Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e

[alienarea]

23 hours ago, LynnS said:

  As far as Mance goes, when would he have had the opportunity?

How about this: Ned asks Howland  Reed to hide Lyanna. They move to either Greywater Watch, Isle of Faces, ... Mance is still with the Nightwatch, maybe a recruiter or at least on a recruiting journey. He could have offered to escort her to Winterfell.

 

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, alienarea said:

How about this: Ned asks Howland  Reed to hide Lyanna. They move to either Greywater Watch, Isle of Faces, ... Mance is still with the Nightwatch, maybe a recruiter or at least on a recruiting journey. He could have offered to escort her to Winterfell.

 

I'm thinking that Ned and Howland were escorting Lyanna to Brandon's wedding when he gets wind of the plot against the Starks and she is hidden on the Isle of Faces with Howland. This might have something to do with Jon belonging to the old gods if Ghost is anything to go by. Ned goes back to Robert and Jon Arryn.

My second choice for a hiding place is the Quiet Isle.  I think she dies there in the cave with a door and Ned ships Jon off to Starfall with a nursemaid called Wylla.  Who stays there when Ned collects Jon.  The Quiet Isle is a place where everyone takes a vow of silence and also where Lyanna's body could be prepared by the Silent Sisters.  Elder Brother has already said that noble ladies have come there for help in the past but they did not have a healer who was skilled at the time.

So perhaps she was moved from the Isle of Faces to the Quiet Isle closer to her delivery. 

[Black Crow]

Actually, after all these years of discussion, I'm inclined to go with the simple solution; that R+L=J, but...

Notwithstanding the evangelism in another place, I don't think it matters a damn. He will never sit on the Iron Throne. Jon is the son of Lyanna and a son of Winterfell. He will become King of Winter and must be slain [perhaps by Rickon] in order to bring the return of Spring. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Actually, after all these years of discussion, I'm inclined to go with the simple solution; that R+L=J, but...

You mean let the wookie win?  That is the simplest solution if it doesn't matter a hoot.

It's a story that has to be cobbled out of a few scraps of information. In my story, the simplest solution is that the Butler did it, Ned's serving man.

ETA:  In the bittersweet end of things; I think it will be Arya who will have to dispatch Jon Snow before she sits down with Needle in her hands and freezes in the ice.  The last daughter for Brienne to find.

If Rickon survives, he may well go back to Skagos or join the green men having played a part in the war to come controlling a warg army of wolves.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

In the bittersweet end of things; I think it will be Arya who will have to dispatch Jon Snow

I think that I would laugh like the proverbial drain

After all, in the garbled mess that is the mummers version it is Arya who slays the Nights King/King of Winter[?]

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that I would laugh like the proverbial drain

After all, in the garbled mess that is the mummers version it is Arya who slays the Nights King/King of Winter[?]

Really?  I didn't know that.  I didn't watch the whole thing to the end.  It's Jon who gives Arya the means for his end and jokes about her being found in the spring, frozen in the ice clutching needle.  It's the FM who will take everything from her. 

Well as things go,  I will be watching the Mummer thing again with my niece who has never read the books or seen the show.  I haven't said a thing about Ned's death or the red wedding.  

[LynnS]

@MissM  This is the passage that I'm referencing.  Possibly foreshadowing:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya I

Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window. "The show is done," he said. He bent to scratch Ghost behind the ears. The white wolf rose and rubbed against him. "You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Arya may be Jon's Dark Angel: 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

 

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

In the bittersweet end of things; I think it will be Arya who will have to dispatch Jon Snow before she sits down with Needle in her hands and freezes in the ice. 

When reading your last posts I wondered whether Jon being revived leads to him becoming the 'big bad' and Arya having to dispatch him.

He is a son of Winterfell, has a desire to rule it, and the Starks are guarded with iron swords against rising from the dead for a reason. Plus, Stannis offering him Winterfell. The seeds are sown.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

When reading your last posts I wondered whether Jon being revived leads to him becoming the 'big bad' and Arya having to dispatch him.

He is a son of Winterfell, has a desire to rule it, and the Starks are guarded with iron swords against rising from the dead for a reason. Plus, Stannis offering him Winterfell. The seeds are sown.

We've been told he will go down a dark path and I don't think that means just the crypts.  I am expecting him to become the King of Winter and ride with the wild hunt.

