Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e

[LynnS]

A bit of an aside. I think that the term long night is a generic term for winter and the stories about what happens during the long night run together.  I think there has been more than one long night starting with the Last Hero.  What differs is the length, severity and the appearance of the White Walkers. 

I've been thinking about the long night in terms of the planet's wobble.  Earth wobbles on it's axis and we get the precession of the equinoxes.   Changes to this wobble may be tied to the receding ice age and plate tectonics and potentially to the length of the seasons.  Martin attributes the changes to have a magical cause in ice and fire.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/277696-nasa-determines-why-earth-wobbles-on-its-axis 

As to the origins of the WW and who they were and what they are now; I think the ice dancers were once the COTF. The sidth, the form of life to which Martin refers.  Now they take the shape of men.

It's also curious that Ygritte says that in digging up all those graves looking for the horn, that spirits have been released.  Who buries their dead instead of burning them as the wildlings do?  She says that Mance was digging beneath some glacier.  The men of the Watch have their lichyards.  So perhaps fallen men of the Watch were buried in ice in the North beyond the Wall at one time.  I've wondered if Coldhands was released from an icy grave and if the horns and dragonglass cache were in the grave with him. 

Is Coldhands another form of green man? 

 

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I disagree. The tales are speaking about multiple appearances. As you yourself noted earlier, Old Nan's declaration that they came for the first time during the Long Night says as much and is entirely consistent with Sam's findings.

What troubles Mormont so much is not just the appearance of White Walkers so close to Eastwatch, but all those Other things as well

I concede that there are contradictions in the text that make it difficult to definitively confirm our respective positions. To me it doesn’t make sense that Jon would need Sam to learn more about white walkers if the Watch was already familiar with them. Mormont said they had “forgotten” how to fight them, presumably because they haven’t seen them in thousands of years.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It's also curious that Ygritte says that in digging up all those graves looking for the horn, that spirits have been released.  Who buries their dead instead of burning them as the wildlings do?  She says that Mance was digging beneath some glacier.  The men of the Watch have their lichyards.  So perhaps fallen men of the Watch were buried in ice in the North beyond the Wall at one time.  I've wondered if Coldhands was released from an icy grave and if the horns and dragonglass cache were in the grave with him. 

Yet another contradiction! The Watch knows the wildlings burn their dead so how can there be any graves?  Especially since they’re specifically looking for the horn named for a famous King Beyond the Wall.

[LynnS]

47 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Yet another contradiction! The Watch knows the wildlings burn their dead so how can there be any graves?  Especially since they’re specifically looking for the horn named for a famous King Beyond the Wall.

The other contradiction is that the only King Beyond the Wall who isn't given a specific name is the Horned Lord. I wonder if this is Coldhands.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

The fat man was confused. "The elk?"

"Coldhands," said Bran impatiently. "The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too."

"He wasn't a green man. He wore blacks, like a brother of the Watch, but he was pale as a wight, with hands so cold that at first I was afraid. The wights have blue eyes, though, and they don't have tongues, or they've forgotten how to use them." The fat man turned to Jojen. "He'll be waiting. We should go. Do you have anything warmer to wear? The Black Gate is cold, and the other side of the Wall is even colder. You—

I wonder if the NW was a branch of the sacred order of the Green Men at one time.  Coldhands seems to qualify for having strange powers.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"

Bran shook his head. The day was growing old by then, and long shadows were creeping down the mountainsides to send black fingers through the pines. If the little crannogman could visit the Isle of Faces, maybe I could too. All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.

Mance's tent has an interesting description:

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There was no doubting which tent was the king's. It was thrice the size of the next largest he'd seen, and he could hear music drifting from within. Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men.

 

 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

A bit of an aside. I think that the term long night is a generic term for winter and the stories about what happens during the long night run together.  I think there has been more than one long night starting with the Last Hero.  What differs is the length, severity and the appearance of the White Walkers. 

I've been thinking about the long night in terms of the planet's wobble.  Earth wobbles on it's axis and we get the precession of the equinoxes.   Changes to this wobble may be tied to the receding ice age and plate tectonics and potentially to the length of the seasons.  Martin attributes the changes to have a magical cause in ice and fire.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/277696-nasa-determines-why-earth-wobbles-on-its-axis 

As to the origins of the WW and who they were and what they are now; I think the ice dancers were once the COTF. The sidth, the form of life to which Martin refers.  Now they take the shape of men.

