Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e

[LynnS]

On 10/27/2020 at 3:35 PM, Frey family reunion said:

But reincarnating someone was not a thing that Thoros (or any Red Priest) could do.  After all Thoros thought he was just giving a symbolic funeral ritual to Beric, he never expected him to come back to life.  

I'm starting to wonder if you can summon a god to intervene and under what or conditions or circumstances.  Thinking back on Hodor during the fight with the wights;  Bran hearing Hodor's plaintive cry for help and suddenly finding himself inside a supercharged Hodor .This occurs without any conscious thought about skinchanging Hodor to bring it about.  I think Hodor was able to summon Bran because a bond of love exists between them.  This is different from Bran taking Hodor against his will at Queenscrown.  I think this is Hodor wide open and actively joining with Bran.  Bran-Hodor is fearless, supercharged, a completely different experience from Queenscrown. 

There is a bond of love between Beric and Thoros as well. The first time Thoros resurrects Beric he is filled with grief and his prayer comes from the heart.  I think this is the difference and like Hodot summoning Bran, Thoros is in some way able to summon a god, to power-up for lack of a better term.

The business of Beric going to the Isle of Faces, presumably to commune with the gods; may have something to do with his decision to pass the torch to Catelyn.

On a side note;  the Hodor-Bran joining, mentioned above, might inform a Howland-Bran joining, as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  We are given a look at Bran's internal experience, not just an onlookers external view.

[Black Crow]

Anent the Gods there is a very old SSM stating that there will be no interventions by Gods walking on Westeros' Green and Pleasant Land. In the context as I recall he was certainly swatting down the notion of a personal appearance by R'hllor, but I'm also inclined to interpret it more broadly and that a resolution of the story will be down to the human character

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Anent the Gods there is a very old SSM stating that there will be no interventions by Gods walking on Westeros' Green and Pleasant Land. In the context as I recall he was certainly swatting down the notion of a personal appearance by R'hllor, but I'm also inclined to interpret it more broadly and that a resolution of the story will be down to the human character

My interpretation of that SSM was that there would be no god of the type with which we are familiar walking off the pages of the bible. In this story, the gods are characters like Bran. who are given god-like or supernatural powers.   What is done with those powers matters and resolution comes down to human character.  The reason Martin calls the weirwoods heart trees. 

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My interpretation of that SSM was that there would be no god of the type with which we are familiar walking off the pages of the bible. In this story, the gods are characters like Bran. who are given god-like or supernatural powers.   What is done with those powers matters and resolution comes down to human character.  The reason Martin calls the weirwoods heart trees. 

We're not to far apart on this one, but while Bran and others may have powers, I think that ultimately those powers will need to be curbed if not entirely defeated

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

We're not to far apart on this one, but while Bran and others may have powers, I think that ultimately those powers will need to be curbed if not entirely defeated

Yes, at the end of all things, the ring must be thrown back into the fires and unmade.

[Frey family reunion]

On 10/28/2020 at 8:05 AM, Melifeather said:

Getting back to @Frey family reunion's idea that Thoros's ritual worked because it drew on ice magic and turning the focus a bit, blowing flames into Beric's lungs is a mock reenactment of transferring a "living flame" into the corpse, thereby raising it as a thrall - a servant.

I don't think it's ice magic.  Ice magic was certainly at play in the creation of the White Walkers, and in the animation of the wights.  Also Beric and Cat aren't thralls, they may be servants of the Old Gods, but they otherwise seem to have a degree of free will.

The reincarnations we see involving Beric, and Cat, seem to involve a three step process:  physical injury, submersion, and then an introduction of flame into their lungs.  

And noticeably it is the flame that seems to be missing from the Drowned God's rituals on Pyke.  Even though historically flame seems to be a component of their legends involving, the Drowned God, the Grey King, and Nagga.  Which makes Victarion's meeting with the Red Priest so interesting, religions involving drowning and fire are reintroduced on his boat.

The question I have is what exactly is a "living flame"?  On first glance we are supposed to assume that Nagga was a dragon.  But the color of the bones are off.  They should be black, not white.  Which brings me back to the theory that Nagga's bones are actually petrified weirwoods.  So then if the living flame came from Nagga, then perhaps we should think of the Weirwoods as being involved in any magic surrounding a "living flame".

[Frey family reunion]

Just riffing for a moment.  There are two legends involving the Grey King and fire.  One is that he brought fire to Pyke by goading the Storm God into hurling a bolt of lightning at him.  The second legend involves the Grey King making Nagga's "living flame" his thrall.  

Beric's whose sigil is a lightning bolt, and who'se lord is both a king and a Storm Lord, is stabbed, then drowned, and had fire introduced into his lungs.  Beric did a funeral rite that he has apparently done many times before, and presumably also performed with other fallen members of their party.  Yet only Beric rose.

Perhaps there is something about Beric himself that transformed the mundane flame that Thoros breathed inside of him, into a "living flame".  A flame capable of reincarnating.  This living flame is then later transferred into Lady Stoneheart, who also had the necessary prerequisite death by physical injury and then submersion.  

