Melifeather Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 The definition of "slitted" for cats is the shape of the pupil. If a person had slitted eyes, then I would think the appearance would be squinted nearly closed. The Children of the Forest do have slitted eyes like a cat. Wolves are NOT known to have slitted eyes. Their pupils are round like a dog, so @LynnS you are right to be suspicious why they are described as such, but Tucu is also correct. Since wolf pupils are not slitted, they are squinting their eyelids due to an emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Melifeather said: The definition of "slitted" for cats is the shape of the pupil. If a person had slitted eyes, then I would think the appearance would be squinted nearly closed. The Children of the Forest do have slitted eyes like a cat. Wolves are NOT known to have slitted eyes. Their pupils are round like a dog, so @LynnS you are right to be suspicious why they are described as such, but Tucu is also correct. Since wolf pupils are not slitted, they are squinting their eyelids due to an emotion. The question for me is whether Bran is sensing another presence; whether he is seeing with his third eye. Whether or not he is being watched and why he has a sense of the cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 9 hours ago, LynnS said: The question for me is whether Bran is sensing another presence; whether he is seeing with his third eye. Whether or not he is being watched and why he has a sense of the cold. Well Summer seemed to be worried about Bran's climb that day, and I can see how future Bran may have planned to go back in time to make himself fall, but at the same time still worry about pain and knowing he was giving up the use of his legs. Those feelings could be shared with Summer and that may have caused the wolf's emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShimShim Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 On 12/21/2020 at 9:21 PM, alienarea said: In (my) theory, the Faceless Men should be Team Ice, wanting to end life. I don't know, I think the FM would find the idea of wights/zombies, which is what Team Ice is making to be a perverse insult to the MFG and the sanctity of Death. I think they are probably against both the Others or whatever leads them if they have a leader, the the returning of dragons given their history with Valyria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 7 hours ago, ShimShim said: I don't know, I think the FM would find the idea of wights/zombies, which is what Team Ice is making to be a perverse insult to the MFG and the sanctity of Death. I think they are probably against both the Others or whatever leads them if they have a leader, the the returning of dragons given their history with Valyria. I'm inclined to agree. On the one hand death is offered as a gift by the FM. on the other Master Benero is promising that the dead will be raised to fight for Fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 On 1/5/2021 at 4:14 AM, Black Crow said: I'm inclined to agree. On the one hand death is offered as a gift by the FM. on the other Master Benero is promising that the dead will be raised to fight for Fire And the Faceless Men also make the dead "live" again by donning the Faces that contain impressions of their former owners. To go further afield I think that the Undying represent yet another order of magic's wight type and that Patchface is that of either the Deep Ones or the merlings if they exist as an independent force (or at all). It is also worth considering that the Hound might be a revenant of the Seven. Not sure who should get credit for his brother. Ice animates and preserves, fire consumes and purifies, the waters of the Black Moon Pool transform and obscure, the Heart of the Undying corrupts and endures, the Deep Ones distort and derange, and the Seven restore and renew? Hope this doesn't wander too far astray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 Going back to eyes, a minor little incident the other day set me to thinking anent eye colours We're told about greenseers having red or green eyes, while the direwolves variously have red eyes, green eyes or golden eyes. Our Mel also has red eyes. We assume that what's being talked about are the irises, but... The blue-eyed lot are different. Although Jafer's corpse is noted to have blue eyes which he didn't have when living, but thereafter all the way through to the Varamyr chapter, its a blue light in the eye. Now back to the incident. I have two dogs, both with the usual brown irises and large pupils. The irises aren't particularly noticable, but that does show up is the way light is reflected in the large pupils - usually blue or green. Now the other day, a medical emergency meant I had to look after a friend's dog as well - and she [the dog] has startlingly red eyes. Is it the pupils rather than the irises which GRRM is writing about. We know he is when he talks about the blue-eyed lot, so does it make sense that he is also talking about pupils of the direwolves' eyes, greenseers' eyes and Mel's eyes Roose Bolton's eyes like dirty chips of ice might also apply to his pupils rather than his irises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 29 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Going back to eyes, a minor little incident the other day set me to thinking anent eye colours We're told about greenseers having red or green eyes, while the direwolves variously have red eyes, green eyes or golden eyes. Our Mel also has red eyes. We assume that what's being talked about are the irises, but... The blue-eyed lot are different. Although Jafer's corpse is noted to have blue eyes which he didn't have when living, but thereafter all the way through to the Varamyr chapter, its a blue light in the eye. Now back to the incident. I have two dogs, both with the usual brown irises and large pupils. The irises aren't particularly noticable, but that does