It's also curious that Ygritte says that in digging up all those graves looking for the horn, that spirits have been released.  Who buries their dead instead of burning them as the wildlings do?  She says that Mance was digging beneath some glacier.  The men of the Watch have their lichyards.  So perhaps fallen men of the Watch were buried in ice in the North beyond the Wall at one time.  I've wondered if Coldhands was released from an icy grave and if the horns and dragonglass cache were in the grave with him. 

Is Coldhands another form of green man? 

 

Can we tie in the King's Guard with their white cloaks?

Let us assume we have a "different form of life" living in the North of Westeros, like Denisovans to humans so they can mate. It would make sense for them to have their soldiers dress in white cloaks as camouflage. And they walk as it is too cold for (living) horses -> White Walkers

The king's guard is reminiscence to them?

[Melifeather]

On 10/24/2020 at 10:56 AM, alienarea said:

Can we tie in the King's Guard with their white cloaks?

Let us assume we have a "different form of life" living in the North of Westeros, like Denisovans to humans so they can mate. It would make sense for them to have their soldiers dress in white cloaks as camouflage. And they walk as it is too cold for (living) horses -> White Walkers

The king's guard is reminiscence to them?

I had made the observation that the current number of white walkers correspond to the White Cloaks, Renlys Rainbow Guard, and the faces that make up the Faith, separating six members from their respective commanders though, which implies that the six white walkers have a seventh commander. Furthermore it seems to me that the wildlings were using the white walkers as their knights leading the way during the attack at the Fist.

[LynnS]

21 hours ago, alienarea said:

Can we tie in the King's Guard with their white cloaks?

I'm not sure how to tie them together.  What is the origin of the KG?

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The Kingsguard was founded during the reign of the first Targaryen king on the Iron Throne, Aegon the Conqueror. The first Kingsguard was created at the suggestion of Queen Visenya Targaryen, after a Dornish assassination attempt on Aegon and herself in the streets of King's Landing in 10 AC. She deliberately modeled the Kingsguard vows of holding no lands or title on the ancient vows of the Night's Watch, and seven knights were chosen because the king ruled the Seven Kingdoms.[36]

They are known as the white swords, white cloaks and often referred to as white shadows.  Their first duty is to protect the king and they are always present like the king's shadows.  Their vow is taken from the Andalized portion of the NW vow and their number seems more to do with the common religion of the people, the Faith of the Seven.  It's also curious that the table in the LC's quarters is made of weirwood and shaped like a shield.  This seems to be invoking the power of the old gods to shield or protect the king.

Who knows what Aegon and Torrhen Stark discussed before he bent the knee.  Aegon destroyed Harrenhal which stood as an affront to the old gods after the weirwood grove was destroyed in the building of Harrenhal.  Aegon slew the enemy of the old gods.  So perhaps he won the right of protection from the old gods.

So if the purpose of the KG is to protect the King; is it the purpose of the WWs to protect the greenseers? Or do they have any purpose at all? 

It's the purpose of the green men to protect the greenseers on the Isle of the Gods and I thought they were confined there.  I think it's curious that Old Nan says that they once rode across the land on elks.  Why?  What were they doing?

21 hours ago, alienarea said:

Let us assume we have a "different form of life" living in the North of Westeros, like Denisovans to humans so they can mate. It would make sense for them to have their soldiers dress in white cloaks as camouflage. And they walk as it is too cold for (living) horses -> White Walkers

I think it's possible that there was another humanoid race, one of the old races that has died out.  Since we are given examples of ice age animals; I think more in terms of Neanderthal and Cro-magnon interspecies breeding.  So did the First Men encounter such a race?  I think of the First Men migrating to Westeros, during an ice age, that provided land bridges, not unlike the Clovis people. 

Characterizing something  as "other" than yourself is a form of tribalism.  The wildlings are the Others to the Andals and the Andalized version of the Watch.   The WWs are the Others to the wildlings.  The COTF are the Others to the FM and vice versa. 

It's difficult for me to make a connection to another form of human, as the Others if they are the WWs.  Because I think their existence is rooted in ancient magic that has more to do with the COTF and their greenseers.   Something that has more to with Martin's version of the Sidhe. 

The Sidhe (shee) are considered to be a distinct race, quite separate from human beings yet who have had much contact with mortals over the centuries, and there are many documented testimonies to this. Belief in this race of beings who have powers beyond those of men to move quickly through the air and change their shape at will once played a huge part in the lives of people living in rural Ireland and Scotland.