Which takes me back North now.  Both Beric and Melisandre seem to have one trait in common, their blood isn't normal.  It's black and it appears magical.  Melisandre's blood helps create a shadow assassin, while Beric's blood lights his sword on fire.  I wonder if Melisandre's current state is somehow similar to Beric's.  That she too is a fire wight, kept alive by a "living flame".

If so, then my guess is that if Jon Snow is truly dead, then he meets the first requirement of a resurection.  Death by physical injury.  If Jon Snow is then kept in a frozen state for a period of time, he may end up meeting the second stage, a submersion of sorts.  

If so, then perhaps Melisandre will breathe life into Jon, thus transferring her "living flame" into Jon, and thus sacrificing herself.  

[LynnS]

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While this one still has a chance to appear in the books series, the fact that it hasn't even been mentioned in the books or shown in the series means this is unlikely. In an early letter to his publisher, George RR Martin explained his broader ideas with where the book series would go. In this letter, George RR Martin says "from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where... the inhumane Others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn prepare to... extinguish everything that we would call life.

It is unclear as to what the Neverborn are or what George RR Martin saw them as being. However, Secrets of the Citadel on YouTube has a fantastic video explaining potential theories surrounding the concept

 

https://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones-ideas-george-rr-martin-abandoned/

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[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps there is something about Beric himself that transformed the mundane flame that Thoros breathed inside of him, into a "living flame".  A flame capable of reincarnating.  This living flame is then later transferred into Lady Stoneheart, who also had the necessary prerequisite death by physical injury and then submersion.

I like this idea.  The priests of the Drowned Men re-enacting a drowning with breathing life back into the corpse resonates with the resurrection of Beric and LSH by fire.  The anomaly is Patchface and his world of under-the-sea. 

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I like this idea.  The priests of the Drowned Men re-enacting a drowning with breathing life back into the corpse resonates with the resurrection of Beric and LSH by fire.  The anomaly is Patchface and his world of under-the-sea. 

Yea, I was thinking about Patchface as being the outlier here.  

ETA: One thing about Parchface is that he appears to age.  He washed up on shore as a boy, but presumably he continues to age, and no longer appears as a boy.

I do wonder if Beric could age had he survived, or if Stoneheart can age?  There is a theory that Melisandre is far older than she appears.

Also no breath of life from either flame or old fashion cpr for Patches.  According to the tale they assumed he was a corpse, until he spit up the water on his own.

[Black Crow]

38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

While this one still has a chance to appear in the books series, the fact that it hasn't even been mentioned in the books or shown in the series means this is unlikely. In an early letter to his publisher, George RR Martin explained his broader ideas with where the book series would go. In this letter, George RR Martin says "from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where... the inhuman Others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn prepare to... extinguish everything that we would call life.

It is unclear as to what the Neverborn are or what George RR Martin saw them as being. However, Secrets of the Citadel on YouTube has a fantastic video explaining potential theories surrounding the concept

I don't think its unclear at all, because it harks back to what I was saying about the apparent contradictions in Mormont's fearing the return of the Others while not overly concerned anent the White Walkers

The Neverborn are the White Walkers, unleashed by the inhuman Others, aka all the Powers of Hell and not unconnected withthe trees. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The Neverborn are the White Walkers, unleashed by the inhuman Others, aka all the Powers of Hell and not unconnected withthe trees.

I did watch the youtube link provided and it explored links to Craster, Stark blood etc., and suggested that Craster's boys are the white walkers and that perhaps there is one among them that is so powerful, he never should have been born.  Along with all of Craster's sons in the general sense that incestuous relations should never happen.

I also found a reference in the Wheel of Time Wiki, that the Neverborn are called wolves, among their many names. 

 

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I   

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I did watch the youtube link provided and it explored links to Craster, Stark blood etc., and suggested that Craster's boys are the white walkers and that perhaps there is one among them that is so powerful, he never should have been born.  Along with all of Craster's sons in the general sense that incestuous relations should never happen.

I also found a reference in the Wheel of Time Wiki, that the Neverborn are called wolves, among their many names.    

I'd be very wary of the bolded passage as its clearly based on the Mummers' Nights King, who doesn't exist in the book

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Also Beric and Cat aren't thralls, they may be servants of the Old Gods, but they otherwise seem to have a degree of free will.

We actually don’t know that. Thoros could be controlling them even without realizing that they are acting out his unconscious desires. You can hear the resignation in his voice:

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

"And justice? Can that be found in caves?"

"Justice." Thoros smiled wanly. "I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king's men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all."

"Are you saying you are monsters?"

”I am saying we are human. You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began. Some were . . . less good, shall we say? Though there are those who say it does not matter how a man begins, but only how he ends. I suppose it is the same for women." The priest got to his feet. "Our time together is at an end, I fear. I hear my brothers coming. Our lady sends for you."

 

(Further down in the text)

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“She is," said Thoros of Myr. "The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose."

(I have to switch to my laptop...)