[alienarea]

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

We've been told he will go down a dark path and I don't think that means just the crypts.  I am expecting him to become the King of Winter and ride with the wild hunt.

... and in the end he will bring balance to the force / seasons / magic.

 

[Black Crow]

well I stand by my post #263 above 

[Back in Black-Snow]

I dare to say we have no fuckin' idea what we have coming.

Just saying...

[alienarea]

17 hours ago, Black Crow said:

well I stand by my post #263 above 

As in Rhaegar Targaryen + Lynesse Hightower = Jaqen H'ghar ?

[Black Crow]

On 11/28/2020 at 6:01 PM, Travis said:

I dare to say we have no fuckin' idea what we have coming.

Just saying...

Bo-o-o-ring if we did know...

The basic premise of this thread is that a writer of GRRM's stature is promising us more than a simple "return of the King" scenario and that its possible to figure out the direction by identifying his sources of inspiration and looking at his own earlier work. It may not TELL us the answers, but it can give us some pretty good clues as to where he is [or isn't] going. 

 

 

[Black Crow]

On 11/29/2020 at 8:34 AM, alienarea said:

As in Rhaegar Targaryen + Lynesse Hightower = Jaqen H'ghar ?

I'm confident that GRRM has a wicked sense of humour...

[Frey family reunion]

On 11/27/2020 at 3:29 AM, Black Crow said:

Actually, after all these years of discussion, I'm inclined to go with the simple solution; that R+L=J, but...

Notwithstanding the evangelism in another place, I don't think it matters a damn. He will never sit on the Iron Throne. Jon is the son of Lyanna and a son of Winterfell. He will become King of Winter and must be slain [perhaps by Rickon] in order to bring the return of Spring. 

Personally I'm down to two options.  Either R + L = J, and I agree with you it will have nothing to do with Jon's claim to an Iron Throne; or

Lyanna's disappearance happened shortly after a conception with Brandon.  Perhaps there is some compulsion dealing with Warg blood or recessive warg blood (which may also explain Jaime and Cersei's self-destructive relationship).  

Rhaegar is following prophecy (we know he is at least to an extent), prophecy which may extend to the Asshai prophecies involving waking the stone dragon.  I think what Rhaegar and company set out to do when they left King's Landing was to collect King's blood. Basically collecting the fruits from the seeds they planted at Harrenhal.  Think of the Harrenhal tourney as a fertility ritual.  (It's basically a May day ritual set in a false spring).  Ashara's pregnancy was probably an encouraged event during this tourney, another attempt to harvest King's blood.  Perhaps Brandon's realization of the taboo feelings he had for Lyanna was also wakened when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.

Jon is the Winter King through the union of Stark blood from both his mother's side and his father's side.

[Black Crow]

25 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Jon is the Winter King through the union of Stark blood from both his mother's side and his father's side.

Certainly can't be ruled out, after all Lyanna was impregnated by somebody

I'm inclined to think, though, that its more complicated. First we have the story of Bael the Bard which definitely foreshadows the present set-up, but while while Bael's son by the Lord Stark's daughter became Lord of Winterfell, he didn't become King of Winter, and for that I think we need to look to the wolves.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Certainly can't be ruled out, after all Lyanna was impregnated by somebody

Howland is still at the top of my list if Ned and Howland are responsible for hiding her.  Especially if Howland took her to the Isle of Faces and Jon my have been concieved there.  If Ibbinsin of Ibben is correct that Howland is a dragonfly in the Reeds; then it might explain the last line of Meera and Jojen's oath:  we swear it by ice and fire.  They could be talking about their bloodline.

After Brandon and Rickard are killed. Lyanna is essentially in Ned's hand and he decides to whom he gives her hand:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

It makes more sense to me that Lyanna fell in love with Howland at the tourney and that Rhaegar fell in love with Ashera.  If Howland had taken Lyanna's hand from his; there could be a Bael the Bard story here as well.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Lyanna was impregnated by somebody

That does not need to be the case. Theon saw a spattered gown. Giving birth is messy business, but you don't spatter the front of your clothes....I think she was stabbed in the gut with a sword. And I think Ned really is Jon's father.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm confident that GRRM has a wicked sense of humour...

If Wolfmaid was here, she'd say the R in RLJ stood for Robert.  She'd say if Robert had 16 bastards, where are the other 9. Is is because they don't have black hair and blue eyes?