These distinct categories of sidhe beings ties in with the testimonies of seers who divide the sidhe into wood spirits, water spirits, air spirits and so on, the elemental spirits of each place.

 

http://celticsociety.freeservers.com/sidhe.html

If anything, I would consider children who are given to the wood, to be Martin's version of changelings.

         

[Black Crow]

I'm obviously heavily influenced by my knowledge of the Sidhe, but nevertheless I feel GRRM's reference to them is very significant and think that my interpretation of the White Walkers as set out in the OP is entirely consistent with what he has [variously] written and makes sense in a way that no other explanation does. It can, obviously be expanded to encompass the Green Men and offers an opening not only into the Stark connection but also some of the other Winterfell mysteries and above all the Magick or more pointedly  the counterwight to the Fire/Dragon magic

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm obviously heavily influenced by my knowledge of the Sidhe, but nevertheless I feel GRRM's reference to them is very significant and think that my interpretation of the White Walkers as set out in the OP is entirely consistent with what he has [variously] written and makes sense in a way that no other explanation does. It can, obviously be expanded to encompass the Green Men and offers an opening not only into the Stark connection but also some of the other Winterfell mysteries and above all the Magick or more pointedly  the counterwight to the Fire/Dragon magic

I think we are getting closer to the nature of the green men.  I think their form is taken from the elemental magic of the place they inhabit and for the most part, I think they look like men, but are marked in some way.  They are soldiers, sentinels and at least some of them have wandered the land riding elks in the past.  So not confined to the Isle of the Gods.   There is some kind of magical connection to the trees or the wood.  I've speculated before that green men have been introduced to the story disguised as wandering septons and are marked by their feet.  They are barefoot as though to connect the elemental magic of earth and their feet look like gnarled tree roots.

Beyond the Wall,  Coldhands serves as the icy version of the green men;  one that is connected to the NW, the Wall and the Black Gate.  

As for the Stark connections to the magick of the old gods;  I think looking at the Stark kids and the powers that claims them is mostly what we have to go by.    They are marked by the eyes of their direwolves:

Arya - Nymeria with eyes like gold coins is claimed by the Faceless Men.

Bran - Summer with yellow-gold eyes like the sun is claimed by the COTF who have the same eyes

Jon - Ghost is claimed by the old gods; perhaps by greenseer Brynden Rivers 

Rickon - Shaggy Dog, with green fire in his eyes may be the chosen of the green men and/or the Storm gods. 

Sansa -  loses her wolf with yellow eyes but is given Winterfell in the snowflake communion.

Robb and Grey Wind are both sacrificed. 

Their growing powers are considerable although Jon has yet to show the powers he has been given.  Those powers may be tied to the magic and power of the Wall and the original oath of the NW going back to the first fortification, the Night Fort. 

What surprises me is that the Faceless Men have a claim on House Stark.   Is Braavos an outpost of the God's Eye and did the FM have something to do with the Doom of Valyria?  What happened to the Stark who disappeared sailing on the sea?

Jojen and Meera's oath of fealty:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught. "May your winters be short and your summers bountiful," he said. That was usually a good thing to say. "Rise. I'm Brandon Stark.

Its seems that they swear on the elemental magic of the crannogs they inhabit or by the elemental magic of the COTF.  Then on the crown of the Kings of Winter and strangely by ice and fire.  Which might not be so strange since the North is geologically a mixture of ice and fire, or frozen water and molten earth.  

Ice and fire could be the elemental magicks used in the Wall and the reason Melisandre seems to have been able to access it's power.  Although she may have delved too deep and nearly burned to a crisp.  Moqorro's warning about the Doom and delving too deep incurring the god's wrath comes to mind.

Jaqen also swears on him of fire, albiet somewhat reluctantly:

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A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

As Dany says, dragons are made of elemental magic, air and fire.  But what is this business of swearing by ice and fire and him of fire.

There is a suggestion in the World Book that the Targaryens and Starks formed a Pact of Ice and Fire.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Lords of Winterfell

Later still, it was said that the Starks were bitter at the Old King and Queen Alysanne for having forced them to carve away the New Gift and give it the Night's Watch; this may be one reason for why Lord Ellard Stark sided with Corlys Velaryon and Princess Rhaenys at the Great Council of 101 AC.

We have earlier discussed House Stark's role in the Dance of the Dragons. Let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III...even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon.