Thoros said Beric transferred his "flame of life" to Catelyn's corpse, but Thoros breathed that flame of life into Beric in the first place. Thoros is also afraid of Lady Stoneheart. He said, "May the Lord of Light protect us...." I think he's praying for protection from her.

I think many readers view Coldhands as a thrall or servant of Bloodraven, but he was also able to make independent decisions that saved lives, but at the end of the day he was still completing his mission to bring Bran safely to the cave.
 

 

[alienarea]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Of the two, I'd go for the eyes. The implication is that trees are wakening

 

That is too easy for my crackpot mind ;)

If Bran hadn't falled he might have taken Arya's place and things might have ended worse?

Why is Jaqen in the black cells and how is it connected to Robert's tapestries?

Is Quaithe a projection of Lyanna?

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'd be very wary of the bolded passage as its clearly based on the Mummers' Nights King, who doesn't exist in the book

Yet he existed at one time.  I'm not expecting to see the NK return in his original form but someone else to take his place.  I'm guessing Jon Snow will fill that bill.  We still don't know Jon's powers but Bran and Arya are developing some formidable magic.  Arya can warg Nymeria from across the Narrow Sea.  She can skinchange a cat and wants to learn to fly.

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As Arya crossed the yard to the bathhouse, she spied a raven circling down toward the rookery, and wondered where it had come from and what message it carried. Might be it's from Robb, come to say it wasn't true about Bran and Rickon. She chewed on her lip, hoping. If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to.

[LynnS]

Stupid computer...

As for the NK and the strange records that Sam finds; I'm going to say that not only were records of the NK redacted, the records before that were as well;  IF there were written records at all.  Sam's roll of LC's seems like a fabrication to me. 

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, alienarea said:

That is too easy for my crackpot mind

If Bran hadn't falled he might have taken Arya's place and things might have ended worse?

Why is Jaqen in the black cells and how is it connected to Robert's tapestries?

Is Quaithe a projection of Lyanna?

I don't think so.  Theon's gory dream.  If this is a tableau, what are we being shown?

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A Clash of Kings - Theon V

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon woke with a scream, startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room. When his guards burst in with drawn swords, he ordered them to bring him the maester. By the time Luwin arrived rumpled and sleepy, a cup of wine had steadied Theon's hands, and he was feeling ashamed of his panic. "A dream," he muttered, "that was all it was. It meant nothing."

 

We're being shown everyone who has died because of treachery and how they are paired or grouped together. She is paired with her Brandon because as Ned says their wolf blood led to their deaths.  Lyanna is a casualty of war, her dress is spattered with blood because it's believed that Robert went to war because of her.  It's the innocent who bear the atrocities of war and it's Lyanna who is painted with the  blood and gore of Robert's Rebellion.  But she isn't the cause.

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

 

I think that Tyrion is a slayer of lies in this story.  The Citadel or at least Pycelle sees himself in the business of Kingmaking by any means and an ally of the Lannisters.

It's curious that Lyanna is wearing a laurel of blue roses.  In Norwegian middle ages, maidens wore a laurel of flowers to denote their status as unmarried.  When they married, they were given an actual crown by their husbands.  In the dream, she is depicted as a maiden of Winterfell, not a married woman.

Rhaegar doesn't crown her either.  He places the laurel on her lap.  My tinfoil tells me that he knew something about her future, Perhaps something he learned from the GoHH on one of his solo trips to Summerhall where he traded songs for dreams? That she would not wear a crown.

I think he gives her the title of QoL&B because the Mystery Knight was her champion.  He would have discovered her confrontation with the squires and how they dishonored themselves and their lords. ,  He is a version of the Arthurian Tale of the Green Knight who tests and judges other knights.  I don't think Rhaegar can ignore the Mystery Knight's judgement to teach your knights honor.  This is the thing that really pisses Aerys off and it's the beginning of the end, so to speak.

To the onlookers, Rhaegar's action only goes half-way.  Some think he insults his wife, Barriston thinks that Ashara should  have been given the crown, if only he had been a better knight.  Some think it's a declaration of romantic love.  But all the smiles died.  Aerys would feel judged because his own Kingsguard  turn a blind eye to all his outrageous behavior.   This wasn't just a hedge knight, it was a knight of the old gods passing judgement. 

     

[LynnS]

Bran wants to teach his siblings to fly:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

Odd that Bran knows that Robb is dead but thinks he could teach him to fly. Grumkins (faceless men) are mentioned.

Arya wants to fly higher than the moon:

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A Clash of Kings - Arya X

As Arya crossed the yard to the bathhouse, she spied a raven circling down toward the rookery, and wondered where it had come from and what message it carried. Might be it's from Robb, come to say it wasn't true about Bran and Rickon. She chewed on her lip, hoping. If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to.

 Sounds something like Bran's coma dream.  

 

 

 

[alienarea]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

22 hours ago, alienarea said:

Is Quaithe a projection of Lyanna?

I don't think so. 

I totally made that up just because :)

I think GRRM is totally making things up as well to keep us puzzled.