Jump to content

Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

On 11/30/2020 at 8:38 PM, LynnS said:

If Wolfmaid was here, she'd say the R in RLJ stood for Robert.  She'd say if Robert had 16 bastards, where are the other 9. Is is because they don't have black hair and blue eyes?

He lost track whom he fucked and so did GRRM ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

I guessed but wasn't sure. Where was Robert roaming when he wasn't in KL? 

probably following real mediaeval practice by constantly touring the country, showing himself to his loyal subjects, intimidating the potentially disloyal, and making sure somebody else picked up the catering bill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello all, used to post 'back in the day' as it were, thought i would ask you Heretics what you think on some tidbits i have read in the 'Fire and Blood' book, as it contains some info about the wall and the Starks. I guess you all have probably talked this over but i had to see what Heretics think about it. This is the only thread i have kept taps on since i created a profile in 2012.

The first interesting piece of info comes from Queen Alysanne's visit to the North here is the quote

Quote

The men of the Night's Watch were as thunderstruck by the queen's dragon as the people of White Harbor had been, though the Queen herself noted that Silverwing "does not like this wall". Though it was Summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the Dragon hiss and snap. " Thrice i flew Sivlverwing high above Castle Black, and thrice i tried taking her north beyond the Wall" Alysanne wrote to Jaehaerys, "but every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where i wished to go. I laughed about it when I came down again, so the black brothers would not realise anything was amiss, but it troubled me then and it troubles me still"

Queen Alysanne also has a feeling about the nightfort , where the original portal between realms (according to Heresy lore)

Quote

The Nightfort itself she found grim and sinister "It is so huge the men seemed dwarfed by it , like mice in a ruined hall" she told Jaehaerys, "and there is a darkness there...a taste in the air...I was so glad to leave that place"

It is Queen Alysanne who suggests the brothers abandon the Nightfort, which seems the orignal fort , maybe even before the wall was raised and paid for Deep Lake to be built and they named Snowgate Queens gate in her honour. Does Alysanne help the brothers break one of their vows to stay at the portal? A vow they may have forgotton? Seems the Targaryens didn't like the wall and could 'feel' the wall. I know that R+L=J is accepted as canon but Jon doesn't seem to feel anything from the wall the time he arrives. He remarks on its look but never is wary of it in a magical sense. Could this be a pointer than Jon isn't R's son?

ps. Sorry to derail the OP

pps. Hail Black Crow for keeping the thread going all this time and Hail Alienarea who was posting on this thread back in the day too.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Peach Fuzz said:

Hello all, used to post 'back in the day' as it were, thought i would ask you Heretics what you think on some tidbits i have read in the 'Fire and Blood' book, as it contains some info about the wall and the Starks. I guess you all have probably talked this over but i had to see what Heretics think about it. This is the only thread i have kept taps on since i created a profile in 2012.

The first interesting piece of info comes from Queen Alysanne's visit to the North here is the quote

Queen Alysanne also has a feeling about the nightfort , where the original portal between realms (according to Heresy lore)

It is Queen Alysanne who suggests the brothers abandon the Nightfort, which seems the orignal fort , maybe even before the wall was raised and paid for Deep Lake to be built and they named Snowgate Queens gate in her honour. Does Alysanne help the brothers break one of their vows to stay at the portal? A vow they may have forgotton? Seems the Targaryens didn't like the wall and could 'feel' the wall. I know that R+L=J is accepted as canon but Jon doesn't seem to feel anything from the wall the time he arrives. He remarks on its look but never is wary of it in a magical sense. Could this be a pointer than Jon isn't R's son?

p

 

A blast from the past... matured into a decent peach brandy?