I wonder if there an earlier pact been Aegon I and Torrhen Stark and if this is what the Reed kids and Jaqen are invoking in their oath.  Was that pact broken by Aerys Targaryen?   

Beyond the Wall again, Coldhands has aspects of a green man but also as a faceless man when he binds Sam three times with an oath not to speak of Bran in exchange for the lives he has saved.  This is the kind of life for death exchange of the FM.

Also there is some significance to Jaqen placing his hand into the mouth of the weirwood when he takes his oath and I'm reminded of Othor forcing his hand into Jon's mouth.   

     

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 10/25/2020 at 9:06 AM, LynnS said:

So if the purpose of the KG is to protect the King; is it the purpose of the WWs to protect the greenseers?

The purpose of the Kingsguard is to protect the King or to do his bidding, even if that bidding may be less than honorable.  There is a psychological association with the term "shadow".  In Jungian terms your shadow is a part of your personality or subconscious that you try and disassociate with yourself.  Stannis deep down wants to kill Renly because Renly is standing in the way of his plans to become King.  Yet Kinslaying is considered quite the sin.  So Stannis' "shadow" does Stannis' dirty deed for him while Stannis' hands remain "clean".

If the Others are a white shadow, the question is who's shadow are they?  I think they were created from the weirnet.  A dark desire of the weirnet given form, and probably influenced by the greenseers who inhabit the weirnet.  Including possibly a young boy in the future, who enjoyed stories of White Walkers/Others and Knights of the Kingsguards.

 

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A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things...

Will made no sound as he climbed.  Behind him, he heard the soft metallic slither of the lordling's ringmail, the rustle of leaves, and muttered curses as reaching branches grabbed at his longsword and tugged on his splendid sable cloak...

The woods gave answer:  the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.  

The Others made no sound...

The Other slid forward on silent feet.  It its hand was a longsword like one that Will had ever seen.  No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade.  It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish shen seen edge-on.  There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely.  "Dance with me then."

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At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind.  When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

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Hodor knew Bran's favorite place, so he took him to the edge of the pool beneath the great spread of the heart tree, where Lord Eddard used to kneel and pray.  Ripples were running across the surface of the water when they arrived, making the reflection of the weirwood shimmer and dance.  There was no wind, though.  For an instant Bran was baffled.  

 

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The purpose of the Kingsguard is to protect the King or to do his bidding, even if that bidding may be less than honorable.  There is a psychological association with the term "shadow".  In Jungian terms your shadow is a part of your personality or subconscious that you try and disassociate with yourself.  Stannis deep down wants to kill Renly because Renly is standing in the way of his plans to become King.  Yet Kinslaying is considered quite the sin.  So Stannis' "shadow" does Stannis' dirty deed for him while Stannis' hands remain "clean".

If the Others are a white shadow, the question is who's shadow are they?  I think they were created from the weirnet.  A dark desire of the weirnet given form, and probably influenced by the greenseers who inhabit the weirnet.  Including possibly a young boy in the future, who enjoyed stories of White Walkers/Others and Knights of the Kingsguards.

I like this idea and it does make me think of Bran's words:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

I still lean towards the theory that the white walkers are shadows drawn from wildlings, but I do like the idea that there might be a faction of Children who are wroth and have sworn bloody vengeance.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I like this idea and it does make me think of Bran's words:

I still lean towards the theory that the white walkers are shadows drawn from wildlings, but I do like the idea that there might be a faction of Children who are wroth and have sworn bloody vengeance.

I don't think it's the Children.  They may be helping out, but I think it was the introduction of the humans to the weirnet that caused a dark impulse to form in this collective.  And it's this dark impulse that gives birth to the white walkers.

[Frey family reunion]

As an aside, the General forum has a thread about a Russian translation of one of Brienne's chapters that was apparently an early draft, that got substantially changed in the final edit.  In that initial edit we get this description of Lady Stoneheart:

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The woman lowered her hood and unwound the grey wool scarf from her face. Her hair was dry and brittle. Her skin was the color of sour milk with corpse spots. One cheek was rotten through, revealing the teeth inside the hole, but that was not the worst part. Her whole face, from eyes to jaw, was torn sharply by the claws of some beast. Black oil oozed from the unhealed wounds. She took up her throat again, with her fingers pinched a monstrous scar on it, and squeezed out some more sounds.

I think that this makes it clear that Lady Stoneheart is a fire wight (or revenant).  