show up is the way light is reflected in the large pupils - usually blue or green. Now the other day, a medical emergency meant I had to look after a friend's dog as well - and she [the dog] has startlingly red eyes. Is it the pupils rather than the irises which GRRM is writing about. We know he is when he talks about the blue-eyed lot, so does it make sense that he is also talking about pupils of the direwolves' eyes, greenseers' eyes and Mel's eyes Roose Bolton's eyes like dirty chips of ice might also apply to his pupils rather than his irises. Hmmm... Euron's blue smiling eye is a description of the iris; while his crow's eye is a description of the pupil, or so I believe. Thistle is missing her eyes and Varamyr sees the blue flame instead. I can see third also being the case for Mel. Shaggy Dog's eyes are described as green fire. I take this to mean the eye and the pupil but on a psychic level. Same with eyes like gold coins and gold as the sun and slitted eyes. I don't recall if Jon describes Ghost's eyes as red fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 59 minutes ago, LynnS said: Hmmm... Euron's blue smiling eye is a description of the iris; while his crow's eye is a description of the pupil, or so I believe. Thistle is missing her eyes and Varamyr sees the blue flame instead. I can see third also being the case for Mel. Shaggy Dog's eyes are described as green fire. I take this to mean the eye and the pupil but on a psychic level. Same with eyes like gold coins and gold as the sun and slitted eyes. I don't recall if Jon describes Ghost's eyes as red fire. Yes, but from Thistle's blue flame onwards we're talking about light, whether its reflected or shining from within, rather than the iris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 7 hours ago, LynnS said: Hmmm... Euron's blue smiling eye is a description of the iris; while his crow's eye is a description of the pupil, or so I believe. Thistle is missing her eyes and Varamyr sees the blue flame instead. I can see third also being the case for Mel. Shaggy Dog's eyes are described as green fire. I take this to mean the eye and the pupil but on a psychic level. Same with eyes like gold coins and gold as the sun and slitted eyes. I don't recall if Jon describes Ghost's eyes as red fire. Did Thistle manage to scratch her eyes out? I'm thinking of Symeon Star-Eyes who had missing eyeballs and inserted star sapphires in the sockets. It made me think he was trying to have the appearance of white walker eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share Posted January 13, 2021 15 hours ago, Melifeather said: Did Thistle manage to scratch her eyes out? I'm thinking of Symeon Star-Eyes who had missing eyeballs and inserted star sapphires in the sockets. It made me think he was trying to have the appearance of white walker eyes. As I recall, yes she did. The point about this is that the iris is "passive", but while the pupil normally appears black, it is in fact a lens which in certain circumstances reflects and amplifies light - and always the same colour irrespective of external light sources. Therefore if we move away from the assumption that when GRRM is writing of coloured eyes he's talking about the iris, but instead interpret it as being about the pupil, then the lens is reflecting some kind of possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 21 hours ago, Melifeather said: Did Thistle manage to scratch her eyes out? I'm thinking of Symeon Star-Eyes who had missing eyeballs and inserted star sapphires in the sockets. It made me think he was trying to have the appearance of white walker eyes. Or someone created the White Walkers with the tale of Symeon Star-Eyes in the back of their mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 On 1/13/2021 at 4:24 PM, Frey family reunion said: Or someone created the White Walkers with the tale of Symeon Star-Eyes in the back of their mind... I like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 On 1/13/2021 at 4:24 PM, Frey family reunion said: Or someone created the White Walkers with the tale of Symeon Star-Eyes in the back of their mind... I have lately been hunting for hints that the WW and wights are emergent properties and behaviour of a complex and self organizing system that links the weirwoods, magical cold wind and souls. GRRM uses a lot of words that seem to point towards complex system theory and its examples: "emerge", "swarming", "flocking", "icy tendrils", "icy fingers", "creeping", "flooding"; he also personifies several fractal structures like trees, snowflakes and rivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 6 hours ago, Tucu said: I have lately been hunting for hints that the WW and wights are emergent properties and behaviour of a complex and self organizing system that links the weirwoods, magical cold wind and souls. GRRM uses a lot of words that seem to point towards complex system theory and its examples: "emerge", "swarming", "flocking", "icy tendrils", "icy fingers", "creeping", "flooding"; he also personifies several fractal structures like trees, snowflakes and rivers. Hi Tucu, hope you are well. Could you elaborate on this concept for me, it sounds very interesting but I'm not sure I 100% follow your thinking. Sorry to be slow on the uptake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 The word “fractal” makes me think of a simulated reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Hi Tucu, hope you are well. Could you elaborate on this concept for me, it sounds very interesting but I'm not sure I 100% follow your thinking. Sorry to be slow on the uptake. Hi Wizz. Let's see if I can explain the patterns I am seeing. Maybe I should start from the conclusion: GRRM is giving us hints that the wights and the WW are not beings that are designed or created by someone, but they come into existence on their own given the right environmental conditions. For the wights some mix of bodies, the magical cold and