The reluctance of the scaly beastie to cross the magical barrier of the Wall has been noted before, though perhaps not in such detail, but the remarks on the NightFort are rather more interesting. In the main text its evacuation is represented as a simple economic decision, but the passage quoted certainly suggests a more urgent reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Peach Fuzz said:

Hello all, used to post 'back in the day' as it were, thought i would ask you Heretics what you think on some tidbits i have read in the 'Fire and Blood' book, as it contains some info about the wall and the Starks. I guess you all have probably talked this over but i had to see what Heretics think about it. This is the only thread i have kept taps on since i created a profile in 2012.

The first interesting piece of info comes from Queen Alysanne's visit to the North here is the quote

Queen Alysanne also has a feeling about the nightfort , where the original portal between realms (according to Heresy lore)

It is Queen Alysanne who suggests the brothers abandon the Nightfort, which seems the orignal fort , maybe even before the wall was raised and paid for Deep Lake to be built and they named Snowgate Queens gate in her honour. Does Alysanne help the brothers break one of their vows to stay at the portal? A vow they may have forgotton? Seems the Targaryens didn't like the wall and could 'feel' the wall. I know that R+L=J is accepted as canon but Jon doesn't seem to feel anything from the wall the time he arrives. He remarks on its look but never is wary of it in a magical sense. Could this be a pointer than Jon isn't R's son?

ps. Sorry to derail the OP

pps. Hail Black Crow for keeping the thread going all this time and Hail Alienarea who was posting on this thread back in the day too.

 

Hello Peach Fuzz.  I've wondered about the dragon's refusal to do what her rider wants her to do.  I'm not sure this has anything to do with the wards in the Wall.  I don't think dragon riders are skinchanging dragons when they ride them.  I think dragon and rider have a different kind of bond where the dragon knows what it's rider wants and the rider has some abilities to sense what the dragon senses.

Dragons are magical creatures, so it may be that they can see beyond the veil and perceive the things that humans would not normally see. The dragon reacts to the cold winds striking it and reacts by hissing.  So I don't think this has anything to do with the Wall and surely the cold does not affect a dragon anymore than it affects Melisandre..  

We have discussed how spirits or disembodied souls travel on the wind.  To me it feels more like the dragon is being struck by something and it may be that the dragon can perceive the disembodied souls that are prevented from crossing the Wall because of it's wards.

Queen Alysanne may be more tuned into the existence of the Black Gate because of her dragon.  Something that is old and powerful and cold.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

probably following real mediaeval practice by constantly touring the country, showing himself to his loyal subjects, intimidating the potentially disloyal, and making sure somebody else picked up the catering bill

He wasn't in Dorne I would guess.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Come on heretics.

Do you really want me to create another crackpot theory before you post here again?


Ok. Not sure I posted this before. I think there is a connection between the stone men and the army of the dead and the book Roose burned and his leeching and the leeches Melisandre burns and king's blood. If the Bolton's are related to the Starks, and the houses must have intermarried over time like the other ;) Northern houses, Roose has a drop or two of king's blood (I believe all things king's blood refer to King in the North, i.e. House Stark). So what is Roose with his special eye-color doing with his leeched blood? Creating White Walkers, voluntarily or involuntarily?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, alienarea said:

Come on heretics.

Do you really want me to create another crackpot theory before you post here again?


Ok. Not sure I posted this before. I think there is a connection between the stone men and the army of the dead and the book Roose burned and his leeching and the leeches Melisandre burns and king's blood. If the Bolton's are related to the Starks, and the houses must have intermarried over time like the other ;) Northern houses, Roose has a drop or two of king's blood (I believe all things king's blood refer to King in the North, i.e. House Stark). So what is Roose with his special eye-color doing with his leeched blood? Creating White Walkers, voluntarily or involuntarily?

 

I  don't think that cracked pots are required here. Whatever the relationship between the Starks and the Bolton's I think that they go back and have been rivals long enough to know where the bodies are buried. More particularly despite the tales of ancient rivalry Roose Bolton started off as a loyal supporter of Lord Eddard Stark - until Lord Eddard lost his head and Roose realised that he had the opportunity to make sure there was no Stark in Winterfell.