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The woman lowered her hood and unwound the grey wool scarf from her face. Her hair was dry and brittle. Her skin was the color of sour milk with corpse spots. One cheek was rotten through, revealing the teeth inside the hole, but that was not the worst part. Her whole face, from eyes to jaw, was torn sharply by the claws of some beast. Black oil oozed from the unhealed wounds. She took up her throat again, with her fingers pinched a monstrous scar on it, and squeezed out some more sounds.

This is gross.  I wonder if Martin is saving this reveal for Jaimie in the next book  Seems too good to waste. .

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If the Others are a white shadow, the question is who's shadow are they?  I think they were created from the weirnet.  A dark desire of the weirnet given form, and probably influenced by the greenseers who inhabit the weirnet.  Including possibly a young boy in the future, who enjoyed stories of White Walkers/Others and Knights of the Kingsguards.

Yes, it's entirely possible.  Although I don't want to dismiss Craster's changelings and other souls of the dead.  Specifically the soul of ice and the heart of winter; the one who's name can't be spoken and whatever the frozen hell reserved for Starks happens to be.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind.  When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

The still waters suggests that Bran is seeing himself in the future and the tree-Bran is looking back at himself in the past. 

Osha also suggests that when the leaves are rustling, that gods might be trying to talk to you.  Can't forget the Mummer's Wedding with Bran in attendance as the laughing tree and speaks Theon's name. 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

The mists were so thick that only the nearest trees were visible; beyond them stood tall shadows and faint lights. Candles flickered beside the wandering path and back amongst the trees, pale fireflies floating in a warm grey soup. It felt like some strange underworld, some timeless place between the worlds, where the damned wandered mournfully for a time before finding their way down to whatever hell their sins had earned them. Are we all dead, then? Did Stannis come and kill us in our sleep? Is the battle yet to come, or has it been fought and lost?

Here and there a torch burned hungrily, casting its ruddy glow over the faces of the wedding guests. The way the mists threw back the shifting light made their features seem bestial, half-human, twisted. Lord Stout became a mastiff, old Lord Locke a vulture, Whoresbane Umber a gargoyle, Big Walder Frey a fox, Little Walder a red bull, lacking only a ring for his nose. Roose Bolton's own face was a pale grey mask, with two chips of dirty ice where his eyes should be.

Above their heads the trees were full of ravens, their feathers fluffed as they hunched on bare brown branches, staring down at the pageantry below. Maester Luwin's birds. Luwin was dead, and his maester's tower had been put to the torch, yet the ravens lingered. This is their home. Theon wondered what that would be like, to have a home.

Then the mists parted, like the curtain opening at a mummer show to reveal some new tableau. The heart tree appeared in front of them, its bony limbs spread wide. Fallen leaves lay about the wide white trunk in drifts of red and brown. The ravens were the thickest here, muttering to one another in the murderers' secret tongue. Ramsay Bolton stood beneath them, clad in high boots of soft grey leather and a black velvet doublet slashed with pink silk and glittering with garnet teardrops. A smile danced across his face. "Who comes?" His lips were moist, his neck red above his collar. "Who comes before the god?"

Theon answered. "Arya of House Stark comes here to be wed. A woman grown and flowered, trueborn and noble, she comes to beg the blessings of the gods. Who comes to claim her?"

"Me," said Ramsay. "Ramsay of House Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, heir to the Dreadfort. I claim her. Who gives her?"

"Theon of House Greyjoy, who was her father's ward." He turned to the bride. "Lady Arya, will you take this man?"

She raised her eyes to his. Brown eyes, not grey. Are all of them so blind? For a long moment she did not speak, but those eyes were begging. This is your chance, he thought. Tell them. Tell them now. Shout out your name before them all, tell them that you are not Arya Stark, let all the north hear how you were made to play this part. It would mean her death, of course, and his own as well, but Ramsay in his wroth might kill them quickly. The old gods of the north might grant them that small boon.

"I take this man," the bride said in a whisper.

All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

 This is the first part of the Mummer's Wedding and the chapter title refers to Bran.  It's also the second time a weirwood has a laughing face.  The tree is surrounded by ravens as Bran was travelling beyond the Wall.

