Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

B5 and ASOIAF were developed almost in parallel. GRRM had a version of Bran I in 1991; by 1994 he had 200 pages of GoT and his famous 3 novel outline. The B5 pilot aired in 1993 and the Shadows make their first appearance in the first episode of season 1 in 1994. River of Souls aired in 1998.

ASOIAF borrows themes from GRRM earlier science-fiction work from the 70s and 80s. So we might be seen signs of cross-pollination

 

I think that's a good way to put it.  I don't see any similarities between characters.  Only similarities in thematic material.  I was surprised when Londo Molari warns about waking the dragon.

[LynnS]

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

The mists were so thick that only the nearest trees were visible; beyond them stood tall shadows and faint lights. Candles flickered beside the wandering path and back amongst the trees, pale fireflies floating in a warm grey soup. It felt like some strange underworld, some timeless place between the worlds, where the damned wandered mournfully for a time before finding their way down to whatever hell their sins had earned them. Are we all dead, then? Did Stannis come and kill us in our sleep? Is the battle yet to come, or has it been fought and lost?

Here and there a torch burned hungrily, casting its ruddy glow over the faces of the wedding guests. The way the mists threw back the shifting light made their features seem bestial, half-human, twisted. Lord Stout became a mastiff, old Lord Locke a vulture, Whoresbane Umber a gargoyle, Big Walder Frey a fox, Little Walder a red bull, lacking only a ring for his nose. Roose Bolton's own face was a pale grey mask, with two chips of dirty ice where his eyes should be.

Above their heads the trees were full of ravens, their feathers fluffed as they hunched on bare brown branches, staring down at the pageantry below. Maester Luwin's birds. Luwin was dead, and his maester's tower had been put to the torch, yet the ravens lingered. This is their home. Theon wondered what that would be like, to have a home.

 

What does it mean that Roose's face is a pale grey mask with two dirty chips of ice where his eyes should be?

Ramsey's eyes:

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A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

At the high table the Bastard of Bolton sat in his lord father's seat, drinking from his father's cup. Two old men shared the high table with him, and Reek knew at a glance that both were lords. One was gaunt, with flinty eyes, a long white beard, and a face as hard as a winter frost. His jerkin was a ragged bearskin, worn and greasy. Underneath he wore a ringmail byrnie, even at table. The second lord was thin as well, but twisted where the first was straight. One of his shoulders was much higher than the other, and he stooped over his trencher like a vulture over carrion. His eyes were grey and greedy, his teeth yellow, his forked beard a tangle of snow and silver. Only a few wisps of white hair still clung to his spotted skull, but the cloak he wore was soft and fine, grey wool trimmed with black sable and fastened at the shoulder with a starburst wrought in beaten silver.

Ramsay was clad in black and pink—black boots, black belt and scabbard, black leather jerkin over a pink velvet doublet slashed with dark red satin. In his right ear gleamed a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood. Yet for all the splendor of his garb, he remained an ugly man, big-boned and slope-shouldered, with a fleshiness to him that suggested that in later life he would run to fat. His skin was pink and blotchy, his nose broad, his mouth small, his hair long and dark and dry. His lips were wide and meaty, but the thing men noticed first about him were his eyes. He had his lord father's eyes—small, close-set, queerly pale. Ghost grey, some men called the shade, but in truth his eyes were all but colorless, like two chips of dirty ice.

At the sight of Reek, he smiled a wet-lipped smile. "There he is. My sour old friend." To the men beside him he said, "Reek has been with me since I was a boy. My lord father gave him to me as a token of his love."

 

 

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What does it mean that Roose's face is a pale grey mask with two dirty chips of ice where his eyes should be?

Ramsey's eyes:

 

Well, if Arya hadn't observed Roose's leeches filling with blood I'd say Roose was an undead creature like Coldhands, but maybe he's supposed to be a parallel to the Nights King of ancient days? What did Old Nan say, that some people said he was a Bolton? I know she settled on Stark and a brother to the Lord of Winterfell, but I think it was a similar situation to what it is now. Ramsay was a bastard named Snow before he was legitimized. As Snow he shared a last name with Jon Snow so technically you could say they were brothers in bastardy. Maybe the Nights King was a Bolton bastard and the Lord of Winterfell was a legitimized Stark bastard? It would be the opposite of what it is now.

[alienarea]

28 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Well, if Arya hadn't observed Roose's leeches filling with blood I'd say Roose was an undead creature like Coldhands, but maybe he's supposed to be a parallel to the Nights King of ancient days? What did Old Nan say, that some people said he was a Bolton? I know she settled on Stark and a brother to the Lord of Winterfell, but I think it was a similar situation to what it is now. Ramsay was a bastard named Snow before he was legitimized. As Snow he shared a last name with Jon Snow so technically you could say they were brothers in bastardy. Maybe the Nights King was a Bolton bastard and the Lord of Winterfell was a legitimized Stark bastard? It would be the opposite of what it is now.

Not sure where I want to go with this but the Boltons are imitating the Stark warging by wearing skins. Is Roose imitating White Walkers by leeching, i.e. aiming to be with as little blood as necessary?

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Not sure where I want to go with this but the Boltons are imitating the Stark warging by wearing skins. Is Roose imitating White Walkers by leeching, i.e. aiming to be with as little blood as necessary?

The real mistery is when was Roose replaced. He used to be an angry and brusque man. AGoT Eddard VIII

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Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat

AGoT Bran VI:

Quote

Robb seemed half a stranger to Bran now, transformed, a lord in truth, though he had not yet seen his sixteenth name day. Even their father's bannermen seemed to sense it. Many tried to test him, each in his own way. Roose Bolton and Robett Glover both demanded the honor of battle command, the first brusquely, the second with a smile and a jest.