What's more, he knows the old secrets, which must inevitably include the blue-eyed lot

Switch to the book. It might - or might not - contain those secrets, but burning it suggests something else. Ii it was say a dirty secret about the Starks, then he wants to keep that as insurance; if its a spell to conjure the magic snowmen then again it could come in handy one of these days. Destroying it suggests it contains something dangerous to him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/11/2020 at 4:00 PM, alienarea said:

Come on heretics.

Do you really want me to create another crackpot theory before you post here again?


Ok. Not sure I posted this before. I think there is a connection between the stone men and the army of the dead and the book Roose burned and his leeching and the leeches Melisandre burns and king's blood. If the Bolton's are related to the Starks, and the houses must have intermarried over time like the other ;) Northern houses, Roose has a drop or two of king's blood (I believe all things king's blood refer to King in the North, i.e. House Stark). So what is Roose with his special eye-color doing with his leeched blood? Creating White Walkers, voluntarily or involuntarily?

 

Roose leeches himself, because he believes they suck away his "bad blood", which he associates with anger.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III

"Tell him … tell him to be afraid?" Reek felt ill at the very thought of it. "M'lord, I … if I did that, he'd …"

"I know." Lord Bolton sighed. "His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leeches suck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though … his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear."

 

Why are the Boltons filled with anger and pain?

Lady Barbary says the leeching leaves Roose emotionless.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

Her last word was a lash, but Theon dared not answer back in kind. Any insolence would cost him skin. "If my lady believes Lord Manderly wants to betray us, Lord Bolton is the one to tell."

"You think Roose does not know? Silly boy. Watch him. Watch how he watches Manderly. No dish so much as touches Roose's lips until he sees Lord Wyman eat of it first. No cup of wine is sipped until he sees Manderly drink of the same cask. I think he would be pleased if the fat man attempted some betrayal. It would amuse him. Roose has no feelings, you see. Those leeches that he loves so well sucked all the passions out of him years ago. He does not love, he does not hate, he does not grieve. This is a game to him, mildly diverting. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with men. You and me, these Freys, Lord Manderly, his plump new wife, even his bastard, we are but his playthings." A serving man was passing by. Lady Dustin held out her wine cup and let him fill it, then gestured for him to do the same for Theon. "Truth be told," she said, "Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North? Tywin Lannister is dead, the Kingslayer is maimed, the Imp is fled. The Lannisters are a spent force, and you were kind enough to rid him of the Starks. Old Walder Frey will not object to his fat little Walda becoming a queen. White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle … but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?"

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bit of a sidebar here.  I watched the scifi series Babylon 5 for the first and so many of the same themes in B5 pop-up in ASOIAF;  I wondered if Martin had been a fan of the show.  It debuted in 1993 and ran for 5 seasons.  

Quote

At the risk of starting another "feud," let me say that I was a huge fan of Ron Moore's revival of Battlestar Galactica (though not of the original, which most of us in the SF community still call Battlestar Ponderosa), but I hated the ending of that series even more than I hated the ending of Lost. Daniel [Martin's occasional collaborator Daniel Abraham] , meanwhile, prefers Babylon 5. He argues that B5 delivered on all the promises it made the viewer, that it paid off in the end with a strong finale and a resolution in keeping with all that went before. Whereas Battlestar Galactica started very strong, then seemed to lose its way.

George R.R. Martin hated BSG's finale even more than Lost's (syfy.com)

Quote

Unusual for the time, Babylon 5 was conceived as a "novel for television", with a defined beginning, middle, and end; in essence, each episode would be a single "chapter" of this "novel".[2] A coherent five-year story arc unfolds over five 22-episode seasons. Tie-in novels, comic books, and short stories were also developed to play a significant canonical part in the overall story.[3]

Quote

Major plotlines included Babylon 5's embroilment in a millennia-long cyclical conflict between ancient, powerful races, inter-race wars and their aftermaths, 

The Seasons are titled:

Season 1: Signs and Portents

Season 2: The Coming of Shadows

Season 3: Point of No Return

Season 4: No Surrender, No Retreat

Season 5: The Wheel of Fire

While watching the show, so many parallels popped out: including:

- the warriors of light vs the army of darkness

- the assassin's guild

- the Night Watch whose members are Rangers guarding against the coming of shadows and the long night.

