Bran's consciousness to create a boogeyman to reach into the past to scare the humans south of the Wall,  then we see the White Walker's creation right here.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I don't think we've ever zeroed in on this claim. We've always discussed the assumption that any children born were sacrificed, but Old Nan claims these children were "half-human" children. Is this the origin of skin-changers?

Actually, being grown old in wickedness, I'm pretty sure that we have and its tied in with what we were discussing about Mormont's concerns earlier. If we think of the Others as the White Walkers; spirits of the air clad in bodies of snow and ice, then the begetting of children, whether "half-human" or otherwise, is a non-starter.

However it we turn it around slightly and look at it as the White Walkers are Others [ie: not like us] but not all Others are White Walkers, then the objection is removed. By lying with Others [such as three-fingered-tree-huggers], they produce wargs - who in turn, if powerful enough, can potentially go on to be Walkers

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 This is what I was referring to earlier. Note the present tense

Sam said "tales" as in plural so he was reading either eye-witness accounts or oral stories that had been written down. I actually don't think they were necessarily in present tense. Its only natural to regale a story in the present tense if its something that happened to you.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge.

I disagree. The tales are speaking about multiple appearances. As you yourself noted earlier, Old Nan's declaration that they came for the first time during the Long Night says as much and is entirely consistent with Sam's findings.

What troubles Mormont so much is not just the appearance of White Walkers so close to Eastwatch, but all those Other things as well