maybe the souls stored in the woods. For the WWs it would bea mix of the cold, white mist and souls again. The hints I see are the use of terms related to self-organizing complex systems. The first one is from the AGOT prologue when the first WW "emerge" from the wood: Quote A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took. Then rest of the WWs also "emerge": Quote They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … In Samwell I ASOS GRRM also uses the word "emerge" when the WW appears: Quote A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. So we have a creature made of ice emerging from the dark of the wood, the shadows and/or the darkness. Emergence is a concept in philosophy and system theory. From Wikipedia: Quote In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence occurs when an entity is observed to have properties its parts do not have on their own, properties or behaviors which emerge only when the parts interact in a wider whole. Emergence plays a central role in theories of integrative levels and of complex systems. For instance, the phenomenon of life as studied in biology is an emergent property of chemistry, and psychological phenomena emerge from the neurobiological phenomena of living things Ice crystal formation is a classic example of emergence. For example check this picture of dendrites in a snowflake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrite_(crystal)#/media/File:Dendrite.jpg From there we can start pulling a lot of threads by looking for keywords related to emergence in self-organizing systems. For example the word dentrite (as in the snowflake) comes from the greek word for tree and is also used for the nervous system cells in brains. GRRM personifies the trees all over the books: Quote The trees hate us all, deep in their wooden hearts. ... These trees will kill us if they can The formation of leaves, branches and roots are also classic examples of emergence. And on ASOIAF the trees "remember" linking back to brains and dendrites. Another example of emergence is swarming. In the battle in the fist GRRM describe the wights as swarms: Quote The rider to his right came crashing down in a tangle of steel and leather and screaming horseflesh, and then the wights were swarming over him and the wedge was closing up. Quote It will not be enough, Sam thought. Craster's sloping palisades of mud and melting snow would hardly slow the wights, who'd climbed the much steeper slopes of the Fist to swarm over the ringwall Then Coldhands' ravens are also described as swarms when they attack the wights: Quote The starlight itself seemed to stir, and all around them the trees groaned and creaked. Sam Tarly turned the color of curdled milk, and his eyes went wide as plates. Ravens! They were in the weirwood, hundreds of them, thousands, perched on the bone-white branches, peering between the leaves. He saw their beaks open as they screamed, saw them spread their black wings. Shrieking, flapping, they descended on the wights in angry clouds. They swarmed round Chett's face and pecked at his blue eyes, they covered the Sisterman like flies, they plucked gobbets from inside Hake's shattered head. There were so many that when Sam looked up, he could not see the moon. One more example of emergence: creeping. In science it can describe two emergent behaviours: plants growing but also glacial movement and deformation. In the books it is used for the cold, the darkness, the shadows, the Wall and the trees (among others): Quote Tell them, Sam . . . tell them how it is upon the Wall . . . the wights and the white walkers, the creeping cold Quote Darkness was falling across the secret city, creeping through the alleys and down the canals Quote Outside, Jon looked up at the Wall shining in the sun, the melting ice creeping down its side in a hundred thin fingers. Quote Ghost was not like to be alone down there, he thought. Anything could be moving under that sea, creeping toward the ringfort through the dark of the wood, concealed beneath those trees. Anything. How would they ever know? He stood there for a long time, until the sun vanished behind the saw-toothed mountains and darkness began to creep through the forest. Quote The wood should never have been allowed to creep so close There are a lot more references to keywords related to emergence and complex systems but this post already got too long. Hopefully I am making some sense :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Tucu said: There are a lot more references to keywords related to emergence and complex systems but this post already got too long. Hopefully I am making some sense :-) This is fascinating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 12 hours ago, Tucu said: Maybe I should start from the conclusion: GRRM is giving us hints that the wights and the WW are not beings that are designed or created by someone, but they come into existence on their own given the right environmental conditions. For the wights some mix of bodies, the magical cold and maybe the souls stored in the woods. For the WWs it would be a mix of the cold, white mist and souls again. So, in short. are you suggesting that the Walkers, the Wights and other "phenomena" may not be players or pieces in the game, but rather unintended [or reckless] consequences of upsetting the natural order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 16 hours ago, Tucu said: There are a lot more references to keywords related to emergence and complex systems but this post already got too long. Hopefully I am making some sense :-) Quote "Snow in the riverlands. If it was snowing here, it could well be snowing on Lannisport as well, and on King's Landing. Winter is marching south, and half our granaries are empty..." AFfC The crystallization of hoarfrost and individual snowflakes seems emergent as well. I like this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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