The show focuses heavily on religion, politics and war.  It includes visions, dreams, a prophecy of The One.  I think Martin has been heavily influenced by this show. In season 1, episode one;  The first speaking part goes to a character called Arya. 

One characters says it's a game. A paper fantasy of names and property.

In episode 2  Soul Hunters: A character captures souls at the moment of death and preserves them circular objects.  The soul Hunters are immortal.

Another asks where it begins and where it ends.  Those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

A Minbari ritual of re-incarnation explains where it starts and where it ends.  It starts with death:

- will you follow me into the storm, into fire, into darkness, into death?  The Nine said yes.

-do this in the memory of the one who will follow you

- who will bring death couched in the promise of new life

- renewal disguised as defeat

- so it begins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Bit of a sidebar here.  I watched the scifi series Babylon 5 for the first and so many of the same themes in B5 pop-up in ASPOIAF;  I wondered if Martin had been a fan of the show.  It debuted in 1993 and ran for 5 seasons.  

George R.R. Martin hated BSG's finale even more than Lost's (syfy.com)

The Seasons are titled:

Season 1: Signs and Portents

Season 2: The Coming of Shadows

Season 3: Point of No Return

Season 4: No Surrender, No Retreat

Season 5: The Wheel of Fire

While watching the show, so many parallels popped out: including:

- the warriors of light vs the army of darkness

- the assassin's guild

- the Night Watch whose members are Rangers guarding against the coming of shadows and the long night.

The show focuses heavily on religion, politics and war.  It includes visions, dreams, a prophecy of The One.  I think Martin has been heavily influenced by this show. In season 1, episode one;  The first speaking part goes to a character called Arya. 

One characters says it's a game. A paper fantasy of names and property.

In episode 2  Soul Hunters: A character captures souls at the moment of death and preserves them circular objects.  The soul Hunters are immortal.

Another asks where it begins and where it ends.  Those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

A Minbari ritual of re-incarnation explains where it starts and where it ends.  It starts with death:

- will you follow me into the storm, into fire, into darkness, into death?  The Nine said yes.

-do this in the memory of the one who will follow you

- who will bring death couched in the promise of new life

- renewal disguised as defeat

- so it begins.

Have you finished watching the show? IIRC it has strong time travelling elements tied to the prophecies with Sinclair/Valen at the centre:

Spoiler

Sinclair steals the Babylon 4 station and travels a thousand year into the past to save the Mimbari from the Shadows. He is genetically altered to become Valen, the Minbari not born of Minbari of the prophecies.

Also, weren't the Nightwatch and the Homeguard human supremacist organisations that later become enemies of the Rangers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Have you finished watching the show? IIRC it has strong time travelling elements tied to the prophecies with Sinclair/Valen at the centre:

  Hide contents

Sinclair steals the Babylon 4 station and travels a thousand year into the past to save the Mimbari from the Shadows. He is genetically altered to become Valen, the Minbari not born of Minbari of the prophecies.

Also, weren't the Nightwatch and the Homeguard human supremacist organisations that later become enemies of the Rangers?

I did watch the whole, plus the movies and the spin-off Crusades.  I'm just going through a second time paying closer attention.  Yes, I noted the time travelling element.  Zathyros is one of my favorite characters so far next to Lando and G'Kar (sounds like H'gar) ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I did watch the whole, plus the movies and the spin-off Crusades.  I'm just going through a second time paying closer attention.  Yes, I noted the time travelling element.  Zathyros is one of my favorite characters so far next to Lando and G'Kar (sounds like H'gar) ;)

The bro-love&hate between Londo and G'Kar produced many great moments like this one in the elevator:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/14/2020 at 12:48 PM, Tucu said:

Have you finished watching the show? IIRC it has strong time travelling elements tied to the prophecies with Sinclair/Valen at the centre:

  Reveal hidden contents

Sinclair steals the Babylon 4 station and travels a thousand year into the past to save the Mimbari from the Shadows. He is genetically altered to become Valen, the Minbari not born of Minbari of the prophecies.