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From a nearby oak a raven quorked, and Bran heard the sound of wings as another of the big black birds flapped down to land beside it. By day only half a dozen ravens stayed with them, flitting from tree to tree or riding on the antlers of the elk. The rest of the murder flew ahead or lingered behind. But when the sun sank low they would return, descending from the sky on night-black wings until every branch of every tree was thick with them for yards around. Some would fly to the ranger and mutter at him, and it seemed to Bran that he understood their quorks and squawks. They are his eyes and ears. They scout for him, and whisper to him of dangers ahead and behind. 

I don't think there is any question that Bran is present.

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After a moment of silent prayer, the man and woman rose again. Ramsay undid the cloak that Theon had slipped about his bride's shoulders moments before, the heavy white wool cloak bordered in grey fur, emblazoned with the direwolf of House Stark. In its place he fastened a pink cloak, spattered with red garnets like those upon his doublet. On its back was the flayed man of the Dreadfort done in stiff red leather, grim and grisly.

Quick as that, it was done. Weddings went more quickly in the north. It came of not having priests, Theon supposed, but whatever the reason it seemed to him a mercy. Ramsay Bolton scooped his wife up in his arms and strode through the mists with her. Lord Bolton and his Lady Walda followed, then the rest. The musicians began to play again, and the bard Abel began to sing "Two Hearts That Beat as One." Two of his women joined their voices to his own to make a sweet harmony.

 

Theon found himself wondering if he should say a prayer. Will the old gods hear me if I do? They were not his gods, had never been his gods. He was ironborn, a son of Pyke, his god was the Drowned God of the islands … but Winterfell was long leagues from the sea. It had been a lifetime since any god had heard him. He did not know who he was, or what he was, why he was still alive, why he had ever been born.

 

"Theon," a voice seemed to whisper.

 

His head snapped up. "Who said that?" All he could see were the trees and the fog that covered them. The voice had been as faint as rustling leaves, as cold as hate. A god's voice, or a ghost's. How many died the day that he took Winterfell? How many more the day he lost it? The day that Theon Greyjoy died, to be reborn as Reek. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with shriek.

 

 

Sorry that's a really long post.  At this point, given that Martin said he was experimenting with time; I can't see anyone but Howland Reed being the Knight of the Laughing Tree and the shield is Bran's device. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think it's the Children.  They may be helping out, but I think it was the introduction of the humans to the weirnet that caused a dark impulse to form in this collective.  And it's this dark impulse that gives birth to the white walkers.

I agree. GRRM was very firm in saying that the Walkers are not dead. Yet they are clearly individuals. The magic may well originate with the Children but I still hold that there's a human element at bottom and its also worth remembering that their tall, gaunt forms hint at a Stark connection, apart from the other stuff we've discussed.

What I'd suggest, is that if we're right, things start off with the Green Men.

They are individuals, first Children, and later men, with the skinchanging gene, sacrificed to the Wood and thus released as spirits ofthe air who can assume human form by creating a temporary body of moss and leaves, 

It really then doesn't require a radical shift in the bleak midwinter to create a body of ice and snow instead of the vanished leaves and mosses.

The question which obviously then arises is whether they are one and the same, differing only in that the white lot are north of the Wall and the green lot south of it. I have my doubts anent that as there are no reports of green men above the Wall, but on the other hand I can't help feel that the Wall might be significant in that there is a common or shared origin severed by it.

[Frey family reunion]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, it's entirely possible.  Although I don't want to dismiss Craster's changelings and other souls of the dead. 

I'm not dismissing it at all.  I think the souls of Craster's children were the spark of life necessary to create the White Walkers.  It's blood magic.  A life for a life.  But the Id that's responsible for the creation of these nasty White Walkers doesn't come from a newborn child.  It comes from the dark heart of the consciousness of the Weirnets.  The human consciousnesses that were introduced into it.

 

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The question which obviously then arises is whether they are one and the same, differing only in that the white lot are north of the Wall and the green lot south of it. I have my doubts anent that as there are no reports of green men above the Wall, but on the other hand I can't help feel that the Wall might be significant in that there is a common or shared origin severed by it.

I would love to get confirmation of what a Green Man is.  Personally I think Coldhands is definitely one.  The question remains have we seen any other Green Men (or women in the story).  Does a resurection by fire necessarily disqualify you as being a Green Man?

Turning to Beric, after his resurrection, he takes a Weirroot throne, and talks about his devotion to the Realm.  

During the torturing of the commonfolk, one of them reveals that Beric had crossed the God's Eye in a boat.  Could he have visited the Isle of Faces?  