(half joking)

[alienarea]

On 12/16/2020 at 9:06 PM, Tucu said:

The real mistery is when was Roose replaced.

In (my) theory, the Faceless Men should be Team Ice, wanting to end life. If Rose were to stay loyal to the Starks, the "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" remains. That would protect from Winter. So Rose was replaced to have Ramsay rising. A Ghost in Winterfell? Faceless men are like ghosts.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

In (my) theory, the Faceless Men should be Team Ice, wanting to end life. If Rose were to stay loyal to the Starks, the "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" remains. That would protect from Winter. So Rose was replaced to have Ramsay rising. A Ghost in Winterfell? Faceless men are like ghosts.

I see the Faceless Men more like a part of a team Darkness preserving life from a Fire&Blood hell. I love this quote from Arya in ACOK:

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Arya rolled head first into the tunnel and dropped five feet. She got dirt in her mouth but she didn’t care, the taste was fine. The taste was mud and water and worms and life. Under the earth the air was cool and dark. Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For who, she could not say.

 

[Melifeather]

Happy holidays everyone!

[LadySage]

Yule tidings, my 'ole Heretic pals... 

[alienarea]

Merry Christmas, heretic

[Mace Cooterian]

A very Merry Christmas to all Heretics and wishing that your 2021 bucket list ends up with the following:

• Freedom from COVID.
• A hard bound copy of The Winds of Winter before this time next year.

A special note to @Black Crow.  You've created a space that we can share thoughts about the world that George has created.  It has been a great learning experience to follow many of the posters and to be in awe of their talents and writing prowess. 

[Black Crow]

Greetings to all as we are about to say goodbye to the year that has gone and look forward to what is to come, and here I'll echo Mace Cooterian's sentiments, both anent what we all want to come in the new year and about what we have done - together 

[Black Crow]

On 12/21/2020 at 1:19 PM, Tucu said:

Arya rolled head first into the tunnel and dropped five feet. She got dirt in her mouth but she didn’t care, the taste was fine. The taste was mud and water and worms and life. Under the earth the air was cool and dark. Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For who, she could not say.

Yes it is a rather stark [no pun] contrast between Fire and sweet Mother Earth. While the latter does embrace death it also leads to renewal, while Fire brings only destruction and cleanses all life.

As the old Domestos ad used to put it, it kills all germs - dead.

[LadySage]

Now it begins. Now it ends. Happy 2021 Heretics!

[Black Crow]

Happy New year one and all. Hope springs eternal 

[Melifeather]

Happy New Year! 

[alienarea]

Happy New Year 

Stay safe and healthy!

[LynnS]

Came across this odd bit.  We've talked about the direwolf eyes before.  Summer's eyes are described yellow or gold like the sun.  Here they are described as slitted like the COTF:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran II

The wolf did as he was told. Bran scratched him behind the ears, then turned away, jumped, grabbed a low branch, and pulled himself up. He was halfway up the tree, moving easily from limb to limb, when the wolf got to his feet and began to howl.

Bran looked back down. His wolf fell silent, staring up at him through slitted yellow eyes. A strange chill went through him. He began to climb again. Once more the wolf howled. "Quiet," he yelled. "Sit down. Stay. You're worse than Mother." The howling chased him all the way up the tree, until finally he jumped off onto the armory roof and out of sight.

The rooftops of Winterfell were Bran's second home. His mother often said that Bran could climb before he could walk. Bran could not remember when he first learned to walk, but he could not remember when he started to climb either, so he supposed it must be true.

 

 

[Tucu]

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Came across this odd bit.  We've talked about the direwolf eyes before.  Summer's eyes are described yellow or gold like the sun.  Here they are described as slitted like the COTF:

 

I think it is not a reference to slit pupils but to the expression in the wolf eyes. GRRM repeats this when Robb&Co meet Ryman Frey at the Twins before the Red Wedding:

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They halted to let their hosts come to them. Robb's banner drooped on its staff, and the steady sound of rainfall mingled with the rush of the swollen Green Fork on their right. Grey Wind edged forward, tail stiff, watching through slitted eyes of dark gold. When the Freys were a half-dozen yards away Catelyn heard him growl, a deep rumble that seemed almost one with rush of the river. Robb looked startled. "Grey Wind, to me. To me!"

 

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think it is not a reference to slit pupils but to the expression in the wolf eyes. GRRM repeats this when Robb&Co meet Ryman Frey at the Twins before the Red Wedding:

 

I actually think it's more than just a half closed eye, at least not in the shade of the godswood. 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Fire burns them. Fire is always hungry."

That was not Arya's voice, nor any child's. It was a woman's voice, high and sweet, with a strange music in it like none that he had ever heard and a sadness that he thought might break his heart. Bran squinted, to see her better. It was a girl, but smaller than Arya, her skin dappled like a doe's beneath a cloak of leaves. Her eyes were queer—large and liquid, gold and green, slitted like a cat's eyes. No one has eyes like that. Her hair was a tangle of brown and red and gold, autumn colors, with vines and twigs and withered flowers woven through it.

 

Martin is using slitted in a very specific way.  I think Bran senses something beyond Summer's normal eye, since they cannot be slitted liked the COTF.  This is akin to Arya seeing Nymeria's eyes like gold coins, a reference to the FM.  Or Shaggy Dog's eyes like green fire.