Also, weren't the Nightwatch and the Homeguard human supremacist organisations that later become enemies of the Rangers?

The more I delve into B5, the more convinced I am that Martin has repurposed many of the themes in B5.  What surprises me is that Martin has never commented on J. Michael Straczynski work and vise versa.  These two cannot be unaware of each other's work.  It's a black hole on the page.

The B5 box set which includes the B5 movies was released in 2004 and includes writer commentaries.  Straczynski said this in one commentary:

Quote

I come from a hodgepodge of experiences.  From theater, to television, to literature.  So I steal a lot from other sources. Someone said that good writers steal and bad writers borrow. That a bad writer just takes - we'll do Aliens in a submarine and it doesn't change that structure.

When you steal you make it your own, turn it upside down, re-crystalize it and send it back out again.  In B5 you can see war, literature, philosophy; transmuted to a different form.

Good writers steal, bad writers borrow. 

A good example of parallel themes between B5 and ASOIAF is the B5 movie River of Souls.  Soul hunters (with a third eye) harvest souls to preserve their memories. To make them immortal. This sounds a bit like the weirnet.  Except that these are 'living' souls, half of whom go insane and are filled with vengeance, towards the Soul Hunters who have trapped them in an existence that is a terror far worse than death.  This is an idea that Dany expresses when she fears  being tapped in a death that is worse than death. The other half of these souls are trying to contain them and stop the insane souls from being released from their prison and carrying out their vengeance on the ones who trapped them.

So when Aemon talks about ice preserving and fire consuming;  I think we are talking about souls.  Those that are trapped in ice and filled with vengeance; perhaps in the heart of winter; and those that are literally consumed by characters like Mel (soul eater) to renew their own life source..  So I suspect that the resolution will involve stopping ice and fire from consuming and preserving souls.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The more I delve into B5, the more convinced I am that Martin has repurposed many of the themes in B5.  What surprises me is that Martin has never commented on J. Michael Straczynski work and vise versa.  These two cannot be unaware of each other's work.  It's a black hole on the page.

The B5 box set which includes the B5 movies was released in 2004 and includes writer commentaries.  Straczynski said this in one commentary:

A good example of parallel themes between B5 and ASOIAF is the B5 movie River of Souls.  Soul hunters (with a third eye) harvest souls to preserve their memories. To make them immortal. This sounds a bit like the weirnet.  Except that these are 'living' souls, half of whom go insane and are filled with vengeance, towards the Soul Hunters who have trapped them in an existence that is a terror far worse than death.  This is an idea that Dany expresses when she fears  being tapped in a death that is worse than death. The other half of these souls are trying to contain them and stop the insane souls from being released from their prison and carrying out their vengeance on the ones who trapped them.

So when Aemon talks about ice preserving and fire consuming;  I think we are talking about souls.  Those that are trapped in ice and filled with vengeance; perhaps in the heart of winter; and those that are literally consumed by characters like Mel (soul eater) to renew their own life source..  So I suspect that the resolution will involve stopping ice and fire from consuming and preserving souls.

 

B5 and ASOIAF were developed almost in parallel. GRRM had a version of Bran I in 1991; by 1994 he had 200 pages of GoT and his famous 3 novel outline. The B5 pilot aired in 1993 and the Shadows make their first appearance in the first episode of season 1 in 1994. River of Souls aired in 1998.

ASOIAF borrows themes from GRRM earlier science-fiction work from the 70s and 80s. So we might be seen signs of cross-pollination

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...