And if Beric is one, could Lady Stoneheart be one as well?  The foreshadowing of Cat's drowning occurred when she looked into her reflection in Renly's green armor (the green armor with the antlered helm).  It's not a stretch to say that Renly's armor is a symbolic reflection of the Green Men.  Especially when that same armor is used to rally troops around a "king" who allegedly came back from the dead.

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Beside the entrance, the king's armor stood sentry; a suit of forest-green plate, its fittings chased with gold, the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers.  The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond.  The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought.  Can you drown in grief?

 

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I would love to get confirmation of what a Green Man is.  Personally I think Coldhands is definitely one.  The question remains have we seen any other Green Men (or women in the story).  Does a resurection by fire necessarily disqualify you as being a Green Man?

Turning to Beric, after his resurrection, he takes a Weirroot throne, and talks about his devotion to the Realm.  

During the torturing of the commonfolk, one of them reveals that Beric had crossed the God's Eye in a boat.  Could he have visited the Isle of Faces?  

And if Beric is one, could Lady Stoneheart be one as well?  The foreshadowing of Cat's drowning occurred when she looked into her reflection in Renly's green armor (the green armor with the antlered helm).  It's not a stretch to say that Renly's armor is a symbolic reflection of the Green Men.  Especially when that same armor is used to rally troops around a "king" who allegedly came back from the dead.

Yes the business of Beric sitting on weirwood throne and the GOHH telling Thoros that even here, wood is stronger than fire an will not see anything in his flames.  And yet he raises Beric once again after Sandor kills him in that place.  Permission granted?

Jojen also tells Bran that wood is stronger than fire.  Then there is Bloodraven and Bran breaking into Mel's vision.  I'm guessing that the fire wights are not green men but serve as instruments of the old gods regardless of how they are brought back to life.  The ability of Thoros to bring Beric back six times baffles even Thoros. 

Renley's Green Armor and Antlers seems to have it's origin in a tale of the Green King:

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Riverlands

The three branches of the Trident give the riverlands their name: the Red Fork, colored by the mud and silt that tumbles down from the western mountains; the Green Fork, whose mossy waters emerge from the swamps of the Neck; and the Blue Fork, named for the purity of its sparkling, spring-fed flow. Their wide waters are the roads by which goods pass through the riverlands, and it is not unknown to see lines of poleboats stretching a mile or more. There has never been a city in the riverlands, strange as that might seem (though large market towns are common), likely because of the fractious history of the region and a tendency for the kings of the past to refuse the charters that might have given some Saltpans or Lord Harroway's Town or Fairmarket leave to expand.

During the long centuries when the First Men reigned supreme in Westeros, countless petty kingdoms rose and fell in the riverlands. Their histories, entwined and embroidered with myth and song, are largely forgotten, save for the names of a few legendary kings and heroes whose deeds are recorded on weathered stones in runes whose meanings are even now disputed at the Citadel. Thus, whilst singers and storytellers may regale us with colorful tales of Artos the Strong, Florian the Fool, Nine-Finger Jack, Sharra the Witch Queen, and the Green King of the Gods Eye, the very existence of such personages must be questioned by the serious scholar.

 Renley's armor seems to be a reference to the green men, especially since it is spell-forged and gives him green eyes when he wears it..  So, yes, "it must be questioned by the serious scholar." 

 

 

 

[Melifeather]

I've gathered up some relevant text that pertains to the green men. They are a sacred order formed for a specific purpose.
 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Coming of First Men

Regardless, the children of the forest fought as fiercely as the First Men to defend their lives. Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact. Giving up all the lands of Westeros save for the deep forests, the children won from the First Men the promise that they would no longer cut down the weirwoods. All the weirwoods of the isle on which the Pact was forged were then carved with faces so that the gods could witness the Pact, and the order of green men was made afterward to tend to the weirwoods and protect the isle.

 

 

The green men live on the Isle of Faces with perhaps a small group of Children of the Forest.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"No one visits the Isle of Faces," objected Bran. "That's where the green men live.”

 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals

As with the First Men before them, the Andals proved bitter enemies to the remaining children. To their eyes, the children worshipped strange gods and had strange customs, and so the Andals drove them out of all the deep woods the Pact had once given them. Weakened and grown insular over the years, the children lacked whatever advantages they had once had over the First Men. And what the First Men could never succeed in doing—eradicating the children entirely—the Andals managed to achieve in short order. Some few children may have fled to the Neck, where there was safety amidst the bogs and crannogs, but if they did, no trace of them remains. It is possible that a few survived on the Isle of Faces, as some have written, under the protection of the green men, whom the Andals never succeeded in destroying. But again, no definitive proof has ever been found.

 

 

When Howland wanted to find the green men, he rowed to the Isle of Faces.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

“It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork."

 

 

The green men may have the power to answer prayers.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

 

 

The green men do have strange powers.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran shook his head. The day was growing old by then, and long shadows were creeping down the mountainsides to send black fingers through the pines. If the little crannogman could visit the Isle of Faces, maybe I could too. All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.

 

 

Old Nan described the green men as having antlers. Some nursery tales describe them as having green skin and garments and horned headdresses.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Coldhands," said Bran impatiently. "The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too."

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Coming of First Men

Whether the green men still survive on their isle is not clear although there is the occasional account of some foolhardy young riverlord taking a boat to the isle and catching sight of them before winds rise up or a flock of ravens drives him away. The nursery tales claiming that they are horned and have dark, green skin is a corruption of the likely truth, which is that the green men wore green garments and horned headdresses.

 

The Long Canal and Palace of Truth in Braavos are parallels to the Trident and the Isle of Faces, therefore the “green copper domes” of the Palace of Truth are parallels to the green men, implying that the green men may be trees themselves or at least resemble trees with “antlers” on their heads which could also be sprouts of small twigs or branches shooting up from their “domes” (heads).

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A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

The Long Canal took Brusco's boat beneath the green copper domes of the Palace of Truth and the tall square towers of the Prestayns and Antaryons before passing under the immense grey arches of the sweetwater river to the district known as Silty Town, where the buildings were smaller and less grand. Later in the day the canal would be choked with serpent boats and barges, but in the predawn darkness they had the waterway almost to themselves. Brusco liked to reach the fishmarket just as the Titan roared to herald the coming of the sun. The sound would boom across the lagoon, faint with distance but still loud enough to wake the sleeping city.

 

 

[Melifeather]

The idea that mummers and their plays are reenactments of historical battles actually comes from Sam:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

But not looking at the water was even worse, Sam realized in the cramped cabin beneath the sterncastle that the passengers were sharing. He tried to take his mind off the roiling in his stomach by talking with Gilly as she nursed her son. "This ship will take us as far as Braavos," he said. "We'll find another ship to carry us to Oldtown. I read a book about Braavos when I was small. The whole city is built in a lagoon on a hundred little islands, and they have a titan there, a stone man hundreds of feet high. They have boats instead of horses, and their mummers play out written stories instead of just making up the usual stupid farces. The food is very good too, especially the fish. They have all kinds of clams and eels and oysters, fresh from their lagoon. We ought to have a few days between ships. If we do, we can go and see a mummer show, and have some oysters."

 

Ramsay's marriage to fArya is likened to a play, but not just any play, but one that reveals some new tableau. What is the definition of "tableau"? A tableau is a group of models or motionless figures representing a scene from a story or from history; a tableau vivant. The more scientific definition of tableau is a visual analytics platform transforming the way we use data to solve problems—empowering people and organizations to make the most of their data. It is up to the reader to analyze the data.

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A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

Then the mists parted, like the curtain opening at a mummer show to reveal some new tableau. The heart tree appeared in front of them, its bony limbs spread wide. Fallen leaves lay about the wide white trunk in drifts of red and brown. The ravens were the thickest here, muttering to one another in the murderers' secret tongue. Ramsay Bolton stood beneath them, clad in high boots of soft grey leather and a black velvet doublet slashed with pink silk and glittering with garnet teardrops. A smile danced across his face. "Who comes?" His lips were moist, his neck red above his collar. "Who comes before the god?”

The line about the wedding being a revealing tableau occurs in chapter 37 - right in the middle of A Dance with Dragons. Up until this point Bran has played a part in changing the future and it has cost him and House Stark severely, but this wedding might be a significant change of fortunes. Perhaps this is why Bran laughed? 

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All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

I think Bran is delighted about something and I think its because he's finally figured out how to change the future without harming his remaining family. Add to that Howland's prayer to find a way to "win" and his shield reflecting his delight with the Laughing Tree shield.

[Melifeather]

I have suggested upthread (or was it the previous Heresy) that Bran's fall enabled Arya to travel with her father to Kings Landing in Bran's place. If my theory is correct then Arya's meeting with Beric Dondarrion is a parallel to Bran's meeting with Bloodraven.